 Good I may look forward here talking once again with my friend Richard. We're talking about a book that came out in 2017 I believe at least one version of it did is caught alone together Why we expect more from technology and less from each other It's by Sherry Turkle as a background in psychology and psychoanalysis and I'm gonna get us Started here with some cutting-edge insights. So, okay, this book first came out in 2010 now She is one typical sentence from the book. We are lonely, but fearful of intimacy and my first question is Is she talking about herself? Is she lonely? Is she fearful of intimacy or as somehow has she overcome these challenges of technology? Are people like her just so together that they don't experience a massive increase in loneliness since the development of smart phones She's just so smart and mature and competent and Adult that she she can handle technology, but the the plebs the plebs just can't handle technology So she says we are lonely, but fearful of intimacy But I don't recall her confessing in the book how lonely and fearful of intimacy She is and if she's not lonely if she's not fearful of intimacy if she has the same technology as the regular person How is she above and you know beyond all the problems that the people in her book have any thoughts Richard? Wow Let's let's not get controversial or anything Let's not get personal you know Um That's that's actually an interesting question My sense is that she's someone who has Because she's a psychologist and because of the world she lives in has probably done a lot of the work to mature herself as a person You know a lot of the people that she studies and I mean you know the book is pretty much you know An aggregation of all the different studies she did in her conclusions from those about how we deal with technology um You know she dealt with Kids, you know grade school children K through 12 she dealt with college students and she's you know, she dealt with older people and with elderly people So she had a pretty good spectrum But you know that it's often the difficulty with Studies like this is they do tend to fall within certain you know Certain limitations, you know Because she talks a lot about college students and high school students and you know, look, they're not mature By and large, they don't have the kind of maturity that Just from reading it just from the things she's talked about like she mentions, you know the time she spends Just in self-reflection and getting to know herself and she's she's pretty honest about You know her struggles with technology She finds herself doing things that she's surprised with And her frustration with with her daughter not being able to maybe have as much conversation as she would like to have So I think You know She doesn't talk about that directly because she's coming at this I think like a scientist and As a psych as a clinical psychologist and a sociologist And so she's she's kind of bringing it from that perspective. You know, what's what's the effect on the individual? But you know, what's what's the you know, expand that to the macro What's the effect on society as a whole and so she's looking at it from both those perspectives I think that's what I came away with from reading the book I mean, there's this whole genre On on how technology is destroying our lives how technology is making us lonely how technology is just wreaking havoc, but It never applies to all the people who are commenting It never applies to all the people who are making this case that there was this big netflix documentary on how technology is ruining our lives and it had interviews with all these tech experts But none of the tech experts thought the technology was ruining their lives It's like those people who want to claim that pornography causes rape. Well, somehow it doesn't cause them to rape It's it's only the lesser beings who who are driven to rape So there's this whole genre of books about we are doomed the technology is destroying us But somehow all the people who Have this hustle all the people who are making a living from telling us that we're doomed or the doomed sayers All the people who are calling us attention to these giant problems They rarely say oh, you know, it's ruining my life. It's usually It's usually not even brought up somehow Everyone else can navigate it and I got to tell you richard. I use technology I have a smartphone and I experience loneliness probably less than 0.1 of the time And the the issues that she talks about in this book I almost never see in my life because I am blessed to have functional people in my life Now I have seen these issues kind of on the periphery of my life or in the past Where I'd see a husband and a wife and they'd be far more interested in their cell phone than in each other But no one in my life today. Do I see that going on? and and so It's It seems like she is focusing on like there's this whole genre Focusing on how technology is destroying us But it seems to me richard that at the fundamental core of this problem Is that dysfunctional people will Display ever expanding ways of being dysfunctional, but Everyone I know in my life Overwhelmingly does not have these problems But dysfunctional people. Yeah They will they will retreat to technology rather than interacting with people But think about the people you know well in your life Do they are they devastated by loneliness because of their smartphones? Well, okay, let let me put that in perspective I appreciate that observation and there's some consistency With my own experience, but part of that is because I'm a person who's seeking emotional maturity. I'm a person who's dedicated In a very in a very serious way To doing that and so, you know, you attract what you are So, you know, the fact that I You know, I'm in 12th step and I'm surrounded by people who You know want to understand why they behave the way they do who are, you know, actively looking at that But but I and because you know, I I choose to have people like that in my life because I prefer those sorts of people You know, I've already sort of segregated the level of experience that I have now You could probably take that same Notion and apply that to sherry turkle She's viewing this from the standpoint of Going into schools going into nursing homes and and seeing how people respond to technology And so what what she's what she's shared Really kind of kind of brings that out Um, you know, I think it's dangerous to to to to project For example, for me to project my own experience of the world On everybody else now, you could probably say you I think your question really is is sherry turkle doing that um, and I and I think To be fair, I think I think there's enough objective information and studies that she's done because she's just not saying this off the cuff She she's got 30 years of research behind this So there is there are clearly issues With in relation to this at least in my experience but in my personal daily life Because of the way I choose to live I tend not to surround myself with people who are living the way that she describes people But I know and for the fact because I hear from other people and their conversations and the frustrations that they have That in fact these things are happening Yeah, I'm absolutely sure It happens to many many people because fundamentally dysfunctional people who are unable to connect normally With other people they're going to manifest that dysfunction in myriad ways. Some of them are going to be addicted to gaming Some are going to be addicted to alcohol. Some are going to be addicted to pornography Some are going to be addicted to sports. I mean, there are all sorts of ways that you can distract yourself and During there were times in my life when I was lonely And when I was lonely, I would sometimes act in a bizarre fashion or I would spend too much time watching tv or I would manifest my dysfunction in many different ways, but Once you're connected to people then I find that these these problems start to go away So that's my own experience once I'm feeling connected to others my desire to act out in bizarre and Destructive and socially destructive ways just considerably diminishes So, oh, absolutely, of course And then that's that's really kind of the whole point Let's can we do something for a minute? Let's let's kind of get a get an understanding of what what we mean by loneliness And I want to put it in the context because to me the context of this book is about the effect that technology Has on us. In fact, one of the one of her One of her quotes, we have to love our technology enough to describe it accurately And we have to love ourselves enough to confront technology's true effects on us And I think she explores that question Pretty pretty well And I think we're kind of right now It's kind of skirting the surface of that and really not not okay. Could you repeat what you just read? Yeah, we have to love our technology enough to describe it Accurately and we have to love ourselves enough to confront technology's true effects on us And you know, she talked there's another There's another really good one here Um Yeah, why don't you address that quote that you just that you just read Why don't you offer some thoughts on the quote you just read and then I'll offer some thoughts and then we can go on to another quote Well, technology is here to stay the internet's not going away That's not going to happen um and The way technology affects us, you know, she spends a lot of time Talking about the effect that texting has on that now. I saw in your notes that, you know, you don't text a lot Right Fine. I know that most school kids That I know And then they have parents they they do somewhere between two and six thousand texts a month Wow so so What and what one of the things that she she points out is that That technology when when you're using it in that way The effect is she sees and she's seeing this as a psychologist now admittedly a psychologist probably tends to see more sick people Then she does seem to see well people. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? So that you know that that may skew that and I am not going to appreciate that but But the technology is still affecting us in a particular way You know, I have to be conscious for example I know I I know one time I joke to you my wife and I sit on the couch and she's you know On her on her candle and I'm on my phone. What and we're doing different things You know, and that's exactly what she's talking about You know, that's That's her idea of alone together or that's one of the facets of that That I think she's getting it and and what are the implications long term For our culture and how we how we relate to each other. Okay. Hang on. Let me let's just Unpack that that example you said where you're on one device and your wife is on another and then you You repeated the title of the book alone together Are you any more alone together than if you're each reading separate books? I have often been alone with my girlfriend and we're each reading separate books and there's no There's no loneliness there. We're each absorbed in different books. So perhaps perhaps we need to define loneliness and I'm going to define loneliness is Erratic thinking because when you're alone and you feel good you feel fine. You're enjoying your alone time Your your thought process is going to be smooth. So that's not loneliness You're enjoying. I enjoy a lot of downtime where it's just me reading books Or writing and if my thought process is smooth, then that's not loneliness. That's just wonderful time on my own Now I also occasionally experience and in the past have more often experienced Erratic thinking where I can't settle down to one thing Because I'm not getting the human connection that I need because I am feeling lonely because I am Jod and jangly and disconnected. So I I know what loneliness feels like It is not a smooth thought process. It's it's you're disconnected. You can't settle down and happily do one thing That's that's my definition of loneliness and I'm going to wager that when you and your wife are on different devices That that in and of itself is no more significant than if you're reading different books Or if you're engaging in different tasks in the same room It's it's only if you're disconnected from your wife and you're not able to absorb yourself in the device Because you're ill at ease because your thoughts are not smooth that you're feeling lonely. That that's the problem. That's my thought Yeah, and and I like she she actually gives it a fairly good definition of loneliness What she says is loneliness is failed solitude Yeah, to experience to and and this is what you were talking about and I and by the way I agree with what you said in terms of you know She says the to experience solitude you must be able to summon yourself by yourself Otherwise you will only know how to be lonely in his history of solitude. Anthony store writes about the importance of being able to feel at peace in one's own company And that's another way of describing that just being being comfortable in your own skin Just going hey, I don't have to seek out this. I don't have to seek out that I have I have a peaceful mindset I can I can be by myself and enjoy my thoughts and enjoy that solitude And and part of what allows that to happen I think and I and I suspect you to agree is that because I've done the work to have good relationships I mean, I have great relationship with my wife. So the in fact for me And when when we do then it's it is that rather than me being up in my office You know and her being downstairs, you know doing what she's doing. I said, oh, let's go to let me We'll do a ticket We'll do in the same room so we can be in each other's presence and just enjoy being with each other It doesn't really require Direct interaction because we have plenty of that. I mean, we really do have plenty of that now What she's focusing on is the effect that That the technology and those sorts of things have on people who haven't done that work Don't have those relationships and in fact Who use the technology to hide from relationships? That's what she's getting at and I think that's a very that's a very real trend Yeah, let's Let me let me just share a little bit about my experience of loneliness because I have known lonely days and lonely nights I am a 55 year old bachelor. So when I feel lonely, this is what I notice about when I feel lonely There is a lethargy often There is I am ill at ease I am restless irritable and discontented to use big book language I can't settle down productively and happily at a task And often there's just a yearning for attention or for distraction distraction from food From pleasure seeking Like tv Fantasies of grandiosity. So I spent much of my life Dulling the feelings of loneliness that I had by absorbing myself in In fantasies of of my becoming an incredibly great powerful famous Influential person one day making everyone else then, you know, you know set up and pay attention to how how amazing I am so That's that's my experience of loneliness. I don't know. Do you have any history with loneliness and how would you deal with it? It's been a long time since I've experienced that that kind of anxiety I have other relational issues that I have dealt with But it doesn't doesn't It doesn't show up like loneliness in the way that you've described um Because I you know, actually I was raised an only child You know, so I I I came to really actually enjoy Being by myself and being creative by myself and my parents kind of you know They were there enough for me You know, I I didn't feel that I was missing anything So I've never really had that that deep yearning sense of loneliness. I've just really never had it Really? I mean that's that's amazing. Yeah. Now now I'm going to say this And and I'm going to go back to to maybe a little bit of what she said Is that this idea of solitude is not something that's uncomfortable for me I I I have I have been fortunate and I know and I know it's fortunate because I know a lot of people don't experience this Um, and I'm not bragging about it. It's just I'm just being honest with what I experienced you know, it's It's been that that because I've been You know, I was kind of raised without brothers and sisters There were some deficits from that deficits from that and where my relational deficits came from is my lack of skill In really understanding the consequences of my actions within relationships That produced the addictions that I hid in Because I didn't know how to deal with relationships. Yeah, no or because I needed to medicate the pain of them But but that didn't that didn't come from loneliness in that sense in the sense of wishing I had other people I I've um I I've been fortunate in that I always seem to have just about the right amount of people in my life and just about the right amount of time by myself at I I can't necessarily even explain it Okay, that's Because because the only way we can get it anything is to be honest about and transparent about what we experience That's my experience. So I come to it with that with that perspective Okay, so how about have you wrestled with hey, I'm spending too much time on my phone I'm spending too much time distracting myself with technology I am hiding in in my use of technology from other people. Has that been an issue. Let me ask myself Um, what did I just say have I spent too much time in technology? Yes. So I I I've felt Okay, I need to spend more time with other people my natural inclination is to spend more time alone than is good for me So my natural inclination is that my interactions with other people have to be on my terms And and if I don't get it on my terms, then I'm just going to go do my own thing So I naturally incline towards less social interaction than is good for me And I can very much Spend too much time in technology and I like the feature on my iPhone that tells me how many times a day I pick up my phone. So I think I I pick up my phone about 50 times a day, which is okay for me I I'm all right with that and I spend about an hour to two hours a day on my phone Which I I'm okay with So but but sometimes I I feel like oh I have gone through phases where I would check facebook too much or I check my phone too much Or I just kind of look to my phone for some kind of endorphin Hit so I'm I'm aware that I do have some tendencies in that direction But what's your own experience with? Overuse of technology you're hiding with tech That's a that's a good question I'd say my my My preferred my drug of choice my technology drug of choice Is surfing the internet and research and just you know finding stuff that I'm interested in and and you know Bookmarking it and we're putting it in every note or whatever and then maybe not going back and really Really doing anything with it because you know you kind of get that dopamine hit when you find something that you're looking for Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, that's great It it's helpful to me when I do something with it It's not necessarily helpful to me when I just collect it And so for me, you know, there is a certain pathology In you know, how much I collect and how much I actually follow through with that's that's one place that I that I have to be Very careful And I I'd say that I'm still working through that You know, I've got a lot of notes and every note and I've come to the point where I organize it pretty well So I do a fairly good job of it, but it it can be much better and much more accessible You know as I as I work on on writing and actually writing to you know, and the research that's involved in that You know, I see how I see how much improvement needs to be made because I not only do I need to be able to have it But I need to be able to access it and access it in a way That allows me to operate on I guess You know on demand so when somebody needs something for me, I can I can bring it out and get it out quickly Or when I need something for my own purposes that I can access at hand to me The definition of organization is being able to find something in 30 seconds or less That that's how I measure whether something's organized or not Now most of the things in my life are like that, but but you know in terms of my research Yeah, I'm still you know Still kind of wrapping around like that I remember the last time I saw my father and I had a pretty good idea that this would be the last time in my life that I saw my father and It was 2014 something like June of 2014 and At the end of that interaction as we would we're driving away But probably the last 15 minutes of my perhaps of my time with my father on this earth All I could think about was that I I wasn't getting reception on my cell phone So I got a I got a cop to that and I knew I knew this is going to be the last time you get to see your dad And all I can think about is that I'm not getting reception on my phone And it wasn't till about 15 minutes after we drove away that I finally got reception on my phone And I was able to check my email and then I was able to calm down. So I will admit You know, that's that's not uh, that's not a very impressive thing Uh, that that's sometimes like that that need for connectivity will overwhelm all other considerations Like if my computer does not work or if I can't find my phone Maybe once every Three years I misplaced my phone Everything else just goes out the window for for 20 30 40 minutes I am just frantic to find my phone And if if like the internet goes down for you know, 20 minutes 30 minutes I I'm starting to Crawl the walls if my computer doesn't work or my my phone god forbid doesn't work That just occupies all operating space in my mind So I may think I'm sailing along just fine with technology But it can just hit me out of the blue and and it's hard for me to adjust I'm not sure if you have any experiences like that Oh, yeah Nothing nothing sends me into paroxysms of You know, I I actually had a friend of mine described it to me That's that's like one of the few years when it doesn't work when everything's working. It's fine And I'm working to to not respond to that But one of my friends said yeah, you go from zero to a hundred if something doesn't work like I was you know Trying to figure out something at church and in a sound system and I wasn't I couldn't hear what was going on I was like, oh my god, it's not working and I go like Can you help me out with this and like, you know, the truth is I know but I know and I know this about myself I go from zero to you know, like frantic When I can't control it and it's it's definitely a control thing You know, she talks about that a lot. She has a lot of different examples about that In in a whole different variety of ways So I think in that in that sense for me when I when I read this I go Some of the circumstances or the situations she describes are different from mine But the anxiety that I get when I when I lose my sense of my connection To something because I'm very dependent on it, you know, and my wife needs to talk to me I you know, it's a way that I connect to a lot of the things that matter to me So different than if the power went out, you know I remember I was on a date. I met this woman at synagogue We went on a first date and she