 Welcome to what the up is going on in Latin America and the Caribbean, a popular resistance broadcast of hot news out of the region. In partnership with Black Alliance for Peace, Haiti, America's team, Code Pink, Common Frontiers, Council on Hemispheric Affairs, Friends of Latin America, Central Religious Task Force on Central America, Massachusetts Peace Action, and Task Force on the Americas. We broadcast Thursdays at 430 p.m. Pacific, 730 p.m. Eastern right here on YouTube live, including channels for the Convo Couch, popular resistance and Code Pink. Post broadcast recordings can be found at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Telegram, redindymedia.com, and now under podcast at popularresistance.org. Today's episode, Columbia, total peace and the fight to free all political prisoners. I'm happy to have two fantastic guests join us today everyone and I'm sure you're going to really get a lot out of this conversation. Anthony Dest is joining us from New York. He is with the Colombian Freedom Collective and it is specifically his prisoner project that we're going to be talking about in this episode. And then joining us from Cali, Colombia is a Jamu Baraka of Black Alliance for Peace, Haiti actions team, and he is also the Black Alliance for Peace National Organizer. And he can talk to us about what full peace looks like in Colombia and what the hope is for the region. I should also just remind all of you that, and some of you have been following the program for several years, that I was in May of 2021 during the Pato Nacional on a human rights observation delegation so this is a really, really special episode for me on a very personal level to have this conversation with Anthony and a Jamu it's terrific follow up as to what's happened to some of the people since May of 2021. And so, let me, let me just start with a brief background some of you will be familiar with this and others of you are new to this subject so let me give a background starting in April 2021. In April 2021, 10s of thousands of people took to the streets in Colombia to demand change. They rejected decades of state violence and deepening inequality. Over the course of three months, the largest protest in Colombian history, spread to over 800 municipalities throughout the country. The months long protests played a huge role in creating the conditions for the election of Gustavo Petro and Francia Marquez. Changes are afoot in Colombia and the inauguration of President Gustavo Petro and Vice President Francia Marquez on August 7, 2022, marked an important shift away from decades of political repression. More than 300 people accused of participating in the 2021 protests still remain incarcerated and or are facing harsh sentences on trumped up charges. Political prisoners from the 2021 national strike are currently on a hunger strike in four prisons around the country. Despite numerous promises from the Petro administration to address their situation, the prisoners continue to face dire conditions. The only demand that would bring an end to the hunger strike. A response from the national government regarding the December 22 proposal emerging from political prisoners in Palmyra for the creation of a table for dialogue. So let me introduce Anthony and Ajamu to all of you. And also Anthony asked that I share where to stream this. I'll put a couple links in the chat for you Anthony. So welcome gentlemen, really wonderful to have you both with us for this episode. It's really, as I mentioned earlier, it's a really important follow up to a number of our previous episodes regarding the Puerto Nacional in Colombia, as well as the presidential primaries and the presidential election. So, so this is a terrific opportunity to continue informing our audience about Colombia. So Anthony, why don't we start with you and what your project is and what the prisoners are demanding and why they are still imprisoned when the Colombian president is very vocal in the media, social media, particularly about countries throughout the region releasing all political prisoners. Thank you. Thank you so much for inviting us on today. And it's great to raise these issues right now because I think it's more important than ever. To kind of begin, you know, as you mentioned in the intro there, the Colombian national strike in 2021 started on April 28, and it lasted for about three months. But it's for me pretty hard to put an end date on it, because the expressions of a struggle for dignity and resisting state violence and resisting capitalism continued long after whatever people tend to think of the like ending as as ending right that it didn't culminate at a specific date. So that resistance has continued and there's all kinds of vibrant expressions of where this is gone in in the last couple years and I think it's really important to highlight that another way that this strike hasn't ended is that there are still a lot of people doing time for expressing themselves for struggling for dignity during that national strike. And so the most recent numbers we have are upwards of 300 political prisoners from recent demonstrations for participating in social mobilizations currently in Colombia. And, you know, this project is not my project, it's a collective project where the Columbia Freedom Collective and it's a few different organizations here in the United States, including the Black Alliance for Peace, the US Peace Council, and the