 computer. All right guys, Larry, I'm going to give you the five count. Five, four, three, two. Hello and welcome to the Digital Freethought Radio Hour at WOZO Radio 103.9 LPFM right here in Knoxville, Tennessee. We're recording this on Sunday morning to, I'm sorry, February 20th, 2022. I'm Larry Rhodes or a doubter five. And as usual, we have our co-host Wombat on the line with us. Hello Wombat. The devil has gotten me. I've somehow hung out with a bunch of atheists. Help me. Help me, Jesus. Help me. Thank you. He's got all of us really. On our guests today are George Brown, the two and a half from Brooklyn. Hello, originally from Brooklyn. Yeah. Hello. In the Bible Belt right now. That's right. And we have two new guests with us today. And we have Joe Sky. Hello, Joe. Hi. And you're from Texas. Is that right? Currently. And Salud, welcome to the show. Where are you from? I'm from Ohio, close to West Virginia. So right around that area. Real good. Digital Freethought Radio Hour is a talk radio show about atheism, free thought, rational thought, humanism, and the sciences. And conversely, we'll also talk about religion, religious faith, God's holy books, and superstition. And if you get the feeling that you're the only non-believer in town, well, you just not. In Knoxville, here in the Bible Belt, we have a group of over a thousand atheists. And we'll tell you more about that group after the mid-show break. Wombat, where are we going today? We're going to be talking about is church, just adult daycare, which I'm really happy to jump into. But we have so many more exciting things to jump into. We have, well, it can't be entertainment because that would fall under adult entertainment. Hey, that's not right. Let's not jump to top of that. We have two great new callers. Joe has actually been on the show previously, but Slu brand new. Can you guys see me? My phone is overheating. Your video dropped. Oh, no. But hey, we can hear you. We can hear you. We can hear you. So we're going to do a quick introduction on Slu. Slu, would you mind telling us about everything about you in the next 30 seconds ago? Oh, wow. I was a Christian for most of my life. I grew up in a Baptist church, an independent Baptist church. I'd come out of that in my 20s or so. I'm 33 now, and I've got a podcast called the Skeptical Satanist. I'm an atheist and a Satanist and humanist and depends on what, what questions being asked, I guess, on what label I want to put on that. Well put, well put, well put, because everything could mean so many different things, right? Right. But unfortunately, there is a good textbook definition for each of those terms. Humanism, atheism and Satanism. What do you think is the one people get the most confused? Do you feel like there's more baggage on Satanism or atheism or? Oh, wow. I think there's a lot, there's a lot of baggage on Satanism itself. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of, well, I mean, atheists have been being called Satanists for how long by Christians anyway. So it's, you know, that's, that kind of already ties into that. Yeah. Skepticism has its own bag of, of issues, I think, sometimes, but. Okay, okay. I have a quick question for you though. You're a Satanist. Do you actually believe that Satan is real? No, I don't. Okay. That's, that's the thing that most people come to me with. You guys are worship Satan. Even the Satanists. No, it's, it's symbolism of rebellion against authority. It's the loyal other. Right. If anything, it's, I'm using your same book. So if you hate what I'm doing, imagine where I got this from, right? I didn't just come up with this on my own. Like I'm using your book to do that. Yeah. It's just like, so give me as many rights as you do. Since you have them in grain and institutions, you can be a Christian. Let me have the exact same access because we're using the same book. So like, no, I don't like that. You want to, you want to have, you want to have your church thing in public schools and stuff, then Satanists get to have their thing there too. Right. Right. Homey out. That's right. From all religions or for all religions. Yeah. You know, the weirdest thing is though, Christians really love that crucifix. And you would think if there was anything that a Satanist would like be the first icon to pick to be like down with Jesus, right? I'm, I'm, I'm saying this in the most blunt way possible. One of them, this crucifix, it's just so bizarre that Christians took that and it's like, if Jesus ever came back and be like, you know, he doesn't like those things, right? Like this is just very, very bizarre. The last thing you'd want to see is crucifixes everywhere. Last thing I want to see. That's a terrible impression that Jesus, but there you go. What do you do now? What's coming about this podcast that you got going on? I've got the skeptical Satanist podcast. I've just started back up with it. I'm trying to get more Satanists on. I've had quite a few atheists and people on. I had Aaron Ferguson on that told his story about being in the Children of God cult. I like to go through different backgrounds of atheism, Satanism and kind of touch on news and things going on in, in today's society and everything. Were you raised religiously and then transitioned out of that religion? Yeah, yeah, I was an independent Baptist my whole life and I had, I transitioned out of that. It was in a, it was a very racist, homophobic setting and everything and very just, yeah, hate driven. I see it as so I'd kind of transitioned out of that and towards humanism and things. I started listening. The first podcast I listened to was Dr. Daryl Ray's Secular Sexuality, which opened my mind to a lot of things at that time and started kind of getting me to question things even more when it came along the lines of the religion I was raised in. I'm glad to have you on this side of anything. The way how I look at it is you were an atheist when you were born. You didn't believe in God when you were born and then you were indoctrinated into baptism and it's been a lifelong struggle to get back out of it and return to the light if you want to call it that. I never expected to