 What's up? Welcome to the best fitness podcast in the world. In fact, you'll get a lot of entertainment and current events here as well. Today's episode, we interviewed Michael Chernow. This guy went from drug addict, drug dealer to multimillionaire entrepreneur. His stories are crazy. This episode had us on the edges of our seats and he started a new company called creatures of habit where he makes a product called protagonist, which is this one right here that I'm holding my hand right here. It's basically oatmeal except with 30 grams of protein. There's some probiotics in here. It's not artificially sweetened. So it's low in sugar, any sugar at all. In fact, I'm looking at it right now. Six grams of sugar, eight grams of fiber, 30 grams of protein. Like I said, very healthy added vitamin D probiotics. We like this so much. We're actually probably going to invest in the company. But we want to ask our audiences to try it out. Let us know what you think of this product. Do you like the taste? Do you like it as much as we do? Does it digest well for you like it does for us? Let us know. In fact, we got 25% off. That's the biggest discount you'll get on protagonist that you'll find anywhere. So go to creaturesofhabit.com. That's K-R-E-A-T-U-R-E-S of habit.com forward slash mine pump. Then use this code MP25 get 25% off your purchase of protagonist. Try it out. Let us know what you think. Again, we're probably going to invest the company because we like it so much. All right. Here comes the show. I've listened to some of your interviews and conversations and I actually, I mean, I kind of started a piece together that we probably had a little similar history and I'm like, I really want to get into some of that stuff because I don't hear you talk about it very much. Or at least I haven't heard you talk on anyone's podcast. You briefly say it and then you kind of move on from it. Well, creatures of habit, I mean, the story is really, it's based around my transition from addicted to, like, I mean, I could say it. I feel like I'm living like a, my wildest dreams life, you know? I mean, I'm not sitting on a billion dollars, but I am definitely, like I wake up 90% of the time fucking stoked, you know? And like, that was just not the case for years. Before we got on, we were, we were talking about some of both of our pasts and so with that. Now, when you were hustling, were, were you addicted or doing drugs at the same time or did that come later or did that even start before you got in, got into selling? Oh, I mean, you know, I, growing up in New York City, I, I, I mean, I should back up a little bit. My, my household was pretty tough. My dad was a really, really rough dude. And military, yeah. No, my grandfather was military. My father was supposed to be military, but he was a juvenile diabetic. So because of that, I honestly think that that, that just developed some serious animosity and resentment in him. And he just, it ultimately manifested in anger. Um, and so he couldn't become, you know, be a military, he couldn't be in the military. He was also like a phenomenal baseball player, but the diabetes kept him from taking it, taking it forward. Um, and so he was just an angry dude. He was an angry dude. We lived in a really small apartment, um, on, uh, does that mean like, cause I've heard you mention this before and I haven't, but I haven't heard you go into detail. Like, is that, he's loud and yelling all the time. He's controlling. Was he physically violent? Was he verbally abusive? Like, he was, he was all the above. I mean, you know, when I was, well, the, the physical stuff didn't really start to happen until I was about 10, 11 years old. Um, and then when I, when I was 12 years old, that's when it became like a full-fledged fight between the two of us because I was just not afraid of him anymore. Yeah. Um, was he that way with your mom too? Or was it just you? He, he wasn't, he didn't like, he didn't like strike my mom. Yeah. Um, but he would shaker and throw her, you know, and I witnessed that a lot, um, a number of times and my sister actually was spared. Like he did not touch her. I mean, he, he, he would yell and, and, and, and, and, you know, yell at her, but he never, never touched my sister. I'm the, I'm the youngest. Oh, you're the youngest. Oh. Anyway, I was, I was, oh, from a young age, from as early as I can remember, I was always trying to get out of my house. I always wanted out. I didn't want to be there. I wasn't comfortable there. I didn't feel safe there. I shared a bedroom with my sister. So, you know, and my sister and I had a, like, you know, she was, we were close in age, 15 months apart. So it wasn't like, um, you know, like having a younger brother as, as a, as I think as, as an older sister that's so close in age, you're just kind of like, you know, I got my friends. Of course. You know, um, so, you know, it was, it was just tough for me. It was tough for me growing up in that house and I wanted out as early as I could. So I slept at friends' houses constantly. My mother and I had a great relationship and my mom is a super loving person, but she was, she was also abused. And she, she made the abnormal normal, you know, she was, she was exposed to this, this, this crazy dude who today I've completely forgiven. I don't blame my father for any of the shit that I did. I really don't. I feel like I was predisposed to do the things that I, that I did, you know, as I was coming up in, in, in, in my life. But, um, anyway, so because of that, I was out. I was always out. I was always like trying to stay at friends' houses and. Did you ever try to run away? Oh, I was like, I, like, live, I lived in the runaway letter. I was just like, I, you know, I just like wrote, I'm running away all the time. Yeah, me too. I mean, I was, my parents called the cops on me and arrested me for running away. And that was when I learned that I had no rights until I turned 18 years old. Well, the crazy thing for me was that, um, it got pretty ugly. You know, uh, I, I, and I, I, once I, once I was like 12 years old, I was probably not a good. I mean, I can, I'm not probably, I was a terrible child. I was a terrible child. I was smoking cigarettes. I was out late, you know, they had no control over me. Um, and, you know, and that's when things got really bad in my house. And, uh, child services got involved because the cops would show up. And so now child services involved, my parents didn't really have a lot of money. Child services said that, you know, a male and a female teen are not able to actually share a bedroom. Like you're not supposed, they're not supposed to share a bedroom. So, you know, the child services came, they said they can't sleep in the same bedroom. So I, I had to tell them that I was sleeping on the couch in the living room, which wasn't true because I never slept at home. Um, and then it got to a point where I started selling drugs. I was doing drugs. My parents would find drugs. I would come home. This is at 13. How old are you? Fort, yeah. That probably when they started finding drugs and, and knew I was selling drugs, it was like 14, you know, you started selling even that, that early, huh? Oh yeah. Um, end of my freshman year of high school. And, um, and then one, one day we just, my father and I got into a really, really bad one, um, physical and cops showed up and child services came and they told my parents that out, they were going to put me in foster care. If my mother didn't, if my mother didn't get me out of the situation, they had no choice but to put me in foster care. And I was like, there's no way. There's no way. Like I already live on my own. Like you're not taking me to foster care. So I told my mother that night. I was like, look, I'm out. You know, like you're going to have to find me, but I'm, I'm leaving. I'm done. I'm like, there's, there's no way. A, I can't live with that guy anymore. B, he, but he clearly does not love me, you know, which, which I now know he did, he just didn't know how to, he just, he really did not know how to be a father. And, and some people just don't, I think, you know, well, especially if you'd come from something like that. Right. Yeah. And my grandfather was like a hardcore naval officer, hardcore military guy, um, not easy on my dad, but, um, anyway, I moved out. Um, I moved into alumni hall, which was like a, an NYU dorm. I was shacking up with an NYU freshman and, uh, I lived in the dorm for a while and then, um, I promised my mom that I would go to outpatient rehab. She was like, that's the deal. Like, you know, I want you to try to figure your shit out. Like you, you're 15, 16 years old. Like this is insane. Um, but it wasn't insane for New York city kids. It just wasn't, you know, like I was, I was working in restaurants. I was working in nightclubs at 16 years old. I was working in like the hottest nightclub in New York city as a barback. Um, and then, you know, but I just learned, I like, I learned, and I think developed the skill set that I have today, which is ultimately engaging with human beings and developing relationships. Here's the giveaway for today's episode. Maps strong, the strong man inspired workout program. Everybody loves, and you can get it for free. Here's how you win. Leave a comment below in the first 24 hours that we drop this episode. Subscribe to this channel, turn on notifications, do all those things. If we like your comments, we'll notify you in the comment section. That's what we're going to notify you that you won free access to maps from one more thing. We got some sales going on right now, two workout bundles on sale. The skinny guy bundle, which includes all of these programs over here, 50% off, and then the fit mom bundle, which includes all of these other programs over here, that's also 50% off. So half off in order to get the discount, click on the link at the top of the description below to get our discount. All right, here comes the show. Do you remember like specific scenarios that happened to you? Like in those young years when that started to kind of come together for you, like how important relationship building was and all that stuff. Well, I think it was something that I needed to develop even younger because I wanted my friend's parents to like me. You know, I wanted my friend's parents to like me so that they would allow me to stay over and I remember it like very clearly young being like, I have to, I have to make them think I'm a good kid. And so that they can take me away with them on the weekends to their weekend homes, you know. And so that was like sort of the beginning of it for me. And I was good at it. You know, I was good at it. You know, I also was unfortunately like there was sexual abuse by a sports coach while I was trying to find love from a man, you know, like a fatherly figure at a young age. And this is on you. On me. At what age are you? Eight. Oh, fuck. Yeah. Wow. Eight, nine, eight, eight, nine, 10. Wow. I didn't know what was happening. I was going to say, when did that come together that that was even happening? A lot of times when shit like that happens that young. I had no idea. Honestly, I knew that this guy was awesome, treated me like a son, took me fishing all the time with other kids. I wasn't alone. But I also knew that like he would put me in the shower and like put shampoo on my head and like wipe my body down, you know. And there was never like rape or anything like that. But it was like weird creepy shit like that. Yeah, yeah. And, but I just didn't think of it. Yeah. That's, you know how shitty that is? Especially from a boy who's, who isn't getting the right love from his dad. Like at that age, you're probably not even connecting the dots that that's not normal. You're just like, Oh, finally, a father, yeah. Father figure who loves me. This is what it looks like. And he was also an auxiliary cop. Like the guy, you know, so, and I, and, and for me, you know, I was ashamed of this for a long time. I didn't know I figured it out when I was like 16. I was like, Oh my God. Whole, I was like, that actually happened to me. And I didn't talk about it. I used to get high and plan this dude's, like I was going to like take him out. You know, like that was like the way I would go. That's where my head would go. Cause I was like, this dude, how dare somebody do that to such a young kid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, did that take a couple of years for you to process to get to that space of like, Oh man, this makes me really angry looking back. I mean, I think when I found out, it was sort of like, I was, I was a complete renegade, um, in my life. Somehow I made it through high school and I actually graduated on time with an 80, 80, uh, 80 GPA. But, uh, yeah, I think I was, it, it, it, it, it, it evoked an enormous amount of anger, you know, um, but now I'm totally cool with it. I'm like, I've forgiven the guy. I mean, I don't, he's, I think he's dead. I mean, I know he, I know he got caught with, uh, a bunch of child pornography. I actually went to jail. Um, but is that what made it obvious or because obviously even at, I don't know, even at 16 with your kind of background, I don't even know if I even pieced together still at that point that like, what had happened to you. Was it like really later when you're like, Oh, for sure. No, I mean, I think at that age, I kind of like, I kind of, you know, it was, I kind of like looked at it as, as, as. An opportunity for me to feel loved, you know, when I, but, but then I was like, but wait a second, like there were things like I would sleep at this guy's house, you know, like we would sleep in the same bed together. This is weird. It was weird. Yeah. And, uh, but, but I can honestly say, man, that like, I really love the guy. Like I did, you know, there wasn't, there wasn't like, and so I think speaking about it in this form, in this, on this platform, in this format actually is really awesome to be able to do because I know it's apparently one in four men are sexually molested at some point in their life, which is really drastic. Oh yeah. You know, men are more often when you include prison, men are more often sexually assaulted. That's a fatless statistic. A lot of people don't realize. Is that, no, is that what skews that number? Cause like, okay. So you throw, you throw a prison in there. That's like crazy. Right. There's a lot of people and a lot of men in prison, you know? Well, I didn't know that. Yeah. So, you know, that, that happened, uh, you know, and, and, uh, again, like I said in the beginning conversation, like I don't regret any of it. I think everything that's happened, I'm grateful for because it's made me who I am today, you know, and, and, and be able to actually talk about the experience and potentially somebody listening can feel a little bit of relief, you know? Um, and so, you know, I, I moved out. I was, I was living like a, like a lunatic. Uh, Well, you're living in the dorms right now. We're living in the dorms 14, 15 age. We're slinging and hustling to probably make your cash to pay for your food and do shit. And working and always had a legit job though. Like from 12 years old, I got my first job in a restaurant. I