 Welcome back into the original gangsters podcast. I am your co-host Scott Bernstein this week we are going to do a bit of a deep dive into Legacy in the outlaw biker culture. We're going to do an immemorial episode for the two biggest Hell's Angels biker bosses in history RIP to Sonny Barger and mom Boucher who both died in the last couple weeks I want to welcome in my co-host and co-conspirator the doctor Jimmy Bucci Lotto. Hi everyone Thank you, and I just want to remind everyone please subscribe to our podcast subscribe to our video channel on YouTube follow us on social media Facebook Instagram Twitter and also just For newer audience members we get feedback on social media, and I appreciate that about different ideas for themes and topics we should talk about and sometimes those ideas They're always really good suggestions, but sometimes We all we've already produced episodes on that topic So I encourage everyone especially if you're a newer audience member to dig through our archives We don't have the archives up on YouTube yet But if you go to Spotify iTunes Google podcast and scroll through those episodes You'll see every episode we've ever produced and all the different topics that we've we've talked about So please do that and even if you're a longtime listener, maybe you miss something scroll through there and Listen to it and please spread the word. Thanks. So Jimmy. Let's let's jump right into the deep end of the pool it's I don't know if it's appropriate It's it's definitely of note that the two most iconic Hells Angels in American history Both why should say North American history? Both died in the same couple weeks Sonny Barger Ralph Sonny Barger is the you know the architect of modern-day Bicoculture period he founded the Hells Angels in the late 1950s and What we have in 2022 as you know the picture of what? those one those one percenters are the guys with with the hundreds of brothers Draped in in colors and flags and rockers Spread around the country There are there are literally thousands if not tens of thousands of them and it all started with Sonny Barger out of Oakland California in the late 1950s and he grew the Hells Angel into really the standard bear for all biker gangs and Organizations around the world Yeah, I think he's really significant for a lot of ways. I mean first of all he Really turned the Hells Angels into a franchise. It wasn't just about a local motorcycle club. He really helped Really brand it as something that was really cool if you were into that culture if you were biker if you were an outlaw of your trouble And I would celebrated it early on. Yeah, I mean he started the Hells Angels in 1957 by the mid 60s late 60s they were being included in in movies and television shows and Toring around with rock groups as their security. They were very immersed in Amashed is that a word? Yeah into into the pop culture fabric pretty early on. Yeah I mean movies like well, there was there wasn't Hells Angels movie, right? And and Sonny He actually didn't he get some kick? Pushback from some of the other members. They didn't they weren't happy about that. I think there were Tensions between Sonny and certain members of the rank and file and certain members of the Power structure within his organization over the years. Yeah, and it wasn't just one One issue. I think it was a common Theme when when you when you build something and it becomes as as giant and has the imprint that the Hells Angels had both in terms of presence in outlaw biker culture around the world but also in terms of Like you said making money off of the brand The Hells Angels 69 is the is the name of the film and for licensing purposes or You know any type of Inclusion in Mainstream media fair Brought brought money and Sonny Barger was in the film and he plays Sonny I've never seen the film. I'm embarrassed to say it actually sounds cool sounds like an exploitation era flick from you know 69 and I don't know if he's if it's like sort of biographical autobiographical what he's playing but but anyhow That's just another example then we know the infamous Rolling Stones incident, which by the way listen to our Interview with George Christie Altamont. Yeah, he really breaks that down but but that was and that was an another example of where The Hells Angels crossed over with popular culture But in some ways in that case, you know, maybe it was like infamy and that was one of the first one Really, and I think one of that it's probably one of the first times that the the the public Regular Joe and Jane Q. American citizen What we're learning about who the Hells Angels were? Especially if you weren't from the West Coast. Yeah, you definitely who the Rolling Stones were But maybe you didn't know who the Hells Angels were until you read the account of what happened at that that faithful that faithful day where life was lost and There was a altercation on Between Marty Ballin who was a lead singer of Jefferson Starship and the Hells Angels. Yeah Yeah, that was a that ended up being a bad mix and you can listen to our episode with George He really it gives a really good outline to it, but I Think that the Jefferson airplane guy told the the biker Go fuck himself and he gave him an opportunity. I remember in the interview George says the the biker told him take it back And he wouldn't take it back and so then I think he knocked them out and then you know, they got on they got pretty Physical with the crowd and then someone ends up getting stabbed someone. Yeah I think he had a gun that the somehow, you know security was different back then an audience member had a gun and He pulled it and the biker the Hells Angels, but there have been problems that entire Yes day that entire concert There had been issues between the Hells Angels and the people at the concert and that this was kind of the culmination of that Yeah, and that's actually a really interesting Dynamic that we don't have to and Sonny Barger was there. Yes, by the way Yeah, I don't think George was but he he knew about it. He was around those guys I think it was a little bit before his time but Anyhow and then there ended up being what we reported on our podcast They're ended up being a dispute. Yeah, I mean the Rolling Stones and the Hells Angels They don't want to pay who was paying the lawyer fees and the Legal punishment from the courts right about Insurance payouts and whatnot. Yeah, who was foot in the bill for that the Stones