be back in a religion again, like after leaving, but it was just one of those things that already lined up with humanism, like all the tenets are just humanist tenets. It does, it puts the finger on the problem. It's not religion that's the problem. It's this Gnostic theism that's the issue. When you claim to know something that is both the material and both designed not to be known, but yet you claim confidence that you have it. You end up with all these extra methodologies of knowing things that are not sustainable, that aren't reliable, and can lead to consequences when you interact with other people. It's a significant issue. But before we get too much into that sky, your hair is looking so great. I love it. I'm going to ask you to unmute my friending and join this conversation whenever you can. There you go. How are you, man? I'm good. Tell me your last story in 30 seconds. Go. I was raised to secular humanists by my grandparents. I never even looked at a Bible until I was, I'd say about 20. Wow. I actually became quite interested from a scholarly standpoint. I became interested in the Bible and early Christianity. So I took it up as a study. I've been studying it for over 30 years now. I blog about Christianity, the early church, origins of Christianity, and topics of interest to atheists like mythicism, laws affecting atheists. I've written about cancel culture this was last year. So I'm kind of all over the map, but I try to keep it an atheist story. Nice. I was thinking, is it better, Larry, I'm asking you this question. Is it better in your opinion to never have been exposed to ideas of God and then call yourself an atheist or maybe to go through the struggles of being forced into it? Well, I think the ultimate goal is not to believe in anything supernatural. But I think that you're much more able to counter the arguments of the religious people if you have came come from that background. I look at Matt Delaconte in Austin, Texas, at the atheist experience. He was studying Christianity quite a bit and very hard for a long time to be able to become a preacher. But before he ever got to be a preacher, his studies led him to see that God wasn't real. But he still has that background that he can then draw to counter the arguments of apologists. However, if you've never been through religion, you don't have to do the struggle and carry the pain and guilt that resentment and resentment that religion has foisted upon you all those years. George, what do you think? I saw you raising your hand. What do you think? You've had an organic atheist upbringing yourself. Organic Jewish atheist upbringing. I have to really extend my sympathy and admiration for you guys who've had to throw off your indoctrination. It must have been an absolute hell of a task to do that. And I didn't have to do it. See, my parents were dragging me off to humanist lectures at the age of four when, of course, I couldn't understand a word of it and was very bored in the pews of the Brooklyn Society for Ethical Culture. And the one thing I wanted, the irony of ethical culture is that I believe that it was founded by secular Jews a little before the turn of the 20th century in New York City. For whatever reason, they chartered themselves as a religion in New York State. And I think the reason for that was to simply try to get some legal equal footing with the theology people. So it has remained a chartered religion, which to me is utterly strange, but I still understand it. And so the main ethical culture society is headquartered in Manhattan. And there have been branches in different cities around the U.S. from time to time. I don't know what the status is now. Larry, I see the floor to you. Well, I was just going to say that the rationalists of East Tennessee started in Oak Ridge over 20 years ago, and they started as a religious organization to be able to get in to have the quote word or classification of religion open the same doors for them. Oh, I didn't know that. So RET is a religious organization. I had no idea. I'm an ordained minister under that. I was beginning to say, because I share Georgia's sympathies, I do feel bad for the ones who have to be indoctrinated when they're young, especially when they had no idea of anything else. And I was one of those people. And the way I think about it is, I saw my religion as a bottle, but I didn't realize it was a bottle of poison, because it was never something I ever had to open. It was just something that I felt privileged to have compared to other people who didn't have that bottle. And it wasn't until I opened up the bottle and understood, oh, my gosh, look at what's in it that I became an atheist. It wasn't until I was told what morality was in an academic setting in a college class, and it went back to my Bible to look for better examples and couldn't find any that I realized this isn't a moral book. Oh my gosh, I've been having these poison bottles in my pocket for like the last eight years or so. It's crazy. Hey, George, I see you raising your hand. What's up? Yeah, Tyrone, I just wanted to ask you what what version of poison were you drinking all those years? Now, that's a great question. That's a great question, because we were military. So we moved around a lot. So I have been to epistemological churches, Pentecostal, Baptist, Methodist, Lutherans. Every single time we moved to a new city, we would join up with a different church. I've seen black churches, white churches, Mexican churches. I've seen Korean Jesuses on crosses. I've seen black Jesuses on crosses like mantles and frames. I've seen it all, but it never hit in my head what was going on with the dissonance of all these different narratives and the culture that I was geolocationally positioned that, that everyone made religion flavored to them. And so it was sort of like I was dealing with, I don't know, I'm going to make a weird abstract concept here, but there used to be a food called corn nuts and corn nuts come in so many different flavors. Some are super gross, some are super awesome. So if someone asked if you like corn nuts, you could say yes, but you mean like which one? Ranch? Because nobody