 I don't, I don't know why Dave is laughing, but podcasters around table 120 does Pandora offer anything new? We're going to talk about Pandora's finally getting into the podcast game. I think the last sort of large audio platform that has adopted podcasting, it's taken them a while. We've heard forever. So we're going to talk about that. And hopefully the goal for me is to not talk about stuff that's going to be old in two months when we get the answers to the questions we have. Hopefully we can talk about it in a way that is a little more timeless. So we will talk about sort of new platforms and what that does for podcasters, mostly us, right? The people who watch this, we tend to skew independent. If you have a show that is a massive show and you're watching and not telling us, you should let us know so you can be on the round table. But that would be podcastersroundtable.com slash guest to join us or shoot me a DM, whatever you want. But let's meet the round table. Co-hosts, Dave Jackson, welcome back. Good to be here. I was laughing. It's always great to hear what people use as a test because you just like check, check one, two. And Ray just did like this Fonzie S kind of like, hey, thing a minute ago that just, I don't know, it's picturing Ray in a leather jacket. It's just bizarre. When you do infinite number of sound checks, I think you start mixing it up. I don't know. I'm Dave Jackson from the schoolofpodcasting.com. Very cool. Daniel from the Daniel J. Lewis headquarters, his studio. Welcome back. Thank you very much. Always fun to talk. And what's this Pandora thing I've heard about? I don't know. I think they play PDF files auto-blee, something weird like that. I do like Pandora, I'm gonna say it. Anyways, all right. New round table or Dan, welcome. Thank you. Based on a true story podcast.com to my show. It's like he's been here before. I didn't even tell him, hey, make sure you mention your show. He's watched the round, that is like a test. I shouldn't have to tell you how to introduce yourself on the round table if you joined the round table. Dan, you pass. I might have heard a few episodes. Yeah, awesome. Very cool. All right, well glad to have you. And I think Dan's got a condenser microphone. Shocker, total controversy. I have, there's a lot to say about that, but I'll try to say that on my once in a blue moon podcast, podcast studio. All right. I would you want to mention a sort of PSA upfront that would be a podcast special announcement. Okay, yeah. Apple podcast holiday submission schedule. Now this isn't for this year. This happens every year. You'll get an email maybe. I don't know who, I didn't get an email. I see this through the Twitters or the other stuff. In theory, podcasters got an email. I don't know, Daniel, did everyone get this email? We're just in for, I didn't get it. It should go to everyone who has their email address registered with Apple either through their podcast connect account or through their RSS feed. I'm not sure which one, but it's most likely the podcast connect account, email address. Yeah, okay. Well, if you didn't get the email like me and you are set up properly, they said if you plan to release new shows on Apple podcasts in November or December, be aware of the falling periods of delayed submission activity. That's the 16th, in this case this year, it's the 16th through the 26th of November and December 21st through January 2nd, that is 2018 and 2019. So those dates may change in the future, but I just want to put out there to know that this happens every year. Nothing is broken. Dave's going to definitely hear about it. He's going to get tickets that things are broken at Apple. Well, the thing we have to make sure people understand is that this isn't new episodes. This is new show. So if you're getting ready to launch- They probably shouldn't use the word shows in this game. I do like the word shows, but it does, it is confusing. Yeah, because I can see people going, wait, how are my audience, I'm putting out a special Thanksgiving episode. And you're like, no, no. This is- Same thing happens if you say podcast. Right. Yeah, it's true. You should say episodes. Come on, episode. You got to say, at least maybe specify that it's not episodes. You're going to freak people out. You already have. So two things on this clarification. Yes, I just checked. It went to my Apple ID email address that I used in podcast connect. None of my email addresses that are in the RSS feeds for my podcast. So if you don't have a podcast connect account, that's why you didn't receive it. Maybe. I do. I'm laughing because back in 2005, I was using a hot mail account. So that's probably where that email went, which I haven't checked in like a decade. It says in the footer, you are receiving this email newsletter because you have submitted a podcast to Apple Podcasts. The other thing about this, that section that mentions site manager reporting, most likely, unless you have either the ability to walk on water or, well, no, let's just cut it off there. Most likely you don't have site manager. So you don't have to worry about any of that reporting stuff. That's nothing at all to do with your Lipson or a blueberry or whoever downloads stats. Nothing to do at all with your podcast connect.com stats. Site manager is something completely different. Ray pours out water onto his floor and sees if he can walk on it because I have site manager. So things are looking up for me. Not for my own for work. Anyways, yes, very few. Isn't that going away, Daniel? Did I hear something that was going away? It probably will because it is very, very old technology running it. Yeah. So another thing about this that it does happen every year, Apple Podcasts did not break. It's a holiday break for them. It's because there are actual people. This has always been the way. There are actual human beings. It's not been given order to the bots yet that put their ears on and eyes onto new submitted podcasts. I think this is cool. Especially it seems like something you wouldn't really expect from Apple that this has always been the way. Especially being the number one place that podcasts are submitted to. Do you guys like this or would you rather it be turned over to the bots so things just went through? Well, I don't mind it. I like the fact that they're giving their people some time off because you always hear about Apple and their alleged child labor in China, whatever things like that. The thing that people also need to realize is when they turn this back on January 3rd, they're going to have whatever 15 days worth of shows to there's going to be a big stockpile. So it's not like, okay, well, I'll submit my stuff on January 3rd. It'll come out January 4th. It's like, no, probably not. How many get submitted in a day? Do we have any idea how many podcasts get submitted every day? It's like, we know by the year it's like 50,000 or something crazy, right? I mean, I heard Todd Cochran say there was like a couple, he was either 8,000 or a couple of thousand a week like new shows, new podcasts. So that would be hundreds a day. So that could be, that's going to be a pile. So I'm glad I'm not one of those humans has to dig through that. It's got to be a lot of bad stuff to dig through it too. Well, I remember when Rob from Lipson said, like back in September, he was like, if you plan on starting a new show at the beginning of the year, you need to start working on it now because by the time you get everything set up and ready to go, you've got to get it in. But you know, basically in October to have it ready for January because of this whole little pause in November and December. All right, cool. Well, that's out of the way. It's your PSA, your friendly PSA here. And let's move on to some stories. The lead story is this Pandora thing. And Dan, you had this list in your story, so we'll let you lead off. But just upfront, I would say most podcasts, I don't think the independence us, our audience here, not seeing real traction on average on something like Spotify. We've kind of seen this happen already, right? Spotify and Pandora kind of equals even though Pandora is bigger, I think, from a user base. So I am curious, what do we think will be different about Pandora over Spotify, over all of it? But anyways, what is the podcast genome project? Well, the podcast