wouldn't pay and Mick Jagger got his his yacht blown up In in Harbour yeah, and they put a contract. Yeah, and I'm in the actually Confronted I think at one point Mick Jagger's bodyguard and and the Hells Angels pretty much kicked the shit out of the guy and Then and then I think the FBI ended up getting to Jagger and was like you should settle these accounts like I think this is not a joke one of the people with these guys I think one of the guys if not the guy that had been tapped for the contract Flip Yeah, I think it was a guy from Cleveland. That's how they write One of the first big Informants or well-known Informants or witnesses against against the Hells Angels and that's what might have ultimately prevented The murder of Mick Jagger by the Hells Angels over what happened at Altamont the fallout Yeah, they weren't gonna let that go and and one thing I was gonna say is kind of interesting We don't have to deep dive it but sociologically it's interesting You were talking about the this being a bad mix of that the Hells Angels with like the hippies and because you know We talked about the counterculture Obviously, it was way before our time, but when you study it late 60s early 70s Well, sometimes we just lump it into this one major category of counterculture, but not all the different sub Cultures within the counterculture were compatible with each other So you had like the anti-war hippies and pot smokers didn't necessarily sink well with Outlaw biker. So you had a black Panthers and you know, like it was pretty diverse range of and so in this case like the hippies and Hells Angels weren't really like a combat a compatible. You're more combustible Even though they were both technically counterculture in Barger It wasn't just the movie Barger. I believe that in either the 80s or the 90s. He wrote a book Which I guess you could Analogize in the mafia to like Joe Bonanno Writing a book. I think some people were aggravated by that and so yeah, he he embraced his celebrity and He was such an American pioneer And and that's a credit to him, but he was also a criminal He was you know, the the epitome of what a biker boss was it he he spread the Hells Angels Like I said, not just around America or North America, but around around the world He eventually became an actor. He was in he was in Sons of Anarchy and Lenny the Pimp So but I want to make a delineation between him and then the guy we're also going to talk about who was the the Sonny Barger of Canada Maurice mom Boucher One of the differences is that Sonny Barger died a free man Mom Boucher from Montreal died in prison of throat cancer been locked up the last two decades But I think there is a Distinct difference in them where Sonny was a biker boss While Maurice mom Boucher Evolved I would say from a biker boss to a crime lord and a An underworld head of state More so than Sonny Barger ever did and that's no disrespect to Barger or the legacy because his legacy is is just huge and what he was able to build and spawn from his vision of of a biker organization and just brilliant really But I think when we're talking about mom Boucher Whose story really begins in the 70s and 80s as opposed to bargers who begins in the 50s You're talking about that kind of a different beast. Yeah, I would say is that Sonny always kept one foot in the Mainstream even though he was an outlaw and he was counterculture icon Like you said the movies the books he always kept one foot in the mainstream and Even though he was an outlaw to the core Whereas mom Boucher was a gangster. Yeah, straight straight gangster and Sonny What was in and out of prison on a lot of drug cases? Yeah Not to say that he wasn't ever implicated in violence. He was there, you know, he was implicated in in murders, I believe But mom Boucher like you said playing off Your categorization of him as a as a gangster. He was an arch-villain criminal that was Putting out hits on police officers and Parole officers Yeah He he was a Walking talking Lethal weapon of a human being and again, I'm not trying to say that Sonny barger wasn't a Dangerous person he was of course, but I think mom Boucher at least when it came to the country of Canada The government viewed mom Boucher a lot differently than the government of the United States viewed barger Yeah, I think so and I also I think my my understanding is that the Hell's Angels in the United States Was a little bit more decentralized in the sense that Sonny barger obviously carried a lot of weight and he was the OG but He wasn't the you know the cup would he to the copy like Each Hell's Angels chapter had a lot of autonomy Even if Sonny was certainly a presence and it loomed large, but whereas my understanding is that at least in Quebec that mom Boucher was the shotcaller. I would say in the entire country. Yeah, there was no more powerful biker boss Yeah, then yeah, because that was the center of power was Montreal and that that so his era his area Sonny died on June 29th Mom died the last week Let me get a date on mom Boucher. I was just looking at your article on this he died July 10th, I think So they were about 10 days apart roughly So that's weird. So to give people a little bit of more insight on mom Boucher he was a biker in Canada in the 70s with a biker group that had some National nationalism ties Some Nazi neo-nazi ties. It was a group called the SS right and when Barger decided to Expand the Hell's Angels brand outside of the American borders one of the first places he went to was to Canada and put a chapter in in Montreal in the late 1970s and a lot of the a smaller less influential groups Like the SS were absorbed and and patched over so Let's talk about that for a minute because that's interesting how how the If the Hell's Angels in the United States want to expand They don't just set up a sign and have people fill out applications, right? They they they identify potential Recruits think about it as a like a business. Yeah, right, you know a corporation that doesn't have a presence in A certain city will target that city and then go buy up all the mom and pop spots Yeah, that city and and take them underneath their umbrella and all of a sudden you got blockbuster video Yeah, right. So it's kind of interesting and for people that don't know that analogy Yeah, when we were young well, they don't know before you were streaming all your movies Yeah, right you were going to a what really at the end. There was one place to