likes ranch. I like ranch. We're not talking about the same thing then. We're not talking about the same thing. But that's what religion was. It was just basically different flavors that were so drastic, despite the fact that they all had the same name and they all had the same label. They were very, very different things. And you could just fall into the circle that you like. So yeah, I am not happy that I wasted a lot of time there, but I do feel like those experiences have made me a better atheist in terms of rejecting bad argumentation and logic. And I feel like I'm more secure in my position right now as a nonbeliever than I would have been otherwise because I could have easily been tempted into another religion by now, another cult by now if I didn't have that reasoning. Slu, do you feel, is that something that you feel the same? Yeah, I mean, I kind of do. I hate the idea of it being a silver lining. Like I hate that terminology. You know what I mean? If that, oh, well, you got to look at that as a silver lining of, no, I could have come across those things in other ways, like other than having to be indoctrinated into that. So I do, I agree to a degree, I do understand that I've I've done a lot more questioning, I think, being in that position, being indoctrinated for so long than if I weren't. For me, it was the rejection of faith of it not being a logical epistemological tool to be using throughout my life. And that was where things really started to my deconstruction started was, was around that. I agree. Faith really, really terrible. I consider them the same thing as eyebrows, you know, like even if I have it, even if defined in a way where I do have it, I don't value it as a decision making process. It's just a thing that I have, that I'd rather have better tools to come to conclusions. Skye, I'm going to ask you a similar question. The idea that you were not indoctrinated into a religion that you've discovered all these tenants about atheism, essentially, or reasonable thinking all on your own. Do you ever feel like maybe you're missing a little bit of empathy for people who are in a religious situation because you've never gone through that experience yourself? I have gone through it with friends. I have gone through with friends leaving the faith and the struggles that they've had, losing family, losing friends, feeling alienated, feeling confused. So, and I'm a pretty empathetic person. I can relate. I can find things in my own life that were similar, that had, I had similar experiences. Like when I came out as gay, I lost a good part of my family. Sure. So, you know, that's comparing apples and oranges, but what I'm saying is that, you know, because I too have felt alienated and confused and lost family and lost friends, that it's a similar experience. And I think that I kind of dodged a bullet by not being indoctrinated. Yeah. More like a cannonball, especially in America, right? Yeah. You matrixed underneath that and just like, oh, wow, I have so much more free time now. George, what's up? Well, the sky just triggered the thought in my mind. Yes, he said dodged a bullet. Yes, I share that. I feel that too. And I've dodged a bullet and I've also been confused because these people know things that I don't know. I don't mean in terms of facts, but in terms of indoctrination. So I'm an outcast. I'm an outcast because I'm an atheist. I'm an outcast because I'm Jewish to begin with. But I'm not. See, I'm outcast from that community because I didn't have that religion. So I'm an outcast and I'm an outcast. And I have other reasons why I'm an outcast. So I'm very, very much an outcast. And I feel comfortable when I'm around outcasts. And I'm not comfortable when I'm around conformists. I love the idea that there are other, because we live in a society that's so ingrained in tribalism to an extent, it's very easy to empathize with someone who is struggling to get out of religion or not being accepted in particular social group because we can find areas in our own cells where we have similar experiences. And it only highlights in my head more the us versus the mentality that I get from Christianity, where it's the Hebrews who are the chosen people or it's the Palestinians who aren't or it's the Samaritans who are the bad guys different that one good example. Or it's the people who aren't Christians, people who don't go to the Third Street Baptist Church because we go to the Fifth Street Baptist Church. They can find any reason the Republicans, Democrats or the religious basis behind it that really spoils me. And for a religion that positions itself as loving and open is just nothing but division and derision for our fellow man. And I just really hate that. Larry, do you feel like I'm on the right page? Or do you actually see similar lines being drawn in the sand by religion all the time? Could you rephrase that question? Do you think that there is a divisionist agenda in the Bible? Let's go that out at you. Well, yeah, it's us versus them. I mean, you know, in the Bible, it was the Israelites against the world basically. And excuse me, look at the Amalites. There was a guy who wrote a bunch of stories about from the Bible and he turned them in an audio book. And one of the points he made was if you lived in the eastern Mediterranean area at the time of the Israelites were moving around and doing their thing, he says the last thing you want is a Israelite village moving in next door. Because what they do is they raid and they fight and they claim slaves. It was like having the Hells Angels moving next door is what it is. And you know, it's us versus them. That's what religions do. It's not just, of course, the Israelites. It's all religions. In my head, not the Palom, but it goes all the way to the New Testament. Jesus was not about combining everybody and loving everybody. He said specifically, I'm here to make sons argue with dads. I'm here to be a sword to divide families like I'm not here to be peaceful and loving. We're here to cause chaos and you've done it. Good. Congratulations. You cannot be my disciple unless you hate your mother and your father and your sister and your brother