worked in a restaurant from 12 until 28 when I opened my first restaurant. Okay. So why work and why do a legitimate job when you're already making money, uh, on the side, you know, selling drugs or whatever? I think the, um, I honestly don't think that I believed what I was doing on the side was worthy. Oh, I see. You know, like, I think I felt like I needed to have a legitimate job. A, because I really loved it. Actually, like I really loved it. I love being in the, in the restaurants at night and the night clubs, like being the youngest kid always, um, you know, I just, there was something that was, it was, it was thrilling to me. I feel like I'm an adrenaline junkie. Like I loved that stuff. What's your, what's your relationship with money like at this point? I mean, because for a kid that age and you're doing these jobs and you're hustling on the side, you probably had an abundance of money in comparison to probably your peers and stuff like that. I did. What are you doing with, are you blowing it like crazy? I know you're a fashion guy. So you like buying hell of fucking expensive stuff. I mean, I, I, I had at that, at that time, you know, North Face was like a big thing in New York City. So I had like 20 North Face jackets. I had every pair of sneakers you could possibly imagine. Of course. Um, you know, I mean, I, I, I really, I think that the money got in my, in my late teens, 18, 19, 20, 21, you know, I would like work late on a Friday night to like two or three in the morning. I would leave work, take a car to the airport, hop on a jet blue flight to Miami, you know, get down to Miami the next, you know, six o'clock in the morning or whatever it was, um, or get on the flight at six and get there at eight a.m. or nine a.m. Get a hotel and just absolutely go ham. Party. Party. Oh, wow. Party. Um, I did that for a while. That was like my weekend. Um, you know, I would like come to and I'm like the floor of the hotel room in Miami. Wow. Now, when you're doing that, are you rolling down there with a crew and friends and people like that? Are you doing this solo and just like meeting people down there? Like, what do you do? I mean, I always would roll with a friend, but, you know, I had a, I had a squad down there too, you know, that it was just like, yeah. Now, at this point, cause you're, you're hustling and stuff like that. Are you, are you, are you doing hustle out there too? So are you, are you actually dealing? No, you're not, you're not dealing in your area. I'm just, I'm, you know, I'm going down there to like just fun. Yeah. Just a good time. Yeah. Party life and stuff. And it's so weird. Cause when I, when I think back on it now, you know, now, I mean, we'll get into like where I'm at today, which is totally different. Oh my God. I mean, it's just so bizarre to, to really close my eyes, sit here with you guys and really think back on those times where I could not be more of a different human being today. Like I could, and I, and again, like, I don't know if I'd want to hang out. I actually, I would not want to hang out with that guy at all right now. Even though I don't regret that guy or have any ill will towards that guy. But today. Like you would never catch me it. Like I haven't been to a nightclub in like 15 years, you know? And I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that. No, you've just evolved, but I've just evolved and I just, I can't fathom. You know, I also, towards the end of my drinking and partying days. Um, I got, I was angry and violent. You know, a lot of fights, a lot of fights, a lot of fights at the end. You know, probably the last two years. You're not a very big guy. You get your ass kicked a lot. Or were you, how are you doing? Interestingly enough, I actually, I mean, I certainly took a couple of L's, but I was always scrappy. I was always the first guy to throw a punch and that was my thing. And, and, and it got, it got really frustrating for my friends, you know? And, and I, that is one thing I do regret. Because I was fun to be around most of the time. Yeah. But if somebody said something to me or somebody did something that I didn't like and I was fucked up, yeah, I just clock them. And, and, and I got 86 from every single bar south of Houston, north of Delancey, east of Essex and west of Allentree. I mean, I just, there was like a block. There was like a four block radius in the Lower East Side. Now here's, here's a here. I'm going to make you do a crazy leap right now poster with you. Can you connect that attribute about yourself and how bad it was on how it served you in life today? We're going to throw the punch fear first punch. Yeah, I'll tell you, I'll tell you for sure that. Well, the first thing that happened was a couple of the guys that really helped me find my way were competitive Muay Thai guys, Muay Thai kickboxers. And when I got sober, these guys dragged me off the street and threw me right into a Muay Thai ring and I became obsessed with Muay Thai. And what age is that at? Twenty three. OK, so we got a huge, we got to fill the gap here still. We're not there yet. Yeah. We're like we're at 16 flying down to Miami. OK, so well, I didn't start flying down to Miami probably until I was like 19, 20, 18, 19, 20, 16. I was still running around. You know, I was going, I and at that point, I was not just selling weed. You know, I was selling everything 16, 17, 18, 19. I was I was traveling all over the, you know, up and down the East Coast, going to raves and like showing up with like suitcases worth of shit. And it was insane. Crazy question. You've probably never been asked. Favorite drug to sell and why? Serious. I mean, I mean, I mean, I so I mean, this is crazy, but fuck it, whatever. Yeah, yeah, I know you haven't been asked about this. I'm curious. So we have. So ketamine in those days used to come in a case of 144 boxes, a hundred for a case of 144 bottles. And you'd buy you buy a case of ketamine or cases of ketamine and you'd basically pour it out onto plates and you'd put you do like three or four bottles onto a plate. You put it in the oven. You pull it out and it crystallizes. And then you scrape it up and you you bag it. And the amount of money that I made on ketamine when I was like 16 and 17 at these raves was just insane. How are they doing it like crack? How are they are they smoking it? No, you sniff it. Oh, you sniff it. Oh, so you break it up and then it turns into like a powder. So you basically throw it into the oven. It crystallizes and and then you and then you scrape it up with like a like a credit card, like you scratch it off the plate. Yeah. And you know, we would do this, you know, it was great. And it was so crazy. I haven't thought about this in so long. That's why I'm making you go here at that age. Where do you even get that? OK, how do you even get kind of because that's a that's a medical. I mean, I lived in New York City, you know, and I and I and I had my hands in everything. Yeah, there was a guy, obviously, that's so funny. We just installed a landline in our house. And there is a picture, the landline that sits on our on our kitchen counter. It's got a picture of my wife, a picture of me and a picture of my grandmother and my kids all day long. Just pick it up and push the buttons and call us. So they're calling me. Perfect timing. You boys only knew what I was talking about. But. Yeah, so there was a guy that lived on Second Street. And this is this is like in the 90s, when downtown New York City on the east side was just bad news. It was just bad news, you know, like you did not go down there. For any other reason, you know, unless you lived there and if you lived there, it was pretty, it was rough. But if you were if you were going to the East Village Lower East Side, back in those days, they called it Alphabet City. You were going there with intention. Why is it called Alphabet City? Because after First Avenue, it was Avenue A, B, C and D. Yeah, and it was just bad news down there. But there was a guy on Second Street across the street from this gas station. Um, his name was Fantasia. And his street name is I got to be a street name. I'm not giving you I'm not giving you his full name. No, of course I would never. His name is Fantasia. But but you would go into his apartment and he was married to this woman who was super sweet. I mean, it's crazy to think I was a teenager doing this shit. But you go into his apartment and his wife was a dominatrix. And so I'd walk into this. And you're just. I'm going to the right to grab the, you know, to meet with with Fantasia. And then I look on the left and there is like a crucifix hung up on the wall with shackles and the whole thing. And I mean, there wasn't people hanging on the crucifix while I was there. But, you know, she wasn't, you know, dressed in this, you know, just wild man, wild New York. I was also in nightclubs, like the tunnel and limelight and palladium. I had my studio for four still thing. No, no, that was before me. But, you know, tunnel limelight. I mean, me and my 14 year old friends, you know, 15, 16 year old friends, we'd show up to these nightclubs and like the drag queens would be like, kiss me on the cheek and like you kiss them on the cheek. And they like, just pull the lychee in, you know. I mean, I had so much fun in those days, too. I'm not it was definitely not like a outside of this stuff at home where it was gloom and doom. Like I had a good escape. Oh, man, I had a blast. I really did until it got ugly for me, you know, until until the drinking and the using became it was it wasn't fun. It wasn't what I was it wasn't what I said. I like the the the intention was not what I had set out for initially, which was to escape and have a good time. And, you know, really just like, you know, how did you avoid getting pinched? I mean, young kid like that. How'd you have the smarts to not and you're messing with as many things as you're messing with? How how did you not get get caught up? I only had one one run in and this was right. It was either. I don't remember it was right after my 15th birthday or right. I think it was right after my 15th birthday. I was on 10th Street and 3rd Avenue. I had a backpack filled with probably 52 gram bags of weed, a scale, a bunch of empty baggies in my backpack. There's no lion. And I was recreational. I mean, I don't even know how we got into this crazy conversation, but fuck it. My friend was on was was sitting on on the stoop. It was that night we were drinking forties and I had to pee. And like an idiot, I didn't like take my bag off and leave it on the stoop. When I had stuff in my when I was carrying something like that, I never took it off. Of course. And so I walk over across the street. I said, Al, if the cops come, give me a whoop. And sure enough, I'm pissing on a tree and these cops roll up. And I'm like, I'm on the sidewalk. They they slowly approach on the on the street. And I just like immediately, you know, put it in my pants and start walking down down the block. And I see a van like three or four cars in front of me like down the down the down 10th Street. So I'm walking down 10th Street and I'm like, if I can get to that van without them coming out to stop me or call my name, I can get to the van. I could drop my bag off my back and just keep walking. And, you know, maybe they won't and I'm drunk at this point. So that's that's what I did. I walked, dropped my bag. They didn't call my name. They weren't like, hey, kid, I keep walking and they're following like slowly. And I'm like, are they not, did they not see me pee? I'm like, am I getting away with this shit? And then they stopped the car, put it in reverse and I fucking bolt. And I get, I'm like, I run down to First Avenue, cut up, cut down First Avenue. I get to A Street, to St. Mark's. And I'm I realized that in my backpack is all my school shit with a fucking name on it. You know what I mean? Like, it's not just the weed, right? Like I got, you know, I'm like, address everything. And so I'm like, oh my God, you know, and I didn't live at my I didn't live at home at this point. I was living, I was not living at home. So I was like, you know, they're going to either show up at my parent's house. Like I'm just like, I'm going to go face the noise. Fuck it. I'm fifth. I was either 15 or 16. I'm like, fuck it. So I walk back around and walk down 10 Street. I would never have done that if I wasn't drunk, by the way, I'm sure. I'm sure I would have just like dealt with the repercussions and just been like, there's no way I'm facing these cops. I get their bag is gone. I walk down the street and the cops were in between a car. They put they jumped out of they jumped out in between the car. They threw me up against the fence and they're like, you're fucking done. Well, they were waiting for you. Yeah, you are done. And, you know, they said we got everything. And I basically I said, look, man, I just turn. I don't remember again, it was 15 or 16. I was like, I just turned 16 years old. My friends and I put all of our money together. We just got down from Dykeman and we bought all this wheat for, you know, for the next week to smoke together. And the cop was like, don't fucking don't don't, you know, the measuring or the scale. Sure enough, that cop. Let me go. Wow. Wow. Cop, let me go. Took all my shit. But he let me go. What do you attribute to? What do you think it was you coming back? Were you calm and collective about it? Like, I think it should be to 1995. New York City cops just found 50, 50 bags of weed. And, you know, and they were basically just like nothing's probably nothing's going to happen to this kid. Right, right. Do we want to deal with this paperwork? And we just got 50, 50 bags of weed. Like, I really do think that I think that at that time in New York City, those were like the questions these cops would ask themselves, right? Like it's a 15 year old kid. Yeah. What are they going to do? They're going to put them on probation. Or maybe send them to, you know, send me to Juvie. Yeah. But like, it's not like he's going and he's not like, you know, and so they scared the living shit out of me. They cuffed me and then they said, this is your lucky fucking day. And I was it, you know. That was the only time I really had a bad run. And now there was a guy that I used to do business with. And he was insane. He was one of the one of the bigger dealers in the city at the time. And he has a part. He sold everything out of his apartment and he lived across the street from a police station. Wow. Literally on 20th Street. It's so great. Across the street from the precinct. That's wild. And, you know, I got away. I got away with, you know, I really did. I got outside of that time that I got robbed. That was the scary moment. Yeah, let's talk about that for a second. That story, you told that off air. I was that's a pretty insane story. That if you wouldn't mind telling that that's a. Yeah, so I was 19. I was living in an apartment on 9th Street between B and C. This is when I was either 18 or 19. I think I was 19 though. And this neighborhood, this is Alphabet City. This neighborhood is starting to change in 1980, 1998, 1999 is where when I lived there. And I had two