go get all your baby Yeah, monopoly Yeah, our producer Ben And then the family video lasted a little while but not but the point is there was a point in time Where there were all of these mom-and-pop spots that were selling videos That's how it started and then by the the 90s. Yeah blockbuster had come into every city in the world And just planted a flag and they all did that with books, right? They all came under underneath the blockbuster banner and that's what happened with the Hell's Angels in Montreal and a lot of other places. Yeah, they just they pet they call it's called patching over, right? And it's interesting the politics of it because it can go two ways like in a lot of cases the local Club is honored and they're like fuck. Yeah, like big leagues like yeah, we we're down But then you have sometimes you have the local clubs are like no, we're good and that doesn't usually go over Doesn't go over very well. It offends. It offends the bigger group that's coming in in their mind, they're offering you value in their You know, they're co-signing. Yeah And if you if you kind of turn that down and say you're not interested that usually doesn't go over very well And then it turns it to like well, we're not asking like if you if you want to continue to exist You will exist as Hell's Angels or you won't you will no longer exist and you know what that yeah, you know That means so with Boucher it appears that his his rise in the organ is in the organization Was was quite meteoric He got initiated or patched in I believe in according to court records and informants in in 1984 He had allegedly committed the murder of an out an out a member of the outlaws Which is the Hell's Angels big rival or the outlaws, which is a Midwest based biker organization Chicago Detroit, Milwaukee and They also have a presence in Canada and according to these court records a man Boucher murdered a president of the outlaws and It was rewarded with membership in the Hell's Angels and then within a year. I believe he was named president of the Montreal Hell's Angels and Then there was this Split between him and a group of bra or two brothers that he was very close with that He had come up in the SS with and had patched over into the Hell's Angels with the Kuzeta Kuzeta brothers Salvatore and Giovanni and Salvatore Kuzeta was not pleased with the direction of The Hell's Angels in Canada there was a mass murder That took place. I think in 1984 or in that 83 or 84 where you had Hell's Angels turning on other Hell's Angels and the Kuzetas Decided they didn't want to be a part of that type of organization. So they started their own group called the Rock Machine and this was in 1985 and There were Copacetic Relations between the Rock Machine and the Hell's Angels for a period of time until Salvatore Kuzeta Kuzeta I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right. I could be butchering it It would be a Kuzeta, but Kuzeta's fine. So he's imprisoned in 1994 on a drug case and All hell breaks loose and in a lot of ways it's it's a table setter or a precursor an appetizer to what is going on right now in Canada with the mafia that have There's been this cataclysmic Biblical You know, there's biblical proportions of a mob war going on right now and has been going on for over a decade in Canada and a lot of this was kind of foreshadowed But what happened in the biker world between 1994 in 2002 because mom Boucher viewed Salvatore Kuzeta's removal from the scene as a entree to take over all drug dealing All all gambling all Bikers really in a strip in in Montreal and it didn't matter that Salvatore Kuzeta was an old friend of his didn't matter that they had come up together and in the SS they had joined the Hell's Angels together it was a pure power grab and You had more than a hundred Bodies drop in those eight years and right now you're going on 12 13 years of You know one has been dubbed the great Canadian biker war or the great Quebec biker war This is being dubbed the great Canadian mob war. You're you're already into the hundreds Well into the hundreds and what's been going on with the mafia in the last decade plus and what went down between 94 and 02 was you know almost equally as bloody and Mom Boucher Ended up going to prison for activity that took place during that war, but he would last for six years on the outside between 94 and 2000 and in that time period he became a folk hero to a degree and and In you know, Sonny Barger did to to an extent but Boucher Was a Teflon Don For a period of time he kept on beating cases. Yeah, but you ever see the footage of him like it's like John Gott He comes out everyone's cheering for him and there's there's an actual Yes, and there was an actual Event or or incident that happened that really solidified this or cemented this in Canadian pop culture He's put on trial for for a gangland double homicide. He beats it beats the case and I believe it was 1998 or 1997 and the night that he Beats the case He's he'd been held without bond for a year or two. So he hadn't been free He gets free beats the case and he goes to a Roy Jones Who at the time was one of the big boxers of the era he goes to a Roy Jones junior boxing Match, yeah, and the whole crowd stands up and applause Yeah So he lasted for another two years. They eventually nailed him I believe on on ha I'm the homicides that were tied to these Police officers became getting me number one in prison guards. Yeah a parole officer Policemen were ending up dead at his order. Well, and there's that that was a that was a game changer but Because up until that point they had not it been Targeting members of the state. Yes, and at that point There was a fear that if they pull this off and we don't the state Rcmp and others we don't respond They're gonna there was a real fear that they would turn Montreal into like Columbia. Yeah, or Sicily Where they're fascinating prosecutors and judges and so they really felt like They had to put the smack down and he was public enemy number one throughout Canada and it also scared authorities of his Very very close relationship with Vita risotto. Yeah, it was like this You know alliance of the the axis of evil Where you have the most powerful the two really the two most powerful criminal figures in all of Canada coming from different Spaces within that underworld that came together and and joined forces and You could make the argument and that we were talking about this off off Mike that if Mom Boucher doesn't go to prison in 2000 and he's on the street when Vita risotto Does go to prison in the later? 