kept taking calls And I was ticked and and I'd picked her up and given her a ride So I was not going to just walk away and abandon her But I was ticked and that was it as far as I was concerned Like anyone who treats me like that, that's it Now she then tried to have a relationship with me like for the next two years She would pursue me but I was like no way am I going to try to relate to someone who's on on her phone So people like that. I just I just dropped them from my life I mean, I will not put up with trying to have a conversation with someone who's constantly hopping on their phone So what are your experiences? Well I'm really thinking that you know, there are times when I don't take phone calls when I'm with somebody else Yeah, but I do I do, you know, sometimes have my my my phone on the table And it's interesting that you know, she cites some of the studies they've done That indicate that that has a real effect on people that it it it affects people's ability or willingness to be more intimate In other words, if you put your phone down there and people know that you're going to divide your attention The the the conversation tends not to go into the deeper realms of human interaction and things You know important topics and things that tends to stay more superficial There's been a lot of studies apparently at least according to sherry turkle That that demonstrate that so I think that And this to me, this is kind of the heart of the book. What effect is our technology having on us in our relationships now, you know You're you share your, you know, you're in tolerance with people who are not going to pay attention to you Um, they're going to pay attention to their phones um I don't like that. I try I I don't really do that as a practice if something Does come up. I'll say I'll excuse myself. I'll ask. Hey, listen. I need to take this call Just give give me a second and and acknowledge the other person But the people that we all know and I know people like this who just you know, they just They just take the call like I'm not even there Uh people like that are not safe people People like that are really and that this is this is the problem that I think she's focusing on This book is is what that does to us how that divided attention And the fact that you know, where we where where we get our life from or where we get our where we perceive our relationships are Online Distances us from the people that we're actually in the room with And I think that's really one of the core issues she's dealing with in this book Like when I I grew up in Australia and then we moved to california when I was 11 and I developed a life Lifelong habit where I suddenly just became absolutely obsessed with all the people I left behind and I'd write them long letters Like I just you know really I guess missing them and writing really long lesson letters And so I would I would get obsessed and then that still comes over me It's like oh what happened to that person? I knew in 10th grade or what about that person? I fell out with when I was 19 or I wonder what's happened to you know This person I knew when I was 30 so I will become obsessed with with past relationships And I know that that's like a a signal that I'm not as presently engaged with other people as I should be so A person in the chat says an obsession is an obsession It could manifest in obsession with technology or it could be an obsession with just thoughts that you're having That are preventing you from connecting. So I think that's a good point obsessions or obsessions And technology is one One way that these obsessions can manifest that can get in the way of smooth interactions with other people So Here's the bottom line richard. I think that her book Applies in a telling way to 40 percent of the population The 40 percent of the population are particularly prone to various addictions And then the other 60 percent of the population. I think it does not apply to as severely What do you think? I I'm not sure I venture out on a on a statistic like that, but I I can't say for certain because I So I I'm gonna I'm gonna sort of Decline to step into that arena, but you may be right I I think I'd be I'm interested enough in this because what what really interests me in this whole thing is is what People are willing to do to improve their ability to relate to one another and and the importance that I think that has and the threat that Artificial intelligence The internet texting all of these different technological tools Can be to that now I do think it's true that there are some people who are inclined to abuse those things And they're gonna they're gonna have problems with it and a lot of people are not are kind of normies when it comes to how they use technology I think you and I are probably I would say we're more on the normie side In terms of how we use technology, I maybe I'm being overly gracious to both of us, but you know Um, you know, it's it's it doesn't keep me from having the kind of relationships. I want I have a good marriage I have friends, you know, I I make time for the people in my life that matter to me And I think those that's a healthy choice One of the things that Um, there was a study that was done and this this is very very telling. I'm gonna I'm gonna just quote this from from here The mean number of people with with whom Americans can discuss matters important to them dropped by nearly one third From, you know, two point nine four people in 1985 to two point eight Two point zero eight in 2004 Those researchers also found that the number of people who said they had no one with whom to discuss such matters more than doubled to nearly 25 percent The survey found that both family and non-family confidence dropped with the lost greatest in non-family connections So Now that's that's one study and I know that that doesn't conclude anything But you know, I've heard enough other Reports of you know the fact that most people don't have friends people, you know Used to have five or six, you know close friends now. They maybe have one or two if they even have those And you know, one of the questions that interests me about this book is how much of that Is related to how we use technology in other words, how much of it do we spend our time do we do people some people spend their time You know playing games In an in an addictive way Or spending time on facebook making facebook friends superficial relationships that really Don't You know aren't sustaining that you know one one of the things that that she talks about and I'll say this He was talking about a young man who? Texting makes it possible for this guy to have a conversation in which he does not have to hear the sound of a voice He finds irritating He has a way to make plans with his cousin during the summer without sharing any pleasantries or showing any interest And he later goes on to say and she mentions that she's heard this in a number of cases that Young people today are afraid of the telephone because they're afraid of having a real conversation because they don't know how to do it Because they spend most of their time In what they they believe is communication Via text and via facebook and via the internet where and and the thing she points out and I agree with this Is that on facebook you construct a persona? It's not you It's the you you want people to see now is that in itself inherently a bad thing? No, I think we all have always done that I think that's as old as humankind But the way that the technology presents that to us Is you can literally get so submersed in that so submerged in that You can forget there's a real world out there Pretty quickly Yeah, so A lot of examples of that right, so my I see these these problems by and large are symptoms rather than the underlying core issue because I just know so many Functional people who don't have these problems in a severe way And so what what I would see is that a more diverse america You're going to have fewer fewer friendships because if you can't speak the same language as the people around you You're not going to be friends with them if the people around you are of a different religion You're going to be less likely to be friends with them the more you have in common with people the more likely You are to be friends with them. So I think a more diverse america is making it more difficult to build friendships and and communities but people who belong to a church or a synagogue or a mosque or a 12 step program or who You know dedicated to their profession or to Their educational to their education By and large I see these people as having friends What I'm stunned about is so many people I know who live with our community and this I think this living with our community is not primarily about technology There are all sorts of people that I encounter which I find stunning They just they don't want to live in community because living in community is difficult It is challenging because other people will know your business And the the community is going to import tune on you at times. So I think this comes down to Uh, particularly on the west coast we're talking on the west coast on the east coast Traditional ties of religion ethnicity and and schooling are much stronger than they are on the west coast but I'm I'm stunned by the number of people who just don't want to live in in community and I think that's what's driving a lot of the loneliness richard I Wholeheartedly agree 100% um, I'm I'm This is this is a little another uh piece I dropped out of there was early in the book um She's talking about this woman in her mid 20s Confided that she would trade in her boyfriend for a sophisticated japanese roba If the robot would produce what she called caring behavior She told me that she relied on the feeling of civility in the house. She did not want to be alone. She said If the robot could provide the environment, I would be happy to help produce the illusion That there is somebody really with me She was looking for a no risk relationship that would stay off loneliness A responsive robot even when just exhibiting scripted behavior seems better to her than a demanding boyfriend I asked her gently if she was joking. She told me she wasn't And I think that that illuminates exactly what we're talking about and this is this is you know This was kind of the driver for me to read this book is to have a To kind of get a better handle on what role technology Plays in this or what part technology plays in this and I think I I'll agree with you and I said I agree wholeheartedly not to you why because I think The way we use technology is a symptom. It's not the problem And the problem is our fundamental inability to relate to each other and the diminishing willingness to do so And what's particularly frightening about technology Is just what what you see in this comic because she has she has a lot of Interaction with you know roboticist and people who are building robots to do precisely that in other words to fill in where other people don't I mean, you know, they have you know 100,000 100 200,000 six robots in In japan that that some of these men prefer to having a wife Because there's a robot does exactly what they want when they want it And that's that's pathology. I'm sorry. I consider that a pathology Yeah, but are these men otherwise healthy guys and this is just you know, this one weird tech I mean, is this woman who'd prefer a robot to a boyfriend or a husband? Is she otherwise, you know all there and this is just one weird tech. Heck no These people are, you know, fundamentally broken. I mean no normal person Operates this way and this is just one manifestation But if you looked