 So good afternoon all of you. We are meeting once again as usual in Doctor's webinar series and today we have Dr. M. Sashi Jamil who is a Director, Foundation for Church and Society, Associate Professor of Old Testament and Interpretation at OTC Seminary, D. Mappu. Sir will be speaking on a very interesting topic that is the mission of God, Garden of Aden. Before I hand over the charge to sir, I remember one quote from Christopher J. H. Wright. He said that mission arises from the heart of God himself and is communicated from his heart to ours. Mission is the global outreach of the global people of a global heart. Sir with his words, I hand over the charge to you. Please stand and go ahead. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time and thank you so much for your understanding also. Thank you. All right. Thank you Dr. Ani for this opportunity and thank you all of you who have come here to listen to this webinar. I deeply want to apologize for yesterday's incident. What can I say? Maybe it's just the pandemic that's making my head also upside down. So my apology for missing last evening. But really I'm thankful to Dr. Aniruta. His enthusiasm is very contagious and it has really helped me and motivated me for this presentation. So once again, thank you. As Aniruta has said, our topic today is God's mission and I have put a subtitle, The Garden of Aden 2.0. So that's what I want to talk about. Maybe I'll try to talk like 20-25 minutes and then if you have questions you can ask me. I don't know whether I will be able to answer all the questions but I'll try my best. So let me begin with a story, a personal story. My grandfather who died sometime in the late 1990s. He was a pastor of my village for around 35 years or more and I remember as a young kid in the 80s and early 90s, he would often visit us here in Dimapur and we would love his presence because he always narrated stories to us. But I also remember my siblings and I would be very scared at some of his stories, especially stories about the end times. And this includes stories such as 666, the devil's number, or about the rapture, how suddenly people will be taken away. All those end times stories and most importantly, the message that by 2000 the world will come to an end or something of that sort and that would really scare us, not giving us a good rest at night as well. My grandfather was a God-faring person, lovely person. It's just that that was the kind of thinking they had during that time. That was a sort of theology and unfortunately I think even today there are, there is this sort of theology that is going around in our society that this world will become a sort of hell. This world will be all burned down and the hell is nowhere but it is this one. So that kind of understanding still seems to be around to me. I think our belief system has to be reoriented and in order to reorient our belief system I think we need to have sound, biblical and theological understanding of the scripture. And today's topic, God's mission is one such topic that would actually help us to reorient our belief system. In order to understand God's vision it will be better for us to start from the end of the scripture. That is the Book of Revelation, especially, specifically Revelation chapter 21, 1 to 4 where it talks about how at the end God will reunite the new heavens and new earth and that He will dwell, tapernacle among us and that He will be our God and we will be His people. That's the vision of God. That's what God is looking for work too. Generally when we talk about God's mission we start from the great commission found in Matthew chapter 28, 16 to 20, especially again verses 19 to 20 where it says all the authorities are given to me. All the authorities in heaven and on earth are given to me, to Christ. And so go out and make disciples to all the nations. That's the basis of our mission. But if we focus on that alone without really considering the whole scripture I think there is a danger of misplacing God's mission, of misunderstanding or a partial understanding of God's mission. And so I would like to quickly begin from the creation story and to see God's mission and His vision. So God created this whole universe and He said it is beautiful, it is very good. And then He created human beings, you and I, in His own image and He put us in the Garden of Eden. Now God wanted to have fellowship with us and His creation. God wanted to have a fellowship of Shalom. Shalom means wholeness, a fellowship of wholeness, a fellowship full of meaning in our lives. That's the sort of intention God had when He created this world and created us. And He commanded Adam and Eve, the first human beings, to oversee the world and to make sure that His intention of having fellowship is taken to all the parts of the created world. However, we see that as the scripture unfolds, we notice that Adam and Eve could not keep the command that God has given to them. And so they were chased out from the Garden of Eden. But God is a God of Chesed. Chesed is a Hebrew word which is often translated as grace or steadfast love or mercy. So because of God's grace, even though He chased Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden, He did not forget about His vision. He did not forget about His intention of creating this world. And therefore we find in Genesis chapter 12 how He called Abraham from Ur and to follow him. And through Abraham, his descendants, Israelites, were elected by God so that through Israelite, God's mission, God's vision of filling this earth with the fellowship of Shalom will be established. But again, the scripture tells