2000s and is shipped off to America to serve his his prison sentence and while he's in Prison in America his own organization Craters and his own people turn against him and start killing the members of his own family and Everything erupts into chaos that has yet to cease Again 13 14 years later None of this Might have happened if mom Boucher had been free and was there to who you know Do veto risotto's bidding for him while he was on the outside. I think I think that's a good That's a good point and and to talk about that relationship for a moment The why are the bikers and the Italians working together? Well, a lot of this came about with drug distribution that the bikers the Italians were supplying the bikers with especially cocaine but other things heroin, but especially cocaine and The Italians and even now the same thing in Detroit other places the Italians don't like to host wholesale like they don't like to sell on the street and like hand-to-hand deliveries of things like that and so the bikers are a good Strategic partner for the Italians if you're bringing in a lot of cocaine and heroin and sort of dump it off To the bikers and then let them worry about distributing it And there's a whole sale is not the right way. I was thinking of like distribution. They don't like yeah Italians don't like to get into the Hand stuff. Yeah, there's always been a sin. I shouldn't say always but dating back to the 1970s So going back 50 years there has been a symbiotic relationship between Italian organized crime and outlaw bike or organized crime and It's it doesn't discriminate It's been happening in Los Angeles. It happens in New York happens in Detroit, Chicago Milwaukee, Florida it happens all over the place Boston and There's always been a a kind of trading of services if you will and the mob has Liked and has gotten used to and and feel comfortable Outsourcing a lot of their dirty work. Yeah a lot of the dirtiest work there is to be done In in the underworld. Yeah to these bikers and the bikers Like just like we were talking last week about the the African-American drug lords in the 70s and 80s seeing the having an Italian supply Yeah supply line as a as a status symbol. I think it's it's similar with the biker guys If they have a Italian mob guy that they can call As as their you know Their number two in a situation or even if they're number two to their you know, and they could broker a deal or if they can Anything that can They can let they can there's a lot of different situations they can leverage For their own organization their own biker group buy an affiliation with the Italian Yeah, so the Italians benefit from the the bikers can distribute and by the way part of your your notion of the dirty work Is let's say if you're a street gang and you're trying to extort a Mafia connected business and in Canada back then at least You're probably not gonna get a visit from the Italians. You're gonna get a visit from the bikers You're gonna visit from the Hell's Angels Yeah, and they're gonna inform you that this is a connected place and you need a bag But we saw it in Chicago with it with one of our guests from a year about a year ago a big Pete You know the the so-called o and o Alliance the Chicago outfit and the outlaws and in a Case that involved the the godfather of the Chicago Mafia Big fat Mike Sarno who was actually in the headlines this past week because he got his appeal for compassionate release denied But you know big Mike fat Mike Sarno not to be confused with big Mike Spano fat Mike Sarno was convicted of extorting a video poker machine company and a bar that was using that video game service for their for the machines that were in their establishment and Sarno wanted that video poker machine company and that bar to use his video poker his video poker machines And they weren't and and he wasn't asking right and Sarno ended up blowing up a Storefront, but he also ended up sending foul laws right into that bar to tear the bar up right yeah So it's again this it happens in Canada. It happens in the United States It happens on the West Coast it happens on the East Coast it happens in the Midwest and and so then you think okay so what what are the bikers get well first of all there's like that social status, but it's really more substantive than that because the Italians at least in Montreal and throughout Hamilton they had the political contacts and Infiltrated legitimate business world. So if you're the bikers those connections are invaluable for money laundering for political protection For things like that other opportunities to get into other rackets like construction and things like normally the bikers wouldn't be Fucking with that kind of stuff. So they tell you it's really important strategically for both sides to to work together And and I think where there was a tension was And he's reminds you of the godfather a little bit with drugs, but Because there was so much violence between the Hell's Angels and the rock machine and The the Hell's Angels now are thinking about well, they put they did put a contract out on a public official That's when veto risotto had to step in and they're like this this doesn't last and it's sustainable if and it's bad for everybody It's bad for everybody and it's starting to blow back on me and my organization I can't we can't protect you those political contacts and the money laundering and all that that that can't continue and your Risotto squashed the beef if you're Over veto risotto had the power in 2002 To step in yeah and tell everyone to stand down. Yeah, and they did yeah And then it shows you how powerful veto risotto right and the government went to him and we're like Like everyone's going down if you don't if you don't put a stop and there were there actually, you know, there were two meetings That took place one publicly and one privately That I believe were both surveilled and there's photos of veto risotto sitting at a table with Mom Boucher on one side and then the leader of the rock machine who at that time had gone and made an alliance with the banditos Yeah, and it was like rock machine banditos Mom Boucher on one side veto risotto playing down Corleone in the middle Yeah, they left that they left that meal and shook hands and in the violence stopped Yeah, and the and and from the Italians perspective