National Warriors Guild San Francisco chapter, as well as organizations in Colombia, like the Comisión Interexial de Justicia y Paz, and Trabajo y Dignidad, as well as the Punto de Resistencia en Paso del Aguante, which is the primary case that that we are working with. And basically, you know, I've been working on Colombia for many years now, I'm also Colombian, and I was inspired by what was happening during the National Strike in 2021. And, you know, during the strike I made it down to Colombia, established contact with several folks that had been involved, more towards the tail end of it after some of the most brutal state repression had ended. You know, I think it's really important to highlight that over 40 people were killed by police, and at least 80 people were killed during the protest. Dozens of folks were forcibly disappeared, many more were injured, there's at least, I think, 25 cases of sexual violence committed by police forces against participants in the National Strike. So, you know, that violence is really what kept people out in the street, and that's what people were resisting throughout the National Strike. And now, to see that the folks that really put their lives on the line to better their conditions have been facing time and really hard time for choosing to struggle. And like you said earlier, create the conditions for the election of the first progressive government in Colombian history, for me it was completely unacceptable. And, you know, I think that that is what inspires a lot of us that are part of this movement to demand the freedom of political prisoners in Colombia right now. Let me, regarding the violence for the audience, violence was like military style assault on people who were peacefully assembling and it hadn't, I mean, these were, well, what we came to know is the Esmad teams and this were full blown military style tactics and equipment that were used against civilians, it was, it was more than violent, it was warfare, I would argue, and just to paint a picture for the audience. And when people assemble, it had nothing to do with whether it was peaceful, whether it was art, whether it was for music, just flying Pancarta's banners, you know, against the duke government. These Esmad teams would break up an event. Once it lasted, what they deemed to be too long or got too large, whether it was peaceful or not, and that was done very, very, very violently with military style, style tactics, and it was pretty gruesome. The majority of the country is about 70 plus percent of the country that was protesting the government at that time, which was enormous. I mean the government had pretty much lost the people by then, which I would argue is why the repression was so strong. But let me ask you about these, these people who were arrested and so they were arrested under the duke government. They were arrested for protesting. Were they, why am I thinking that some were released at Christmas? Was that a holiday short term thing or was it actually Christmas of 2022, I'm thinking. No. So, as you mentioned, there, there, there've been a couple kind of false starts on addressing the issue of political prisoners from the uprising. From the moment Beto was elected, I think he had it very clear that the national strike played a huge role in getting him there. And he mentioned it during his victory speech in June, I think it was of 2022. Shortly after he was elected, there was talk about passing an amnesty law. And there were a lot of expectations around that, given, given Petro's governing coalition having a majority in the Congress. But because of reactionary political pressure, the, the governing, the Pacto historical pulled that part of the amnesty law out. And so there wasn't an amnesty law that passed in October. And then in December, Petro said that he was going to use a, this legal figure known as the agents of peace. Histores de paz, agentes de paz to release hundreds of political prisoners before Christmas Eve. To date, I think there have been only, I think 14 people that have been designated as agents of peace, and of those only four have been released. But I think for a lot of the folks that I work with, there were a lot of expectations about what that could mean for them, you know, because the political prisoners that many of whom were very vocal in their support for the new administration expected to, for that to go through, but it did not happen. Right. And shortly after the, the, the Christmas holiday passed, and it was clear that folks were not getting released from prison. Prisoners in Palmyra, the prison in Palmyra, which is outside of Cali went on strike, and they made demands about establishing a route for dialogue. And I just want to be clear about how modest the goal for that initial hunger strike was, right, they were just asking to establish a path to creating a formal space for dialogue, dialoguing directly with the government. And in December, there was talks with directly with the government, and they suspended the hunger strike. But then, again, now in February, 20th, they went on hunger strike again, because there was no advances in making that space for dialogue happen. And ultimately, that hunger strike lasted 10 days, two people sewed their mouths shut to reject even water. And it was suspended last Friday, because there were, again, meetings with the government, there has yet to be a formal space for dialogue established, yet