at these people you'd find 53 freaky things going on in their life Now you can have an orgasm with a sex robot and you can have an orgasm with your spouse But the the emotional connection and energy that comes from it is from those interactions are going to be very different richard Oh Without a doubt But what what I think is fascinating about this book is she explores And she explores that on a positive and negative side I think she her strong opinion is that we need to relate to each other and that's vastly more important Then then mimicking Or simulating relationships Robots can do and that can do very very well They're particularly good at Mimicking our emotions because the fact of the matter is Here let's put it this way Here's here's one of her quotes the robotic performance of emotion might exist in its own category Implies nothing about the authenticity of emotions being performed and robots do not have emotions that we must respect We build robots to do things that make us feel as though they have emotions Our responses are their design template So You know, there are some very clever people designing machines to respond to us the way we want to be responded to And I know enough about you know, my own struggles with Having a relationships and addictions to know that you know What we want like this young woman who prefers a robot to a boyfriend because the boy the boyfriend's unpredictable You know the fact the fact is The truth about life is that life is difficult. It's full of suffering. It's unpredictable and that's real life Anything else, you know, according Wesley from the princess bride life is pain anybody who tells you different is selling something I think that applies here And I think there's a lot of you know companies that want to sell us, you know machines and robots that that You know meet our vulnerabilities our human vulnerabilities With with something that's safer than than the risk of real relationship And you know, that's that's a topic of great interest to me How do we train each other Train ourselves and then train each other in the willingness to be fully human which means Doing the hard work of being patient with other people by learning to by learning who we are Seeing our own foul abilities and realizing everybody else has them That of course produces a level of patience and tolerance that you wouldn't have otherwise But if you haven't done that work, you're not going to be tolerant and I don't know what the percentage of people who haven't done that work. I you know, you said you think it's 60 percent or normal and 40 percent or or not I I if I were going to go out on a limb, I would say it's probably more skewed the opposite way But but I don't know that for a fact and so I sort of declined Well, I'm just using the statistics often given for Secure attachment so people with secure attachment are generally estimated to comprise about 60 percent of the population and the other 40 percent have distracted or insecure attachment or they're avoidant so Because people are wired to connect if they don't connect naturally with other people They're going to have to connect with something be the be it a substance or a process So if I if these surveys are actually that are about 60 percent of the population has secure attachment Then I'm talking about a 60 percent who's not going to be you know, weirdly and destructively obsessed with technology And this reminds me of an essay. I read a couple of weeks ago by a plain overweight Feminist who was 38 years of age and she was writing why young men so scared of sex And she's complaining that sexting has taken the place of sex And she doesn't even consider that young men are simply afraid of sex with her or not particularly interested in her That they will sex with her based on meeting her on a on an app But they're not particularly interested in her if if it was someone who's younger and hotter and more compelling and more More easy going, you know, then then they'd be much more down So as far as this this we are a fearful of intimacy. Well, I'm fearful of intimacy with many people I don't want to be intimate with them. I want very little to do with them. I only want to have you know, basic interactions with them so uh, some some of this uh fear of intimacy we we need to be Exercising good judgment with whom we we try to develop intimacy But for for people I know who've grown up in you know functional homes with with siblings They they generally seem to naturally incline towards relationships with others and and then there are just some people who are who are You know really struggling in this area and so sherry turkle writes we'd rather text than talk Well, sometimes it is more appropriate to text than to talk I had a sponsor and she did not like text She did not have texting and so it made it a real pain I had to call her if I ever needed to reschedule an appointment or didn't show up It would be much more efficient to just text There are some transactions that are far better done on text Than than over the phone and as far as intimacy We don't want to be having deep intimacy with you know indiscriminately Like some people try to get far more from say work relationships than is appropriate So those are some of my Some of my thoughts anything you want to react to You you you bring up a really good point is the texting really does um To represent more of a transactional form of communication You know what we're doing right now is having a conversation Yeah, that that requires thought that inquires engagement that inquires, you know Some preparation that it There's a lot of things and I'm and I you know, we both are bringing Pretty much our whole selves to this and giving our whole selves to this and that's you know, that's fantastic If if we're and you know, you can't do that with everybody all the time, of course not And you know, I know for me I agree with you for me. It's like I I I like to Text back and forth on transactional information You know like what time we mean when do we do that? You know and and you know people are busy and you know You know, you hear it you hear it in program a lot, you know texting me before you call So I know who it is because the truth of the matter is I don't want to take take a phone call with somebody That that I don't want to talk to um And if it's a program person, you know, there can be a little conflict because I might I might care to do that Maybe I might want to because I'm concerned about the person Which you know, but for me, it's I found it better to use and see this I think I think Technology needs to grow up. She does say that but she focuses more on the research and the problem She's found which now hear that and that's her role because that's that's kind of what she she's been doing but I think I think it's very useful to text When when all you need to do is communicate like I text my wife. Hey, I'm on the way home Okay, I'll talk to her when I get home you know, I wanted to know that She's on that I'm on the way home Or she'll text me and say hey, could you pick something up? Or or I'll text her, you know And say hey, I'm at Rouse. Do you need me to pick something up? You know, whatever Oh those kind of things Those are purely transactional what what what sherry turkle in the book kind of focuses on is And again, we don't have to necessarily determine what the percentage is But she's focusing on the percentage of people who are dysfunctional around this More I think than on the beat than on the percentage of people who are Using technology in a more healthy way. I mean there's I think there's still things that are That can be troublesome um Right and of course, we don't always see ourselves and and you know problems can pop up just like I mentioned I I really didn't want to spend last 15 minutes of my time on this earth with with my father obsessed with my My phone and why it wasn't getting a connection. So I'm not proud of that and and there are other times when yeah, suddenly there'll be an unhealthy element to My my relationship to tax to tax that that I didn't see before But there is just so many benefits to it as well. I mean facebook is a wonderful way For reconnecting with people from childhood or just staying in touch with with acquaintances I mean that there I use a facebook to log in to a ton of websites So I don't have to remember my password So if you're using the tech rather than the tech using you Perhaps that's that's an important difference Now it's probably worth remembering that She wrote this book in 2010 And you know It's now 2021 I listened to a talk she did about three years ago at google and you know her focus is now on Building people's capacity for real conversations Which actually is is is you know kind of aligned with what I'm what I'm actually interested in personally Is you know, how do you you know You got to do you got to do the hard work of doing your phd in your own humanity. You have to do that work In a complex world like that we live in now It doesn't happen by accident left to itself All that will happen is you'll get problem after problem that you won't know what to do with and pretty soon The garden of your life is full of weeds and and it's overtaken everything else So you have to deliberately systematically cultivate the things that you want in your life And equally deliberately and equally systematically remove those things that you don't to me. That's what 12 steps all about And and you know I think I guess now that I'm having the discussion and realizing that I don't know You know really in a way that I'm comfortable Saying, you know, what percentage of people suffer with this or what percentage of this people have minimal struggles What people have big struggles? What what is that spectrum? You know of how people deal with us. I think that's that's something that's going to become a more interest to me than Yeah, but again, I think it's overwhelmingly a symptom I I don't think generally speaking people need Particular education on the appropriate ways of dealing with tech once you start having normal relationships that these problems themselves out No, I'm not talking about that I'm talking about, you know being you know, how What this what the tech and the misuse of tech is a symptom of That's that's, you know, how do you acquire wisdom? How do you acquire wisdom? I mean, I think the number one answer for most people would be Not blocking it from from entering your life. I mean life is trying to teach you every day And and the more that you can just drop your barriers to learning the lessons that life is Is you know trying to hammer you with then then you will you will acquire wisdom And then sometimes for some people that 40 they're gonna have to make special efforts going to therapy or a 12-step program I think for most people if they can simply let down their guard That their idea deflect their shield I think most of the wisdom that they need will flow on them I'm not I'm not sure I agree with that all together and part of the reason I I disagree Or might be I'm not gonna say I disagree I I'm gonna sort of take a Well, that's that might be true. You know, you might be right about that But With the experience I've had in really coming to terms with You know, how complex it is to be human and the interactions I have with all kinds of different people I see these deficits in most in most people In more than 40% but now The 40% that we're talking about is see if we're going to use that Are people who really have difficulties need therapy who need And you know, you need antidepressant drugs or this and that sort of thing, you know, how do we deal with that? um I think that