and you yourself. Yeah. And have you ever tried to stuff a camel through an eye of a needle? It's like what comes out the other end is not a camel. I guarantee you. It's sausage. It's camel sausage. Slu, have you found any, now that you're back in religion, do you find any like value in being in a religious setting again? Has that been helpful for you and what do you think are those positive points? The most positive thing I get to see is that I guess the sense of community and everything with other Satanists, other atheists and everything. The tenants, they're, I think they're great, the way that they're written and everything. It's just something that lines up well with my day to day life anyway. Not bad. Not bad. Not bad. Now, here's the weird thing. I'm going to ask this weird question. As a Satanist, when you hang out with other Satanists, can you do that tax-free or is there a standard in Texas where it's not recognized and you can't do it in that regard? I don't know about taxes. I'm not, I'm not from there, but I'm sorry, Ohio, Ohio, my bad. I believe we do have tax-free status, yes, because they are, they are recognized as an official religion. So, yeah. Interesting. So interesting. Okay. Okay. Go for it, George. What is a Satanist? Do we have a definition? We've had Satanists on the show multiple times, but you're sure. Slu, do you want to go through it one more time? Like I said, it's, it's more or less, it's the symbolism of Satan that's being used. It's not an actual, we aren't worshiping Satan or anything of that nature. We're using Satan as a symbol of, of rebellion against an unjust God or authority for that matter. Right. So. I also find like if you were not to know who the good guy or the bad guy was in the Bible, right, and you only had Satan and God, like one character kills all of humanity and demands to be worshiped in the very first chapter. That's exactly chapter one. And the other guy's like, go for it. Go for it. He's, he's holding people under duress. You love me or I get to throw you into a burning pit. How much, like, how loving is that? Like it warps, it warps the idea of love to begin with. It, it manipulates people's understanding of that term. Go for it, Skye. What's up? I think if the person offering you salvation is also threatening you with torture, if you don't have any salvation on their terms, what you have is not a savior. You have a terrorist. Right. Right. And you know, almost in every example, and this is the weirdest thing, because like, obviously I'm not a proponent of the Bible in any regard. But if you look at every action that Satan does in the book, it's sort of like, yeah, if you're hungry, you can eat that fruit. But let me tell you something. You have no idea of knowing what's right or wrong, but it's gonna, this is going to screw you up. So I might as well just tell it to you anyway, because you're not responsible for your actions. But yeah, eat if you need to eat, right? I think the worst part is it's the fruit of knowledge, right? Yeah, you're not going to know what I'm talking about. And it's like, in hand, you could reach for it. I mean, come on, come on, what's going on here? And then the other thing weird is, there was a part, there's a chapter in the New Testament where Jesus is being tempted by Satan. He's like up on a mountain. And Satan's like, listen, if you want to, if you worship me, I'll blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And Jesus is like, I will not worship you. And the devil is like, okay, cool. I respect your choice. See you later. I'm not gonna punish you for it. I'm just gonna go on my own way. And Jesus is just left there on that mountain feeling all righteous. And in my head, I'm like, God doesn't even give you that deal. God will say, if you don't worship me, I will punish you for the rest of your life. The devil is like, I respect consent. Larry, you got final words before we go out to a break? No, I think I was pretty much so what I wanted to say, but we can go for the break. Is church adult daycare? And then we'll run into it. As opposed to adult entertainment. Interesting. This is the digital Freethought Radio Hour on WOZO Radio 103.9 LP FM right here in Knoxville, Tennessee. And we'll be right back after this short break. Okay. Four, three, two. Welcome back to the second half of the digital Freethought Radio Hour on WOZO Radio 103.9 LP FM right here in Knoxville, Tennessee. I'm doubter five. Now let's talk about the Atheist Society of Knoxville. ASK was founded in 2002. We're in our 20th year, and we have over a thousand members now. And we have weekly in-person meetings in Knoxville's old city at Barley's Taproom in Pizzeria. Look for us inside at the high-top tables, usually the loudest and happiest group. We also have Tuesday evening Zoom ask meetings. If you'd like to join us, email us at askanatheist at Knoxvilleatheist.org or let's chat as e at gmail.com. You can find ASK on Facebook, meetup.com or at Knoxvilleatheist.org. Or you can just Google Knoxville Atheist. It's just that simple. By the way, if you don't live in Knoxville, you should still go to meet up and search for an Atheist group in your town. Don't find one. Star one. That's right. I want that word you want to pick up. Hey, so we have a nice intro on Slew and Skye who joined us this morning. Thank you guys so much for hopping in. Today we're going to be talking about is church essentially just daycare for adults? And the reason why I was thinking about that is I remember daycare growing up. I had a lot of babysitters growing up, but I also went to a lot of daycare centers. It was great. There were my friends who were all there. There were a story time. You got juice at the end. And I'm like, wait a second. This sounds familiar because when you're up there with all my colleagues, some guys telling me some stories, maybe I like them, maybe I don't, maybe I'm falling asleep, but it's okay. There's nap time too in daycare. And once a month or something like that, you get a little juice and crackers. And you're like, oh, this is fantastic. I love it. And when you're a kid, you don't pay for daycare. When you're an adult, you