roommates. One of them, he and I had been doing business together for years, actually. Like he was like, he lived in Jersey. He was older than me. But he was like, I was like his New York City connect. And then he decided to move into the city. And, you know, we got, we got a place together. And then we had this other this other friend of ours take the third bedroom. Now, mind you, my bedroom, I'm not exaggerating was the size of this table. I mean, it was like, they, this was like a, this was like maybe a one bedroom, a futon, like wall to wall. Like it was, it was ridiculous. But that was like East Village apartments. Those, you know, then probably still now. And, and I lived in this little tiny bedroom filled with all my shit. And we were, we weren't selling anything out of the apartment. But that was our, that was where, that was where we stored, you know, that's where we had all of our stuff. And we made a pact with each other that we never bring anybody to the apartment, you know, especially unless it was like a girlfriend or a very close friend that we all knew, but you definitely didn't bring anybody that you were working with to the apartment. And one day a month before this incident happened, I came into the apartment and there were like four people that I did not know and would have never invited into this apartment there. And one of my roommates, not the one that I'd been working with for years, the one that I had never worked with, but was a friend, was smoking and drinking with these dudes. And I walked into my room immediately. I was like, I want no part of this. And I heard him saying all sorts of shit, you know, I got bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop. And he wasn't even involved. But he was like, do do do do do do do do do do. Like just trying to be a big guy. Oh man. And when they left, I was like, dude, what are you doing? Like why would you put us in a position like that? At like, what, like, what are you smoking, dude? And, you know, he was like, well, I can do what I want, this is my crib. I was like, whatever, I'm not going to fight with him. So a month later, I, you know, I was walking into my apartment. I was with one of my best friends from high school. Who's not involved in the business. Not involved in the business. Put the key in the door, turn the key and these guys rushed in and, you know, duck taped us, threw us in the bat, threw us in the bathtub, pistol with me. And then, you know, it was three guys, they kept on coming in with a, you know, they were putting on North Face jackets and they were like, you know, they were like, what, where is it, where is it? And they got me for like, you know, 40 grand in cash, five pounds of weed. And there were two saves bolted to the ground and they wanted the code. And I actually did not give them the code. Oh my God, serious? I didn't give them the code to save. And there was a, there was a few reasons why, A, I think it goes back to sort of like my fearless mentality that I've always had and I still have to this day. It was a Friday at three o'clock in the afternoon. So I knew these guys weren't killing anybody. I didn't think that they were gonna kill me. I really didn't think that they were gonna kill me. And, God, it takes balls to take that gamble, right? You're getting pistol whipped, you're getting duct taped. They're definitely serious, right? They're serious, however, I felt like I knew one of them and there were two guys that were definitely not playing games. The one guy who I know now orchestrated the whole thing was this who I thought I knew and actually I did. Are they ski masked up or something? No, no mask, no nothing. Two of them had guns. One white guy, one black guy and one Puerto Rican guy. And Puerto Rican dude and the black dude, Puerto Rican dude was huge, black guy was like dreaded up and small and white dude was, he like came into the bathroom when they were duct taping me and he was like, I'm sorry, I have to do this. And that's when I knew that like- Okay, here the week one. All right, I'm not, these dudes are not gonna kill me. Right, he's already apologized to me already. Yeah, these dudes are not gonna kill me. They just wanted what I had. So anyway, that went down and it was- How much was in the safe at the time, you know? It would have been over for me and my roommates, cause it wasn't weed, you know. Oh. Yeah. It would have been real bad. So anyway, and the funny thing was, not the funny thing, but like in the, I had the weed in the fridge and it had been there for a while and literally the day before I called up this dude who unfortunately is dead now. And I said, yo man, nobody wants a shit. It's not moving, it's outdoors, it's leafy, it smells kind of moldy, like I can't move it, man. I can't move it, you gotta come get it. And I swore to that, I was like, that's it. I was like, Ninja did it. He did it. I was like, he sent those guys, you know? And I called him up immediately and I was like, what the, you know, he was like, dude, I have no idea what you're talking about. And I was like, yo man, you know, and both of my roommates blamed me and you know, you hang out with the wrong people and somebody followed you and that. And your poor buddy who fucking is not your high school friend. Oh, and he, yeah, I mean, he had, I mean, that's I'm sure a story that he'll tell forever. But it ended up being the roommate and those guys that were there that one day. Of course. And that not done on you right away though? I mean, I feel like that would have been the first thing if I'm you, I'm thinking of cause I mean, I was so, you know, I was, I was drinking and partying all the time. Like I didn't even think, you know, I thought I was like, it's definitely my people. Definitely my people, you know? Cause I definitely hung with a crew. You know, that was not. Now, was this a turning point for you? Were you like, this is it? I gotta, I gotta stop. Or you're like, oh cool. I got out of that. Let's keep going. No. I mean, I still, it took me a number of years to like snap out of it. Yeah, it did. You know, I mean, I actually, so I moved to California for when I was 20 years old, I decided I was like, all right, I gotta get out of Dodge. Like I gotta figure out a better way because this is not working. And I should also mention that around that same time, this is another crazy story. Oh my gosh. But I was still working in that nightclub. I was working in that nightclub called Life from 1990, it was either 96, 97 to 99. And I was the youngest kid there. And everybody knew that. Everybody knew that I was like this, this young kid. And there was a woman that was the major D of the VIP room. And she was like smoking hot. And so I did everything in my power to like hook up with her. And ultimately her and I ended up hooking up. She was like 24, something like 24, 25 at the time, maybe 23. I don't know. She had a sugar daddy that would come to the club. Big time real estate guy. Big, rich, older, you know, real estate dude. But like kind of tough guy. But she was coming home with me like two, three nights with me. I can already see where this is going. Anyway, it didn't, like, and we did that for a little while and it didn't really work out well. I found out, and this is before heroin did become a part of my story at the very end, but it wasn't then. And I looked down on anybody that did heroin. Like I was just like heroin. I mean, that's for junkies. Anyway, I found out she was doing heroin. And when I found that out, I was like, isn't gonna fly. I'm not doing this. I have no interest in that. And when that happened, she told her sugar daddy that her and I had been sleeping together. Oh God. And it was summer of probably 98 or 99. And I was living in that apartment and I was working on the weekends at a club in the Hamptons, bartending. And I see the dude, Chris. And I was, I mean, I was a kid, I was a kid, but I was, you know, whatever. I see him and he locks eye contact with me and I just saw the look of death in his eyes. And you know who he is. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I know who he is. I mean, I was a drunk piece of shit at that time in my life. And he walks up to me and he puts his arm around me. And I'm telling you, like, I can't recall, I mean, there were very few moments in my life that I've ever been that scared. I thought I was gonna shit my pants. And he's wearing, he has a backpack on and he goes, you know, you're lucky I have kids because if I didn't, I'd kill you myself. He takes his backpack off and he pulls, pulls out it. This is like out of the movies kind of, kind of story. He pulls out a stack of cash and he shows it to me and he goes, this is the money I'm paying to have you killed. Wow. And I was like, literally it was like, I was terrified. I was terrified. And I didn't think to myself that like, how could this, you know, how can this guy tell me that he's gonna do this? You know what I mean? But that actually happened. And the craziest part of this story is her ex-boyfriend before Chris is a very, who's a psychopath, who's also unfortunately dead now is a very good friend of mine. Chris did not know that this guy was a very good friend. So Chris calls up this dude and says, hey, I'm gonna give you this money to beat this dude to within an inch of your life. No way. He calls me and he goes, we got to fake your death. Cause I want this money, but I'm not gonna kill you, bro. And so, and I swear God is my witness, man. We brought a couple of thugs to that apartment on nine street underneath the staircase, got, went to Abracadabra, this Halloween store, got all this face makeup, I swear to God, I still have the photos, man. Shut up. I still have the photos, but not fake the death. Like basically said, like beat the shit out of me. And, you know, and gave them to Chris. And, oh, shit, I said his name, whatever. But yeah, man, you know, the stories are just, I mean, I'm very, very slowly chipping away at a book. You have to. Cause the stories are just- You know what's interesting? Two times now, or three times now, you've talked about events where it seems like by the grace of God, you got out, unscathed, you got cops, let you off, you went in your apartment, had got pistol weapon, didn't get killed, and then this guy tried to get you beat almost to death. He could have accidentally gotten killed and it worked out where you faked it. You ever look back and go, wow, that's really crazy? Well, I will say that I come from, outside of my dad, there was love in my family. My grandmother, who's this woman here, who's my dad's mom, was probably the most impactful person in my life, because she was an absolutely wonderful spiritual being. And from as early, from like, when my kids, when my sister and I were like little, little kids, she was a practicing Buddhist. And she used to, you know, my sister and I used to run around her apartment in Queens singing num yum ho, rang gang kyo, and you know, she was just like this hardcore Buddhist and she meditated for four hours a day and she was just the most serene. Her profession was she was a crystal healer. She like had a crystal shop in Queens. My step-grandfather was an artist. He used to make fake plants. And so there was a part of that, like my life where I had this ability to feel taken care of somehow, some way. Now my relationship to the universe, God, whatever you wanna call it, is insanely strong. I'm not a religious guy, but I have a real connection with the universe and the energy that is not me. You know, it's not me. I know that. I think that's the most important piece, right? Me knowing that I'm not the one in charge and that's all I care about. I don't question it, I don't wonder. I mean, I do things every single day which I'm sure we'll get into in terms of like my habits, my habits or everything for me. But yes, you're right. I'm lucky to have gotten through a bunch of intense moments that at the time didn't seem so crazy because the crew of guys that I hung out with was like a Tuesday afternoon. Like kids were getting robbed all the time. All the time. You know, bad motherfuckers just doing bad things. And I, you know, one thing led to the next. I moved out of California. I lived in Venice for a year. Okay, what are you now, 2021? 20. 20, I moved out to Venice. I lived on a market street between Pacific and Speedway before Venice was like, you know, Abbot Kinney and everything on Abbot Kinney. But I lived out there for a year. I was really kind of chasing an acting career. I wanted to act. Cause I mean, and I think the only reason why I really wanted to act was because I was in the hospitality business and everybody in the hospitality business was actors. So I was like, oh yeah, this is obviously what I'm going to do. You should try Justin. You know? Yeah. You should fail musicians. And so I went out there and man, it was bad. It was bad, you know, I took me with me. You know, I crashed cars. I got into a crash. The first time I was ever on a motorcycle, crashed it. You know, it was just, it was not good. And I really made my friends' lives miserable out there cause they were childhood friends of mine. I moved in with them and, you know, I really, I actually moved out there to try to clean my life up though. And I remember going out. That was the intent. Yeah, that was the intent. I was going to say, because my next question was going to be like, how did you handle money? Because if you built a hustling business on the East Coast, that's not easy to, that's all about connections and relationships and all that stuff like that. You're going on the other side of the country. Yeah, I basically surrendered that business outside of connecting a couple of people with people and staying in the mix that way. Yeah. And have, you know, trusting people really at the end of the day to like do right by me after years of relationship developing and developing. But I went out there and I didn't do any of that out there. I just, I really was trying to clean it up and get my shit together. And so I went to, I went to Alcoholics Anonymous and the second meeting I went into, I locked eyes with this girl and that was it. You know, her and I connected and off to the races together. And it was- Was it your wife today? No. Oh, okay. Definitely not, definitely not, definitely not. But yeah, I mean, you know, her and I had a relationship and she, I mean, I was crazy as hell. I was crazy as hell. I don't even know what she was thinking. But yeah, I just, nothing good happened out there for me. And I went, it was Christmas 2021, Christmas 2020. And- How'd you get all the way, how did we get all the way to Christmas 2020? I mean, excuse me, Christmas 2000. I was like, whoa, bro, you just skipped like a decade and a half right there dude, go back up. Christmas 2000, Christmas 2000. And I came, I came home for Christmas and my father died on that trip home. So I came home, my dad was pretty sick. I mean, he had been in and out of the hospital. And at that point, you know, my relationship with him was definitely better. Because we were not living together or seeing each other much at all. He really had not a lot of respect for me because of the life that I was living and- Of course. But