also they're like, you know, everyone there's enough money everyone can make money because You know that the Italians did not have some kind of fidelity to the Hells Angels They didn't care who distributed was distributing their narcotics They'd be just as happy to supply the the the rock machine of the banditos as the angels But they had this this you know had been pre-existing this relationship with the Hells Angels But what one of the things that was another game changer was not only because you know, you talked about him being a folk hero Once the public finds out that you took a contract out on a police official or this case was a was a was it a parole officer Was it a prosecutor? I can't remember it was prison guards prison guards. Yeah, okay now now You're gonna you're gonna chip away Significantly at your public support and you're like Robin Hood image, but the one that was even bigger than that was There was an assassination attempt on a biker with a car bomb and a ten-year-old boy was killed He was like, I don't know. He's riding a skateboard riding his bike or something like that. I can't remember. I'm gonna tell you and That's when the public opinion officially turned on Mambu shave from being like a folk hero too Like we don't want our country to turn into like, you know what we see in Sicily or Colombia or Mexico where civilians and public officials are getting killed if the gangsters are killing each other people Can turn a blind eye to that but once civilians or police start getting caught up in the crossfire Usually public opinions gonna gonna change pretty quickly. I mean that that that happened in Italy too, you know What would fall Coney? Yeah, that was a big the big prosecutor when they Assassinated him. There was sort of enough is enough, you know, I'm having a hard time finding This the breakdown of the kid that was yeah, that was a sad that was a sad Case study. I don't know if I don't have it in my notes or I don't want to Have dead air, but So, you know, I think it's also something to point out with mom Boucher and differentiate him from Sonny Barger he Really was more in the mold of Another contemporary of his that wasn't in the Hell's Angels, but was the leader of the outlaws which was a Harry Taco bowman From Detroit and the guy that really spread and expanded the outlaw brand both around the country and internationally and Sonny Barger never really molded his appearance or molded his behavior To who he was speaking to or who he was meeting with he was very unapologetic and Didn't try to present a more polished version of himself And and then you look at Boucher who started to behave like this in Canada at the same time that bowman was behaving like this in America where Bowman and Boucher caught their hair short Would dress in in a jacket and tie when they were meeting certain people they they were Chameleons and Knew how to interact more with The the non-biker criminal elite and even the just the non-biker business elite It was more of a seamless transition into those Nooks and crannies of those relationships that really benefited the organization both of their respective organizations The Hell's Angels when it came to Boucher and the outlaws when it came to bowman With that approach and that was with with Canada at least that was by design and we talked about off Air the guy they called Nurgut who was a lot of people don't realize that Walter Stednick Yeah, like like Mambo Shay. It wasn't a dictatorship. I mean there were there were other heavyweights It was a very political. I mean they all made it work, but he was sort of the more What do you want to say like politician of the Nurgut I didn't want to be out in front of the newspapers. He was glad to let This this makes him a little bit more like Bolger and less like taco a taco didn't court the headlines Barger and Boucher, you know courted media attention, right and and Stadnick didn't want to have I think Stadnick had like a Excuse me if I'm if I'm speaking false information here, but I think Stadnick had like a Scar on his face or something that made him Scary-looking and avoided pictures, you know want his picture taken because of yeah some vanity. It was a lot more low-key and Because of this fear of I guess being judged on his looks. I think there was also some Just being smart as a criminal wanting to insulate yourself There was a decision made that although Stadnick might have had at times equal Power and status as Boucher. It was strategically decided that Boucher would be yeah out in public sphere Yeah, and he was more comfortable with it, but but The other guy He was the one who Wanted the guys to be more clean cut Stadnick. Yeah, not not look like heavy metal rock Not by the way, not not wear your cut in public and things like that and Be more button, you know buttoned up and There was a little bit of pushback between you know with some of the rank and file, you know this sort of like well What the fuck man more like the Sonny Barger like hey But George Christie kind of took on that. Yeah, yeah that same posture. Yeah in America. Yeah for the house Hells Angels in the 80s. Yeah, where he kind of jumped in front of Sonny Barger Yeah, and said he was a little bit more of a more digestible. Yes, I think by the mainstream public He carried the torch. Yeah, we interviewed him Yeah, you can listen in our archives, but he carried the torch in the 1984 Olympics I mean the city of LA was comfortable with the face of the you know, Southern California. Yeah Hells Angels being a part of the the torch Lighting process. Yeah, so if you so if you if you if you find value in that that was a PR coup Of course. Yeah, and he talks about that and and so I think to a certain extent that that's part of the Strategy in Canada too is I like your term. You're gonna be more digestible, which means less heat more public support but if that doesn't matter if you're putting contracts out on State officials and if 11 year old boys are getting killed in the in the crossfire That's all you're gonna go so far. I'm looking at a I found a newspaper article here from the Washington Post I think it was 1995 was when the Was that when the oh I see it August 9th 1985. Yeah, 11 year old bystander is killed by the shrapnel from a bomb used to kill Mark Duby who was a Hells Angel affiliate, right blown up in a car bomb Right outside of Hells Angels headquarters in Montreal August 9th 1995. So I think it was Daniel de Roche