that is probably more on the extreme side, but I I take I take the I I I want to stand on the premise that To really be fully who we are you do have to do this even if you're not suffering with major problems because It's sort of like looking at it this way okay if If your car's in the ditch you got to dig it out of the ditch, okay But if your car's just in the garage You got to take it out and drive it and To get the most out of it you have to know how to maintain it you have to know how to maintain it properly and You know, one of the things we see for example in American in American medicine Is that most people don't don't take care of themselves. They wait till they hit a crisis And and and that's the kind of thing i'm talking about what if what What would society look like and forgive me for being somewhat idealistic? What would society look like if more people said okay, I'm not just going to settle for what for you know just surviving What would thriving really look like? You know, what would I have to do to be to be to quote the army? phrase be all that you can be You know, and that's certainly one of the things that in under earners anonymous we talk about you know How do you how do you live that full prosperous life that we all? You know deep down know we want and and try to pursue and some of us do it successfully and a lot of us You know Run into walls that we don't know how to circumvent and most of those walls in my experience Aren't the fact that that life doesn't want to present those things most of that is we have to learn life's lessons In order to be able to do that and like you said if you're listening you can acquire the wisdom to be able to do that I question How what what the percentage of people who actually listen to that wisdom is or we're actually seeking that is I think it's it's It's lower than than I think you credit people with I heard once that there are different types of marriages Some some marriages are united by say personal growth But you know, you're both wanting to grow and be or you can be But a lot of other marriages are legacies that you want to leave a legacy behind such as children so I would expect that most adults who are married have children and Therefore you're going to be so busy. You're going to be so busy paying for your kids Keeping up at work Spending time with your children spending time with your community spending time with your friends Maybe having a little bit of time to pursue your hobbies But I think you and I have far more time to engage in personal growth and spiritual growth than These things that most most people do because most people have perhaps far more obligations Than than we do and so we get to be all into the personal growth Well, okay That's that's that's an interesting perspective and I and I think it's There's some merit in that and I think to try to raise to try to raise children to be good human beings You can't give away what you don't have and I can you know, I can certainly think of Plenty of families and plenty of friends where you know, the kids are all a wreck because the parents did exactly what you described Yeah, I did think I don't think parents really matter that much for how kids turn out I think kids are primarily the result of their genetics and their peer group So aside from helping to select a child's peer group by Say choosing where you're going to live or where you send the kids to school I don't really think parents make that much of a difference in how kids turn out. What's your perspective? Um adamantly disagree Um the first five years of your life are what determine your emotional language That's the way that you enter life and you we get that from our families And in particular from our parents um For better or for worse and some kind of just for the worse and sometimes it's for the better but That that's an argument that educators like to bring all the parents parents are irrelevant We don't need them anymore. We we can take over raising children because we'll do a much better job But you know, the fact of the matter is Good parenting means that you you you love your spouse You set that example in the household of a loving spouse And then you you turn that and then you teach your your children your progeny How to do the same thing now? I happen to be in a church setting where I've seen that work and I you know And I see that the fruit of that over marriages that work really well over, you know 20 30 40 50 years And I see the kind of people they are and the kind of children they have And these are people who I are very dedicated To the kind of personal worth I'm talking about and I have put in the time on and and On the contrary, I see people in program who who you know tried to do all the things you describe And because they're not all right inside because they don't have those You know those life skills those good life muscles That's why they're in program. That's why they ended up that way. So I And you know, I'm sure you know, I thought you have you have pretty wide spectrum there And there you know, different people are going to follow different places along that spectrum. There's no one you know one Demographic that that kind of incorporates everything. I think you've got a whole spectrum of different things that are going on But I but here here's what Is one of the reasons I wanted I to focus on on the technology part of this is that The fact that we're going to be dealing with technology. That's that's much more engaging to us and much more Here I'll put it this way The guy who invented the Ibo which is like a like a pet like a robot dog Which is very lifelike. Have you ever seen one? I don't know if you have you seen any of the robots you talks about in that book No Like Ibo or furby if you haven't seen those, you know, I take some time and look at those because It kind of brings a perspective to this and to what is really coming In terms of the kind of technology we create and how we'll interact with it But this is what one of the this is on the this is on the pro side of technology and I happen to be pro technology I think it's a tool. We use our tools. We don't let our tools use us and that I completely agree with you But here this guy John Lester imagines that robots will change the course of human evolution In the future. He says we won't simply enjoy our tools. We will come to care for them They will teach us how to treat them and how to live with them Will evolve to love our tools our tools will evolve to be lovable Now that's a guy who builds robots Who builds robots that that cause emotional reactions in people That that cause people to want to take care of them That's that that Ibo is a little pet dog that you want to take care of and you don't take care of it It gets sick, you know It responds to not being cared for as well as it responds to being cared for Now I I think one of the interesting aspects of this is that as we do this as we explore all these kind of things I think I think personally that the that This is going to engender The need for a deeper kind of introspection a deeper understanding of who we are and how we operate and what causes us to Think the way we do act the way we do and how we can actually learn to do that better I I think that's this is going to produce quite a bit of that over the next, you know 100 years Now I just give two reasons why I I don't buy that Parents shape children nearly as much as most people think number one Identical twins range raised apart in separate homes. They have Very similar life results So even though they've been raised in completely different homes, they have the same life results Also, there's no statistical evidence for any type of parenting that produces statistically significant results So there may be evidence coming down the track But those are the two reasons why I'm skeptical and then we're getting to a second point That is there any true self that say inter interacts with technology or Interacts with other people and from my readings in sociology and moral philosophy. I'm coming to the conclusion No, there is no true self. I don't have a true self. I am who I am when I'm talking to you I'm who I am when I'm talking to Jeff. I am who I am in a work situation I am who I am doing a youtube show That there are just different facets of me that are brought out by different situations But when I'm running late, I am going to be much more Just a bottom line and much less patient in my dealings with people. I'm going to be much more abrupt the more Competition that I'm under the much more likely I am to be spiteful So when I'm happy and calm I'm unlikely to be spiteful But if I'm competing for my survival or for my job Then I'm going to be much more likely to be spiteful. So there's no There's no if if there's no true self that there's no moral character So so there's there's the politician who is a faithful public servant at work But then in his private life, he's got seven different mistresses and it's not astounding Because people are always going to be different in every situation. So I I can tend to you Richard There's no true Luke that there's just Luke in different situations And I ask you is there a true Richard? So how do we determine What builds good relationships and what doesn't? What criteria do we use to do that? Oh, I can I can give you a precise answer One is the ability to have a shared focus of attention and two is an ability to be in rhythm There Okay, and how do you do that? Oh, well, you have to have a one to have a shared focus of attention So we're discussing something so if I'm not listening to you If I'm just simply waiting for you to finish saying what you're going to say And then because I'm just all thinking about what I want to say then Then You're going to not feel very good and I'm not going to feel very good and the audience is not going to feel good It's going to be a herky jerky show So it has to be a desire to have a shared focus of attention and then two It's the ability to be in in rhythm with the other person So in in a normal conversation in the Anglo world when one person stops speaking There's about point one of a second until the other person starts see speaking So in in Anglo society that that's kind of the norm if you're constantly interrupting each other or if there are long pauses in the conversation You're not in rhythm So it's both the desire And then the capacity to hold a shared focus of attention and to be in rhythm with the other person If you can do that you will produce emotional energy from the interaction and your bond and out of that bond will come a feeling of righteousness and and a moral upshot Well, I would agree that The the concept of what righteousness is is that being in right relationship with other people The the thing we find is that you know If if you are discontent with the job you have and you want to go out and you know Sabotage one of your co-workers in order to get their job because you think that's a better job And you do a good job of that What do you say about that? Oh, it depends on the context again, it's situational if I've got $50,000 in the bank and I don't care about the job Um, then if I go out and sabotage other people when I'm not under that severe pressure Then then it indicates, you know one sort of predisposition But sabotaging other people let's let's take that context again. Let me think about it more more freely So you're in a job and you're sabotaging your competitors on the job. Is that the scenario that you're describing? Let's let's let's take that one just just for the sake of discussion. Sure. Okay, so Let's let's and make let's make it even more specific. You're sabotaging