 Hello, good afternoon. My name is Peter Sharoshi. I'm the director of the rights reporter foundation and the editor of the drug reporter website and This is our live video interview from the international AIDS conference in Amsterdam and today I have two guest speakers Dina who is actually living here in Amsterdam and an activist a sex worker activists You also work for the international committee on the rights of sex workers in Europe and My other guest speaker is Lucas Stevenson who is based in Glasgow in Scotland and works for the international committee on the rights of sex workers in Europe so Here at the AIDS conference what I see is that sex worker activists are not so happy So it seems that you are not very satisfied how things are going So can you just tell me like why do you protest? What do you protest against because you had a big march on Tuesday through the city Sex workers were protesting. So what why are you protesting for? There are two narratives in this way there is a narrative of being at the international AIDS conference and being a key populations Defined a group within the conference yet. There is almost no representation of our people within the group conference So there are maybe two or three like real panels in the conference has been with several sex workers in it, but not like it was really a high Level of a tendency so we are really protesting against that because I think if you are a key population and They define you to be like one of the most Important groups that you should invest and you also need to have more agenda. So this is really a lack of Organizing I think Which is very bad when it comes to the solutions And then on the on the other hand what we all face is like a stigma Discriminations we have like a lot of things have to do with policies worldwide Where we are So this was one of the parts of the action that we can all globally Affiliate with so that we feel like we want to show that our resilience and that we are Workers and that we always have been existing and that we will even if laws worldwide are made against us so and and even when people are excluding us from programs and and Moments to speak Yes, I think there's many issues Around sex work at this conference is my first AIDS conference and on a very basic level I'm pretty shocked by level of exclusion of sex workers I know for lots of people there would be why you protesting, you know, you had a sex worker on the opening ceremony There are some workshops you have a networking zone But if you look at the numbers, you know, there's around like 18,000 people participating in this conference And there's maybe like a hundred and fifty sex workers Attending it and most of them had to pay their own way to come here There's been so few scholarship for sex workers to attend and that really means that sex worker I just not here like our issues are not really been considered and I think it's wider than the international AIDS Conference we see that at the national level with the HIV movement Most HIV movement although they are said include sex workers Although they respect sex workers as workers, etc in comparison to other movements that completely exclude us They will include us in a way that is so tokenistic that actually nothing is done for sex workers And you see that globally the rise of sex workers are being violated every day We're not going towards more rights for sex workers more enabling legal environment in the opposite We're seeing more criminalization from like FOSTA and SESTA in the US where online advertisement is forbidden Swedish model in 10, 11 countries in Europe and the response is so limited All we all the HIV movements want to talk to us about is PREP Like it's really shocking that we can have a whole session about criminalization of sex work And the main question we're going to be asked is about PREP how to increase demand for PREP for sex workers I'm not dismissing PREP. It's an important tool and sex workers who want PREP should have access to PREP But at the moment how can you talk to us about this when we're talking about criminalization of sex work? So the Netherlands has a reputation that has a very liberal policy on sex work But as a sex worker staying in or living in Amsterdam, are you happy with the current system the current legislation? No, we're not absolutely not the thing is it looks very legalized So you can't work in a brothel or you can't work in a window, but this is only for a very exclusive Population part. This is for cisgender women accessible for the rest male sex worker strengths women have no license place to work So where are they working from from their houses or from from the streets? And then if you work from your house you will be evicted So it's not a good situation in the Netherlands and as long as we cannot speak about this for example This kind of conferences I just came from a conference board where I could speak on this narrative and this and the room was almost empty So it really it's really shocking to me that When you are visiting the Netherlands and you want to hear something about sex work There's like maybe even a lack of interest in the in the people who are willing to attend and listening to narratives that are really important So let's talk about the kind of other side of the story with the Swedish model You already mentioned. Can you explain us? What is the Swedish model and what are the new trends because I've heard that it's like spreading across Europe So what we call the Swedish model is a model where technically at least on paper the sex worker is not criminalized But the client is it started in 1999 in Sweden and it's now been implemented in so Sweden, Norway, Iceland, France Republic of Ireland, Ireland Probably forgetting a couple as well as in country like Serbia and Lithuania at least in Europe But often what we see that the sex workers are still criminalized Either directly like in Serbia and Lithuania or through municipal bylaws And when you think that the majority of sex workers in Europe are migrant sex workers, there is still like huge Migration rates, you know and deportation of sex workers of migrant sex workers And it's really problematic. We've seen France recently or in Ireland That is an increase of violence against sex workers Increase of HIV infection as well Because what happens is when you criminalize clients of sex workers, you don't give more power to sex workers You don't give another choice to sex worker You actually often take away the only livelihood option for sex workers So sex workers have to continue setting sex but in worse condition with less client Therefore it increased their poverty and it reduced their their capacities for example to negotiate condoms So we have many colleagues who now have to have unprotected sex with clients Because they don't have enough clients and if the clients say well, it looks like I'm the only client