I will say, and it makes me emotional to think about it. I remember we did go out for Chinese food when I got home from that trip. And I remember sitting across the table from my father and we were talking about California and he, he said to me, we were talking about acting and how the acting thing's going. And he looked at me and he said, you know, you have a lot of emotional baggage that you can tap into in order to channel it for acting. And I was like, yeah, like what? And he closed his eyes and then he opened his eyes and he started bawling crying. And he said, you know, just tap into the shit that you and I went through. And I just like, when I think about that, it really, really, it was a, that was like a moment where I felt like my father was kind of forgiving me. Or even saying sorry to me. You're saying sorry, you know. Anyway, he, on Christmas night, it was not the Christmas night or Christmas Eve, he had a diabetic seizure and we rushed him to the hospital and he was in the hospital for a few days, which he had kind of been in and out of. And then one night, he had apparently a heart attack and went into a coma and stayed in a coma until the day he died, January 11th, February 11th, yeah, January 11th, 2001. So not that long after that moment. Right, yeah. So that was like, that was it. And then, you know, I also had an opportunity even though I was totally out to lunch for most of that time because I just like didn't know how to process what was going on, but I did go into the hospital alone and he was in a coma and I remember sitting on the floor making amends to my dad. And that night, I had a dream that he was dead and then he died a day later. Wow. Yeah. And you know, like today, God, do I wish, even though all the shit that we went through together, father and son, do I wish to God that I can have him back for a day? I mean, I'm even getting emotional. I didn't think that was going to happen. Thinking about it, but I would love to be able to have my dad to just, even though it was so hard just to show him that I've changed, you know, that I'm a different human, I am like, like, I mean, that me being a father today of these two guys, I could never imagine yelling at my kids like that, treating my kids like that. I could never, ever, ever imagine doing that. Like you have to be so angry and hate yourself so much to be able to project that kind of energy towards little kids. I just can't imagine it. Broken, man. Broken. He was broken. And I don't blame him for it, you know? I really don't. I mean, I've come to terms with that shit. But I would love to have him for one day to be able to say, hey, man, you know? And the crazy thing, man, is that I know he's, and this goes back to like my grandmother and the spiritual kind of connection that I believe I have, I believe that he's come to visit me in my dreams. Like I have had full-fledged conversations with my father in my dreams, talking about relevant stuff and waking up in the middle of the night crying and waking up my wife and being like, I just had a conversation with my dad. Wow. That's crazy. And the weirdest thing is, is I've only been, I've only had a reading one, actually twice, but a reading that really, you know, somebody said to me, hey, like you should try this out. You should call this person. And I called this woman and she was like, well, we can do this over the phone. And a reading is like a psychic, you know, like sort of tapping into, you know, the dead. Yeah. And so she started, and this woman, I mean, she knew everything. She knew everything, like impossible that she could have like Googled and Facebook. And I was like, she must have been all over my Facebook. She must have been tracking, you know, tracking and then I kind of like, you know, like, to succumb to the fact that this woman is actually speaking to the dead. And, you know, she brought things up about my father and I that I could never have imagined. And she said to me, your father visits you in your dreams and he also moves the pictures on the wall. And I was like, in our apartment in Brooklyn, when you walk into our apartment, there's a wall that's sort of diagonal right here. Like you walk in the front door, there's a diagonal wall. On this diagonal wall is a family wall, family pictures. Pictures are always crooked on this wall and we always, you know, straighten them. And I always just assumed that that was from the door closing and the pictures would shift. And this woman said, your dad moves the pictures on the wall and he visits you in your dreams. And I was just like, lost it. When she said that, I lost it. And my wife was like, what's the matter? And I was like, telling you it's like, you could believe what you want. But, you know, this woman knew everything about me. She said this, she said my grandmother, you know, orchestrated all these people. She said, this is my first dog. She said, you know, she said that a white dog is always with you, always, always with you. And I'm like a massive dog dude. And, you know, when Duke died, it was probably the hardest day of my life. Like crushed, losing my father, my dog Duke died. Yeah, I don't know, we kind of, we're kind of digressing, but you know. So anyway, I guess like getting to the good stuff. When did that start changing for you? Cause where you're at now is so different. I had, you know, I had, I had known that I had a problem with drugs and alcohol for a long time since I was a kid, since I was 15. I knew it. I knew that I had like a long love affair with escapism. And that's what, that was my way of doing it. And so I knew that it had to stop at some point. I knew it was either gonna take me out or I had to come to terms with it and figure out a way to change. I just didn't know how, but I had started trying. I'd started, you know, I'd gone to an AA meeting on my own, couldn't figure it out. You know, I was miserable. I really hated myself at that point in my life. And I had overdosed on heroin two weeks before I actually got sober. How old are you right now? 23. Okay, okay. And I was in this apartment with this girl and we were doing heroin for a few days. And I remember seeing like getting a glimpse of myself in the mirror and when you're high on drugs, like, you know, you can look at yourself in the mirror and your face will be pale. And that's normal, you know, when you're high on, you know, really high, pale face or like, all right, well, that's kind of like normal. I caught a glimpse of myself in a full-length mirror and my whole body top to bottom was white like these Air Force ones. And it scared the shit out of me. And I was like, I've never experienced that before. I never felt that way. I never experienced that. And I stood up and I was naked. I stood up and I was out, I fell. And I was coming in and out and I was like, please call the ambulance. She was afraid to call the ambulance. She got me into the bathtub. She turned on cold water. I was on the shower. I was like coming in and out of consciousness somehow, some way. Fourth time I came through it. And I remember lying in the bed shivering and saying myself, God, please help me. Like, I can't ever do this again. I just can't ever do this again. I had too much to offer. Like, how can I do this to myself? And three hours later, four hours later, I was walking east on 13th Street and I said, Mike, this has got to be the end, man. It has to be the end. And it wasn't. I found myself that night, you know, still, you know, up to the old shenanigans. And then I kind of had made a decision. I said, this is it. Like, I'm gonna die this way and I'm gonna do everything in my power to do it as quickly as possible. So I partied hard for two straight weeks and it was a Monday morning. I'd been up for a few days. Monday morning and I was with two of my friends. They had said, all right, man, we're done calling it a night. I said, I'm not, you know, because I had made a decision that I was gonna go as hard as I could. And I got, we were on the roof of my building. I got into my apartment and I like, again caught myself in the mirror, looked at the guy that was looking back at me, said I hated myself, said I didn't deserve to live, wanted to kill myself. For the first time really, I like really wanted to do it. It wasn't like, oh, I should kill myself. This is such a hard life. It was like, dude, you're just useless and worthless and you should just jump out the window. And I thought about all different ways that I could do it. I locked my bedroom door and I passed out and I woke up 16 hours later and I slept through. I was supposed to work that day. I slept through work. My boss fired me and my job was like everything. I was working in this Italian restaurant. It was like everything for me. I like, I loved, I had nothing else going on in my life. Really, I didn't. And I lived upstairs from the restaurant. I lived in the same building on 2nd Avenue between 5th and 6th Street. And I begged him for my job. I begged him for my job. It wasn't, I didn't think that I was gonna get, I like the thought of like getting sober wasn't, didn't like cross my mind that moment, but I begged him for my job. And he said, look, man, I love you kid. I was 23. I'd been working there for three years. He's like, I'm not gonna watch you kill yourself on my, on my, on my dime. I'm not gonna do it. So I will be willing to give you an opportunity to get sober, but you have to get sober. And you have to show up here at eight o'clock in the morning and clean the restaurant with the porters. And if you can stay sober for 30 days, I'll potentially give you your job back as a bartender, but you gotta get sober. Wow. And that's what I did. Wow, you saved your life, bro. Saved my life. Really he did. And, and then I went to, I went to a meeting, an AA meeting, and yeah, that was the beginning of the, that was the end of the beginning of the end of the dark days and the beginning of the new days for me. So is that at the same time when you find the Muay Thai guys? Yep. So I, so there was a woman who I worked with at that nightclub life who was, who was this woman, Karen, who became like an older sister to me. And she was dating this dude, Marcus. And I knew Marcus was sober. Karen wasn't, but Karen had taken me in many times throughout this crazy period of my life. You know, I would be down and out. She would like let me sleep in her, at her house. And, and so I called Karen and I said, Hey, I'm trying to change my life. Like I got to figure something out, you know? And she said, I'm calling Marcus right now. And so I knew that I can get, it was Tuesday morning. I knew that I can get to an AA meeting. I knew of an AA meeting on first and first. And I went there and then he met me after the meeting, Marcus. And he introduced me to a dude named Gavin. And those two guys, you know, they were like angels. How much older were they than you? They're both 10 years older than me, I think. Eight to 10 years older than me. Okay, so they're like 30, early 30s. Yeah, I looked up to them. You know, they were both dudes covered in tattoos and they took me to the Muay Thai gym and they were like, we're going to teach you how to change your life but we're going to teach you about commitment, discipline. We're going to teach you about integrity, humility. We're going to write you a plan. And I was like, why are these guys trying to help me? So, you know, like, what is like, what? Like, and I stopped trying to question it and I just rolled with it. And they wrote me a meal plan. They said, they wrote me a, like, what you're going to do is you're going to wake up as early as you can in the morning. You're going to do your best to go for a run and that could mean run around the block or that can mean run a mile. That could be run five miles but get outside and take a run. Have a bowl of oatmeal when you get back home. Go to this AA meeting at 10 o'clock. Come straight to the gym, Muay Thai gym, right after the AA meeting. You're going to train with us and we're going to kick your fucking ass and teach you how to be a man. You're going to have lunch after that which is ideally going to be chicken and broccoli. You're going to take a nap and you're going to go to work and do it all over again and that's your day. And that's what I did. That's what I did. I prayed every morning because they also told me that I had to pray and they didn't talk to me about, you know, meditation or all the things that I do now but, you know, they basically said, like, you need help. You haven't been able to ask for help for years and years and, you know, I'm not telling you you got to believe in God or anything like that but you got to start your day with humility, get on your fucking knees and ask the universe for help. And that made me think of my grandmother and I took to it like that. And I began to build my life. I changed, you know, I go deep into the world of fitness and Muay Thai and I got so passionate about Muay Thai and I, you know, I watched my body change in the course of probably within 90 days I was in the best shape I had ever been. I really gave, I really cared about what I put into my body for the first time ever. I became passionate about running and six, seven months after I made that change I met what is now, who is now my wife and she's never seen the guy that we just spent the last hour talking about. That's crazy. You know, and we've been together now over 17 years and she celebrated my first year anniversary, you know, sobriety anniversary. So I owe my life to, the restaurant. I owe my life to all the experiences that I had, right? Cause had I not gone through those things, the chances of me doing what I'm doing now are slim to none, right? Like it had it been just like a, you know, normal kid life, like I wouldn't have the balls. I wouldn't have the driver, the ambition to wanna go at everything with everything I've got. And I really do owe that to that experience. And then of course, Frank Prisanzano, shout out to Frank who said, I'm not gonna watch you die, dude. I'm not gonna let you die on my watch. And like the stars aligned for me once again, you know? And so I dove again, you know, like my life was really about Muay Thai, eating healthy, staying sober and my girlfriend. And she stuck by my side. I, you know, she, and I also never in a million years thought that I would find a woman like her, you know? She, first of all, she was 22, I was 24. She was like a top model traveling all over the fucking world. She was like three inches taller than me. I'm like, there's no way. Like she came into the restaurant one night and I was like, this woman is so beautiful. She was with a girlfriend and two dudes. But I was like, they're with two guys. And I'm just like, I'm not even gonna pay at any attention, but she's fucking beautiful. Anyway, an hour and a half later after they had sat down, the two dudes leave and they come and sit at the bar, the two girls. And I'm like, wait a second, there might be a chance here. Anyway, so they hung out with me all night and Donna, it was August. And the only reason why I know the exact date was because her birthday's on April 25th and it was April 23rd. And she was two days before her birthday and I was like, they