your co-workers who are competing with you to not get fired Right. Okay. So there we've got a really specific situation So you're under a lot of pressure if you and let's also posit that you really really want and need to keep this job Right. So you're under a lot of pressure that you will you you will lose your home You could very well lose your family and your child is not going to get the medical care that your child needs So under that situation, I would say to you Richard that the situation will be far more determinative of how Spiteful and how how willing you are to sabotage other people than whatever your purported moral character is in many of these situations The situation is going to be more determinative than the individual And then moral character well That may be true for people who don't place a value on on living On a moral basis in other words preferring You know preferring positive and healthy relationships to um ones that aren't I would agree with that and I think we see plenty we see plenty of situations where Situational ethics are applied over and over again. I I don't find that society is better off for that I find society is worse off for that So what percentage of people in that situation that you outlined where you're in danger of getting You get one of you some of you are going to lose your job to save your job You are incentivized to sabotage your co-workers so that you can Preserve your home preserve your marriage and get the medical care that your sick child needs I would say that 95 percent of god-fearing christians and jews would sabotage Their co-workers in that extreme situation People who think of themselves as righteous and godly Because the situation is so strong. What's your I mean think of yourself if I was in that situation I would sabotage I would not be righteous enough to to deal Righteously with my co-workers in that situation if you're in that situation Where you trying to preserve your marriage preserve your home and get the medical care that your sick child needs How confident are you that you would not engage in sabotaging behavior to save yourself? I would I would be dishonest if I said I'm absolutely certain That I wouldn't be that I wouldn't consider that That's true But this this to me is where where faith actually Actually matters. This is where faith and morality sort of meet you know if if we And I think this this goes back to something we were talking about earlier In that how you know how we use the technology It is a reflection of who we are And in other words if we're not if we're not healthy on the inside Okay, then we're going to misuse the technology Where do where is it where is it real or where is it written that The way that let's say you let's say you go about sabotaging that Your your your co-works to get that that means that you're putting The value of that job over the value of people and relationships No, you're putting the health of your child and the survival of your marriage over co-workers Remember there were there were consequences that you're in danger of losing your job Which would cost you your marriage and the health of your child? perhaps Perhaps but but my experience bears out that when you engage in moral action Then my experience is is god goes to work and presents me with a better situation that I think that I would have By by by striving for that and damaging other people That's been my experience and so on that basis. I I say I I think I I would make the case that making a moral choice So it may not be the easier choice or it may be the what appears to be the riskier choice In the long run sets you in a better place puts you in a better place with the relationships But you you know because you know we we've all heard this story, you know If you're climbing the corporate ladder, you're going to see the same people on the way down that you did on the way out and that's true Do you remember the last time you were in a very competitive situation and and do you recall what your behavior was like in that very competitive situation So I'm I'm assuming you've created a life today where it's been a long time since you've been in a very competitive situation Where it felt like your very survival was at risk There have been times when I felt my survival is at risk and it's usually been an exaggerated You know, it's usually it's usually Catastrophizing it sort of falls into the category of what mark twain said. He said, you know In my life, I've suffered many terrible things A few of which actually happen You know, we tend to think things are going to be far worse Then they actually end up being That's something my my sponsor told me all the time says if you can accept the worst case scenario From the standpoint of just like from as a spiritual act of skin That's what happens. That's what happens. I can accept that. I don't have to be in this, you know turmoil around that Okay, most of the most of the time that that is in fact not what happens and most of the time that attitude Is what opens the door for what's right For me, that's been my experience. So You know The way I would look at that situation is if that's the right job for me Then I don't have to strive for it or struggle for it or damage other people to get it Even though those risks that you mentioned are there because My relationship with with god tells me that god will provide for me the things that I need and that has been the way I have lived and that is You know, that's the testimony I have I found that to be true and I found that to be true consistently over and over and over again Okay, uh, half collision says in the chat everyone has ethics till they get punched in the face And then just Randall super chats ten dollars. Thanks Josh screw relationships It's all about money and power by dogecoin and hold lol and then Josh says spiritual spiritual make that paper for the win ft w but uh Richard What in you is is a true self that would that would hold across all circumstances the best of your knowledge because I don't think I don't I agree with you. I don't think there is one in fact the truth is I'm nothing That's because you're going to be different in every situation Well, if you're different in every situation as I'm different in every situation Then moral character is meaningless because we're different in every situation So in some situations you're going to come out swinging with your fists in other situations You're going to be meek and mild other situations You're going to be the take charge charismatic leader in other situations You're going to be awkward and bumbling in other situations. You're going to be the smooth dude And that means that there's no morality. No, no, no, it doesn't mean there's no morality It means that there's no moral character for the individual because you're different Well, that's actually what you're suggesting That there is no morality. It's only the situation that matters that that's I think that's the implication of what you're saying I don't know that's what you mean No, there's no moral character for the individual because he's always going to be different. There's still morality now There's there's christian morality. There's there's jewish morality and And morality can be both absolute and situational because it's the situation that determines the absolute You would hold that lying is wrong and many christians in particular will hold that lying is always wrong But I think if I gave you an extreme situation where You know a man's you know running down the street with a machete, you know intent on hacking up You know some Kids and he asked which way did the kids go to me the situation dictates that the moral thing to do is to lie To that guy with with the machete So there's no contradiction in my understanding between ethics that are both determined by the situation So they're both situational and absolute If you believe in god you you try to do the right thing in every situation But what the right thing in every situation is going to depend on the situation? So I believe in god I believe that god would want me to lie to the man with the machete who's intent on doing harm to children Yeah, I I you know, that's that's a good it's a good example And you know quite frankly, there's plenty of examples of that in the bible Not that they're always commended, but but they're there and and so, you know, that is part of life. You're right That we do have You know, what is the greater good and I'd say saving the lives of children is probably You know the value of life in that case probably supersedes, you know, whether you're going to lie to someone who Is completely depraved at that moment in time So, yeah, there's no inherent difference between situation and absolute the situation determines the absolute you can still believe in god christianity judeism and The god says right and wrong, but also understand that the situation is going to determine You know, what is the moral thing to do? Well Now that's you're you're right And that brings up a very interesting You know area of that Is that, you know, most people read the read the bible like a rule book It's not it's not intended to be a rule book It's intended to engender exactly the kind of discussion and soul searching and situational Perception that you're talking about that's actually what it encourages now. It does have You know Very clear, you know guidelines as to, you know, what things what course you want to take and what course you don't want to take Okay But my experience is people who become dogmatic and take it as a set of rules tend to create more problems than the people who approach that with With humble inquiry like what's really going on here and what really needs to happen And and how do I apply that because you're right about one thing and I agree about one thing is that individuals and individual circumstances Are unique You know general business advice is almost never good for specific business problems And that's and I think that's what what often um religious people Fall into that trap is it well the bible says this and then just that's that's how it is and That really sort of short stops the real Thoughtful consideration and exploration that I think is really actually required Now, you know in the situation where you know, you have a guy a guy with a machete And he's trying to defend some kids and he says which way did the kids go? Well, oh, I don't know. I think they went that way and of course, you know z went a different way Okay, that That's subterfuge You know would be done in a moment. You wouldn't have time to consider that but you know, you could you could recognize that Lying to this guy is probably not as bad as letting those kids get killed And that's a moral choice Okay, here's here a couple of sentences from sherry turkle's book People are lonely. The network is seductive But if we are always on we may deny ourselves the rewards of solitude And I got to admit I leave an audible book running all night most of the times because I I have problems with Sleeping and so if I just go to bed, I will become Anxious and that will hurt my ability to sleep. So I just leave leave audible books running just all night And and just go in and out of sleep. And so So maybe she's she's writing about me. I mean here maybe I've got a problem It just seems to work for me better to have an audible book running Than to be alone with my thoughts my thoughts are like a dangerous neighborhood. I don't want to enter alone Any thoughts? I hear you on that I hear you on that Um, you know, I I think if I if I any takeaways from here is that You know surely sherry turkle has a perspective It's it's not the