that Israelites were not up to it. Israelite could not keep the covenant. And that's why towards the end of the Israelite's history, you find that there were prophets. God sent prophets after prophets to tell them to repent. But when the prophets realized that Israelites were not going to repent, they received new message from God and the new message which we find in the prophets, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, almost all the prophets, Malachi, they talk about a new time, they talk about a Messiah that will come and that will really fulfill what God wanted, fulfill God's intention in other words. And that's how in the New Testament we see how Jesus Christ came to this world. And He did not just fulfill God's intention, but He showed us, He showed us, Christ showed us how we can have that fellowship with God, how we can have the fellowship of Shalom with God. And not only that, not only that, but God also defeated the power of evil. God also defeated the power of evil. What is the power of evil? The power of evil or the schemes of evil are such as pride, anger, love of money, love of power, sloth, that is laziness, clodney, you know, clodney, greedy, selfish kind of in way. These are the schemes of evil and God defeated that. God in Christ defeated that through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Many a times as Christians, we only think about how we are safe, how our personal salvation has been received through the death of Christ and by believing in Him. But we often neglect that we have a power, power that comes through Christ, power to fight against the scheme of the devil. We often forget that. So when we accept Christ and when we have Christ in our life, we become part of God's intention. We become the royal priesthood. We become the royal priest of God as said in the book of, in the letters of Peter. We become the royal priest. So we, as a royal priest, what is the task? What is the task? Our task is to renew this world, is to renew, bring transformation, bring development to this world. Our task is to reach out to the humanity, to bring people who are in darkness to light. That's the task of being a royal priest. And for that to happen, we don't need to be a theologian. We don't need to go to a seminary to study theology, but God has called us out. God has called us out to be in different vocations. Some of us to be a professor in a secular college. Some of us to be perhaps an artist, or a musician, or a director of an office, or educationist, or a peon, or a police. God has called us in different vocations. And using the platform, I think we can be the royal priest of God. Using that platform, using the power that we get through the platform, we can be God's agent of bringing fellowship of Shalom to this world. I think that's the agenda of God. That's the mission of God. It's to bring redemption to this world as well as to humanity. Romans chapter 8, 23 to 24, Paul talks about how not just the humanity is crying out for redemption, but also this creation, the whole creation is groaning for redemption, is crying out for redemption. And who is going to bring that redemption? Who is going to bring, save the humanity and the creation? That's none other than us, the believers, the believers of Christ. We are the agent. We are the royal priest. We are part of God's mission. We are instrument for God's mission, and which is to bring redemption to this world, to this humanity. And one day as we strive hard, one day as we continue to have relationship with God, working, giving our best to bring redemption to humanity and to this world, God will reunite the new heavens and new earth as it is said in Revelation 21, 1 to 4. And he will be our God, and we will be his people. And it says there will be no more crying. God will wipe away our tears. There will be no more sickness. There will be no more people suffering from cancer, diabetes, or there will be no more coronavirus around us. There will be no more division of poor and rich, but the world will be full of love, peace, kindness, compassion, justice, and equality. And that's what is God's mission, beginning from Genesis. And that's what God is envisioning as recorded in the Book of Revelation. I know some of you still holding on to that old understanding of the Scripture that this world will become hell. The rapture will happen and we will be taken up somewhere up in the sky. How do we understand those writings that we find in the Scripture? You have to understand, when Paul wrote about the rapture in the Book of First Thessalonians and First Corinthians, he was writing in the context of Hebrew and Greco-Roman context. And so he was referring to certain habits, certain understanding within that context. So when he talks about rapture, like Jesus coming down with lots of angels and trumpets, coming down and people going up to the air, the analogy is actually that of maybe Moses bringing down the Ten Commandments from Mount Sinai. And the other context is the Greco-Roman context where the generals, the wrong generals, when they go to war and when they are victorious and coming back from the battle after defeating the enemies, what happened is that the citizens of the city opened the gate and they will take the trumpet, they will take the drums, they will celebrate and they will go out of the gate and go and usher in the general who has conquered the enemy and bring the general or the king into the city. That's the kind of depiction Paul is actually talking when he's talking about the rapture, that Christ coming down in the clouds and people going up, actually people going up is not to go up