hung out with me for like three, four hours. And I said, before they were leaving, I was like, you gotta let me take you out for dinner. You just gotta let me take you out for dinner. And I would love to do it on your birthday. I'm off in a couple of days. Let me take you out for dinner on your birthday. And she was like, I can't, I've got plans. And I was like, well, if you let me take you out tomorrow night at 10 o'clock, we can celebrate your birthday at midnight. And I'll still be able to take you out on your birthday. And she was like, all right, I'll let you do that. And we went out for dinner. I took her to my favorite restaurant, Blue Ribbon. And we had an amazing night. And then she ghosted me for two weeks because that guy was actually a dude that she was, it wasn't her boyfriend, but it was a dude that she was seeing. So she was, you know, she had to figure that out. But she texted me two weeks later and we've been tied at the hip ever since and she's the love of my life and yeah. What point did things start happening for you, right? So obviously you've turned your life around. You meet your wife. You're getting into your best shape of your life. When does the business stuff start happening? Because I know it was the meatball restaurant first of all the things. Okay, so tell me the origin story of that. You know, when I was 25, I had kind of come to the conclusion or the realization that I wanted to, I was gonna be in the restaurant business. This was gonna be where I hung my hat because I just loved, I really loved connecting with people. I do believe that that is my purpose and my superpower. You know, I mean, I've never met you guys before and I've just sat down with you all and we're like, you know, I feel like, I could, I genuinely believe that you could put me in any situation anywhere in the world at any time, at any hour of the day and I will find a way to connect. I'll find a way to connect. You know, it could be in the White House and it can be in the favela. That's like. Do you remember when you made that connection to that, a lot of that came from all the shit that you went through? I mean, I don't actually, when you guys asked me that earlier, you know, I really do believe that having to figure out how to make my friends' parents like me played a big role in it. Well, plus you worked in restaurants and in that environment since you were a kid, that's a lot of training. Yeah, and I also know that like, you know, I got paid in restaurants based on how much people liked me. Yeah, you worked on that skill. So I was 25, I said, this is it, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna take Frank out and I'm gonna tell him that I wanna do this restaurant and he's gonna be like, go get it, kid. I'm gonna support you. Here's, you know, here's the money to do it. And it was, it was, it was different. You know, he looked at me and he was basically like, I hear you, I love you. I just don't think you have it in you. And that was when, you know, I flipped the switch and the fire really was lit under my ass. And I said, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do it, not in spite of him, but I am going to do it because I really believe I do have what it takes. And as I was leaving, you know, he said, you know, Mikey, but if you wanna do it, you should, you should enroll in culinary school. So the next day, I checked out the culinary schools around town and there was the CIA, which was a four year commitment and $400,000 commitment, which I didn't have. And there was a French culinary institute, which was about, I think it was like 12 or 13 months commitment. And I could do it, I could get financial aid and I could do it during like three or four days a week from eight o'clock in the morning till four o'clock in the afternoon and still get to work. Still like 60, 80 grand, right? It's still pretty expensive. I think it was 45 grand at the time. And so I enrolled. I enrolled and I went to culinary school probably a few months later while I was there. I was going to culinary school during the day, going right to work at night. It was an intense time. But while I was there in culinary school, Cornell has a, has the number one hospitality program in the country, Cornell University. And so professors from Cornell, a couple of restaurant tours from Union Square Hospitality Group, which is a big hospitality group in New York, Danny Myers, you know, Shake Shack and all these, you know, these really, really iconic New York restaurants. Cornell, a couple of those restaurant tours and Fresh Culinary put together a truncated associates degree in restaurant management. So they introduced that about halfway through my culinary arts program and they offered a scholarship to it for one person. And I said, chances are, I'm definitely not going to get the scholarship but the scholarship was you have to submit a fully baked restaurant concept and send it in and see if it got picked. And sure enough, I came up with a concept called homemade and the concept was a burger restaurant that you can choose. It was a burger restaurant and you design your own burgers. But the real kicker was it was, there was artisanal cheeses that you can choose to pair with different proteins. So like you can have like these crazy cheeses, basically the most incredible cheese burger you've ever had in your life, right? And they were bringing in different cheeses and anyway, I came up with this idea, this concept. I'm in. And I won, I won the scholarship. No shit. Oh, that's so cool. And so I took that course. So it was like an 18, 20 month total thing and graduated and put my head down. I was 26 and a half, 27, wrote a business plan. My best friend from childhood, Dan Holtzman who really did lived a different life than I did. You know, he and I were, he always was like somehow my connection to some stability because he was not a drug addict. Even though he partied, he was not a drug addict. He was not a bad kid. Didn't get into the things. I mean, he'll tell a funny story. Oh my God. Anyway. No, enough, enough. No, you gotta divulge. Now you gotta tell the story right here so we know who he is. I got into, I had, I got in trouble for something in school and I was a junior. And I- This is high school. High school. Yeah. And they, I knew that I was getting into, I was, something bad was gonna happen. I don't remember exactly what I did but I was like, I called, you know, I told Dan to come over here and I basically handed him a soft ball of cocaine. Oh. And I said, dude, you gotta hold on to this thing for me, junior year in high school. He'll tell that story. Like hilarious. He can't do this. Yeah. But, so he, you know, he and I got our first job in a restaurant together. He was 13, I was 12. Kennel Cafe on the Upper East Side of New York City. I was delivering food on rollerblades and he was answering phones in the delivery department. And so that's kind of where we, how we met, you know, where we met our, you know, that's basically how we became friends. And he gravitated towards the back of the house in the kitchen. I gravitated towards the front of the house and we stayed working in restaurants on and off together, but like our whole lives, right? When I knew that I was gonna do, you know, I wanted to do this restaurant, I said, and he was living out here. He was living in San Francisco, cooking in all the fancy restaurants out here. And I said, dude, you gotta get back to New York, man. You gotta get back to New York and we're gonna open up this restaurant and we're fucking kill it. And he was like, man, you know, I'm like, I'm like, you know, he was at like the fifth floor the slanted door, one of these fancy restaurants out here. And he was like, I'm, he's like, I'm building my culinary career. This and that. I was like, dude, I'm telling you, man, you gotta get back to New York. We gotta open up this restaurant together. He's like, I'm in a relationship. And I called his older brother, who's also like my brother. And I was like, Eli, you gotta tell Dan again, you know, to get back here. You just gotta tell him, like, I'm, I know that this thing is gonna work. And he was like, just keep working on him, and then one day I called him, or he called me actually, and he was like, dude, I just broke up with my girl. I'm so bummed. And I was like, yeah, this is my chance. I was like, dude, I'm so sorry. Why don't you come back to New York? We'll hang, we'll go out, you know, like take, take a few weeks, we'll hang. Anyway, I ended up getting him to move back to New York and we started putting the pen to paper and we wrote a business plan and we came up with this idea at this restaurant that I worked at, it had now been seven and a half years that I was working there for Frank. There was a dish on the menu called the rigatoni ragu. And it, this sounds bold. The restaurant, Frank restaurant is arguably one of the best Italian restaurants in New York. Definitely at the time that I was working there was definitely had the best Italian wine list in New York. Tiny little mom and pop restaurant. Just fucking insane though. Just unbelievably packed and just pot, like, you know you'd walk in there and there'd be like, at that time, you know, there would be like Kate Moss and like Sean Penn was just, you know, one of these spots like cool downtown little spots. And so rigatoni ragu, I was the king of selling a $13 bowl of rigatoni ragu pasta and a $1300 bottle of like Romano del Forno the same person, you know, I was like, that was my that was every night I was like, I'm gonna do a rigatoni with a fucking del Forno and but the pasta was so good. The dish was so good. And for family meal for me, two to three nights a week I would say, hey, let me get the rigatoni ragu sans the rigatoni. Just give me the meatballs, the sausage, the tomato sauce side of broccoli, side of spinach, side of beef. And like that was my meal, you know? And people would ask me like, what do you, what is that? Like I'm just having, you know, meatballs and tomato sauce with a bunch of veggies. And one day I was like, man, this is a restaurant concept. Like I can make tons of different kinds of meatballs and the sides are endless, you know, endless. Everybody loves meatballs. And so Dan and I couldn't figure out what we wanted to do restaurant wise. We were walking north on second Avenue and I just said, man, what about meatballs? What about meatballs? And he was like, hmm, meatballs. And I'm talking to this guy who was at La Bernardin, the number one restaurant in the world for like four years. You know, all these fancy restaurants here in San Francisco, I'm like, let's open up a fucking meatball window. Anyway, he perked up and we started cooking meatballs. And we started cooking meatballs in my apartment in Brooklyn. We invited all of our friends over on Sunday nights. We started writing the business plan. And that's it. We locked in, we locked in on this. People were like, this is really cool. And then I put the business plan in front of every regular at Frank restaurant that had watched me grow from a kid to semi-man. And 14 of those guys wrote me a check. And, oh wow. Really? Test right there. There's that relationship stuff you were talking about. Nope. 14 of those guys wrote me a check and I put my life savings into it, which was not a lot at the time. And Dan put his life savings into it. And we took this little restaurant, 39 seats on Stanton Street between Orchard and Allen, called it the Meatball Shop, did meatballs, sides, and custom ice cream sandwiches for dessert. And I mean, dude. Crushed. Right out, right away. So we hired a publicist that was advised. I had no idea what a publicist was. I'm, this is like all new to me. This whole business thing is all kind of new to me in the restaurant world. But anyway, we were advised to hire a publicist. This, and at that time, restaurant PR was very significant. Like the restaurant industry in New York City at the time was like changing. It was, this is the beginning of social media. You know what I mean? People were taking pictures of all their fucking food. People were yelping like crazy. And it was really starting to, like it wasn't about like what is your, what's the best restaurant in New York? It was more, what's the best pizza in New York? What's the best sushi in New York? What's your favorite burger in New York? More specific. Yeah, like what's the ramen spot? Anyway, so this, the biggest publicist in New York at that time was, there was a few of them, but one of them was Guy Phil Balz and he had a company called Balz & Co. And so somebody introduced us to him and Daniel and I did not hire a contractor to build out the meatball shop. He and I did it like haphazardly together. I had never, I'm a New York City kid, spent most of my life like running the streets. I was not a power tools guy. Like I had no idea. He'd be like, and his father was a construction worker. So he handed me a grinder and I'm like, what do you want me to do with this? And so I was his bitch for like three months because he knew what he was doing kinda. But we turned this old noodle restaurant called Slurp into the meatball shop in two and a half months. No contractor, like I spent like no money. It was the middle of the winter. Anyway, we put, you know, we papered the windows and this guy walks in about a month into Dan and I doing the work. And I'm like on my knees, sand in the floor. He, you know, the craziest thing too is like, I mean, I called a friend who was in construction. I said, hey, you know, I need a bunch of wood. I'm trying to build tables for a restaurant. He was like, wow, that's so interesting. You know, we're demoing an old tenement on Third Street right off of the Bowery. Go get a truck. There's, you know, three inch floorboards or three inch rafters that were just thrown out into the dumpster. So show up and we'll give you all these things. So I'm talking about like these beautiful heart pine, three inch thick, 20 foot long boards that we just, like we could take as much as we want. And so we filled up this truck. My uncle is a cabin trist in Queens. We filled up the truck, took it out to my uncle's spot and he made the bar he made and he made the tables for the first three meatball shops out of the same wood, but he made the bar. I mean, it was crazy cool story. So cool. And actually the New York Post did a full piece on that wood story. And so, you know, we did that. Like it was just so, you know, bootstrap to the max, the max, the max. Like we didn't want to turn on the heat because we didn't want to pay the bills. So we were working in a freezing cold fucking room, concrete floors. Like it was just brutal. Anyway. So Publis just walks in. He sees us busting our ass. He meets us and he's like, you two are like, this is, this is like out of a movie. You know, he's like, you two are best friends. You're doing this like, you know, you guys are building the place. Meatballs, nobody's done a meatball place. Who knows if it's gonna work, but I thought like you guys, he gave us a shot. And he gave us a shot for like a steep discount. Anyway, the day that we opened the restaurant February 11th, 2010, February 9th, 2010, sorry. Dan Dan is the most