tonight I want to thank you for 20 euros and it used to be 50 euros Well, what do you say? Either you don't eat tomorrow or you accept 20 euros for unprotected sex And that's such a huge issue for our communities and it's barely represented and it I don't think People really understand how serious the crisis is for sex workers in many countries This debate on sex work is so much polarized, you know with this radical feminist approach, which is like kind of paternalistic And then the sex workers So do you see any possibility for dialogue between these two positions or is there any possibility to build bridges? Have you have any positive experiences with that? I think the first bridge is already that there are a lot of sex workers are female and if we are excluded by this Immersympatory movement, it's really weird because they say like to me for example, I'm a trans woman You're not a real woman Then you have others that are just excluded because they do sex work So I think there is already something missing if I mean, I think we bridge quite and quite a lot We always try and want to have collaborative governance structures But the other parties are not really willing to listen to us so then it's like screaming and running into a wall that actually will not Will not open up at any any way. So I think it is extremely important from humanitarian Perspective that the the rights the basic rights of people of human rights really need to be made applicable to people within the sex work community and That is a global thing that needs to change So if we always try to bridge up to parties like talk about our safety talk about what we Faced due to laws for example, and you are excluded by groups of people who only think like we want to fight for our own cause And we leave a whole group behind of women. It's like I think it's ridiculous So I we do enough effort, and I really hope that those people will consider and think and if not other people who needs to Lobby for for them to be able so that we are able to do this all together Well, I Think well, you need to have hope anyway that at least people will change their mind And it is possible like you know we with ICI we see with the European network of sex or project We we do lots of public events So we try to with limited resources and we really try to change people's minds And so we recently organized a big event in in Brussels I mean recently a couple of years ago on specifically on migration and sex work And we had around like eight migrant sex workers from different region who are now working in Europe talking about their situations and in the room you had people who come from a very somewhere coming from like a Very strong religious background. They're working for anti-trafficking organization like religious anti-trafficking organization, and you also had women from a Feminist organization anti-sex work and what was really interesting is that at the end of the speech they listen There is respectfully they ask some questions Maybe a bit less respectfully best deal. There was dialogue and at the end of this session The woman coming from the religious network, you know quite fundamentalist religious network They came and they apologized to us They say we've been pushing for the criminalization of client and for the first time today I realized that maybe we are wrong and we did more harm than good by pushing for that But the woman from the feminist network Hadn't changed her mind and I think Ideology can be like so deeply ingrained in people that they need to have lots of exposure and to actually really meet my Grand sex worker sex worker trans sex worker to listen to the the stories of sex worker to start changing their their mind But I think it's possible and it will happen So migrants sex workers are often labeled as hard to reach group and today I Listened to the speech of David Melbourne and it was brilliant and he said that don't call us hard hard to reach just because you don't know how to reach us and What what are your recommendations to to those services has services across Europe who want to reach migrant sex workers Well, I think we have always proven a sexual community to have knowledge about what's going on in the field What's the going on with our colleagues? So for me, it's not difficult and they're there easily to reach. It's only that we need to have safe spaces that are That that have money that have that can organize things This is the main thing if we have for example an office where we can have people come in for information or come in for medical checkups or you know, and if it's run by sex worker let's Groups then you do have those people in because they feel secured is safe enough to step in make appointments with you They're not immediately if it's it's like a governmental one because we are just afraid of everything We see when you go to the police to when you when you want to pay your taxes, for example The way we are stigmatized so we don't need that. So if you really make a point where you have sex workers let Offices for example where people can come in we can also make direct redirect people to for example health care or Social workers, but the important thing is that the people come to us and they know to find us so If those Organizations want to invest they need to invest in sex worker let's groups and then and then for sure people are no no longer difficult to reach Yeah, exactly what what Dina was saying is that it's really proven that Community led services have a better reach to in the community Partly because sex workers know each other. They know where we work, you know in different work setting as well And there's been like really some good examples of organization For example accepted stay in France, which is a migrant trans sex worker organization And they focus not just on sex work But on issues relating to like access to documentation, you know HIV services, etc And they really have a strong network of women trans women a lot of them from from Latin America but also from Asia or the part of the world and who are able to access services there and I think if you don't if the organization is not fully led by sex workers You need to hire peer like members of the community to do outreach to do services for example, you know Many Romanian women work in the sex industry in Western Europe and they need to be able to access services So you need to provide information in Romanian and even better if the person who goes in the streets giving a flyer or condom Etc is a Romanian herself Romanian sex worker herself and I think this is really possible I mean it's proven it's documented in the sex worker implementation tool is recommendation from WHO and the UN aid But a national level often what we see is that it's not implemented There's barely any funding for sex workers program sex worker led programs and that needs to change What about the LGBTQ community