somewhere up in the sky and live there, but it's going up to receive the king, the king of kings, Jesus Christ coming down in victory and bringing down to this new world that will be fully renewed. It will be like Jesus coming back to the Garden of Eden again. That's the kind of concept Paul is talking about when he talks about rapture. Also some of you might say like in John 14 too where just before Jesus just before Jesus ascended to heaven, he said there are lots of dwelling place in my father's house. Now the word dwelling place in Hebrew, not in Hebrew in Greek, is Monet and the word Monet actually is a resting place. It is a resting place. It is like a transit place like you are traveling to some place say you're going to Europe. You have a transit in say in Dubai, something like that. It's a Monet, the word Monet, the dwelling place in Greek is Monet. That word is like a resting place and so the thing that I want to say is when we die, we go and stay with God and stay with him until the resurrection happened because this world is not going to become hell but this world will be renewed and God will come and this will be perhaps, perhaps I don't know about the future, but perhaps this will be like the refresh, the renewed Garden of Eden that God at first created and that is the mission of God. That's where God is leading us. That's where God wants us to be involved in, in bringing renewal to this world and in redeeming his creation. So I will end there. I don't know how much time I took but I'm ready for question and answer time. Sir, thank you so much for your enlightening talk. Now I open up the platform for questions. If there are any questions, please go ahead, sir will answer. Thank you. We can ask anything. Okay sir, before the conceptualized question, I just want to congratulate you for taking up this wonderful topic and I think while listening to you, I have had some thoughts in my mind, okay and which I just want to share with you. When we speak about our individual relationship with the God, our relationship through various institutions with the God and at the same time, reflection of that relationship in our routine daily life, especially in the context of various challenges that we face, social challenges, political challenges, individual challenges, psychological challenges. So during our journey, God always inspires us when we pray to God, when we meditate on the God, when we read the Bibles, when we try to understand the life of Jesus Christ. It is always very inspiring for all of us but my question is that when the question of healing this broken world comes, okay, what role people like you and me can play, those who are inspired by the vision of God to heal this broken world, what we can do? Because somewhere I really believe that the message of Jesus should reach to the people. So it is not just something, this problem can be sorted out with legal system or the political system or some social transformation. I always point out to the spiritual transformation and somewhere I feel that spiritual transformation is necessary. So what is your take on it? Of course, we want to create another Eden, right, where we can have a tabernacle with the God but we need to create a society which is capable to do that. So how do you do that? What is your role? What is my role? Thank you sir. A very great question and I agree with you first and foremost there should be spiritual renewal. I mean unless and until we have that spiritual renewal, I don't think we can, we will have the right intention anyways. So spiritual renewal is the first and foremost that should happen in a person's life, having Christ and having good relationship with Christ. And I think, you know, having right understanding, right understanding of the scripture, today I think especially in Naga society, I don't know about the other parts of India, but in Naga society our spirituality is very privatized. You know, it's about accepting Jesus Christ so that we can, it's more or less like getting a ticket to go to heaven. You know, as long as I'm okay, as long as I have good relationship with God, then that's fine. I have my ticket now I can go to heaven. That's the sort of, that's the sort of, you know, spirituality we have, very privatized. And so when we have private kind of spirituality, I think our work, the work that we need to do for God becomes more of for ourself. It's, I'm doing something good so that, you know, my spirituality will be stronger, so that my going to heaven will be more sure that I will definitely go to heaven. That kind of very narrow understanding. And so I feel the church, which includes me, still needs to reflect deeper. The church, especially in Nagaland, is so powerful. I think it is the most powerful platform we have, but it's very dormant because we don't have the right kind of understanding. Our understanding is just curtailed to evangelization, just going out and talking about Christ. And that is very true. But perhaps the church together can be very political as well, can be a political force, you know, stand up for justice. Show the way for equality. Make sure that, you know, the political powers or officers are using the money for the public development. Make sure that they're using it nicely, diligently, wisely, and not just abusing it for themselves. So individually, you know, Christianity all through history has been a community-oriented, community-oriented kind of movement. It's not an individual movement. And of course, as an individual, we can do, but also as a church, as community, I think we can do a bigger role. I don't know whether I answered you, Ani, but