pessimistic, skeptical dude you've ever met in your life. This guy is like, you know, he is just like, it is never gonna work. And that's why we complimented each other in the beginning because I am the most optimistic, positive. Like I could be looking at Mount Everest and I'm in my underwear and I'm like, I got this. I got this. I'll figure it out. You know. Anyway, we're staying at the back of the restaurant and I'm like, dude, we are going to crush. And the paper was on the walls. Paper was on the windows. We did not look outside. We were like running around the restaurant trying to get this place ready. And he was like, dude, there's nobody out there. I guarantee. Five o'clock, publicist said, you do not take that paper off those walls. You do not want anybody getting into the restaurant or taking pictures of the restaurant and leaking this to the press before we have our PR plan. Sure enough, five o'clock comes, ripped the papers off the walls. And there was a line of people outside of this restaurant in front of the restaurant, down to Orchard Street, halfway up Orchard Street. There was over 200 people online. Oh, wow, wow. And so I looked at Dan and I was like, holy shit. I walked all the way to the end of the line. I told all the people to walk out in front of the restaurant and we took a picture of all these people waiting on that. Oh, so cool. Did they have any idea what the concept was? This was all. They did because there was like, you know, the PR was like, so the way the PR works is you give an exclusive to the New York Times. You try to get the New York Times to, and there's a woman named Florence Fabricant who covers all like the new spots. And she's like, she'll write a blurb, you know? New York Times isn't gonna write a big piece on a restaurant that's never opened before, but if Florence Fabricant likes the idea, she'll give you a blurb on a Wednesday, you know? And so you give them the thing and then you tell them that it's exclusive, but then you kind of tell every other publication that they got the exclusive to, and you line it up. You line it up. So you're like, New York Times is gonna get the exclusive and then you lock the days in and once they lock in the piece, they're not pulling it. And they know that this shit goes down. I'm not like spilling the beans here, you know? Like it's like a stretch. Part of the hustle. Part of the hustle. So we got Florence Fabricant to write about it. We got New York Mac, like all these people just, and every day a new piece came out, right? Leading into it. And people were fired up, but they didn't want anybody into the restaurant to see what it looked like inside because New York Times wanted to like reveal, you know, this thing, or New York Magazine wanted to reveal the images of the photo of the shots. And so that line never ended. We paid our investors back in six months. Wow. We paid people's on Jay Leno, Jimmy Fallon, Chelsea Handler, Good Morning America, The Today Show. Within a year, it was just like wildfire. Wildfire, it was insane. And we have raised more money, you know, we opened up. Let me go back a little, because I do want to know, I'm curious, because I know it's not cheap to start out. How much initial capital did it take? We opened up the first restaurant for just under 400 grand. So it was like 390 grand. But, you know, the crazy thing is is you plan for the worst in the restaurant biz, you know, and most restaurants go out of business, not because the idea is not great or the food isn't awesome or the staff isn't great. It's because they don't have enough money in the bank to hold on, to hold on till the battle of attrition starts to turn capital positive under capitalization. I mean, look, there's definitely people that go into the restaurant business, you know, people that are rich, they're like, oh man, I'm gonna open a restaurant. You know what I mean? Because there's so many moving parts and the margins are so slim, but you have to be capitalized. You have to have operating cash in the bank because there's gonna be months where you lose money. It's just the nature of the beast, you know? And if you lose money and you've got no money in the bank and you can't make payroll, everybody quits and you're done. You're done. So, you know, we were lucky that the restaurant took off like crazy because I don't remember how much we had. I think we had 40 or 50 grand left over in the bank and you know, you typically wanna have six months worth of business operations in the bank when you open up a restaurant or at all times really. And so yeah, so it was a wild time and unbelievable and that's what sort of gave me the confidence to start building a media career for myself too, because I felt really good like in the environment and... So when you took on more capital, how much more capital did you take on and was the plan, let's go open up more of these? Is that what you were thinking? Yeah, so we actually, we took on 3.5 million bucks. Oh wow, so serious capital now. Serious cash, took on 3.5 million bucks after we paid back our initial investors and we began and basically they had committed to 3.5 million and we would be able to draw it down as needed when we were ready to open a restaurant. And it was one of the initial investors that did that. And so we, you know, Daniel and I just started like figuring out where we were gonna open up these restaurants and the second restaurant, I knew that I wanted to be in Williamsburg. I knew I was living in Williamsburg at the time. I really wanted to open up a restaurant in Williamsburg. There wasn't a lot in Williamsburg at that point. I knew that we would crush it there. And simultaneously we found a West Village opportunity that, you know, it's kind of like in New York, when you're a New York City restaurant person, the West Village is just like, it's kind of like an iconic place to have a restaurant, like some of the best restaurants in New York are in the West Village. So when we found this little place in the West Village, small little spot, we decided to sign two leases pretty much at the same time. And you know, like there was a lot of unbelievable learnings from that first year, year and a half. But it was also really challenging for Dan and I. Because like I said, you know, I'm a super optimistic dude and he is a super skeptical guy and one of the smartest guys I know. But I'm definitely the creative visionary out of the two of us. And so we just were button heads, man. Even though the business was, we could not have asked for better business. We could not have asked for a better outcome. It was, you know, it was challenging for us to work together. And, but we stuck with it until we couldn't stick with it anymore. Until it got to a point where I was like, yo, I am miserable. I can't, I don't feel like I'm living, you know, I'm working 16, 18 hours a day, seven days a week, brutal, like I've got to love this shit. And that's when I learned that I was not motivated by money. Money did not motivate me. Even though I love it, it's awesome to have. My happiness is far more important than cash in the bank and capital. And I think that was a real turning point for me in my life because I wanted to bow out of meatball shop. I wanted to, I didn't want to deal with this, not the stress of the business, because I was actually, I say today, you know, put me in any negative situation and like negative situation, chaos, challenge, difficulty, I thrive. Put me in a room with a bunch of negative people and it's my kryptonite. I cannot function. I just cannot function. I do not do well with negative people. People that'll look at something and say, there's no way. I did not believe in there's no way. I still don't believe in that there's no way. I have been able to figure shit out my whole life. And when you say no way to me, the second that I spend thinking of impossible no way is a second I'm not spending thinking about possible every fucking possible way. And I realized that then and I said, you know what, I'm not doing this. You guys want to scale the business in a different way than I want to scale the business. Dan wanted to open up in Huntington, Long Island, Connecticut, Westchester, Jersey. I was like, I've got no interest in Huntington, Long Island, Westchester, Connecticut. Like I do not see myself immersing into those communities. I'm a New York City guy. I want to open up in Los Angeles, Chicago, South Florida, Austin, Texas. Like I could do that. Totally see myself being and also the media was so strong in our business. The PR was so strong. I was like, we need to go make a splash. Like you don't go from New York City to Huntington, Long Island and people are like, yeah. They're like, oh man, that's where you go to die. You got to go with it. You got to hit the billboards. Like that's what's got to happen. I was like, Dan, if we open up in LA, it'll be like New York all over again. You know? So he's trying to be more practical. You got a grander vision of where you guys could go. He is a very, again, like, Meatball Shop would not be successful without him, for sure, because he is very smart. Yeah, yeah. And he basically held, you know, held me. Rains you in. Yeah, it rains me in. Because I'm just down to take a risk and jump off first. So I said to the guys, look, I don't want to do this anymore. Like Dan and I are not, we're not seeing eye to eye. We're not getting along and I'm miserable. And I didn't change my life to be miserable. I would rather take a risk on selling you guys some of my equity and going out and trying to create another restaurant concept, because I know I have the confidence that I can do that. Then try to trudge the mud here and be miserable. Even though the business is crushing. So that's what we did. They bought out a significant piece of my equity. I stayed on as a board advisor. What was your equity at the time? Were you 50-50, or did you have a percentage? Because you had investors and stuff, what did you split the price? Yeah, so Dan and I each owned 33% of the company. Each and the investors owned 33% pretty much. Okay, but you still kept tens of you. They really only bought out 20-something percent of you? Yeah, they basically bought 24, 23, 24%. So it took me just under 10% of the company. How big of a payday was that for you? It was pretty big. I mean, for me, it was definitely seven figures. Yeah. And I was 32, so I was like, this is it. Like, A, that day came and I was like, I felt good for the first time in a little bit because even though I knew that the company was, I gave them a great deal on my equity and I knew that the company was gonna be worth probably way more over time, I just knew that I need to be happy. So anybody that's listening, I promise you, money does not buy happiness. I know that for sure, for sure. What direction did you go after that? So I started developing my next restaurant concept, which is called Seymours, which I opened. Was the seafood one? Seafood concept, sustainable seafood. I'm a lifelong fisherman. I love fishing, I love sustainability. I really wanted to open up a seafood spot that showcased local sustainable fish because I grew up fishing and all the fish that I grew up catching, you never see on menus in New York City. It's tuna, halibut, cod, you know, shrimp, crab legs, like that's what lobster, that's what people think of seafood, right? There's a plethora of underutilized species of fish that will actually save the ocean by us eating it, not deplete the ocean by us eating it. What a great concept. And so I created this really fun restaurant concept. I opened it without partners in 2015 and exact same thing happened, crushed it, crushed it. Seymour, give me an idea too. So now you take, you get paid in seven figures, so which by the way in the restaurant business is actually a huge pal, especially considering you're only getting 20%. That's a big fucking deal. Restaurants aren't typically like huge money, money makers. Yeah, but also just like for me, I think when you think about it, I was smoking crack six years before this, you know what I mean? Yeah, this was crazy. It's crazy that I was able to really transition my life. Yeah, that is unbelievable. So now you're stacked up at a point in your life where you now for sure know that money isn't all you want at all, like there's other things. You take that parlay, some of that into this and you pay it yourself. So you're taking a half million of that money, a big chunk of money and going all in on the seafood. Yeah, I took a big chunk of my cash and then I raised some more. So I raised some more money. I didn't do the whole thing on my own, but I did it alone without partners. I needed a break from partners. I didn't know if I was gonna scale this thing. I didn't know what I was gonna do with it, but I knew that I needed to see if I had what it took to do it again. And I loved every minute of it. My wife was nervous because of course I'm taking another risk. And I should also just say the whole way through here, like I met Donna when I was 24 in 2003. And excuse me, I was 24 in 2004. And she like supported every second of my life. The whole way through. She knew I was tender when I was getting sober. I was very clear with her. Look, my life, when I met her was like, I was dedicated to Muay Thai and I was dedicated to being a better version of myself. And I needed to go to AA and I needed to do all these things in my sobriety. And like if you can manage that and if you can deal with that and if you know that I'm not gonna be going out partying or whatever, she was like, I am with you 100%. Good woman will see potential in a man. They do that really well, don't they? Well, she, I mean. She saw it. She saw it and she is the strongest. She's just an unbelievable person. I mean, really my wife is very special person. She's Danish, she's raised on, she will hate if I say this, but I'm gonna say it because it's true. She was raised on a farm, all women. There was very few men in her life. Her father left, the parents got divorced. It was Donna, her mom, her sister, her younger brother, her aunt and her grandmother all on one dirt road. Like 35 minutes outside of Copenhagen. And I love my European, I love my Danish family. I love them. They're, I like truly, I really love them. Like I have the best in-laws, both her mom and her dad. I love them. So she was raised in this strong household where she just, she really is self-sufficient. She did not need me to carry her any which way, shape, or form, she carried me. I mean, she was the breadwinner for the first many years of our relationship through her modeling work. But anyway, so I opened up this restaurant and a mentor of mine, this guy who I'd been using as a sound board, who's really smart dude, was running La Penca to the end at the time. He came to the opening night of the restaurant. I had told him about the concept like six or seven months ago. It was like six or seven months before. It was basically on the back of a napkin. I made this shit happen quick. I said, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do this thing called the real deal where you get to choose your fish. You choose the sauce and they choose the sides and then we're gonna do fish tacos and