definitive. This is how it is. It's a perspective And and I think in some respects it's a useful perspective, but it's lacking in some things too And you know technology is here to stay it's not going away We're gonna have to deal with it You know men men learned how to how to control fire and all of our technology has kind of emerged out of out of Out of that capacity, which is it's a very interesting conversation in and of itself but I'm just looking for A way to kind of maybe wrap this up and kind of anchor it in something that's that's helpful Okay, I'll uh play an excerpt here. You won't hear it But you can just jump in whenever you gather your thought Let's let's do this. Listen. Let's let's let's keep that, you know I I want to just throw this out here immersed in simulation can be hard to remember All that lies beyond or even to acknowledge that everything is not captured by it. You're talking about, you know Different types of simulations whether that's with a robot whether that's going to be with immersive You know virtual reality technology and all those kind of things which are coming which we cannot avoid And I think and I think you're right And I very much agree with you that the misuse of technology is a symptom technology isn't at fault And I think that same thinking applies back to, you know, situational ethics the situation isn't isn't it fault It's what's going on inside of us that matters most And you know in any in any choice I make, you know, I have to be able to live with myself And you know, I make good choices and bad choices and I think part of acquiring wisdom Is is making is making choices and maybe making some bad ones Learning from those how to make better better decisions And then, you know being gentle with myself after I make some bad ones because I'm going to Okay, uh Richard, maybe you want to talk a little bit about your youtube channel what people can find there. I've linked to it. Um At this point I I'm I'm working with a group to to to launch my to launch the book that I've been working on um You know, I'm really sort of holding off doing anything new on on on my website or in my on my youtube channel Until I kind of get it get a handle on that um And that's that's you know, I'm starting that tomorrow. So I'm very excited about that but uh, I in the next few weeks I'll be starting to post some new Some new talks Okay, great. Well, it sounds like you need to roll so I might just solo stream for a little while So thank you Richard for taking the time to talk to me Did you have anything further you wanted to go on because I I think we touched on some parts of this book, but You know the the one thing I I I really uh That I think is important to to mention is that technology is as as as much as it is a problem It's also an incredible opportunity For us to grow as human beings And and the the essence of it is how do we hold and treat our humanity? And I think we've touched on that in a variety of different ways And so I'm I'm grateful for that conversation Okay, I'll just read a little bit more from her book We can heal ourselves by giving others what we most need That really speaks to me because I remember in therapy I would many many years ago I said to my therapist sometimes I go to synagogue and I wonder if anyone here Cares about me and my therapist had a great response. You care about anyone there and I didn't So yes, we can heal ourselves by giving other people what we most want and we live in an attention economy I mean we are constantly competing for attention And just giving giving people some attention can be both healing for oneself and for others any thoughts Well, you know, you you mentioned in in some of your earlier notes that you shared with me that You know, we get to be selective about, you know, who we pay attention to and that is that is probably a good thing to do Um, but I but I my experience is I have to be pretty intentional about that about where I where I place my attention who I place it with and um You know, it's important to to allocate time For for human interaction, but it's also good to have. I mean, I love I love technology I work for spring for 10 years and you know, I was I was a you know, cloud evangelists You know, everybody should go into the cloud and I and I believe it. I still believe people should do that I still think technology is is is a really Useful thing and it's and it's really good, but it it its usage really reflects who we are And I think that's that's where the work is and I think you nailed that when you said, you know, that's the The way we use technology is the symptom. It's not the problem That I agree. Yeah, and paying attention to people it can be really simple It would mean that when I hear a dramatic difference in the quality of your voice I I Pay attention to that go, you know Richard. What's going on? Your voice sounds strangled or you sound triumphant Or I just notice what what's going on with you It means that you notice what's going on with the people around you you walk into work And someone's like skipping down the hallway. It's like, oh, wow. It sounds like sarah You had a great weekend and then there's jeff who's just absolutely looking slumped and defeated And so he says hi and you say wow jeff it looks like you're going through a really tough time I mean just acknowledging what's going on with people Can can make all the difference in the world to them and it then also improves the quality of your life Yeah, well, I think that's uh, we call that the golden rule Treat other people the way you want to be treated. That's when life works Yeah, and it doesn't take a lot of effort It just means you get into an elevator with a stranger And there are things that are just obviously bouncing off you about that person And just a simple wow looks like you're having a tough day It can it can make such a difference and it also trains you to attune yourself to others which can't help but benefit you That is true Yeah, I I actually think that's probably a good place to to put a bookmark in and at this point I think this is kind of an ongoing discussion that we've been having and I and I and I so much enjoy it I so appreciate your your graciousness about doing this and letting me come on and and talk with you about this stuff Okay, richard. I'm gonna go on solo for a few minutes. Good to talk to you my friend. Take care You bet Take care now. Bye. Bye Okay, and we've got a super chat from Josh Randall. Keep it simple and focus on hose and money. Well It's context and situation, right? So there are absolutely times in your life when you should put money, you know as a top priority And there are times in life when you should focus on getting a spouse or starting with getting a girlfriend or even starting with with getting a date but What's going on inside of you is going to have a tremendous effect on your ability to get money and to get a woman so if if Your thoughts are not smooth You are much less likely to have success with money and with women Right. How are you when you're alone? Are your thoughts smooth? Are they herky jerky disconnected? Are you ill at ease, restless, irritable and discontented? And if you're restless irritable and discontented then distracting yourself by focusing on achieving money and women One, you're not going to be very successful And two, it's not going to cure the hole in your soul. If you've got a spiritual problem It needs a spiritual solution and if you are unable to maintain a smooth thought process when when you're on your own You're undoubtedly suffering from among other things very low emotional energy Why are you suffering from low emotional energy? Because your relationships the people you're interacting with are not building you up Some people get a tremendous amount done with their life and you wonder wow You know that person just seems switched on and they just go from triumph to triumph and they get 10 times as much done in a day as I do if I just think about what they get done in a day I'm absolutely exhausted. There's no way I could do what they do Well, what's going on with these super achievers? They're getting energy from all their interactions. They get up in the morning and they've got a vision for their life That gives them energy. They get up in the morning They love their spouse and they love their kids and that gives them energy. They Go to work and it's like hey jane And that that brief interaction. Uh, hey peter Hey sus what's going down? All their interactions are giving them energy. They go into a board meeting All right, and they they get energy from that board meeting This is compared to other people for whom almost all their interactions are draining them They wake up in the morning and they think I hate my spouse. I hate my life They stumble out to The kitchen and make themselves breakfast and they see their sullen surly kids and they think I hate my kids They have a neighbor next door. They see a neighbor through a window and they think I hate my neighbors And then they go to a job and they hate their job. They hate their boss. They hate the people they're working with All right, you're just losing energy from all those interactions But if you like your neighbors, you like your spouse, you like your kid, you like your co-workers You like your job. You're you're going to be filled with passion So we have to build lives where we are consistently replenishing our emotional energy and adding to it and you do that Two ways you're attuned to the other person. All right, so you're on the same wavelength All right when richard says something I'm listening to what he says and then so that what I'm saying is taking into account what he just said That that indicates to him that that he's important to me and that I'm paying attention to what he's saying All right, so you have to be attuned on the same wavelength with people and then you have to be in rhythm All right, richard and I aren't constantly talking over each other On the other hand, there aren't these huge long pauses In our conversation where it's like, oh, I just don't really have anything Okay, so you want to be in rhythm. So I speak he speaks you speak he speaks back and forth There should be there should be a rhythm to your interaction So when you you're attuned where you have a shared focus of attention, right? You're able to pull that off And then you're in rhythm Then you're going to get emotional energy from these interactions. This emotional energy will be building a bond All right, the more people you bond with and the tighter closer and deeper your bonds with other people The more energized you're going to feel because then you know that your life matters because you got people who depend on you You've got a spouse who depends on you. You've got friends who depend on you You've got a religious community that depends upon you. You've got 27 workers who depend upon you You have other people who are just acquaintances who looked you for inspiration What do we call people who are sources of energy for others? And this can even be people on a live stream who can be a source of energy for you We call those people charismatic, right charismatic people Pulsate with energy they vibrate with energy when you watch them listen to them interact with them talk to them You feel energized you have more emotional energy and as a result your own thinking process becomes more smooth Rather than disconnected and jerky, right people are able to do that for you provide you with that emotional energy We call them charismatic Dras says my thoughts are all about instagram booty accounts right now Richard is a good man like 40s lawyer get 40 out of federal prison