genome project, I don't know that it's going to, it's not gonna revolutionize anything. I think it's just another platform. And as you mentioned kind of in the opening, one of the last major platforms to open up to podcasts. But what Pandora is claiming is that they're using their discovery platform, I'm gonna use that word, to help people find podcasts that they like. They claim there's up to 1,500 different attributes that they're using in their algorithm to determine what people's preferences are. I'm not sure how that goes into the shows, if they're actually tracking what's being said on the shows. I'm not sure how they're figuring out all those different attributes that go into them. Now I have a feeling they're gonna be pretty closed box on that. But yeah, the way I see it is it's another platform and Pandora, if there's one thing they're good at, it's discovery and it's being able to find new things to listen to. And so throwing podcasts into that mix is nothing but good, Maya's. Yeah, so Dave, what do we know, what do we currently know about the platform? I know that you can sign up, but you're not going to either get on the platform right now or even be able to listen to anything. What the heck am I signing up for? Yeah, right now, do you mean as a podcaster or as a listener? Both. Okay, well, according to James Cridlin, they have 76 million users and it's, I didn't know this, Pandora is US only. You can't get it. Only? I didn't know that. That's what he said. Well, because that brings me just to interrupt. Josh Liston said that Pandora is no longer available in Australia, so it sounds like it once was. And then I just, according to Uncle Google and theverge.com, Spotify has 83 million paid subscribers. That makes it sound like Spotify is actually bigger because it's a little more global. But I do know this, I asked Rob, and as of right now, November 15th, as I say this, the good news is Pandora is going to do pass through. They're not going to do the weird Spotify thing where they make a copy of your file which makes updating any kind of mistakes an absolute nightmare. So wait, how are they going to put ads on my podcast then? Because we know they're going to do that, right? It's going to be pre-roll then, I guess? I would guess, pre-roll, post-roll. Kind of like Stitcher. Pandora does, right? I was going to say exactly. Pandora does it now. Like if you're not on premium, you're right. Yeah, so I think that's going to be it. And from what I understand is, like I'm actually in their beta group. Like when the floodgates open in December and people can listen on their phone, that's the other thing. They're going to, you're going to be able to see them in December on your phone only, which is a bummer because I listen on my computer when I do listen. And that's when you'll actually start to get some listeners. That's when you'll, at least whoever, you'll be findable. And that's where I'm dying to see. I was hoping somebody was going to leak a screenshot from a development team or something like to see exactly how it's going to be. Because right now you go in, you have all these stations and you can, like if you listen to a song, like if I listen to whatever, Cardi B, and it'll say, okay, do you want to listen to Cardi B radio? And it takes that on a song. So it's going to be interesting to see if I listen to Ray Ortega because, okay, if you want to listen to Ray Ortega radio and it's going to find similar shows to yours. So that's, to me, I'm excited. I know I heard one person that was upset because they're running ads on our content and we get, as far as I know, zero. Welcome to Stitcher. Yeah, exactly. To me it's another version of Stitcher. And Overcast. And Overcast. I don't know, Daniel, what are your thoughts? I have no problem with ads between content. They are not stitching in ads. They are not inserting ads. They're not changing your content. They may put ads between episodes or I don't know, well, I don't know. They might do something like pause the playback of an episode and play an ad and then resume the playback of the episode. I could see them doing that since episodes are longer than songs. But I'm thinking about the listening experience where you look at Pandora the way you use it for free is you can skip five songs per hour. After that, you can't skip anymore. You can only change stations. So what happens if you're listening to a podcast? Nope, next podcast. Nope, next podcast, next podcast, next podcast. Oh, now I'm forced to listen to this one on this station because I can't skip anymore. Do you upgrade to $5 a month? That's how they finally got me. I wanted to skip ads finally. Hey, Dan, you said that this brings up the D word. Discoverability, you said in the podcast industry you keep hearing that discoverability isn't an issue but you've had a lot of issues with that yourself so you're not sold on that, which is awesome. So what do you think? Why are you not sold? Why do you think that discovery is not an issue? I think because everybody has different preferences. I liken it to something like Netflix where they just add so much more content. I can search for a topic on Netflix. That doesn't mean I'm gonna like the show on it. I can find a tech show, a podcast about podcasting. I can search and find a podcast on anything but because podcasts are so reliant on the style of the show, the host likeability, just how it's done just because the topic is covered might be something I'm interested in doesn't mean it's something I'm gonna keep listening to and I think that's really where as there's more and more shows that get created, discoverability is only going to become a bigger issue because that just widens the number of hosts, the number of different styles and as more people start listening, different people have different preferences and they're gonna wanna find things that they like. So when you're saying that discovery is an issue for you, are you saying from you as a consumer perspective? Yes, as podcasts that I listen to, when I search for something, there may be a number of shows on any given topic that I'm searching for and I can find those topics covered but that doesn't necessarily mean that any of them are shows that I end up continuing to listen to because for whatever reason I don't like the style, the audio quality isn't very good. I listen to shows a lot while I'm commuting and so if I can't understand what they're saying as I'm driving down the road, then I'm not gonna be listening to it. I think there's a lot of different variables that go into play that doesn't necessarily equate just because I can find a show, means that I'm going to listen to that show. So I think Pandora is trying to fix, I mean, fix, but they're trying to work on this in a way that it presents shows that you are more likely to like. I'll tell you what, they do have some type of magic fairy dust when it comes to music, because it works really well. The way YouTube has almost mastered recommending stuff you might wanna see, Pandora does a pretty good job at this too. Now, I don't know if this is part of, I have a couple of points here from Paul Colligan from the podcast report and he mentions that they quality scoring. So I don't know how they'll score quality. I imagine this is part of that genome project. They have markers to score quality. He says, thank YouTube. What would YouTube be without quality scoring? So they must use it too. And he says if they, he says he likes that because it'll force everyone, including Apple podcasts to bring quality scoring into podcast search. So I don't, do you guys, Daniel, do you know any more about quality scoring? Not on the Pandora side, but on the YouTube side, I would think it has to do with retention on the videos. Yeah, length, right? Now you could do that with podcasts, right? Length of listen. And certainly they're going to have a user profile of you. So, I mean, again, we always talk about or always mention how Apple knows that you've been listening to XYZ. So they say you might like the show. And I think that's a very basic thing that they're using to surface that. But in this case, somehow they're gonna be able to score a podcast that is, I don't know, maybe through transcription, they can kind of figure out what the context is of the content and like shows that you're listening to. I