Yes, I think how you pronounce his name. I see that now. It was early on in that war. Yeah Yeah so Cuz that it goes to prison I think in the summer of 94 and I think you had murders that took place in July October and It was kind of off to the races at that point with tensions a brewing between the Hells Angels and the rock machine and Remember at one point they also Try to kill a journalist. Yeah, and he the person survived But I think you might have even taken some shots. So there were some other they were breaking that kind of traditional underworld code that civilians and Journalists law enforcement. I mean, we'll show it on our video But you just look at this picture of mom Boucher in one of his mug shots Yeah, you could put this mug shot up in front of someone. Yeah, I identify this guy Is this guy a white collar criminal? Yeah, or is he a biker boss and you could be like I kind of looks like a white collar criminal He just doesn't look at all like a biker doesn't even look like a criminal, right? So you could be a dentist or something right a dentist or a Or you know, he runs your local Tavern and pours you your drink that night. Yeah, you look at Sonny Barger though. Oh, yeah in his heyday Yeah, and he looks like a biker boss. Yeah, he looks and taco bowman was just so adept and so savvy and being able to Have a foot in each one of those camps aesthetic Akely because you see pictures of taco bowman where he's all long hair beard tattoos looking straight out of central casting and then you look at a picture from him a Picture of him from six months after that last picture was taken and his hair is cut short And you can't see any tattoos and his beard He doesn't have a beard and he's dressed in a three-piece suit going to meet with, you know, Jack Toko or who's a mafia down in Detroit or going to Meet with you know legitimate businesses that were doing business at that time with the outlaws whether it be security I know that the early kid rock When when kid rock was getting started in the in the late 90s and was becoming a really big deal All of his personal security was done by the outlaws Hmm. I didn't know that. Um, so he luckily didn't go down like the Rolling Stones, right? Situation but the difference is though, I think mambush a Trying to look more respectable It's still not the same thing as having a foot in the mainstream like Sonny did so even though Sonny looked like an outlaw He was out there. He's he's making movies. You got George Christie doing 84 Olympics I think that that's the big difference is mambush a never even if he was trying to appear as a more clean-cut dude I don't think he was ever able to fully Detach from the gangsters and boo and boo shea and bowman and circulate in respectable. Yeah mainstream circles again kind of Plain not devil's advocates the wrong way to say it but count point counterpoint With bowman and boo shea They had Supreme loyalty to the day they died. Oh, yeah, you know the the rank and file To the rank and file they were as beloved as beloved can be yeah, they checked those three boxes that I talk about in The underworld achieving power And it's so difficult to check three boxes. It's easy to check one or two of them, but to check all three loved Feared respected. It's very difficult to find someone that that hits all three of those things and and bowman and Boo shea and and sonny barger did too, but there were there were more Wrinkles I think in in barger's legacy And some of that has to do with I think it's the size Of the organization was scale that he was leading as opposed to the the outlaws or even the the Canadian Hells Angels That boo shea was overseeing but And I'm sure if we had a sonny barger expert on here He could sit here and debate me and I would defer to him because I don't consider myself a sonny barger expert But I think it does say something that at the end of barger's life He wasn't Affiliated with the chapter that he started. He wasn't affiliated with the Oakland chapter a long time. He was down in Arizona He started up that he started started up the Arizona Hells Angels and you know, I think there were there was a beef between the chapter He started there and George Christie and George Christie right? Yeah, so even within the club There was some some in and so not to say that he wasn't a a godlike figure in a lot of circles because he was and is and deserved to be if you were looking at it from that perspective, but I Think there was a little bit of a difference when it came to Boo shea and Bowman in terms of the way that Everybody felt about them I think barger definitely checked the Love or I should say I think he definitely checked the feared and respected I'm Again, I'm not saying I'm an expert on on sonny barger, but I don't know if everybody loved him Yeah, and by the way another episode we did interview with Kerry drove and who wrote a book on the phoenix Or Arizona Hells Angels One of the things that was kind of interesting in that interview was she mentioned just as a coincidence that she lived in the same neighborhood as Sonny barger. She would see him all the time riding his motorcycle in the in the neighborhood Probably in Phoenix somewhere But I'll just I know we're all over the place in terms of the chronology here But when we talk about a biker war It really was a war in the sense of like if you if you think about like the second great mafia war in Sicily in the in the early 80s They say it was a war, but it wasn't really it was one-sided Corleone. It was a total arena. They were killing everybody There's no retaliation the aggressor it was just a man It was just a massacre in this case It was a tit for tat like they were taking out hell's a big time house a big time house. Yeah Yeah, I mean it really was a back-and-forth War so I know I just think that's kind of an interesting difference to point out the the rock machine while they were dwarfed in Size and stature. Yeah by the Hells Angels, right? They kept up. They kept the fight Oh, yeah, eight years and held their own remarkable Like didn't the rock machine form an alliance with the outlaws to at some point or was just a banditos. I Wouldn't be shocked as we know your enemy's enemy. Yeah. Yeah is your friend the outlaws and the Hells Angels have been at war since 1973 or 74 There was an incident where three Hells Angels From Massachusetts were killed down in Florida in like a triple homicide and That erupted this war that has yet to