the, the stipulations for, for lifting the strike or suspending the strike were because they had met with the government and there was enough reason to discontinue a hunger strike, which I should mention, is extremely onerous under the conditions of Colombian prisons, which are already overcrowded. But, you know, that hunger strike, not only was to establish that path for a space of dialogue with the national government, but it was also to call out how bad the conditions were in these prisons, right. They're, they're dealing with water that is not safe. You know, several of them want psychosocial support and they're not getting it. And, you know, it's been quite a difficult situation, but I can't emphasize enough how modest the demands are. And even then, the government was not willing to meet with the political prisoners that put them in office on their terms, right. Just to put this in perspective, Gustavo Petro has met with former president Alvaro Uribe three times since he was elected, and he has yet to meet with the political prisoners. The people who helped put him in office, who helped get rid of Uribe. Let me, there's a couple of things I'd like to follow up on. To me, and we said this before, I mean the irony of not addressing these political prisoners when there is a call from the president of Colombia himself, you know, for other Latin American countries to release their political prisoners. It's, it's, it's hard to understand that, especially considering the fact that there is now a new vice ministry in Colombia that was specifically created and I believe it falls under the minister of the interior but I'm not 100% sure. But it's a new vice ministry of social dialogue and equality. They, he has a whole team of people prepared to talk and negotiate whenever and whoever is ready. And yet, the prisoners are ready, and you say it's modest demands, and yet that dialogue hasn't, hasn't happened. Are there legal issues? I mean, some of the, some of the crimes that have been put against the prisoners, is there a concern there with any of those? I mean, with any or all of them that some of them should remain in prison or is this just another form of political persecution? I mean, I think it's really important to point out that there are some very severe charges against some of the prisoners and you know, there's always going to be a legal question about in a full out amnesty versus a partial one or what constitutes that amnesty. But I think it's just again important to insist that the prisoners that were on hunger strike last month were not demanding amnesty. They were demanding a space for dialogue, a formal way of dialoguing directly with the government, right? Which the government has. And to your question, I mean, for me, what are the limits of that dialogue? What makes some sort of dialogue feasible while others are off the table? You know, it's a very difficult question to ask in Columbia right now too, because through the total peace policy of the government, they're currently embarking on negotiations with everything from left wing guerrilla groups to right wing paramilitary criminal groups, right? And I think a lot of us that are supporting the struggle of political prisoners right now, it's an unresolved question and we have not heard good answers from the state in regards to it. Let me, let me make a comment about that also. Sure. I think, what are the ways in which we can perhaps explain the slowness on the part of the government to address this issue of prisoners while we see that the government is attempting to address a number of different contradictions and in Columbia society by engaging in discussion with various forces might be because these issues that they seem to be, they seem to have prioritized more so than this issue of these young prisoners might be related to the kind of social pressure that they feel to address certain kinds of questions. The very fact that it appears that many people in Columbia sort of forgotten about these young people, it releases some of the pressure for them to really address this issue. The fact that they are engaged in advancing using the full weight of the legal system against these young folks, while not feeling any kind of pressure to address the issue of impunity. That is, who has, who was responsible for all of the people who died during the course of this rebellion. These questions have never been answered. Therefore, you know, they feel that they don't have the social pressure, the political pressure on them to really effectively address this. That's one piece of it. The other piece is that, you know, there are enormous political complexities in Columbia. Regarding the state Anthony alluded to that a moment ago, that there are certain questions that the government raised that they were going to attempt to address. But it appears that as a consequence of a reassessment of the balance of the forces in the Colombian state that the Patriot government backed away from we have to remember this is still a the the Patriot Marquez government. You know, they have latitude to do certain things, but the overall character of the state, and the forces are still control large chunks of it still resides with the the radical right wing. Does that to make, does that to attempt to apologize for some things that have not been done, but just to kind of, you know, pulling some elements and help us understand, you know, some of the complexities