don't technically pay for church. They try to get you to, but maybe it's only a dollar a week at worst. What do you guys think? Slu, I'm going to throw this out at you first. Daycare for adults. Is that what church is? I mean, I'd say that there's definitely enough people taking nap time in those places from what I've seen. So yeah. And the little juice and crackers, you know, that's nice. Yeah. I mean, aside from that, daycares at least pay taxes. And yeah, churches aren't doing so much of that. So if that's what they want to do, I mean, I'd be welcome to them paying taxes because there are way too many that don't, that are making the mega churches and stuff, especially that are making so much money. They are making so much money. I wish we could see those books. Unfortunately, they don't want to share it to us. But hey, what is it? What are you going to do? Larry, what do you think of the idea that churches just take care for adults? Well, if it were only that, a lot better from my view, they tend to just pass on all the supernatural views in addition to just taking care of the adults during that time. And that sets society back. There's a lot of things that are wrong with religion. And we've had whole shows about that. If anybody would like to look at the individual things that they go on with in a society that are religion controls, go to digitalfreethought.com and look for my article. What's so wrong with religion anyway? But that's that's it for me. They don't stop at daycare. They don't stop at just taking your time. They brainwash you. They tell you how to vote. They do. Yeah. On a lot of things. Second class citizenship for women. They dis-science. They give you wrong answers to things that exist in the world and why morality is based on obedience instead of good practices. It's just one thing after another. It fosters anti-intellectualism. It fosters in a weird way inside small towns this tribalistic community where you could have two streets or that have the same church just with different street numbers on them. That is a thing here in the town that I'm in. And it's the most bizarre thing. It's like, why is there a church here and a church here? Like, can't they just agree? What's absolute? I came from a small town that is like maybe 2,000 people at most and there were eight churches in that town. Two Church of Christ on the same main street as North Main Church of Christ in the south. So yeah, there's a lot of that and they aren't that different from any of the other religions around either. Each pointing to the other saying they're wrong and going to hell. Exactly. Yeah. It's sort of like when a Burger King opens up. No, no. This is the better example. I've gone to places in one of my hometowns because I haven't been here, but there's a subway and then right across the street is another subway and you're like, what in the world is going on? Do they want the up traffic and the down traffic? This is a two-lane street. What is going on? At least they sell the same sandwiches. With churches like that, you may get a completely different flavor from just across the road. George, what's up? I'm puzzled about the subways as well. Driving across the United States, it dawned on me that subway is the most ubiquitous restaurant in the country and why? I don't get it. Is it like the churches? No, I'm going to throw this out at you too because I feel like while subway is ubiquitous, I would almost argue that there's more churches than there are subways because you don't have to sell a product. You're giving away false hope. That's the easiest thing to commoditize, right? Or they're selling a product that doesn't exist. Subways at least named after something that gets you somewhere. We're glad we have you on the show. Larry, I do think you have a great point though because it is fiction in a sense. When you are being told a story in daycare, you're not under the impression that there is a brutal lady named Rapunzel. Unless there's a religious daycare, I've been to several of those when I was a kid. Sunday school being an example of that. But there are also religious daycares that have the Ten Commandments on the Wall and the Ark and all the little animals. They also will give you the same supernatural stories as churches will. But it's all part and parcel of religious teachings. If only there was an agreement that what they were saying was fiction, then I'd be like, oh, maybe this isn't so bad because this is just a fun time hanging out with your friends. Or even that it could be true. They don't even mention that there's possibility that it's wrong. You know, they demand that you believe it. Right, right, right. That plus 10 percent. Like, look at a Robert's Church institution at university. When you sign on to the university, you have to sign a belief. I don't know what they call it. It's not a waiver, but it's a statement saying you believe and subscribe to these particular beliefs or you not get into our university. You won't get into our universe? Yeah, university. Oh, okay, okay, okay. I think you never know. You never know. You have to ask these. Liberty University, I think is wonderful. George, I got a weird question for you. Did you ever have daycare growing up? And what do you think of the idea as churches as adults or daycare for adults? Well, boy, yes, daycare growing up. Kind of. I went to a preschool for a short time. It was in a mansion in Brooklyn. And there was a lot of fun. There was a little tiny bowling alley in the basement. That's almost all I remember. And rabbits. We had rabbits when we had naps. You had rabbits? Yeah, there were there were pet bunnies, bunny rabbits, real ones. Okay, they went around, they left little presents on your cot, you know, and little round brown ones. Yeah, little round brown ones. Yes. Yes. And now daycare for adults. That's so confusing to me because I can almost relate to it. It's a social club, really, on Sunday that I see. It's a very powerful social club because you're in it or you're out. Right. And when you go on Sunday, it is a community that welcomes you. You're part of it. If you subscribe to the tenets of the thing, which you usually