don't know. I think it probably has to do with metadata and transcription and stuff like that. Yeah, where Apple is on, we could call it a level one of relationships between podcasts where they're simply looking at people who subscribed to this, also subscribed to that. And if there's a lot of that similarity between the audiences, then most likely these two podcasts are related in some way, even if they're completely not. So for example, you could be looking at an Apple podcast for podcasters roundtable. And if enough of our subscribers subscribed to this and subscribed to the learn how to speak Russian podcast, then the learn how to speak Russian podcast would be listed as you might also like or listeners also subscribe to underneath podcasters roundtable because it's that just a very surface level one thing. I think Google with Google podcast has the potential to be a level two where they're looking at the metadata of the podcast and their experience with search and connecting things there. So they can see that people who subscribed to these podcasts that have these keywords seem to be related. So therefore these podcasts because they share these keywords and many subscribers must also be related. And so if you search for this particular keyword these other podcasts might be related to that. I think Google is a master at that and we'll probably see that in Google podcasts. They already have that in a little bit. Whereas Pandora though, I think is taking this potentially further. I'd like to see how they can scale this with the amount of content there is in podcasting. But Pandora seems like instead of looking at only the metadata or only that level one stuff, Pandora is kind of a level three where they would be looking at what describes the content. Now this is all theoretical right now but this is the idea behind the music genome project that Pandora uses is that a particular song is described with these keywords based on studies and stuff. It has these instruments. It has this beat pattern. It has a female lead voice. It has this style about these themes. So if they can do that with podcasts I think that could be really cool but getting to that point I don't know with over 500,000 podcasts and at this very minute I have a program running to actually count exactly how many podcasts there are but with over 500,000 podcasts and then hundreds of episodes, that's a lot of data. My other question is, okay so maybe this is one of the benefits of being in Pandora, right? We gotta make these trade-offs like hey they're gonna run advertising on my show but it's a new platform exposing me to tens of millions of new listeners. Potentially this isn't working out for most of us on Spotify. They're not finding us but this is probably less for the people who already listen to podcasts and more about getting new people to listen to podcasts because I know I'm not gonna switch my app and I use Pandora, I'm probably not gonna start maybe because I'm not, I'm not going to do that. So most people aren't gonna switch apps. They're not looking for a new place to consume if they're already consuming podcasts but if you're in Pandora, my thing is if I'm in Pandora listening to music you better not put any podcasts in front of me during a music session. I just don't care. But Paul also mentions that if they add a podcast wizard so actually we mentioned this I think it was on the last round he was on and it's sort of a tell us what you like we'll find podcasts that match. He thinks they'll be number two beating Spotify six months after release if they're able to do that. So I think that would be interesting if you were able to tell it, I don't know, he had a good example go watch the last round but if you're able to basically say hey I'm kind of looking for this thing as opposed to typing it I guess maybe even typing it but it would sort of crawl its database and find and do a good job at surfacing stuff that's relevant to you because a lot of people was it the recent Edison or something people they said that people don't they don't know where to start or they don't know what's out there for them or something like that. They don't know why they're like if they know how they don't know why like nobody's going up saying what do you mean you're not listening to podcasts? So I was looking at my Pandora account like many other Apple they know what year I was born and my zip code All classic rock for Dave. Yeah, that's it. Exactly. The other thing I did notice that I haven't connected if I wanted to I could connect my Facebook and Twitter account I'm assuming so I could share stuff but I'm like I don't want any Facebook data in this stuff because now they're gonna know everything about me and that that could be I doubt they're planning on using that to do that but I just was like hmm that could make things interesting if they're reading Facebook data. Well maybe I mean you have to think that this is maybe one of the advantages that Google has is they have Google and they have what you've searched on Google and then that I don't know I don't know YouTube seems to be pretty separate but if they've used that at all in helping them surface what you would like on YouTube I mean they're using some kind of magic because I just sit there and watch the next thing they just put in front of my face. I had the weirdest Google experience today somebody on Facebook said whatever song is number one when you're 14 is supposed to somehow shape your life. I had the tiger Dave. No, I actually do you think I'm sexy by Rod Stewart. Oh disco, you didn't like that song. Yeah, so I go to type it in and it literally like I'm like number one song and it like it goes 1979 I'm like wait how did it know that that's like 14 years I was like you gotta be kidding me. It does a lot. Yeah, so that was just one of those where I'm like Google knows way too much about me so that which again should make things interesting the better they know us the better. I better get something out of this. Right. I'm just wanting good podcast and good music. That's it. Keep us happy while you're giving over to the bots and there was an interesting line to add to kind of to what Daniel was talking about with how they're being able to surface some of this in the Verge article about Project Genome. They mentioned that Pandora claims that it's using a natural language processing that's clever enough to identify the podcast topics on an individual episode level allowing you to dip into a gaming podcast for a single episode on your favorite game, for example which means if they're processing the information in each episode they might not even surface podcasters round table as an entire show but maybe just this single episode and that just adds another level of data based on however many podcasts there are out there if they're doing it on an episode level and then processing I'm assuming some sort of a almost a transcription type aspect. Yeah, which I think is fantastic because it could, that's the thing of podcasts is there's oftentimes, especially gosh we're gonna talk more about there's more than just interview podcasts. But well that rumor is we're gonna actually find out. I don't do interviews. Well, I do like two or three this is like a pseudo interview. So you might want to hear that one interview with Rod Stewart and why the heck he even wrote that song. And that's it. You don't really wanna subscribe to that podcast but I would love the opportunity for individual episodes to be exposed to a new audience and then they say, oh, they may even they might check out one round table and then of course they're going to hear about several other podcasts from the people on the round table and they might jump off and go, listen to school podcast thing or Dan's podcast, who knows? So I think that's, we're talking about what do we think will be different? It sounds like there's an opportunity that they may be trying something different, which I hope because otherwise it is it's just another platform. Is that enough reason? I think I wrote in the sort of tease to this round is that's probably enough reason alone is the fact that you're just gonna get in front of a whole new audience. And I think again, that whole idea of growing podcast audience which is something Rob Greenley always talks about this is great for that potentially. But again, I