that's just what came to my mind. Yeah, right, sir. I mean, see, we receive Christ by a personal invitation. You know, we know that receiving Christ involving turning to God from self, that is repentance, and trusting Christ to come into our lives to forgive us of our sins and to make us what he wants us to be, right? Just to agree intellectually, just my point, just to agree intellectually that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that he died on the cross for our sins. I think it's not enough, right? Nor is it enough to have an emotional experience. We receive Jesus Christ by faith as an act of our will. So somewhere, what I believe, and as you rightly mentioned, right? So somewhere, when we speak about, when we move from individualisms to the community aspect of religion, right? So we first learn to think from community perspective, and first we have to understand what community is all about, right? Somewhere, I'm trying to, you know, specifically in the Nagaland context, I want to point this tribalism thing, right? When we speak about the tribal oriented Christianity, I never understood, sir, this tribal oriented Christianity. I think one day, one moment, we have to really think about that where exactly our Christian trajectory is going, okay? And we have to go beyond that. And somewhere, when all the barriers, tribal barriers, social barriers, economic barriers will be broken down by the grace of the God, anyway, I believe, can really think about the community, community Christianity and we together can go ahead to the, to the spiritual progress. What is your, what is your take on it? I mean, this is my, my understanding, you know, from my experience. Yes, yes. That's, that's the problem we are suffering right now. We see more and more the culture intruding the scripture rather than the scripture transforming the culture. And so, you know, we, we make use of the scripture to defend our own stance, rather than to correct our misgivings. And, and so, you know, there are so many things that we need to reflect and be a better Christian, I think. Right now, our understanding is very shallow and it's sort of distorted. And as I said, it's very privatized, privatized kind of spirituality that we have. So, I mean, to have Christ means to love others and not just others, but to love our enemies. And, and we cannot practice that, you know, and this is not, not possible from our own human wisdom or human strength, but this will be made possible through the power of the Holy Spirit working in and through us. But we have to be ready. We have to be in good relationship with God to let the Holy Spirit work in us. And so, I think, I think more and more we have to talk about, about what it means to have Christ, what it means to really have Christ in one's life. We have to talk more and more about such things like God's mission, this webinar, this kind of things should, you know, this message should go to the church, to the pastor, to the Christians, so that they come to realize that just going to church one Sunday is not enough. Every day we should be Christian. That kind of message has to be understood. So, yeah, as of now, that's it. Thank you. Thank you, sir. There is one more question coming from my friend, Avive. She has a very interesting question. Let me read it out for you. Yeah, her question is, thank you, sir, for enlightening talk. In fact, I'm really impressed to know that your grandfather himself was a pastor and you may be the third of four generations working for Christ. My question to you is, as Christ died and that saved the sins of mankind, forgiven and yet we continue to commit sin. How long can we commit sin and still be felt we are forgiven? Or is this event of Christ's death a conclusion to commit sin? Very interesting question, sir. This is exactly what has been haunting to me since years. Very right question. Please, sir. Yeah. Well, very good question, Avive. We are human beings. You know, we are limited beings, inadequate in every ways. And so they're bound to happen in our lives, things knowingly or unknowingly, you know, falling into sin or committing sin. But on the other hand, we should know that our God is a gracious God. As I said, Hezeth is a Hebrew word and it is very unique only to the Hebrew people. This word Hezeth does not appear. There is no cognate language related to this word in the other ancient Near East society. It's only found in Hebrew. And this word is usually translated as grace, but it cannot be fully translated. The meaning of Hezeth cannot be fully translated by the word grace. It's deeper than that. It's more about how a superior, superior forgiving, forgiving a lowly person who does not deserve at all to be saved or who does not deserve at all his love and yet a superior loving that lowly person. You know, a superior has nothing to gain from a lowly person and yet God is willing to show his love. That's the kind of thing Hezeth means. So God's love is unmeasurable. His grace we cannot measure. It's so deep and white and so high. As long as we try, as long as we try to be with God, I think that is what God wants from us. Yes, we will make mistakes, but as long as we strive to love God, to walk according to God's path, our life, in our life, the wantingness to sin, the wantingness to tell lie, those things will be minimized. We will never be perfect. Remember, we human being will never be perfect. There will be always inadequacies in our lives, but as we try harder to live with God, to maintain our relationship with God, that perfection is like a rubber that can stretch. You become bigger, but still you can stretch. You