do, I think. And so you are welcome here. You are part of us. This is, again, the us versus them that you were talking about, you know, very, very powerful. You're part of the in group. Well, he's talking about the community and everything. The other thing is they refer to you as family. It's very cult like the whole religion to begin with, that they are kind of giving you this thing of, I don't know if it would be an appeal to authority if it would be more of a sense of just special pleading for these people, that you don't treat them the same way as others or anything. And that's your family. That's your family, you know? So it's very manipulative in that sense for those things. Sure. Larry. Well, yeah, I was just going to say that the Catholic Church takes it to a whole higher level. The preachers, the priests that you're supposed to listen to and obey are your fathers literally called the fathers. The authority figure in the nunnery as it was his mother, your mother's superior. And then the sisters, the nuns are all sisters. It's very cult like, you know, leave your family behind and come and join our family. You know, they don't care if they divide your family in two or three pieces, as long as they get their followers. That's the main point. George. Yeah, Larry, I think that what you've raised is very powerful, very significant because I'm a little confused about the female side of this. But in the male side, I think this is, this practice is actually emasculating of the father in a real family. Because it is proposing an alternative father, which is the priest. And there's an alternative father, of course, which is God. And so this is a very subtle way of robbing power away from the man, you know, the husband and wife duo. Especially, I'm sorry, I was just going to say, especially when the church comes down on you and say that the hierarchy is Jesus, the father, the mother, the children. In other words, everybody looks up to the father for leadership, but the father is supposed to look for Jesus. Now, Jesus doesn't really show up and give him any direction. So who does the preacher? If you take the right drugs, it doesn't. But the preacher, so all of this is very handy for the preacher and the religious organization. Right. So, you know, religion as an institution does not generate a product, doesn't generate power, like from time and memorial, religion gets things by robbing them from other institutions, power, ideas, culture, music, everything. Right. People, money, it takes and then assumes that it already had the authority to do so. It's parasitic. It's very parasitic, doesn't exist without a working climate or working economy surrounding it. Right. And so when George mentions robbing power, that is wholly the game plan of religion. I'm here to take power from families because when you stop listening to your family listen to me, I ask religion when at the end of the day, and it's a really unfortunate circumstance. It also puts a Larry as you were saying, fathers, brothers, I remember when I was in a Baptist Church and I called everyone brother Teresa or brother, brother Mary or these are weird combinations of words and names, but who, maybe you're not 2022. Who cares? But I'm saying like, you earn authority or you are told to be a position of authority for somebody. And churches never give you the opportunity to even learn who are the people that you are referring to by these names. They're essentially people who talk to you, but you never get as much opportunity to talk to them or understand where they're coming from or how they behave or what kind of culture they maintain. You're just my first week in every church, I'm being hugged left and right by people. I don't know who any of these people are. There's like a fake, almost saccharine level of sincerity around me. And I'm told, that's Father Blank, that's Pastor this, this is the guys who's like, I don't care who any of these people are. I just want to hear, you know, what you guys believe and how you came to those conclusions. You don't really get that opportunity to. And it's just so, it's a weird thing. It's a lot like a cult. Speaking of cults, Lou, you're a Satanist. Does anyone ever called you a cult before? And how would you even define a cult? I would like to know this. I haven't. I would say it probably fits under that category. It depends on your definition of cult and all of that. But what's your definition? I mean, I had somebody on my show, like I said, that was in the Children of God cult for most of his life. So to him, which I would go with his definition of it, he says that there isn't any difference between a religion and a cult. The only real difference is numbers. So you've got a smaller number of people in this religion that makes it a cult. That's about the only thing. It's marketing, baby. That's it at the end of the day. Yeah. All right. What's up, George? Well, I think that it's different than that in my mind. In my mind, the definition of cult is what the other guys believe. And I mean, because we have, we have a huge cult in this country right now. Almost half of the voters in this country are in a cult. And I'm going to stop here. Religion is what you see in the mirror. A cult is what you see with your eyes, like in a sense, like everything else is a cult. But what you see when in your own home, when you're looking at your own face is a religion. And that's such an unfortunate because if you go through the definitions of cult, there's actually a government issued document that is a concern report for it was released in the 60s. So it's still up to date. Even though when you look at it, it's like, what is a cult? There's typically a guy in charge. They try to change your name or terminology. They're asked for money at the end of the day. They congregate at least once a week. They try to instill family values in place of your own. I'm like, aren't we reading religions? Like this is religion. This is religion. We're not slew. It's funny that that definition came up in the 60s, right? What was going on then? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Though it's a bizarre concept though. We talked about churches being daycares for adults. We don't like how churches operate. How would we change it? What would a daycare for adults look like in the most ideal sense of the secular version? I'll throw this out to slew first. You're a guest of honor. Oh, George, we'll go to you right next. Slew, what would you want to see in an adult daycare? Adult daycare. Well, I'm not sure that I want to see an adult daycare. Really? I would love it. Are you kidding? To me, that's entertainment of these children or whatever just to keep them busy while they're moms or dads or out doing whatever. To me, that doesn't seem like something I really want for adults. I want more questioning, more something to gather on as anything. So, are you thinking of a parlor room with a bunch of tables and station of cigar smoke and we'll just discuss some philosophy? That could be a thing. Everybody's different with those things though. I enjoy the Satanist community and the things that they do with the places around us. They're doing great things for women's rights and the schools and trying to get equal standing for religion and stuff so that it isn't just Christians taking over these public schools and things and forcing their views on them. And I've went to something called a Sunday Assembly before that has a structure similar to church, but they kind of implement things that are all secular things and they'll have people on that will have guests there that will speak on topics. One I went to was on like rovers and stuff like Mars rovers and everything. It was really cool. So, I like that. I like those things. The structure itself kind of triggers me just for the fact of it being so similar even though they aren't anything to do with one another really in that sense. I totally get it. I totally get it. So, I've done talks at a secular or a Sunday school assembly. The weird thing is how oddly church like everything actually is right down to the band and but it's not. But you're like, I get the flavor but it doesn't have to be in this box, right? Like I almost enjoy not this form factor but I get it. Universalist, unitary universes, same vibe. You get a lot of science talks but also all the religions have a chance to talk. And if that's also weird too. What's up George? Sorry. Well, it's an organic atheist. My version of this would be just jungle gyms and swings and you know a little merry-go-round type thing. Very large ones and we need very thick rubber mats all around. This sounds more fun. I don't want to pick already but George has a pretty fun one that I'd like to go through right now. Laser tags. Come on. Unlimited arcade coins. Let's go. That'd be awesome. Larry, what's your adult daycare look like? What do you call it? Return home? With VR headsets, right? That's right. It would have to have virtual reality for it to be able to keep me in there. I think you win points by the community outreach. Like there's no reason why you can't incorporate that into a daycare. It doesn't just have to be for you. You can do it for your community. And then George too, you can have some fun in there. Throw some rubber balls in there. Have a ball pit. I'd have a lot of animals too. A lot of rabbits leaving behind treats behind. Guys, let's get into some listener feedback. We did have some commenters on last week's episode. I hadn't pulled it up just yet. So how about this? While I pull up the comments for video ads. Slu, thank you for coming by. Is there anything we should check out? Anything you'd like to plug while I put these comments? My podcast is on YouTube. I got the Skeptical Satanist up there. I would recommend, well, with what we're talking about and everything, The Godvirus is a great book by Dr. Dale Ray that goes into a lot of the things we're speaking about as far as religion and how it mutates and things throughout history and things of that nature. And he's got a couple projects that I'd like to plug that are good as well. The Recovering from Religion Foundation. Recoveringfromreligion.org and Secular Therapy Project. Secular TherapyProject.org as well. So nice, nice, nice. Cool. Guys, here are our comments from last week's episode. Last week was, of course, should you become a Christian presented to us by our own George Brown, the second and a half. We had a comment from a data trading room who said, if the God of Christianity were true, then we would all be Christian by default. So no one would ever need to convert anybody. And to that comment, I would say it would be pretty obvious which God was real. And if you, all it takes is to believe in that God is to be a Christian, sure. But I also feel like there's a worship component too. And so like, I might believe that that God's real if it's evident. But if that God doesn't deserve my respect, any God that asks for worship is probably below that limit. I would never worship that. So I may not even be a Christian, even if I knew that God was true. Larry, do you feel the same way? Oh, you're on mute, my bud. I just saw John Richards pop in. I thought we ought to turn it over to him. Hey, John Richards. Praise the question for him. It just, he wasn't here for the rest of the show because I made a mistake and didn't. John, we just had a comment that was from last week's episode. The comment was from the data trading room. He's saying basically, if God was real, if the Christian God was real, everyone would be Christian by default. So you wouldn't need a waste time converting anybody. Do you think you'd be a Christian if you knew the Christian God was real and he made himself evident? Or would there be a, would there be another step for like worshiping? It's a long question, but you know me. I love my long questions. What's up, John? Well, I can't see any way that the Christian God would be able to demonstrate himself to be evident. Granted that. Granted that that is almost okay. Okay. Would you be a Christian then? In that case, you're saying I don't have a choice, really. I'm sort of born a Christian. Oh, I'm saying you have now, though, that this God is real and exists, similar to like how Satan knows that God is real and exists, but Satan's not a Christian, right? In