cease although if you listen to the George Christie interview You know that there was a point in time in the 90s. Yeah, the war was almost squashed was almost put to bed Yeah, and he said he said he was like talk Bowman had like a summit. Yeah, where they met. There's pictures of right where they met for like a week trying to negotiate and according to George Christie a guy named spike. I believe his name is Kevin O'Donnell spike O'Donnell who was the boss of the Milwaukee outlaws Got into Bowman's ear and it's kind of sabotaged it. Yeah at the last second But well, you that's an interesting thing because and we've talked about this with other, you know, like her topics that Within the you could listen to our interview big p2 where this comes up to like inner politics of you know, sometimes the leadership Sees it as long term. Let's make money Violence is bad for business. Yeah, let's keep things copacetic and then you have like the guys on the street who are the guys who are, you know Sometimes getting the beefs with guys from other clubs and it's like, you know, you get into the kind of like, you know Reputation and status and we can't tolerate this and fuck these motherfuckers and so, you know It's difficult to be a leader of a motorcycle club and try to keep like, you know that that balance between You know, let's stay out of jail and make money But at the same time you have your rep and and how do you how do you balance that? I mean, it's pretty challenging. So just as we're running down just to give some people some facts and figures, I guess There was it was a female and a male prison guard that were gunned down three months Apart back in 1997 So it wasn't just killing a prison guard. It was killing a female. Yeah, it wasn't just a contract They actually killed they actually killed them. Yeah, they didn't just take out the contract. They killed them but There were as we said, there were a lot of big name Hells Angels and and Hells Angel affiliates that went went down in this war as well as the the Kuzeta brothers a co-founder of the rock machine Johnny Placio a Lot of Italian guys by the way who were bikers. Yeah, especially in Canada, which is kind of interesting and I know that you had a guy that was a very distinguished member of the Hells Angels in Canada named Biff Normand Biff Hamill who was one of Mambouche's right-hand men he was shot to death in the parking lot of a Doctor he was going to his general practitioner for a checkup and and you know people don't realize that, you know, the the tradecraft sometimes of Contract murders and I can think of a couple off the top of my head in my studying of this where You're the nurse at your doctor's office or the nurse at your dentist's office unknowingly Tips off your killers You know with Danny Green They found out that he had a dentist appointment the the famous Irish mob boss of Cleveland who ends up getting Blown up in his in the parking lot of his dentist's office. His his rivals called the dentist's office. They're like, yeah, we're Danny Green's You know assistance and we're looking to make sure where when his appointment is Yeah, and You know so in this case They killed Biff Hamill They found out that he had a doctor's appointment and And they killed him I can think of another situation in Chicago I'm blanking on the name of the guy where They called the the guy's doctor's office and found out Well, when he was going to show up and they killed him in the uh in the parking lot I mean these days with you know privacy these days any any self-respecting office would be like We're not giving you that information like like You just hang out remind. I don't know why I'm gonna even bring this up But it reminds me of we're talking about the difference between yesteryear and now it reminds me one of my grandpa's buddies who's a A bookmaker and professional gambler and he used to tell me stories how he would this was like po pre internet And how he would just call up of athletic pro like I would he's like I would call The university of michigan athletic department say can you put me in touch with the training staff for the football team? And the training staff would jump on the phone with him Oh, so he could get inside so he could get insight on who was injured and who wasn't so he can handicap And then that and then he would information against the vegas. I bet right no and he said he's like Yeah, I would pretend I was so-and-so's uncle and I I want to make sure that my nephew Tony's gonna be playing on saturday, so I don't drive all the way from cleveland And they check it and they would they would never they wouldn't cross checker Or make him verify who he was and he's like you'd have no he's like you have no idea How many times I was able to push the the spread one way or the other based on just me cold calling the training department at certain You know big time football programs now you couldn't get that person on the phone Even if you even if you legit you'd probably have a difficult time getting them on the phone Let me ask you something before you wrap up. I'm looking at your article on gangster report so in 1998 Paolo catroni is killed by the rock machine Now that's interesting. It's a name that you definitely recognize because catroni, right? That's an important mafia name in in montreal and um The catronis and the risottos traditionally Don't like each other they coexist Well, they don't know anymore, but at least because the war you're talking about but back in the day For decades they coexisted even though they didn't like each other um So if a control if a catroni was killed, I wonder what the risotto reaction to that was because on the one hand This is a person who's part of your organization and You can't just allow people to pick off guys in your organization on the other hand They don't really like them. But look what happened two years later in april of 2000 you had a guy named salvatore dravasi whose dad was a A maid guy of the risotto family apolo dravasi So, but I guess but the risottos took him out. Yeah. Well, so I get okay. Look, so it looks like paolo dravasi had had thrown his support Behind the rock machine when the risotto said they wanted they were support officially supporting the hell's angels, but um I think it's an Italian's were definitely interwoven into this war Well, another guy who he's not Italian, but he's definitely connected is you talk about 2000 Andre Dejardin. Yeah, big big union