that people are facing here in this in this space. So that's true. I mean, this is, these are really good points you bring up because this is true for any new administration in any country, just because the presidency changes doesn't mean a lot of the other, the leadership management of other institution people are civilian employees, like the immigration services, for example, that have been there, you know, employees who have been there through multiple presidencies they don't they don't necessarily change just because they're because there's a new president has been elected. So, you can see how this would be a lot of things that have been inherited and aren't going to change overnight and that's not unique to Columbia. No, and that's why it's important, Terry, that that these kinds of discussions take place that the kind of work that that Anthony has helped to pull together and helping to bring attention to the situation that we support this and we help to amplify this because without the social and political pressure coming from inside and from external sources is to be very difficult for us to finally resolve this issue with the young people in prison. Are the majority of the 300 young, I guess I would say young like under 25 under 20, like, I don't have the ages I mean it's been extremely difficult to get good information about this, because it has not been systematized, and I just wanted to correct myself it is 17 people who are named to the streets and for who were released to that out of the more than 200 that better will promise. But yeah, no it's been extremely difficult to get good information but yes the majority are are young, young people and, and that was another remarkable part about this, this uprising right, and it was that young people came out into the streets people who were not necessarily part of trade unions, formerly members of social movements or political parties took politics into their own hands and struggled for dignity, where they lived. They became protagonists in their lives in a way that for a lot of people really rocked the boat. And I think that also has to do with why a lot of folks within the government are a little nervous about getting too deep with this right. What is on the table for dialogue under the better administration and you know for me I think that he kind of spelled it out a little bit during his victory speech after he was elected. When he said that we are going to develop capitalism in Columbia, not because we worship it, but because first we must overcome pre modernity in Columbia, and for me, I think, you know, when you're dealing with the questions of an uprising. And this kind of political activity that really rocks the status quo, people get a little bit nervous about it. But what is also clear to me is that the folks that were out there on the street were struggling for dignity they had a very clear mind. At least at first it was about reversing and protesting against a neoliberal tax reform. And then it became about resisting state violence and the endurance during legacy of colonial capitalism on Colombians. Right. And so, I, for me, I guess what what is, what are the limits to this dialogue are yet to be demonstrated right and I think as a jamu saying it's really important to put that political pressure on the new administration to see, you know, what what is possible, because, you know, the folks that we're working with from Basel at I wanted spent 15 months, at least in pre trial detention, despite maintaining their innocence. Right. For the crimes that they're accused of, and they're looking at spending up to 50 years in prison, if they're convicted. Right. These are entire people's lives entire families lives communities that are being affected by this and why. Right. Yeah, I mean, it's really listening to you describe who they are and and having been there during the power that it's it's heartbreaking on a certain level, because so it was the young people that took up the voice for the nation or the majority of the nation and I, you know, I remember talking to people's parents, grandparents, and the older population saying, we should have done this. It should, you know, we have left it up to the young people to make the change and it should have been us and a lot of guilt. And, and then of course that guilt turned in into enormous support for the movement that these young people were built and ultimately change the government. So it's heartbreaking to hear that the nation isn't behind them now. It's, it's heartbreaking. Now, just this week, several members of families that were affected by the violence families of political prisoners, former political prisoners themselves traveled to bullet once again to try and establish a meeting with the government, but they were unable to. And this is, this is, you know, I've met with family members of people who were forcibly disappeared, whose children were murdered during the protests and it honestly, I mean, it kind of feels like traveling into, I don't know, like 1979 Argentina or something. Like it, we're talking about that scope of, of state violence but it happens under the radar. And because it's become I guess so normalized in the eyes of a lot of the international community about Columbia that Columbia is a violent place or whatever. We don't necessarily hear about it as much but it does continue. So, you know, I think that's another part of what we're trying to