reach this one and you reach certain line, but the rubber can be stretched and it can go further. It's something like that. Perfection is something like that. You can never be fully perfect, but you can always grow in your perfection. And so we will be perfect only when Christ returns and when He will tapernacle with us. Only then we will be perfect. We will have the full image of God in us, but right now we will just have to try and try, just like David. David was called as the man after God's own heart. David was a sinner, but he always wanted to be close to God, and that's why David is called as a man who is searching for God's heart, always. And so we just have to strive for that. And if we do that, God will take care of us. If we do that, our life, we will see, we will be astonished, we'll be surprised at how Holy Spirit is working in us. Thank you. Excellent, excellent elaboration. So somewhere we have to understand that the journey towards perfection is endless and that has to be of God. There is one more question, sir. There is one more question coming up. Yes. Let me see that question and I'll read it out for you. The question has been asked by Theriyasano Kersi. All right. He says, thank you for the enlightening talk. I would like to know what in your opinion is the difference between spirituality and religiosity, and which should be given more emphasis in a Christian journey. Wonderful question. So what is your take on it, spirituality and religiosity? Well, that's very interesting, but also it's good question and good questions are difficult to answer. In a way, Christianity is not even a religion. It's not even, it shouldn't be a kind of institution where you come in, but it should rather be a movement. I think it should be a movement. And I would like to talk about spirituality when it comes to Christianity rather than religiosity. And our spirituality with God will be more of both having our personal relationship with God, but at the same time that personal relationship is being translated in our daily activities in the way we look at others, in the way we do our job, wherever we are positioned. And that's Christian spirituality. And perhaps Deja Seno is asking in terms of legalism and non-legalism sort of thing. Also, we can answer from that angle as well. Religiosity can be defined in a way like someone being so legalistic, following all the rules and regulations, just like the rich young man who came to Jesus Christ saying, you know, I follow all the rules and regulations. But then when it came to practice loving the poor, sharing his wealth with the poor, he couldn't do it. And so from that perspective, I think there is no room for religiosity. There is no room for legalism in Christianity. I think, you know, our spirituality, Christian spirituality has to be both vertical relationship with God as well as horizontal in our relationship with human beings. If our spirituality with God is only about vertical dimension, then there is a big question about our spirituality. At the same time, if our spirituality is just about the horizontal dimension, then again, there is a big question mark about our Christian spirituality. Okay, thank you, sir. Now, I have one question. Now, I have one question. We have been speaking about religiosity and spirituality. And in the discourse, you have spoken about the institution also, right? So in this context, I want to ask one question that sometimes people are in church of the ideal church. They have an idea about the church in their mind. They are always in such an ideal church or ideal church. And somewhere they realize that there is nothing like ideal. Ideal church cannot be found. So what such people needs to do? If they cannot found ideal church, what would you tell to such people who are in such an ideal church, ideal community, to have a communion with God? Yeah, well, let me just give you an example. Like, you know, people think when they come to seminary, for instance, or endothelological seminary, some people think that, oh, this is like all the good people are here, so there won't be any fighting, there won't be any cosids, you know? But it's full of all those things happening, you know, in the seminary. People love to gossip, people love to even steal. Sometimes we have that kind of problem. And the reason is because we are living in a fallen world, you know, even in the church, we all are fallen human being. And just like Awe has asked, you know, we are fallen human being and we will never be perfect. So even in the church, you know, there will be always some sort of tension or friction between people. But if you are really Christian, if you are really wanting to follow Christ, and if you are trying to have that relationship with God stronger, then I think there will be, in your conscience, there will be something telling you to go and forgive that person, or go and ask forgiveness from that person. And that is the mark of Christianity. You see, we are not insulated. We are not free from our human inadequacy. It will be there. But as Christians, as followers of Christ, I think there will be something that tells us in our conscience to go and ask forgiveness, or to go and give forgiveness, even though you are right and that person is wrong. And that is the body of Christ. You see, that is how the body of Christ grows. That's how our faith in God grows deeper and deeper. Ani? Yes, sir. Thank you so much. Got my answer. Thank you. Let us see if there are more questions. Anybody wants to ask any more questions? I mean, Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Dr. Ani. Thank you so much for your enlightening