mean, I don't know if anyone here is seeing real traction on Spotify. Do you think shows that are on music platforms that aren't really music related? I mean, are we seeing much uptake? Do you think it's worth? It's always worth being there because it doesn't cost you anything per se. But I don't know, what do you guys think about podcast on music platforms? Now that we have two and I think Google used to be wrapped in with their music. The big thing is why they love our content. A, because everybody's now talking about Pandora and Spotify. We don't, you don't have to pay us any royalties. Even though the royalties they pay on Spotify are dismal we're still free content. All you have to do is in their case they're silly enough to host our files for us which is silly. But I think that's the big thing is we're cheap content. But if no one's listening, what is that good, what good does that do for them? I know Rob has talked about this and I've seen this. It seems to be shows that are aimed at a little younger demographic and like comedy shows for whatever reason seem to do really well over there. But I know there was just an article on Rolling Stones saying, will podcasting save Pandora? Cause apparently they're losing money. And I'm looking at an article right now at seekingalpha.com from February of this year explaining how Pandora lost 41 million the first quarter of this year. And I'm like, maybe that's why they're doing this or try anything to get, we just need more people over here. Cause as we mentioned earlier, the more annoying they can make the experience the better the chance that people will then upgrade to the premium version for, what is the premium version? 10 bucks? You can do $5 for no no ads, which is what I do. Then 10 bucks actually lets you do a Spotify like experience where you can, I just found this out by accident. You can actually say, I actually want to hear that song. But anyways, we won't sell it here cause we're not getting any money. But I know that in the beginning, so right now we talked about sort of what do we know? And we'll know more of all these, a lot of the questions we've asked will be answered, but they're not inclusive in the podcast that they are letting them to the platform in the beginning. So they're not letting all podcasts, right? I know that the blueberry team is probably very unhappy because they don't have a partnership with them currently. This Spotify did this too. That's all changed. Anyone can be on Spotify now. So it won't matter so much in six months. I mean, they could have other implications for those individual businesses. I don't know, but what do you think about this sort of limited access? Actually, one of the podcasts I have at work is one of, I'm assuming, I think I've heard something like a 450 podcasts are gonna be there in the very beginning. They've invited like that many podcasts. We're one of those, but I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong, Dave, there's too many D's today. It's all Dan's and Dave's, I'm really confused here. Dave, you do have a relationship, Lipson. So what do you know about how many podcasts are gonna be available? That I don't know. That's the first time I've actually heard a number. I just realized I'm in there and I was very happy. The School of Podcasting is gonna be in the initial, now is that separate from, did they invite you separately or is that a Lipson thing? That is Rob coming to me going, do you wanna be in Pandora, I went up. Yeah, so that was a, that's kind of a Lipson thing, I would think of this one. Well, I mean, Rob is sort of... Well, and the nice thing, I mean, Rob's been working on this since 2012. Right. He's been, you know, and it's just, anytime you work with these big companies, it's always a treat. We've heard forever about this, but took them forever for whatever reason. Well, yeah, and from what he said in the feed, you get it this close to launching or whatever, and then the person you're working with gets transferred or whatever. I'm not downloading your app, by the way. I was really annoyed by that whole go download. I get it. You're getting a lot of people to download the feed app, but I'm not doing it, Rob. It's not happening. Yeah. Dave would tell us everything. I also found that, and I have the app, it's on like screen number seven. And I was like, wait, where is it? I'm not doing it. You know your marketing play. All right, well, so there's, it's not inclusive. Not every podcast that exists, and Spotify again did this as well. It seemed to have worked really well. People were just clamoring, which is a ha-ha joke to a company that doesn't no longer exist. Clamoring to be on Spotify, Dave knows is very well. That's sort of creating this, the scarcity, right? The scarcity model, and people just want to be on. Everyone's going to want to be on Pandora too. Well, I have a question. Yeah, they are. I can hear the feet scampering now as they do that. But Ray, since you listen to Pandora all the time, how much new music do you discover on Pandora? You know, that now it's a great question because oftentimes I feel like they're not exposing me. It's all, it is a lot of stuff that I know, but a lot of it is my own fault because within a few bars of a new song, I'm like, nah, thumbs down. I got to give myself a chance. I'm a bad music listener. So I don't know how much, they expose me to more live stuff from bands I like that I would have never heard. That's always interesting. Their live catalog is interesting. So yeah, I don't think they expose me to a ton. They have to be careful, right? Because they want to make you sure you're liking what you get, but. Because that's me. I have a couple of channels now where it's almost getting boring. It's the same, it's the same stuff over and over and over to where I'm like, and then I start listening to another channel and then doing a little thumbs up, thumbs down just to kind of say, hey, I do like other stuff too. Yeah, and the thing with podcasts is sampling podcasts is tough, right? Dan, how do you find new podcasts? Or do you even, how do you find new podcasts? Usually it's from recommendations either in Facebook groups or, or like, you know, podcasters round table, see who's on there and just try them out and listen to a few episodes. We're a discovery engine. We've solved it here on the round table. We don't need Pandora. We have our own round table genome project. So, I mean, so with that, gosh, I don't even know what I was talking about. I mean, as far as finding new podcasts, podcasts aren't easy to sample. It's not like music. I don't know. I mean, first of all, you got 30 seconds almost of an intro. Almost every podcast is gonna take a couple of minutes to get into the content. Maybe you tease the content. Maybe I haven't some idea then, but I don't know. Do you guys, how often do you guys sample? Dave doesn't count because he's got the radio show. He's constantly sampling new shows, but Daniel, I don't know, maybe you sample shows too, but as a, as a, someone who's looking for it, do you ever say, hey, I want a new podcast? When I run out of podcasts to listen to, yes. Or when I run out of a particular kind of podcast, when I've caught up on all of the episodes, then I might go looking for, where's another podcast to fill this time? How do you, and then what's your approach to that? I ask people, I don't search. Unless it's something that is specific and niche, then I will search and I always find something. So don't think search is broken. But if, for example, several weeks ago, I posted in the podcast movement Facebook group asking for comedy podcast recommendations and asking people to rate on a scale of one to five, the amount of profanity or the heaviness of profanity in the podcast, because not only was I looking for new comedy podcasts to try, and I don't like extremely explicit stuff, but I also wanted to know podcasts that I could recommend to other people. So if I saw that a lot of people recommended this particular podcast, even if it wasn't for me, I would be able to say to someone else, a lot of my friends like this podcast, maybe you should try this. Yeah, and so I was doing, I've tried the interview technique of just let it be quiet and the stone would fill the dead air, but it just didn't happen. Oh my goodness, I'm reading notes. Dave, if there's