is is the sex work addressed appropriately in that communities? How do you feel about that? Well, I work pretty cross Reference it so I'm also co-chair of TGU and I just recently stepped in that position And I see that for example within TGU. There is no Agenda on sex work. So there is an agenda They made researches and did things but there's no position So there's not an board member Dedicated with a task for Europe on sex work. So this is already where it lacks. We need to focus us within our communities LGBT As well on this Agenda it's it's major important because as you see from here it's a key population that can that can go into all kind of things and As long as there's this stigma about sex work within our LGBT community that we do not dare to speak up that we do Exist within our communities that it's a part of LGBT identity even Then it will not go Come to the better. So it's really important that we start to change our movements and be more open and transparent and include groups that are left behind Yeah, I think that's definitely one of big issue for the the European Network as well is to see how how to challenge LGBT movement I think definitely the LGBT movement in Europe But globally has failed trans people and sex workers and you have to remember to remember that You know the Stonewall riots were started by trans women many of them sex workers Many of them trans women of color and now the LGBT movement as or LGBT movement have changed so much that like it's really led by like White cis men who have no solidarity for trans women for migrant and sex workers The whole agenda has been around like marriage equality, which is very important and thank you very much for activists who fought for marriage equality I'm happily married and thanks for them for fighting for that But at the same time this has been done on By excluding trans women trans people and sex workers we think some change So with with ICR we see the European Network We've been working with transgender Europe more recently with the ILGA in Europe the main LGBT network who now both networks Trans and LGBT have a position on sex work supporting decriminalization But it really took lots of time and resources and energy to arrive to this situation So what we want to see is for all the LGBT organization in Europe and globally to take a position on sex work to include sex worker LGBT sex workers and to really actively engage with sex workers and We often say like always, you know like but also like trans organization We see some trans organization excluding trans sex workers in this kind of quest for respectability It's like oh now we're fighting for laws to be respected as trans people So we can't really have a position on sex work because you know We might have a fight with feminist abolitionists that we need like support in parliament and it's not just theoretical I see that in many countries in Europe where the trans organization the main trans organization as they become more professionalized Exclude trans sex workers and that also is very problematic and hopefully will change Were there any like inspiring experience here at the conference for you or message you will take back from this conference anything to highlight? Well for me, it was very special of course to do the opening ceremony But on the other hand what I also said I don't want to be here as a window dressing And as a token so for my community, and that's why I speak up in every session that I'm invited that actually We are really excluded from the from the discourse and and as well like if we Look at the future of this of this International AIDS conference the next one will be held in San Francisco in San Francisco sex workers cannot enter Muslim people cannot enter drug use people cannot enter So you have a whole group of people that you immediately exclude from this Conference to be present and to talk about the their establishments or what they have achieved within the within those years and it's extremely problematic, I think So again, this is one of the things that made me deeply saddened to see that This is like something that we all the time as sex workers have to address over and over again to fight for our rights But as well to fight for our own issues such as HIV So, I mean, I think this is really staggering and I'm hoping that we as as a community can step up and really tell that narrative But if you exclude people from conferences that are so important for the well-being of our communities You're really not doing a good job I think one Exciting moment that happened for me was the the trans sex worker workshop So we organized between the sex worker networking zone and the trans sex working zone a workshop led by trans sex workers and I think that was the only one that was specifically by and for trans sex workers and It's a crucial issue I think if we talk about the LGBT movement, but if the age movement LGBT movement feminist movement exclude trans sex workers They are really failing in their tasks like as you might know You know in the last few years around like one thousand five hundred trans people were murdered and the vast majority 65% of them were sex workers You cannot have a LGBT movement or HIV movement that ignore the issue of violence against trans women trans sex workers So it was really exciting to be part of like organizing this workshop And and this morning was a lot of fun to interrupt the flame of inclusion That's a new tradition for the AIDS conference. They have this flame of inclusion that goes from one city to the other So it was lit up this morning in Amsterdam and it's gonna make its way to San Francisco And it's unbelievable that it don't see the irony of calling this the flame of inclusion Where the next sex worker conference the next AIDS conference is gonna be in San Francisco But you know that still has a ban of drug user on sex worker The Muslim ban as well. I mean it's pretty shocking that you know Especially coming from Amsterdam that really has an issue with racism, you know With the increase of like Islamophobia and racism in Europe, you know from Hungary to Amsterdam to France to the UK That people can still talk about having a conference in in Trump America Where there is a Muslim ban and a ban on many key population and the fact that this is not on the agenda of the majority of The conference who seems to be very happy to be able to have you know weak paid by the organ HIV organization in San Francisco Is really saddening really I think every single person here should realize what it means for this key population And Muslim people like people from these Muslim countries which are banned that the next conferences in San Francisco and he shouldn't he really shouldn't happen there Thank you so much Dina and Luca for being here and I wish you luck for your work. It's truly important Thank you very much. Thank you for those who are watching us