the same way, you have a choice of becoming a Christian or not. And I feel like just knowing that the God is real is not the same thing as becoming an ardent member of that person's religion or that being's religion. Well, I don't see the reason to have a religion in any case. I don't see the need for worshiping some, you know, even if it's a real deity. I mean, why should we worship that thing? Exactly. It's like if Jupiter came down, it's like, okay, so you were real, but I'm not going to be a Jupiterite. George, what's up? George, what's up? Well, I was going to ask you, John, I mean, you have an official religion in your country. And we have people in my country who want to have an official religion and they're held on to make that happen. And how do we deal with all this stuff? I mean, the big question in Great Britain, you obviously don't all adhere to it. And yet it's set in stone somehow. So how do you deal with that? Well, we sensibly changed the rules back in King Henry VIII's day, 500 years ago, when he decided he wanted to be our local pope. Right. Yes. Tudor dynasty. Exactly. Yes, yes. And you can go and see running meat, for example, and the palace of, I forget what it's called, but it's all here to visit and it's great fun going on those trips. Commercial for Britain. But the point is that that was so long ago, we've allowed the established church to wither away, to age and become impotent, you know? And this has been an organic process for you, right? In my mind, this parallels what has happened in France, in Italy, and maybe even in Ireland, where the church, the church's dominance is just sort of withering away. Do you see it? Why did that happen in Iran or Iraq or Pakistan? Like, what's the difference there and what should be the thing or markers we look for, where some churches are given time to age and others just become more and more and more strict? Like Poland. Fear. In Muslim countries, they rule by fear. So that's very good for keeping people engaged and concentrating on how they should behave. Very good. But what about Poland, let's say? Poland, where it's becoming more entrenched, I feel? You see, I don't know much about Poland, but the situation in Ireland, for example, it's very recent, the decline of Catholicism in Ireland. And it's come about because of modern technology, which has enabled the pedophilia, the priests that have been covered up, to suddenly become well known. That was right up until recently. That was not popular knowledge, not common knowledge, I should say. I love it. John, you got to join the show earlier. We love talking to you. You're a bastion of not only knowledge, but that delicious, delicious, weird European accent-y thing. You add so much culture to the show. I got to be honest with you. He's British. We had one more comment from Boppleguy. He said, if there was a powerful being that already showed themselves to humans in the past, there's no reason not to show up again. You might as well be saying, or Christians might as well be saying, you have a girlfriend, but she lives on Jupiter. Hey, we had two calls outs for Jupiters on the same show. Thank you guys so much for the comments. I wish we had time to go through them all, but feel free to leave them in the comments on my YouTube page if you're here or on Larry's, if he's also posted it. We are near the ending of the show. Slu, thank you so much for joining us and thank you for the plugs. We really appreciate having you on. Thanks for having me on. Yeah. John Richards, you had an amazing fundraiser yesterday. I'm not even sure if it's still ongoing right now as we speak, but would you know that as well? It's finished, but it was fun. I really enjoyed doing it, even though it kept me up longer than my bedtime, well past my bedtime. Who's the fundraiser for? That was for recovering from religion organization, fantastic organization, and you can still see it. It's now available as a podcast, and you can still donate to just go and click on the links. Fantastic. George, anything that you'd recommend we check out before next week? I've just glommed on to Vietnamese coffee. Very cool. Skye, are you still with us? You might still be. He might be still away with his dog. He's had some dog issues. Larry, how are you holding up? Oh, John, one more? What's up? What I forgot to say, of course, is where to go to see the fundraiser, and it's free thought productions. That's my YouTube channel. Very, very cool. Also, thank you for playing my music. That was so cool. It was really nice. Yeah, yeah. Well, thanks for letting me use it. Oh, anytime, anytime you want. It's on record now. You can use it anytime you want. I can't take it to court. We like to sue in the U.S. I've just, I completely killed every case I could bring against you now. It's a wonderful gift. It's brain balm. I like to think of your music. Thank you. It's feel good. Larry, what's up with you? Anything you'd like to plug? Well, my content can be found at digitalfreethought.com. Be sure to click on the blog button. We have our radio show archives there, Atheist songs, many articles on the subject of atheism and religion. I do have a book out called Atheism, What's It All About, and it's available on Amazon, or you can find my YouTube content on YouTube by searching for my name. If you have any questions for the show, send them to askanatheistatnoxfilatheist.org, or to let'schatsegmail.com, and we'll answer them on future shows. If you're having trouble leaving your religious beliefs behind, you can find help at recoveringfromreligion.org. Great place, great resources, and good people. Thank you for joining us at the Digital Freethought Radio R. Remember, you can find this show on Apple iTunes, Pocket Cast, Amazon, and podcasts everywhere. Just search for Digital Freethought Radio Hour. If you're watching this on YouTube, be sure to like and subscribe. Remember, everyone is going to somebody else's hell. The time to worry about it is when they prove that heavens and hells and souls are real. Until then, don't sweat it and enjoy your life. We'll see you next week. Say bye, everybody. Thank you so much, everybody. That was great.