anything from the chat, definitely grab that from us. But Daniel, I guess related question or Dan, whoever, do you imagine that having podcasts just sort of put in front of you would be a way that would be something you'd enjoy? I mean, do you think that, do you think Pandora is gonna be successful with what we know so far? I mean, it's hard because everyone consumes different. We can't assume for someone else. Maybe if we put ourselves in the mindset of a non-podcast listener, they'd be like, oh, what is this stuff? These are people talking, this is crazy. Well, the thing I guess I'm confused on is, okay, Pandora puts podcasters around table in front of me and I go, oh, I like that show. Do I have to wait for it to come back on again to listen to it? Or am I, you know- No, wait, I'm sure you could just subscribe. There's gotta be a way to go, yeah, let's get this out of the hole as they love this phrase. It's a lean back experience. Okay, well, how do I take the lean back experience and make it a sit-up experience because I want that now? That's the part that I'm, I mean, I'm all four of IK, put my stuff in front of people and see if I like it. But like- Let's hope they don't say upgrade to premium if you wanna choose the episodes you wanna listen to because that's really what you have to do now. If you wanna pick songs off an album, you have to be on premium, but they want this to be successful. There's no way that they're going to hide that from you or put it behind a paywall. If they do, forget it. And they're gonna have a hard enough time as it is. So paywall it and it's over. Maybe that's why they're lending in a limited amount initially to figure a lot of that stuff out because as you bring up, there's some things that have to change on their platform to go from music to podcasts in order to implement a lot of that. On the technical side, just, you know, that functionality, who knows if they have that sort of stuff readily available. All right, well, there's probably more here. I mean, Paul also thinks that, what do you say? If Pandora Music opens up self-serve ads option for podcasters, he says he'll be investing in SiriusXM, which by the way, I bought SiriusXM whenever they launched like 10 years ago at like, I don't know, 10 cents a share. It's my most successful stock ever, even though it was up at like the peak, it was up really high and it's gone way back down. So I am all for it. I'm rooting for this. It's one of those buy it and forget it type things, but I do have, I was there when they merged companies. I didn't do anything either. I wish I held on to my stock too. Oh, you had some too? That's cool. Yeah, actually every stock I had is doing really well now, but then again, I cashed out to buy my house. So it was a fair check. Oh, also worth it. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, self-serve ad options. I don't know what that means, but I guess it means we pick from a pool of ads. We say, I'll take that one. Or does he mean where we could do ads? Like, how can I advertise my podcast? Like overcast? Yeah, like overcast, that would be interesting. I mean, overcast, I feel like it was something new because we've seen it, but yes, they should do that. I do love whatever cast is doing that way. Now that would be interesting. And so much of this depends on what that experience is actually like and that experience could change after they release this a couple of months later, they may change it, but maybe instead of hearing an ad for your podcast, your podcast is inserted into the queue of someone else's station if it matches on certain keywords that you purchase. That could be interesting. Could it be something if it self-serve ads, almost something like Hulu does where some of them you get to choose between do you wanna watch this ad or do you wanna do a smaller ad or do you wanna have some shorter ones throughout? Well, I was thinking self-serve ads is more for the advertiser, right? Was that the context of when it was mentioning it? I don't know, Paul just said if they open up self-serve ads option for podcasters. Okay, yeah, then that would be for the advertiser. Yeah, okay. Here's a question. Do they have to have this right out of the gate? Have what? Do they have to hit it out of the park? Like, wow, look at this experience. Because the reason I asked that is for me, the Google podcast app was so almost not an app at all that I was like, and when I hear, I'm like, hey, Google now does Chromecast. I'm like, it was just like, call me when you get downloads, kids, and I'll think about it. So to me, I'm like, if they come out and they just lay an egg, I mean, how many strikes do we give platforms? It doesn't help, obviously, but I think I still feel like the major advantage now, I don't know, they probably need a lot of people to listen for it to work for them. For us, it's just about always being put up in front of someone who maybe hasn't heard of podcast before and will like our content. And that is kind of apples and oranges because Google podcasts didn't have a pre-made audience of 76 million people. It makes me wonder if they're trying to get new people to come to Pandora, or if they're just trying to keep people from leaving Pandora to keep them on their platform. It is, that's certainly at some level a competition, like staying up with your competition, right? Spotify, they have to offer the same thing. So, because what if people who were on Spotify, or people who were on Spotify and discovered podcasts, anyways, yeah, you don't want people someone going, hey, they're like, oh, I'm gonna use Spotify now because it's got podcasts and music. Even though I feel like the platforms are different from music, so you'd get different, I use them for different reasons, but yeah, it's interesting. I mean, obviously they have to keep up. Yeah, it does make you wonder, I guess, is the, are we big enough, everyone? Okay, so since they are sort of one of the last big platforms, as we say, to bring on podcasting, are we that good? Like, are we that, are we the future? Because these platforms keep, does that say something about podcasting that these companies keep wanting podcasting? It doesn't care, anchor switch their platform to be podcasting, SoundCloud added podcasting. Two things we're not big fans of, but these companies all are getting into it. We know Audible has tried to do something they call podcasting. I mean, like forever. I don't know, I'm just wondering if it's good for the medium. I think they're trying to provide more value to their current base. Are we just hot? They're trying to become the ultimate base for audio entertainment. Yeah. I think Dave hit on it with its content that you don't have to pay licensing to. And I don't have it in front of me, but I remember reading somewhere recently that, you know, Spotify, I don't think they've really ever made a profit. I think they make most of the money that they make just goes back to licensing a lot of that music. And they don't have to do that anymore with, well, I mean, they still do for music, but you know, on the podcast side, it's a lot cheaper content. If they can make it work, it would work really well. And that's actually why Apple, or one of the biggest reasons why Apple started having the Apple podcast catalog and iTunes back in 2005 anyway was because iTunes gave them free audio content that would allow them to put the iTunes store in, I think it was 118 locales at that point or something like that. So not the full 155 we have now, but it was podcasts were what allowed them to do that. And that was a big strategic play for them. And maybe Pandora sees that now too. And maybe Pandora, since Pandora right now is apparently you at United States only, maybe this is them doing the same kind of thing that by having podcasts in Pandora, they'll be able to open Pandora up to an international audience. And then, oh, this could be brilliant for them. Like maybe they discover, okay, we've got thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people in the United Kingdom listening to podcasts in Pandora. So, hey, BMI, Sony, Azcap, all of these music licensing companies. Hey, look, if you allow us to license the music into these other countries, there's a built-in audience right there already. So this could be really Pandora following in Apple's footsteps. Only 