we're gonna do fish sandwiches and we're gonna do all these like cool fun like sort of New England style fish things. But I'm gonna only use sustainable fish. I'm only gonna use fish that nobody fucking knows what they are because they don't have them, that there's no marketing behind them. The fish industry, the seafood industry is a marketing industry. It's crazy, but it is. Tuna and salmon are like Nike and Apple. And it's just wild. It's wild how that happened. Tuna was garbage fish up until like the 60s. But anyway, so I designed this business, designed the restaurant, built the restaurant and Jay came to opening night and he wrote me an email the next day. He was like, dude, you came to my office. You showed me the back of a napkin of this idea. You literally built the exact same thing you showed to me. I've never seen anybody do that before. The concept is gonna resonate. I wanna leave my job and I really wanna work with you to scale this company. Now mind you, this guy is like 15 years older than me. He's running like a thousand restaurants nationally. And I could never be his boss. Never, I don't have the audacity. You know what I mean? Like I wanted to learn from him the whole way, the whole time. And I said, Jay, dude, I love you man. I'm so grateful for all the stuff all the wisdom that you've shared with me, I can't take on a partner right now. I just came out of a pretty tougher situation, like can I take on a partner? And he was pretty relentless. He did not want a no for me. So every couple of months he would just say, dude, I'm telling you, because it was New York Magazine, number one restaurant in New York for over six months. The place was just on fire. And he's like, dude, I can raise $6 million. Come to the table with a lot of money. And so I said, look man, I can't be your boss. I would consider doing this if you came in as a CEO, I take the presidency, we raise money, we scale the business to 30 million in revenue. And then you buy me, you buy the majority of my equity so that I can go create another business. And we'll do that. And that's exactly what we did. Oh, you agreed? Yep. Does that play out? Yep, 100%. No shit. To the T. Wow, that's great. Yes. And so I sold a very similar meatball shop for a very similar amount of money in 2019, November, 2019. Wow, very nice, very nice timing. Away with that one. Yeah, I felt real guilty about that, but... How did he survive during COVID? I mean, you too, I guess you still... It was a brutal time, but there was only one casualty, actually two casualty, one casualty through COVID for Seymours. And then as things started to clear up a little bit, and it was really interesting the dynamic of landlords in New York City. Like at first they were like, hell no, no deals. Nobody's getting deals. This is gonna blow over. I'm not locking myself into this long-term deal with percentage of rent or percentage of sales. Like no fucking way. Like this is a flash in the pan. In a few months, this is all gonna go away. No landlords were negotiating. And when it started getting worse and worse and worse, and New York City shut down, like businesses were not able to conduct, landlords started to have to think about what they were gonna do because they got mortgages and they got to pay bills too. If they're not gonna deal, then everybody's out because there was no, you could not get evicted. And all the good guy clauses and all the clauses that would essentially tie you to a deal were released. So you basically could just hand the keys back to the landlord as long as you were pre-COVID up to a current with your rent, you can hand the keys back and call it. And so landlords started to deal. And a lot of those restaurants, including the Meatball Shop, although the Meatball Shop took more casualties, the Meatball Shop took the original Perry Street and Chelsea shut. Landlords didn't want to deal and the restaurants weren't making enough cash to survive it. So Seymour's closed one and that was in like a market. It wasn't really a big one. And then as things started to clear up, like towards the end of like seven, eight months ago, when things started to feel like they were getting better in New York, this landlord of the original Seymour's said, I want all the money from the Rears. I want all of it. And we haven't writing like, no, this is what we're gonna do going forward. And he was like, yeah, well, I want it all. And he wouldn't do a deal. And we didn't want to spend the money in court trying to fight him. So we just closed the restaurant. But Seymour's is crushing, kicking ass. Meatball Shop is doing better now than it had ever. And then it was doing pre-pandemic with six restaurants, they're doing it with three, which is awesome. And so that's what we did. In 2019, I sold equity and I started putting the pieces together for Creatures of Habit, which is the business that I'm now the CEO of and running. So what's that all about? So, I mean, as I, you know, I didn't spend too much time talking about like my life and fitness and my life and wellness, but you know, realistically, how I managed to really sink my teeth into a better life than what I was living was not only through sobriety and the people that helped along the way, but really, really diving into fitness and nutrition. Those are the two things that I became obsessed with. I wanted to see how far I could go. And so, you know, I did, like I said, I trained Muay Thai for 10, 12 years, something like that, competed and smokers and my gym put on. And then I started running marathons and I became passionate about endurance training. And I just, you know, my whole entire, my diet was basically this meal plan that these guys wrote for me the whole way. I just like, I didn't change it. You know, I ate oatmeal with a bunch of stuff that I would add to it in the morning. I ate chicken and broccoli and, you know, some more veggies for lunch. And I pretty much ate chicken salmon or some sort of lean protein with veggies and some sort of starchy veggie for dinner. And I just stuck to this plan. And I started meditating and I started this morning routine that really set me up for success throughout the day. And I wanted to open up a wellness restaurant in New York that had a vibe. There was no restaurants in New York City that were healthy that didn't look, smell, and feel healthy. You know, like, like, yeah, exactly. That's it, right? If you were gonna go, I mean, there was like, there's like sweet greens, which is a lunch spot. But like, if you wanna go on a date and you're a healthy person and you don't wanna go to one of these awesome restaurants that you know you're gonna have a delicious meal in, but you also know that it's a 7,000 calorie meal because the only way they make that steak taste the way it tastes is because it is sitting in a bucket of butter. You know what I mean? I remember the first time I learned that when I saw it back behind the kitchen and saw them like literally taking like a half a cube of butter and setting it on. I was like, oh, damn, that's why my steak tastes like that. Right, yeah, so like, you know, you order the steak and you're like, okay, this is like, for me, like I eat steak regularly, you know, I eat a lot of meat. But when you're working with, you know, you don't need to have butter on your steak. You don't need to add like four tablespoons of olive oil to a piece of halibut. You just don't, you don't need to like baste it and all, like it just says it's not necessary. Anyway, I wanted to change that. I want it because now that sweet greens was around, like it was very, very clear that people were lining up by the thousands to eat a healthy lunch, except there was nowhere for them to go that they wanted to hang out in for dinner. So they would either go to like one of these spots where they're gonna have a delicious meal in a cool environment that just essentially annihilates what they had for lunch. I wanted to create that place. I wanted to create that spot. But I didn't want to stamp out restaurant after restaurant. I wanted to use this restaurant as a marketing hub for a lot of consumer packaged goods because I said, you know, in order to enjoy the food at a restaurant, it's a regional thing. You gotta be in New York. You just gotta be in New York. You gotta be either living in New York or you gotta visit New York in order to experience it. How can I touch more people? And how can I tell my story of wellness saved my life? Like how can I do it? What can I do? And so I said, I'm gonna do the CPG thing. I'm gonna use the restaurant, create this awesome spot where people can come, have delicious food. We'll call out keto paleo and plant-based menu items. You know, it'll be like everything that you want except just not using all the shit that restaurants tend to use to make it taste 17,000 times better than it needs to taste because steak with salt and a little lime or lemon, it's fucking delicious, dude. It's delicious. Like you use the right ingredients, you know, like roasted sweet potatoes. Dude, you don't need to hit them with maple syrup and walnuts. Like, they're fucking sweet potatoes, man. It's like candy, come on. So I said, I'm gonna create this awesome spot. And I found the restaurant, lined up investors and it was February, 2020. And I was about to sign the deal in March of this awesome restaurant in Williamsburg. One level structure, eight skylights, brick walls, just beautiful 5,000 square foot spot. You know, we were gonna, the front was gonna have a little retail area. We were gonna incubate products in the restaurant and just have this super cool like spot in the front where people can come and, you know, grab sauces, grab things that we were making in the restaurant and take them home. And then whatever people were walking away with, I was gonna put money behind in CPG. Smart, that's real smart. And you know. That's right before the shit hit the fan. Yeah. So that didn't happen. So that didn't happen. So March 2020 comes as grumblings about this thing and I'm like, I call my investors and I'm like, God, this is not sounding so good. I was putting a quarter million bucks of my money into it. And I said, guys, look, you know, we gotta pause this. I'm certainly not taking your money and I'm definitely not putting my money into a brick and mortar business right now. And at this point, I, you know, I was a business guy. You know, I had built, scaled and exited two successful businesses and people believed me. They had faith in me, they believed me. And anyway, I watched my career as I knew it crash and burn. Right? I watched and everybody thought everybody was done. Yeah. Every restaurant tour after two months of this stuff where the cities were, the streets were desolate and landlords didn't wanna make any deals. Everybody was like, it's over, this is it. It's never gonna be the same, it's over. So I packed up our shit. My wife and I and our two kids and we moved to our house upstate for, you know, temporarily or like, all right, let's, you know, just pack a few bags, we'll go upstate. We'll hang out in the woods over the summer and, you know, we'll see what happens and we won't have to be locked into our apartment in the city, we'll be outside and that bag just got bigger and bigger and bigger until we emptied out the apartment. I rented it out on Airbnb for a year and sold it last summer. And we moved upstate. I was on a run. I literally have, I mean, running is one of my like, absolute, people ask like, where do you find inspiration? What do you do for inspiration? And sometimes I wonder what that question is actually, like what is the premise of that question? Like, what does that mean? Like, do people actually, you know, like what do people do for inspiration? Do they watch something? Do they read something? Do they go somewhere? What do they do? I found out now that my inspiration comes from running seven to 10 miles with no music, no headphones, just running with intention of trying to figure some shit out. Yeah, you keep the body busy and the mind is open to be free. And so I came up with Meatball Shop like that. I came up with Seymours like that, all of the details and all those things that really developed on these runs. And so I was on a run, upstate, it was beautiful summertime and it came to me. I said, I was gonna draw a line through the restaurant, of course. What can I do in CPG direct to consumer that feels authentic to me? And the first thing that popped into my mind was the first meal that saved my life, oatmeal. I've been eating it every day since I got sober, pretty much. I've added so many things to it over the years that it's become way more than just oatmeal. I'm not gonna go head to head with Quaker, you know? But I can create a meal that is incredibly optimized, functional, convenient, easy to ship, dry product, long shelf life, sticky category, breakfast, you know? It just all kind of came to me on that run. I am going to figure out a way to package my oatmeal and my morning supplements into a pouch, make it taste real fucking good. And that's how I'm gonna launch Creatures of Habit because that is my story. And not only will I, if I'm able to do this, first of all, it would be something that I would purchase every day, or I would have it every day because I do have it every day. At that time, I was 40, best shape in my life. I was competing in men's physique bodybuilding. I like nutrition is everything in that world. Oh yeah, it's obsessive. It's obsessive. And I was actually gonna bring this up because I know you guys talk a lot about, when on the podcast, people ask lots of questions. And specifically when it comes to competition, you guys are like, look, it's a very, very slippery slope, right? Like if you're an obsessive person and you have any issue with food, any food insecurity, any, if you've ever had a food addiction, eating disorder, whatever, trying to compete in bodybuilding of any kind is dangerous, right? Because you have to be so dialed in. And it no matter how you look at it, you develop some level of eating disorder, right? Because especially after you compete, after being in the best shape ever, you are shredded to pieces, like people are like, I wanna get shredded. I'm like, you do not wanna get shredded. Like there's a difference between being lean and in great shape and shredded, right? Shredded is like, it's not fun getting there. Yeah, but I really at that point in my life, every single gram mattered to me. I knew exactly what I was eating, when I was eating it, how I was eating it. And I said, this is what I fuel my system with every single day, it's the first meal of my day. How can I figure this out? I'd never done anything like this before. I was like, what do I do? So I came home from that run, I said to Donna, babe, I'm going to the oatmeal business. And she was like, what? And I was like, and I told the story. And she was like, you know, honey, I don't know what to say to you outside of like, you're crazy. And I believe you. And so I put 200,000 bucks into a bank account. I called all the people that I developed relationships with over the years, who I knew had some connection to CPG, to the wellness industry. I said, help, I need help, you know? And