guy. Yeah, and he was his um Wasn't that his brother is rain as uh Yeah Reynolds yeah, uh, so at that point he was As about as high ranking non-italian member. Are we sure are we sure that he's related to to uh Dejardin's that was risotto's right hand. I don't want to say is but not knowing for sure I think so. I'll fact check it because Dejardin's is a pretty uh common French canadian name. Yeah, I'm not doubting that he that does sound familiar to me I know that there was a a friend of Dejardin's. Oh, yeah, I well according to uh The interweb, and we know the interweb is 100 true That he's not that they're not related. Okay, so maybe but I do know there was a But he was still the andre was still a big deal in his own right even if he wasn't related to and I know that Reynolds Dejardin's Did I sound that was that a good friend? Is that a good french? Was that a good french? Very impressed the land the consonant is silent on the last so Dejardin Dejardin I know that one of his best friends Got into a dispute with veto risotto and From my reporting risotto's decision to kill this guy um, I think it was an 06 pretty shortly Either before or shortly after risotto was locked up for the first time in canada. He didn't get I don't think he got shipped to the u.s Until later in the 2000s, but I think at first he was locked up in a um, yeah In a uh prison in canada. Yeah and I think it was In the mid 2000s and he ordered this guy killed and that is what Was the first straw at least in turning Dejardin's Dejardin Against veto risotto and for people that don't know a I would recommend Going to watch the the fx docu series called bad blood with paul sorvino anthin lapalia lapalia. Yeah and and um Uh Kim coach kim coach kim coach from sons of anarchy sons of anarchy Uh, it does a good job. I think of it's a fictionalized version of the war But I think it does a good job of breaking that down, but he The the character that he plays Is a loose interpretation of Dejardin's Dejardin's Um, who was this french canadian gangster? Probably you francais. No, this fresh canadian gangster that had That had risen to be um veto risotto's right-hand man and then when veto risotto went to prison Dejardin Dejardin flipped on him Uh and joined forces with salvator montaña and then they and then they fell out Right it gets confusing, but there's some really good reporting on I mean we we've both admitted We're not we're not the foremost experts on canada although we find it fascinating and like to talk about it It's it's inevitable. We we got something wrong and someone peter someone pointed out on social media peter edwards fucking dummies Peter we do our best peter edwards paul cherry antonio necasso James jubro. There's some great books on this subject six family That's like one of the greatest books and then the book that they wrote that they base bad blood off of um Isn't it called bad blood? Isn't that the book? It's not called bad blood. It's called something like I know you're talking about that might be fine. It might be called bad blood and there's a subtitle Yeah, that's a good. Yeah, so and then the the guy who writes about the bikers too. I've read quite a few. Yeah, books Um Fuck I can't think of his name, but he he were fallen angel I think I if you told me the name on right and showdown, which is about like the outlaws and and hamilton Um, so there's you can look it up. You can google it. There's some really good books on and reporting on on the canadian organized Now this was fun. Let's uh once again give props to our producer on the wheels of steel uh behind the glass Making those ones and two sing like he's jam master j or mix master mic Our boy ben who's been taking us to the next level. Thank you to the audience and uh We know we love giving you kind of this pulporee of of modern day historical pop culture italians african-americans bikers Jews cartels irish. Yeah, so, uh We don't just we don't just talk about new york Italian mafia guys every episode like other we like to throw a little bit of shit up And don't no shade throw that shade And we know that that people love the biker stuff and uh, there's just so much so much So much so much of a rich palette to paint from when you're talking about telling stories from the biker world Both like I said historically and even what's going on today. And I think we'll we'll do an episode coming up Uh, we've we've done a lot of pagans stuff In the blue wave, but uh, there's there's some good outlaws Stories that are out there. You got four separate murder cases involving the outlaws that are in different stages In the in the judicial process around the country. So maybe we'll uh, we'll do an episode on the outlaws Coming up. I'd like to get somebody from you know, we had uh cast member from the Sopranos One of these days I'd love to get someone from from Sons of Anarchy or Mayans mc I've I've been shouting out Mayans mc on social media And uh, I get a lot of positive response and I love that show another aside and I will go to my grave Claiming this is one of the great What I call good bad movies ever made About just period, but it's about microculture. It's called stone cold It's with brian bosworth. I know it's embarrassing. I know it's embarrassing that I would uh, I would recommend A movie with brian bosworth as the star character but I really think uh for again for The way that I'm promoting it as a a movie that was so bad. It was actually good Uh, brian bosworth goes undercover into a biker gang led by lance The guy from He's been in a bunch of things lance hendrick hendrick I'm blanking on his thing. Oh, I know from like he was in uh, ali, uh, aliens. Yeah, and uh He was in he's been a lot of stuff a lot of horrors like pumpkin head. He's been in a lot of horror He's great as the biker boss. They call chains and will uh, william force life is in it. Yeah, he's he's great And uh, it's it's really cheesy. He's great, but it I think it actually gives you a pretty decent Uh, accurate look at what some of those guys are like And even though it's a cheesy a cheesy 80s movie. I would recommend it for uh, you know that kind of uh, Exploitation type films go check it out stone cold starting brian bosworth the boss All right. Uh, thanks to ben. Thanks to the audience for uh, jimmy buchelato. This is scott bernstein Please like subscribe follow. We'll keep giving you the content you love. We'll see you next week. Oh jay. Oh jay Oh Oh jay podcast out