13 years later, huh? And in a quite a smarter way, in a way. I mean, technology-wise smarter. And according to their Wikipedia page, as of August 1st, 2017, the service operated by Pandora Media Incorporated is available only in the United States. So Dave, being Ellipsen Insider, what do you know that we haven't hit on yet? Or what do you podcasters need to know if they're interested? I believe, did Rob say to email him if you want on the list? If you're on Ellipsen, I think that's it. If you wanna do it now at this time, I'm sure by the time most of you hear this, it'll just be their own dashboard. Cause Spotify now does that too. Hey, let me ask, let's just divert. Did that screw anything up? Well, the way Spotify did it, which apparently Pandora, he's be doing that now too, right? Is they're saying, oh, here's the way you get in. And then eventually they open up their own portal and then what are we doing when they do that? Speaking as Dave Jackson from the School of Podcasting, not speaking for Ellipsen, but for me, I mean, first of all, I love the fact that Spotify does this thing where they're only letting in a few people and they literally were rejecting 90%, if not 95% of those people. Cause the people you really wanna make upset are people with microphones. That's a good strategy. Then they open up the floodgates and but you still have to go through media hose. And my favorite one is when they launched this new portal where you can submit your own stuff. So now we literally, I deal with this on a, almost a daily basis where somebody's in Spotify twice, even though we're all like, no, no, if you're in Ellipsen, if you're in blueberry, you don't need to resubmit. And then my favorite is if you do submit to the Spotify portal, you get better stats. And we're like, hey, Spotify, what's up? How come you have better stats? And we've been there here the whole time being your human punching bag. And it's just something they gotta put into their API and we're ready for it. And so I'm hoping Pandora learns from that. Now in the meantime, we've gone through some growing pains with Spotify and there are some people that are getting a lot of traffic. And Rob always quotes how it's number two. That's really with, I forget the last time you said it, like not everybody's in Spotify. And so it'd be really interesting if everybody did, however you want to submit, if you're in Ellipsen, just go in and fill out the destination. And it takes like a day if that. How are you getting this number two number? Where does it come from? That's from Rob at Ellipsen. Yeah, but what is it? It's the amount of consumption that's happening of podcasts on Spotify. What you guys are seeing peen back to you. Yeah, so yeah, basically he goes in and he runs, we have a user agent basically, and I think he's somehow, he must be adding up the stats, the total number of stats, and then the total number of... The drop it involves a mean somewhere. Yeah, exactly. And so he's just saying that I think number three is overcast. I'd have to go back and listen to the feed. It's usually, because it used to be Stitcher. Stitcher was number two. It's funny because Stitcher by becoming number two, which was sort of open for, it feels like a long time because the zoom blew it and they could have been, Microsoft should be number two, but anyways, well, that's a joke in itself, but Stitcher sort of won this. Like in our minds, they won the hearts and minds by being, you're like, oh, I thought Stitcher was number two, because that's why I heard that Stitcher was number two all the time. I don't want to be number two, by the way. This is starting to sound as it comes out of my mouth. Being number two, maybe not as good as number three. Anyways, being number two doesn't mean much, right? I mean, I guess it does translate to big numbers, but it's such a small percentage compared to Apple Podcast. Yeah, the thing that's always interesting, it's always like Apple was somewhere between whatever, 60 to 70%. And it's probably closer to 70, 80, if you add Apple Podcast, anti-tunes and all that. And then it's always like, and then you jump down to number two, which is Spotify, which is a much smaller number than number one. Yeah, and then when you go to number three, it's minuscule. I'm talking like 3%. Yeah, it's so like, yeah. So it's Spotify is, Apple's so far ahead, then Spotify is number two, and it's way ahead of number three, but it's just, yeah. So it'll be interesting to see with another legitimate player involved, really what happens there. That's my whole thing. I can't just wait for it to, it's gonna be like Christmas, man, in December. We're gonna have some more, we'll have more stats to obsess over. Daniel, why do you think Apple holds its strong lead, or why do you think that, is this just a bunch of people who've always been listening to podcasts, and we're not really growing the audience. So they're just us on the podcast app. I don't listen to the podcast app, so. I think it's because Apple has been the dominant, easiest way to consume podcasts for a while. So that was kind of just the de facto thing. Plus, because of that, podcasters have kind of shot themselves in the foot by pushing iTunes or Apple podcasts so much so that people who have an Android device say, oh, I don't have iTunes on my Android smartphone. I can't listen to podcasts. So it's kind of a self-creating problem. Yeah, and I mean, it helps to be first. Well, and then that's always one of the things that because Apple came on first, and exactly what Daniel said, then everybody promoted it. And I still go to websites now where somebody will hire me, they're like, I'm not getting enough downloads. How can I grow my audience? I go to their website, there's one button. And I'm like, you do know that 80% of the people on that side of the pond have Androids, and you have no button for them, zero. And I'm like, so there's super low hanging fruit. And then you send your invoice, pay me. That's it. Easiest job ever. Here's a badge. I'm gonna give you this nice, shiny badge I created. It took me hours. It says Google Pod. Just use it. Yeah. Pay me. We're just snake oil salesmen, Dave. It's just all we are. We're old field guard. Yeah, exactly. All right, well, any nay say, besides, I know Todd's very unhappy with the way the launch is going. Any other reasons why we don't like this? Anything not to like the Pandora's adding podcast? I just, it seemed, it's been inevitable for so long. You know, unlike Anchor, which we have real issues with, where we say absolutely don't. Any reasons why we wouldn't submit to Pandora or any other things that you see besides not being inclusive that we don't really care for? Criticisms, punching bags. Well, you're always gonna have those people like, I need a percentage of the ads. Right. You know, you're getting rich off my back. Well, okay. But if you're promoting your own product or your own service or whatever, or you're promoting your Patreon on that, you know, you're still getting the- Be your own ad. Yeah, exactly. Apple may not be putting direct ads in, but they're doing all right. Yeah. Pretty much every platform, and they make money. That's the thing you gotta do it. All right, so everyone- Well, that's what I'm waiting for. I'm waiting for ads so that I can, in the Apple podcast app, I want them to do the overcast. Put little ads at the bottom. I was playing with the Apple podcast app. If you haven't played with that in a while, it's really confusing now. I remember when that used to be so- And I was like, what? I was like, somebody asked me to find that website link. And it used to be, listen to the episode, you scroll to the very bottom. And there it was. And it took me like four tries. I was like, oh, there it is. How'd you get there? And I'm like, I have no idea. I don't. But there it is. Yeah. Let me retrace my steps and write it down as I go leave some Reese's pieces. Let's try to squeeze in another story. Dan, you're the guest. Podcast success, a long game. I did, I have this in a browser tab along with 50 other browser tabs open, sucking all my resources to read. What is this about? Cause I was interested. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's some stats. The author of this pulled a bunch of stuff from, I believe the Cast Box directory, but the one that really stood out to me was the stat that said half of all podcasts have 14 or fewer episodes. And I always remember from hearing, like the feed and such that are, pod fading that term tends to be seven. And so this was the first time I've seen that number change and double if that's kind of what that number indicates. And so I was just kind of throwing it out there as what does that mean? If that number doubles, is that a good thing? Is that, what does that mean for podcasting overall? If now pod fading is 14, is it the barrier to entry is lower with talking about anchor and how it's so much easier to create podcasts now? Or is it that there's just, it's getting better. There's people are actually doing it for longer before burning out. Daniel, did you, or Dave, did you even want to read this article? I did, I left a comment out the bottom. I said, I would love to know the media host that probably rhymes with canker that shows how many of these that have one episode. And so, cause when you're not paying for hosting, you have no skin in the game, it doesn't matter if you have one episode or 10. But it's not kind of thing with pod, I mean, isn't that one of the reasons why pod fading is so prolific is that it really doesn't take anything to start a podcast, right? In theory, it could all be done for free. And so the barrier to entry, and it don't want to say, you know what, that kind of sucks, go work on it and come back, right? There's no gatekeeper. So it's easy to try. You're gonna see a lot of failure. And by failure, I mean, just people say, forget it, might not be a failure, don't want to do it. Well, that's the thing that, not to go back to the Pandora discussion, we're kind of, but that's the thing I wonder if they never open up the floodgates, or if they have a submission page, are they gonna look at that and go, I'm sorry, Binky Lee and the Wiz, your audio is horrible, and you dropped the F-bomb 13 times in eight seconds. No, that'll be interesting to see if there is any kind of approval process. Right, we talked about, I talked about how Apple puts human ears and eyes on every podcast, but they don't, they're filtering for more technical stuff, right? Like using artwork that doesn't have their products in it, or profanity in the titles and stuff like that, or not labeled explicit stuff like that, and stuff that's their specs, but they're not really saying the sound sucks, not yet at least. You know, that could be interesting. I mean, to me, I don't know, I feel like I built a brand on quality. So I'm like, yeah, do some curation of quality, but that's so subjective. Well, and the other reason I say that is there are people that, hey, they'll look at Libsyn, they'll be like, hey, I've done this show for four years. I think we're done with it. Is there any way we can put it on pause? And I'm like, all media hosting is like the electric company. You don't pay your bill, you don't get electricity. So if you don't pay your media hosting, we quit hosting your stuff. And I'll say, go down to the $5 a month plan, and you'll be amazed at how many people go, hmm, I don't know, five bucks. And I'm like, okay, well, you know, so again, this is why I go back to, I wonder if it's these free sites where they go, I'm done with this show, and they just walk away because, well, you know, there's absolutely zero skin in the game. Wouldn't that drive the number down now? Lower than kind of the average number of seven overall, instead of being 14, would drive the number down or less? That's just a number I remember hearing. Average, or even the mean. It was, the way I think I remember Todd Cochran originally saying it was most podcasts don't make it beyond the seventh episode. Yeah. Okay. And so to say that the average is 14, that's a completely different number. Okay, I was remembering it as being the average was seven, but. Yeah, I don't think it is. And now the number, like Todd shared a new number at Podcast Movement, and he said the new number is three. Most podcasts don't make it past three episodes. Wow. And again, that's a different number from average. Well, that one makes sense with what you're saying, Dave, about just the barrier to entry being a lot lower and make it past three, because you don't have any skin in the game. Yeah, so whereas somebody who doesn't, you know, they make it to whatever number and they cancel their account, eventually that feed is gonna get pulled out of Apple because, or does it, Daniel? If my feed goes dead. Yeah, it gets pulled. Yeah, so eventually that's not gonna be in there, which would then, in theory, I realize this particular article is based on Cast Box, but that would potentially pull it out of any kind of statistics for that type of article. So, Dan, what else does this say? I mean, it's just saying about a long game. It's just saying that, hey, you kind of like, all these pod-fated shows are these shows that have less than 14 episodes. They kind of gave up on it, right? They said, oh, this didn't do what I thought it was gonna do. Probably, I mean, or it's just, it's hard. I mean, let's face it, it's hard to keep going. I don't know why, you know, if you're a massive success, whatever that is to you, makes you go keep going, but... Yeah, well, they were kind of making the point of the flip side of that where the most successful shows have a lot of episodes. So they have a little count on there of Joe Rogan having 1,300 episodes, stuff you should know, you know, over 1,100. And again, that's being in Cast Box, and I know some of them, I wanna say, I don't listen to Joe Rogan, but stuff you should know, I know some of them are kind of just archived on their own site. So I don't know if that's pulling that in or not, but the point that this article is making that to be successful in podcasts, it's a long-term thing. You have to stick it out. Revolutionary statement here by these guys. Something we've always talked about forever, right? Like the obvious, but it is, you know, more people hear it, the better. People realizing, especially now, like I said, our podcast hot, people come in and they're thinking, my goodness, I gotta have a podcast. Well, yeah, you think of like with Pandora, if that's opening up to more people that aren't familiar with podcasts, and then they wanna create their own, you know, a lot of, I see this all the time where people, oh, it's so easy to create a podcast. And then once they realize how much work it is, and I'm not nearly on the level that you guys are, but just in, you know, seeing it in various Facebook groups and stuff like that, they're like, oh, wow, this actually takes, you know, five hours of work a week or 10 hours of work a week. And, you know, yeah, it takes a lot of work to put something together that's quality. And once they realize that, they start to either drop off or dig in and then they have the skin in the game and hopefully become successful. Well, people leave too, because they don't have big numbers or what they think are big numbers, right? Yeah, they get that and they see, wow, I've got 23 listeners, then when you're expecting two hundred. Why did you start is my question? Like, I mean, I started because I just wanted to speak into this darn thing and share, but so, you know, the audience is secondary in terms of how much there is. I mean, if a couple of people are listening, awesome. But I guess people just, I don't know what they want from it. Maybe, you know, we've seen lately a lot of YouTubers are going to podcasts, big YouTubers. And they're seeing the same thing, you know, I guess they're seeing that like, I need massive audience. I make a living on YouTube. It's because I have a massive audience and that goes with ads. We also, you don't just start a podcast and necessarily have ads per se, unless you go with third party offering. So, you know, I guess maybe more of it too is that, I mean the YouTube, YouTube probably has some effect on that. In terms of fulfilling prophecy, maybe two of, so many people talk about downloads and talk about subscribers. And that seems to kind of be the numbers that are spread around in the entire community. And so, if you're new and you jump into these communities, start learning how to do things, and those are the numbers you see, that must be what success is. And that kind of changes that. Yeah, and that's, I think for some of the