raise here is, you know, like, we're here to support the political prisoners but we're also here to talk about the violence that occurred and the enduring impunity that Ajama mentioned, you know, just in late February, there's a popular tribunal in one of the neighborhoods in Cali called Siloé. And they found the state guilty of continuous genocide, right, because just in that neighborhood over 16 people were killed during the national strike. Right. And nobody really knows their names, besides the folks that work on this. But again, these are communities that are affected before it. And who is, who is perpetrating that violence and to what ends is, is again, the what what what status quo was being sought to be preserved through that violence. Well, and again it goes back to, you know, not all the institutions and leadership change just because the country gets a new president. What I mean, what do you do with the existing national police the existing military. Do you fire everyone and then if you let them all go then what happens to them. You start working from the outside, from the outside in versus the inside out. And what you know it is it's extraordinarily complex it's just to me the big you know listening to you to me the biggest thing is what I'm hearing is that these young people have pretty much just been forgotten. Well, they have to certain extent and and that's why this issue is important because with Patriot commitment to this concept of total peace, in which they are attempting to engage some of the paramilitary forces and guerrilla groups to bring about a new environment in where there in fact is peace and the possibility of people to live with security and the implication of national reconciliation. But the question the question is when it comes to this situation where you have continued impunity coming out of the rebellion. We have these people young people refer to the young people because as Anthony said, most of the folks who was going to the streets and we're engaged directly with the authorities were youthful, if you will, so with these young people still in prison. How do you have total peace. You have national reconciliation when this situation continues to fester like this. So, that's why this has to be resolved has. Austin. Yeah, you froze. You want to turn your video off. You want to turn your video off and do audio only and see if that works. Maybe he doesn't know we froze. I think the jungles point is, is pretty clear though, I mean, it can there be total peace without the political prisoners. Right. And as you're asking how, if there is an infrastructure and the political will supposedly to dialogue. Well, these people are asking to dialogue. Now, why do they need to go on hunger strike to be heard that, you know, and we expected this to change but I also just want to mention to that like, I think, part of the decision that we made as a collective is, is to support, you know, raising funds for the legal defense of, of people facing charges, right because we know that we can't leave it up to the state to resolve this even if it is a progressive government, and, you know, a lot of the folks that have been able to get out of prison was thanks to a good legal defense but unfortunately, you know, a lot of people cannot afford it for numerous reasons. And, you know, that was the decision we made pretty early on that we wanted to find lawyers that were familiar with this, if they're from the committee and solidarity with political prisoners, or other folks that we've known over the years to to work with that representing defendants pro bono and, you know, anything we want to alleviate the material impediments to having a justifiable legal defense in the court of law. And so a lot of the fundraising that we've been doing is in regards to that. And can the fundraising be done through your website. Absolutely. Yeah, you can go to Columbia Freedom Collective.org. And there's the means all of the money goes directly to the legal defense, the pro bono legal defense of the people from Paso de la Guante, the resistance point. I can read more about the cases of the folks that that we are working with on on the website, but it's, it's a campaign that's growing and as I mentioned in the coming month, there are going to be several hearings that are taking off with the cases. There are several of the folks who are released, albeit after way too long in prison pre trial detention in December, but now the cases are picking up again, and we'd love to encourage folks to, you know, join us in packing the courts virtually because currently, all the hearings are online. And that means that we can sit in on the hearings and listen to the hearings and show not just the folks that are being tried the defendants that they have support that they're not alone but also demonstrate that people around the world care about what's going on. And so if you're interested in getting in touch with us there, you can also go to our website and get in touch with us and we can send you information about how to participate in these virtual hearings. All we ask is that you keep your microphones off and just put your name and your location like country location in your username so that you know the folks that are in the meeting know how much support is being shown for the folks being tried. That would be great. That's a really great act of solidarity. That's really wonderful. I will share with the audience