talk as some of our colleagues. Welcome. Instead of typing, I'm just asking. It's not like a question also, but some points that I would like to agree with. Yes. Our Christian life, it's not a system, as you said. It is not supposed to be an institution because we don't return it as an institution. We were born and brought up in an environment, but you are not, though you may be born as a Christian in a Christian family, though you may be a Christian family, but you are not a Christian until you meet personally with the Lord. And I see, we as the Naga people living here, we also witness a Sunday Christian, you know, where it comes on Sunday, and I so much agree with it, and I stand with this to that. And I totally stand against such belief and such faith. That is just a floating, but it is rotting, you know, our land is rotting when it comes to spiritual life. And now we can see also that today we are only six of us. I also came in late because my phone was with somebody. So I also came in late, but to see that number, you know, when it comes to our spiritual life, you know, nobody is interested. But when we seriously look at our life, this is the highest calling that we have in our life to know the Lord and to really follow and obey the Lord in our lifetime. It's the highest calling that each one of us have, but I don't know, it is very difficult for all of us to understand also, you know, though we know Bible, though we are considered as a Christian, but this basic knowledge is absent in our midst. And when we talk about rapture also, really, when we were young, we were told that when Jesus comes back, you all will be flying up in the air. And I don't know what the wrong, how, what kind of wrong interpretation has come in and then have, you know, part even the life of this, you know, the life of the spiritual life in our area. But I believe that, you know, God has a mission in sending us to the world. And that mission is that when his son comes back, you know, he had done almost all his mission, but there is one mission left, the coming of Christ again. So when he comes back, I believe that his body, as you mentioned that he is coming back for his body, and he as a bride and a bridegroom, and he's coming back for the bride. And I don't know how, how on earth will God have his people or as a body in time, I don't know, but I am sure there will be people here and there, you know, sincerely and honestly and then fully, you know, walking in his place. And I believe that, you know, yes, 2000 years and more now that God had given out his, God had given out his gospel, but I believe what we see here is very sad and even in our spiritual life as we talk about, I believe that our spiritual life is more important than religion because it is beyond religion. So our walk of God is not a religion, but it is a relationship, you know, that we would share in each other's lives here and now, but in each other's lives as well. So when, when I'm, let's mainly do yourself, so I can relate, but I just have some points that I can really agree with, and I think we can all work together, maybe wherever we are, we may not be together, but where we are, our ambition is also to be a voice of the Lord, you know, the voice of truth on this Earth today. So that is what, and just so many more when it comes to this God and the mission of God, I do have thought of that eagerness and desire to share and to hear even from others. So thank you so much for the talk there and there's nothing question as such as I said, but we are missed that many ways, you know, even in our church life, you know, so maybe because there are no much of, you know, deep knowledge, you know, even in the community, it's not a big thing, but that is how many are missed that and so, and that is how we don't have a deeper truth in our lives, in our surroundings, as well. Thank you so much for the talk there. Thank you. Thank you for building. I agree fully with you. Yes. Any, any, any more sharing, any more comments or maybe if somebody has any question in the heart, which needs to be answered? No. Okay. Then all right. Okay, sir. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time. Your lecture has been really fantastic. Very informative and indeed fascinating, especially if channeled, you know, our mind as well as our hearts. There could be more people present at this time to listen to your live life, but unfortunately, I don't know, but you know, we are very few, but yes, we have taken every advantage of your presence, sir, and we are really happy for that. However, sir, I enjoyed so much. I enjoyed all the videos. Let me just share something with you that this platform of ours, that's so Dot Talks, webinar series, has been created to develop a knowledge bank with the help of online platform like YouTube. Our purpose is to create, protect, and disseminate knowledge. And that is what sir, we are doing. Your words remain safe in our, in your absence, in our absence, in the vast expanse of this virtual world. And therefore we are really fortunate to have you protection and dissemination. Sir, thank you so much. It is really does it really doesn't matter how many people are attending this talk, but what is more important that we are able to preserve your thoughts. We are able to preserve your ideas. We are able to disseminate your ideas to the other people by using the virtual platform. Sir, thank you so much for coming us. Thank you so much for joining us. And thank you for you. Thank you so much. Thank you. And God bless all of you and hope to see you in person. Thank you, sir. Thank you so much. Have a great evening. You too. Yes.