smaller shows that are still going, you know, three years later, to me, I usually hear a hint of service in the host. Either I'm serving them by giving them information they can't get anyplace else, or I'm helping them do something or things like that, where, and not that YouTubers aren't, they're serving their audience many times, trying to make them laugh. But that, again, is kind of a way of service. It's their passion. I think it's the people, I still say, people that get into podcasting to make money quickly are the people, typically, if I was gonna paint with a really wide brush, those are the people that make it to episode seven. They've put out close to a hundred bucks, if not more. They're not seeing anybody come in. They get their first stats. They see 28 downloads, and they're like, oh, forget it. And they just drop the mic and walk away. So, could be. Awesome. I think we can cram on more in here. This is my favorite part of the show, because now I don't, it doesn't matter if I leave big gaps, and there's only the hardcore left listening. So, they're just enjoying. Literally, the campfire is low. We're almost out of beer. Like anyone who hasn't gone into the tent to go to the bed right now. Whoa, there was beer, nobody told me. So, I need to make that more public. I'm always gonna bring, beverage of choice. I bring two. I bring water and a beer. But yes, if you're on the round table, bring your favorite beverage. But yeah, so anyway, so it's just us. It's just friends. Gather round friends, let's get warm. I'm the only one. I'm in California, and I'm the one with the jacket on. If you're watching YouTube.com slash podcast, this round table, you'd know that. And you'd also say that seemed ridiculous. Got all these East Coast types. I'm not East Coast, Midwest, East Coast. I don't know. What do they call you guys? Yeah. Midwestern. Yeah, Midwestern. Okay, all right. I'm the one that's cold. But it was completely softened by fire here in California. We can't go outside. We're selling Dan the pre-show. Can't even breathe my own air right now, but anyways, different subject. So, but that is the easy part. I have it easy here, not just staying indoors. Everyone else is at a lot rougher, way too close to home. But if you're affected by the fire, I am very sorry. Eight types of podcast formats. Yeah, this was an article that I ran across. I think it's cool that he listed them. I do think there are maybe some. Is he anyone that we know or is just? It's Jason Rigdon, I think is how his name is pronounced. So he shares these eight types of podcast formats. And it's an article on Medium. The link will be in the show notes. His eight types are recycled fiction, explainer, round table, interview, magazine, news reader, and documentary. He mentioned our show specifically, so that's cool. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think what this is missing is like, where would you put comedy in this? I mean, yes, there are comedy round tables, but comedy, if it's one person doing comedy, that's not an explainer. And also think about like, if it's more interactive with your audience, where your audience sends you questions and you answer the questions, that's not really an explainer, that's not really a round table, but it's more interactive, like a Q and A format, something like that. And recycled, calling recycled a podcast format? Repurposed, right? Same thing. Yeah, well, yeah, and he's saying that this is where you take, yeah, something from the radio and put it out as a podcast. I wouldn't call that a podcast format because the format describes the content, not whether the content was somewhere else. So it just doesn't make sense to call it recycled. I'd just say recycled shouldn't even be on there. Well, I don't know. Is it kind of weird? If you look at explainer, so if somebody's making a joke about a topic, but that's not an explainer, because the whole point in this article is an explainer's supposed to be educational and comedy is taking a topic and let's go past the line probably, let's push things a little bit and then see if I can bring my audience back to it. But I'm like, no, that's not, I'm with you. That's when it's missing. Although I don't know, I don't listen to a lot of comedy shows, but most of the people that are comedians, they don't do anything funny. I only remember Jim Norton, no. I forget, but there was one guy that used to do rants. He would just get on and rant. Like I've never heard, I've heard a lot about Bill Burr show. It sounds like he just gets on and goes off on topics, which to me is kind of like a standup thing. So, and I understand it would be hard to be a standup comic and then use all your material in your podcast, because then when people come to pay to hear you, they're like, we've already heard this stuff. Where's the new stuff? It's definitely not as funny listening to one guy telling a joke in a podcast, you have to have the back and forth and hearing someone laugh at their own jokes. The main takeaway that I love about this article is that, hey, guess what? There are more podcast formats than interviews and comedy and fruit crime. That's too bad, because I was going to turn this into a thing where we interview comedians and then murder them. Oh, that would be good. And we explain how we did it in the process. I'm basically just turning the game clue into a, is it a clue? Yeah, I'm going to turn it into our podcast. You just see one of the people disappear, like which one of the, who on the round table did it? We were not going to murder people. Okay, first of all, if you're transcribing this my voice on Pandora and you're matching me up against serial killers, we're going to pod fade them is what we're going to, we're going to delete their podcasts from iTunes and you got to figure out who we did it. You have been erased. You've been eliminated. Yeah, that's right, erased. What happened to him? I let their podcast go. All right, see, we now officially, everyone go to your tents. I'm out of beer, the cooler is empty. I think we just put, pour something on the fire. We're done. We know when the sand goes off the rails. All right, awesome. Well, hey, let us know where we can find your podcast and we're keeping that discovery engine going here on the round table. And thanks for joining us. Dan, thanks again for your first podcast round table. Yeah, thanks for having me. You can find my show at baseonitruestorypodcast.com. Can you give us the elevator pitch? The elevator pitch? Yeah, so I compare movies with history. So like Titanic is a very popular movie, but obviously not everything happened. So I go through and just compare what happened in the movie with what actually happened in history and sometimes it's more realistic. Sometimes it's not. So that would be explainer podcast. You're an explainer podcast. Yeah, I guess if I had to fit into one of these, I would probably put it in explainer. All right, I want to make sure we fit you into some category. Can have this rogue stuff living on your own. All right, hey, thanks again so much. Daniel, thanks for joining us. Thank you for being able to be here the whole time. From your studio, we got the Royal Treatment today signified by the blue in the background. Yeah, and a bonus, I actually put an episode out for the Audacity to podcast recently to talk about sharing the experience that I talked about last time with getting kicked out of Apple podcasts, some of the data that I've researched, things I've been tracking with other podcasts. But you can subscribe to my podcast and more over at theaudacitytopodcast.com. Very cool, I thought it was just a blog post. So now I can listen. It was going to be, but then I realized. You kept calling it that. Why don't I just put this out also as a podcast episode? I've already written the script. I'll just pretty much read this. And so that's what I did. Very cool. Yeah, definitely check that out because it's got new content and you're going to get all the details you need. Daniel goes deep dive every time. So we enjoy that. Dave, Jackson, thanks for showing up, man. Yeah, this was a fun conversation. And you can find me over at schoolofpodcasting.com. Awesome. All right, everyone. Podcastersroundtable.com slash guest if you would like to appear on a future roundtable, 121 next time. Wave goodbye, we're outta here.