that all of the articles and links that we're talking about I have included in the program notes so if you are watching us on YouTube and just go into the program description for this episode, all of those links are there including articles and websites and all of that. So, so check those program notes and click and make your donation and then be sure to join the hearings that is really a fantastic global act of solidarity. And easy enough to do. Yeah, it's really great. And I wonder, you know, a genre as we're as if you, you know, you talked on about total peace, and that this piece and that this component with the political prisoners needs to get resolved in order, you know, for the new government to pursue total peace and reconciliation within the country, you have been involved with several delegations. And most recently on the Caribbean coast, one of them to I believe in that general vicinity. Why can you share with the audience what those delegations were created for and and what you saw and what the results. Or what the impending results are. Yeah. But thanks so much, Terry, and I'm hoping I was trying to share again, the report that I wrote on that mission that we were on a little bit over a month ago. That link your article link is in is that is in the program note. Hello. So now we lost his audio and everything. Let me see. Let's see if we can get him back otherwise. Let me pull up I want to pull up the article, because I want you all to see this and I'm sorry for the delay maybe we can get him back while I look for the article hold on just a second. Let me share that there is. Okay, I was trying to buy some time to pull up your article. This is what happens when you do a program with answer the desk. Why from Kali, Columbia, we are going on some now I went from my computer to my phone now I'm back on my computer so let's hopefully they give us at least five more minutes or so. But I was sharing that. Yeah, if you have that that link to the report that I wrote. We publish a black agenda report. I think that was February 18th or so that would be great to share with the audience. It is in the program notes, but I'll put it in the chat as well. I think we lost him again. Yeah. Looks like it. Are you there? I'm here. Here's the but we lost a genre again. Fantastic. Actually, I have to as I will. I can hear you. Maybe you should shut your oh we just lost you completely. Why don't you shut your video off and just do audio. I think what the audience would be okay with that and that might. Because we really want to hear about this, this delegation. The delegation actually went to the Pacific Coast and visited a number of territories. The parts that we went to was is considered to be the rural parts of the one of into the one of into a district. We're losing you. We lost you again. Well, so one thing we know maybe Wi-Fi infrastructure is not so good. Or maybe not this time of day. Yeah, he's so let me I want to put this in the chat. And then maybe we should. We were hoping to talk with with a genre about was to was to kind of thread the needle between, you know, with what is happening with the political prisoners this call for total peace, and how that is unfolding and there have been several human rights delegations and observers who have gone into some of the particularly and via Calca and witnessed and taken testimony from what these communities need and a lot of the prisoners. A lot of these political prisoners a lot of these young people come from these exact communities. We had hope to talk about that delegation but Jean, who are you here. Yeah, okay so quickly while we have you. You can't stay connected. So, so is there anything else Anthony that we should I just would like to encourage folks to check out the website that's Columbia freedom collective.org. We're trying to put regular updates about issues facing political prisoners on the website as regularly as possible. There's also space for you to make a tax-adaptable donation if you're in the United States. We really appreciate that and we can ensure you that that's going to go directly into the legal defense of folks that are facing pretty steep charges. So, thank you so much Terry for inviting us it's too bad we didn't get to hear from a job about that delegation. I know it was a very intense but hopefully fruitful experience so the call for total peace and in its and in that total piece is peace for the entire region and creating a peace zone and so we'll we'll have a follow up conversation, but also Anthony for you and your work, just to remind the audience that all of you joining this can listen to the the the court proceedings for online. And so again it's just such a wonderful act of solidarity and that again is is on the website and again all of these links are in the program notes. So you can easily reference all of them. So thank you so much Anthony really wonderful to meet you and and a really important conversation I'm so glad you had time, time to join us. Thank you. And I just want to remind the audience that you've been watching what the F is going on in Latin America in the Caribbean. Thank you so much to every Thursday 730pm Eastern on YouTube live YouTube channels for the Convo couch code pink and popular resistance.org and post broadcast recordings can be found at Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so so thank you everyone thank you Anthony, and we'll see all of you next week. You