I think all those years of praying every morning and asking the universe for help and starting with humility and doing that has just given me the opportunity and the confidence to just have zero qualms about asking for help. When I think about, if I could say anything to my younger self, now it would be put your fucking hands down and ask for help. Ask for as much help as you can ask for. Be shameless about asking for help. You empower people when you ask them for help. Isn't that funny? You empower people when you ask them for help, you know? Ask for as much help as you can because I was so afraid of asking for help. I did not want to ask for help ever. I wanted to do it all alone. I wanted to figure out how to get it done. And so because I started those guys put that lesson in my path early on, you know, get on your knees and ask for help, just gave me this confidence to ask for help along my journey as an entrepreneur. And so I started Ask for Help and I got connected with these guys out in LA, this natural formula lab. And I said, look, man, here's what I want to do. I want to mix gluten-free oats, 30 grams of plant-based protein, pink Himalayan salt, chia seeds, flax seeds, pumpkin seeds, omega-3 fatty acids, probiotic, digestive enzymes, and vitamin D3 into a pouch. And make it taste good. Yeah, and make it taste good. Which by the way, I'm blown away by that because I used to make a very similar oatmeal and not quite that all that stuff. It was really tough to make it taste well. Sounds like alchemy to me. Well, the truth is, is that, so my oatmeal for years was basically oats, plant-based protein, chia seed, flax seed, pumpkin seed, and pink Himalayan salt. And then on the side, my four supplements every day was probiotic, digestive enzymes, vitamin D3, and my omegas. And that was my morning ritual, post-workout, pretty much is how I did that every day. And so I said, you know, if I can get all those things together, if I can get them all together, how, like, is it possible? And I said it to this guy at OBI, and he said, he kind of chuckled. And I said, well, you know, I'm gonna do it. So either you're gonna do it, you're gonna be the guy to help me do it, or I'm gonna find somebody else, like, you know. And he said, I wanna help you do it. And we started the journey, man. So you sent us a bunch of this before coming in. What's the name, pro-atagonist, pro-atagonist? So it's called the Protagonist. Protagonist. And I came up with that name on that run to, you know, protein and oats. The brand is called Creatures of Habit. But I spent a year working on it, man. Yeah, well, I mean, I'll be honest. So I have no qualms telling somebody when the products suck, but yours is great, it really is. I looked at the box, so I got the box, one of my guys brought it to me and I rolled my eyes because people give a shit all the time. So all right, let me look at this. I looked at the ingredients and says, oh, this is good, this looks like good stuff. And we tried it, it's good stuff. I think you might have another success on your hands. Well, I hope so, man. Today is actually the one year anniversary as I'm sitting with you guys telling my life story. It's been one year today, August 26, 2021 is when I launched it in the marketplace. And we're building a community, man. You know, Mike, I wanna ask you this because I've seen, I've been in the fitness and health space for over two decades and I've seen it transform people, not just physically, that's obvious, but kind of along the lines of what you experienced with it. What is it about fitness and health that transformed you? Was it the discipline or was it just that it was a sneaky way of going into personal growth without realizing it? No, man, I know exactly what it was. We have very little control over the things that happen on a day-to-day basis. What we put into our body and how we move our body, we actually have complete control over. And when you do that in a positive way, it is a win. Like a big win. For centuries, those were some of the biggest wins ever. Oh yeah, that's true. What you eat and how you get through your day, those were the biggest wins. Today, there's all sorts of other wins, money and cars and whatever, but it's ingrained in us to win, to wanna win with nutrition and movement. Nobody ever talks about that, right? Like when we were hunting and gathering, there was only one way to do it. You had to get out in the woods and hunt and the win was what you killed, right? And then what you ate, that was a huge win. And so we are wired to wanna win that way. And for me, when I was down and out and not winning at all, the first thing that was introduced to me was the ability to win nutritionally and through movement. And I believe that that's what I locked into, man. That's how I changed my life. Because now I know that I can win every single day. I have the power to win every day. And I know that sounds a little woo woo, but I believe it with every cell in my body that if you can control the controllables, it'll play out in every other area of your life. Discipline from fitness and the challenge me, like I love the challenge. I love, I just made a huge transition from strength training and this bodybuilding thing that I've been doing for the last five years, four years, five years, to CrossFit. And I'm like a pig in shit. I am. Oh yeah, someone like you would love that. Oh my God, man. And the coolest thing about it is that all the sports that I've done and competed in to date are like solo sports, right? Like Muay Thai, it's you, heavy bag. And how well you train is how well you're gonna perform against an opponent, but there's no team. I mean, there's friends, but there's no team. Long distance endurance running, certainly no team. It's you and the road, you know? Bodybuilding is probably the most isolated fitness experience one can have because it's really hard. It's 24-7 too. Yeah, it's just. You're eating alone in essence too. Yeah, if you're sitting with somebody else, you're eating something different than everybody else. Like when I first started the bodybuilding thing, my wife really just, you know, hated the fact that I was just so disciplined. She resented it, you know? She resented the fact that like I could be out at a barbecue spot and have my fucking prepped meal in my bag and be like, yo, that looks so good. So stepping into the CrossFit arena, it's a different ball game. It's like all community. And so I, you know, really what happened was my team about a month and a half ago, creatures that have it, we did a deep dive with our power users, power customers, people that have supported our company from the day one, 30% of them are CrossFit athletes, Crossfitters. And so they took me aside like six weeks, seven weeks ago and they were like, dude, you're a pro bodybuilder. You've got marathons and all these things under your belt with competition. 30% of your customers are Crossfitters. That's a massive percentage of customers that are doing the same thing. You're a competitive guy. How are you not at CrossFit right now? You know, like why are you not doing that? And that next day, I walked into the closest CrossFit gym to me upstate called Railroad CrossFit. I met the owner, Sean. I had no idea, I thought that they, you know, I walked in and I basically was like, yeah, I want to compete in the games. And I had no idea what I was talking about, you know, of course, I had not really... You're an optimist again. And they were like, whoa, whoa, whoa. And so they said, you know, can you come back in a few hours? We'd like to sit down and interview you. And I was like, interview me. What am I walking into here? And I'm so grateful that that's how they conduct because they sat down for, I guess, sat down with me for an hour and a half, asked me all these questions about my life and why I'm doing this and all this stuff. And they were like, look, man, you know, the culture and the community of this place is what makes it awesome. And if all you want to do is throw, you know, sandbags and kettlebells and barbells around and compete, there's a guy down the street, I would happily send you to me. And you should meet him anyway. But he was like, if you want to actually be a part of the community and have a really good time and challenge yourself, this is the place for you. And they said, and you know, after talking to me, he was like, I don't know if it's going to be great for you here because you've been doing all these sports where you're very competitive. And anyway, I went in there and I love it. I love the community aspect of it. I didn't think I would. I love it. I love, you know, doing a workout with, you know, a guy 15 years older than me or 15 years younger than me and being able to do a same workout with somebody, except they're moving different weight or moving at a slower, faster pace. And I just, I think it's awesome. So I'm going to compete in the games now. Give me a couple of years. No, but I definitely, you know, I love the CrossFit. Did you completely abandon the idea of doing the third restaurant concept? I mean, are you considering still, obviously now that the pandemic is... I mean, I think for me, now being out of the restaurant business for the last two years, for the first time in my life, I've been working in restaurants as a technician and then ultimately as a business owner for the last 28 years, 27 years before, you know, 2019. I have breakfast and dinner with my family every day. I do not miss it. Yeah, restaurants are demanding. I am at home at six o'clock every single day with my family having dinner with my boys. We go over there, rose-thorn in their bud for the day. Like I will never, ever give that up ever again. That's great. CPG game is extremely difficult and the margins are very slim. Are you at a one year now? Are you out of the red yet? No. No, we probably, I, you know, profitability in this, I mean, I've learned so much over the last year and a half, two years in this new industry. Profitability is where I've got my crosshairs are right sitting on profitability. That is my priority as a business owner because it's so rare to see profitability in the CPG game. You just keep raising and raising and hope that your sales and your revenue are strong enough that some big conglomerate wants to come around and scoop you up. I know, however, that profitability is what defines a healthy business. You know, like in the restaurant business, if you are not profitable, you're done. It's just that's, you know, that's just how it goes. And so, you know, no, we're not profitable yet. Hopefully, you know, we will be, we did 50% better than we projected in our first 12 months, which I'm proud to say. That's huge. And, you know, we have a strong, really bright future ahead. We got some great people involved with the company. People love the product. You know, we actually are, and I'm constantly iterating the product. You know, this is not, this is like, this is a full, complete meal. You know, you got 40 grams of carbohydrates, 30 grams of protein, and anywhere between nine and 12 grams of fat per serving, 350 calories, made in two minutes. You could take it everywhere and anywhere with you. I mean, I've got, I always have them in my bag because I'm like, I, you know, it's delicious and I don't want to sacrifice an unhealthy meal. So if I'm traveling and, you know, I'm in a hotel and, you know, there's nothing around. You get a microwave and stuff. That's it, boom, easy, you know? And so there will be more products over time. I'm in the habit business now. I'm not in the, I really don't look at it as a nutrition business. I look at it as really like, I'm going to create habits that are easily implementable for people to live better versions of their lives. And so, you know, that's going to come with some sleep stuff and it's going to come with some snack stuff over time. But, you know, this business is giving me the opportunity to tell my story that like you never know the catalyst to change. You never know what it's going to be. Oatmeal happened to be part of mine. You know what I mean? It's like, it just did. And I know it's- It's just oatmeal story of a rehearsal. Yeah, yeah, it is, you know? But at the end of the day, like authenticity is not duplicable, right? Like it is just not. And so if you've got a story to tell and it's real and you have, you believe it, you're, you know, I think entrepreneurs, the good ones are good storytellers. I mean, that's like it, you know? Like there's business of business is storytelling and relationships and the foundation of relationships is trust. And so if you could do those things, right? If you could tell a great story, develop relationships and then have people trust you, you could sell, you could sell, you know, shoelaces to Nike, you know what I mean? Like it's just, there's like that, that is it. And so I've never really been scared to take a risk on doing something that I believe with every cell in my body in. And every, and the businesses that I've launched to date have all been businesses that I, that are like part of my DNA, like they are me, right? Like I could stand in front of anybody and tell you the story of Meatball Shop, I could tell you the story of Seymours, I could tell you the story of Creatures of Habit because it is as real as it gets. And I think that resonates. Did I read that you're in the real estate game too? I'm not in the real, I mean, I've done real estate deals, but real estate deals have actually been super successful for me. I'm not in a ton of them, but- Oh, I thought I read that you had quite a few. No, no, I mean, I did a, you know, in the real estate decisions that I've made, I've done pretty well, but yeah, no, I would love eventually to get into the real estate arena because I just know- And then the two restaurants, you still are getting royalties basically from the two restaurant chains? No royalties. So I just sit on the board, I own a piece of equity. Oh, so there's no passive income coming from that? No. Oh. But you know, the goal is right, the goal for me is that the CEOs of those two companies continue to build them to the point where they get acquired and me owning 9% of those two companies each will be another awesome payday at some point, you know? Well, good deal. Great podcast, Mike. Thanks, guys. That was a good time, man. Thanks for coming on, I appreciate it. Thank you guys for having me. I didn't know we'd get as deep as we did. Yeah. I feel like I just got the best therapy session of my life, man. Like all brothers now. Really enjoyed it. Thank you guys so much, man. Thanks again. Right on. This one's really important and that is to phase your training. If somebody trains for a full year doing a bench press and they're always aiming for five reps, if you compared that person to a person who did bench press where they did three or four weeks of five reps, but then they did three or four weeks of 12 reps and then three or four weeks of let's say 15 to 20 reps and then they'll throw in some supersets, at the end of that year, you're gonna see more consistent progress from the person who's moving in and out and less injury. That's another thing. You'll see less injury as well.