Okay, looking at some of more of my notes on sherry turkle's book people are lonely The network is seductive, but if we're always on we may deny ourselves the reward of solitude So I admit there's not much time in my life where i'm not listening to something or reading something or doing something I don't spend a lot of time just lying back in in meditation or prayer I believe that in our cultural simulation the notion of authenticity is for us What sex was for the victorians threatened obsession to boo and fascination? Maybe for some people I don't see this as a generalization We can heal ourselves by giving others what we most need Well, yeah, simply take into account what's going on with someone else like josh randall He's incredibly horny right now. So josh, I I acknowledge your horniness What's the old story? a man had Yes, a man A man had a parrot who would only say one word the parrot would say horny And then at synagogue He had a friend his mate schmoll who had two parrots and these two parrots all they would do was pray back and forth and they would just recite the whole You know the whole book of to hillam the whole book of psalms Like these parrots these two holy parrots and they wore their You know, they had uh the jewish regalia and they would just pray all day. They would just recite to hillam all day so Our man with the parrot who says horny. Hey You know, maybe I could introduce my parrot to your parrots and the holiness that your parrots have got going on Maybe that will rub off on my parrot because I'm kind of embarrassed that all he does is say the word horny And so he brought his horny parrot over to the two holy parrots and they put them in the cage together And and what happened the two parrots said Ah our dreams have finally come true All right jewish humor Back to sherry turkle we psychologically program not only to nurture what we love but to love what we nurture. Yes Yes, it's not only that we nurture what we love but by nurturing and taking care of something we love Freeze up our love technology ties us up as it promises to free us up Connectivity technologies was promised to give us more time But as the cell phone and smartphone eroded the boundaries between work and leisure all the time in the world was not enough Even when we're not at work. We experience ourselves as on-call pressed We want to edit out complexity and cut to the chase. Well, I think it depends on the person I mean, I certainly don't feel this Right. I don't feel like I'm always at work or I'm always on call I mean, I often have three days of yomto three days of jewish holidays You don't get a phone call or a text or anything from me So all sorts of people like will call me email me text me They don't get a response from me for for up to three days and sometimes their panties get in a knot But what can I do her sham gave me the commandments? I I perform the commandments the commandments say no use of certain technologies on Shabbat and yomto so I can't can't get back to you but if someone's you know or Twisted out of shape because I haven't gotten back to them in three days because I'm fulfilling God's commandments I mean that anxiety is on him Right. That's something wrong with him. And if you have your phone set up so that you're getting work emails unnecessarily Or or you're getting unnecessary calls then there's something wrong with you. I 99% of the time I have my phone. I do not disturb Right. My phone never pings vibrates and rings except for very rare occasions So it's not just technology that starts out, you know promising us You know tremendous freedom and then ends up As a strangling suffocating straight jacket. I mean every new development starts out that way you get a car It's like wow now I've got you know feels like limitless freedom And then the car starts having problems and you have to Pay for the mechanic to fix it and what started out as a massive liberation It turns into a suffocating straight jacket think about the alt right some people discover the alt right It's like oh, wow. This is really freeing. We can say all these things We weren't able to say before and we can be edgy and we've got all these new perspectives And we don't have to go along with the mainstream media so people's first experience of the alt right is Liberation and then fairly quickly it turns into a suffocating straight jacket And so they only see the world through these certain narrow prisms that just strangle them other people get into Socialism starts out as like oh, this is amazing major liberation then turns into a suffocating straight jacket So everything like some people discover pornography. It's like oh, yeah pornography like now You know life is richer. It's more complex. I'm now finally understanding. I'm knowing I've got a deep sense of knowing about what really goes on on the innards of a woman and Starts out use of porn or the use of alcohol the use of cocaine It starts out as a liberation or you might discover nachos and pizza and beer And it's like oh, this is fantastic. I'm going to have nachos or pizza and beer You know several nights a week starts out as a liberation Then you may put on weight and it becomes a suffocating straight jacket So every new development that starts out as a liberation it very quickly turns into a suffocating straight jacket. There's no There's no technological or other political or social or cultural even religious development that's going to free you right freedom Comes when you become Centered and at ease with yourself and then when you're at ease with yourself that will radiate to other people I think I'm fairly at ease with myself I think when you turn into the 40 show That you sense that I'm at ease. I'm at ease with my imperfection I'm at ease with you know shows only getting 11 live viewers like it doesn't ruin my day Back to sherry turkle a few years ago at a dinner party in paris I met ellen an ambitious elegant young woman in her early 30s thrilled to be working her dream job in advertising Once a week. She'd call her grandma in philadelphia using skype Before skype ellen's calls to her grandmother were costly and brief But with skype the calls are free and give the compelling sense that the other person is present skype is almost real-time video League that's what it is ellen could now call more frequently twice a week and I stay on the call for an hour Should have been rewarding instead when I met her ellen was unhappy She knew that her grandmother was unaware that skype allows surreptitious multi-tasking Grandmother could see ellen's face on the screen, but not her hands ellen admitted to me I do my emails during the calls not really paying attention to our conversation ellen's multi-tasking removed her to another place She felt her grandmother was talking to someone who's not really there during their skype conversations ellen and her grandmother Were more connected than they'd ever been before but at the same time each was alone ellen felt guilty and confused She knew that her grandmother was happy even if their intimacy was now for ellen another task among multi-task Well, it sounds like ellen's doing a nice deed like ellen wasn't calling her grandmother primarily for ellen's own pleasure So the problem's not the tech here. The problem is in ellen's thinking Strikes me. She's doing something lovely and nice and respectful for her grandmother She has no reason to feel guilty about multi-tasking It might be a wonderful world where grandkids just love talking with their grandparents. That's not reality I mean, there are a lot of people who like to talk to me who I am not interested in talking to There are a lot of people who want to hang out with me who I don't want to hang out with There are lots of people who I would like to talk to or there are people I'd like to hang out with who are not interested in talking or hanging out with me So this has nothing to do with tech right here's sherry talk off 78 michael tutuzos who's the head of the laboratory for computer science held a meeting That was a several-day retreat at end of cut house our conference center In which he assembled the the greatest minds in computer science really at the time To figure out the question of what people might want to do with what was then called Home computers the word personal computers really hadn't come into the lexicon yet Now these were the first computers that you didn't have to build These were the first computers that you could actually buy And these great computer scientists got together I was invited to the meeting because I had begun my studies of computers and people They got together and they kind of gave it their best shot Somebody suggested the children might want to learn to program Listen to respectfully maybe Somebody suggested that we would want to put our um address books on computers and People laughed and said well actually Paper and pencil little books paper was perfect for that because most people didn't have a database They had a couple of names and addresses. So that didn't make a lot of sense Some people suggested well a calendar And actually people said well no, I don't like using the computer from my calendar. I really find little File of facts is much better. You can flip through. It's much more practical I tell this story because I think it's very important to know to remember That really not that long ago We were trying to figure out How we would keep computers busy And you know now we know that once we Networked with each other once computers were our portal Okay question in the chat from Josh Randall What if I don't have any substance addictions, but I still obsess on insta booty accounts The problem is not the obsession with insta booty accounts. This is not really your your best self here It's filling a need in you, right? The the the beauty and the tantalizing sexuality of these insta booty accounts Is meeting a need for excitement, right? We are wired to connect You're obsessed with insta booty accounts because of a lack of meaningful relationships in your life All right, we are wired to connect. You're not sufficiently connected Ago you have to connect with something so you're connecting with your fantasies About you know these insta booty accounts But that's just a manifestation. You could just as easily become obsessed with gaming Or with hardcore pornography Or gambling, right? But these are all just manifestations of a lack of ease with yourself because you're not sufficiently connected. I mean we need To To be moving moving through life in a smooth and graceful manner all right, so When we're getting emotional energy from our interactions where it changes our posture it changes our voice it changes Our eye contact changes our manner and it changes the way we think we will think in in smoother More contented ways and we won't need the distraction of insta booty accounts So Josh you need more emotional energy in your life, bro How do you get more emotional energy in your life? You become attuned to the people who are important to you And you get into rhythm with them and through those interactions You gain emotional energy and that smooths out your thinking process and adds a degree of smoothness and grace to your voice And to the way you carry yourself And carries out carries on it throughout your life. It gives you the fuel to do the things that you need to do So you don't have to try to fill up the emptiness inside with insta booty accounts What's wrong with the bitcoin space? all right So What's wrong with bitcoin is that most of the claims made for it? Uh, just simply not true Right, it it doesn't function as a currency. It's not, you know, super safe and easy and uh It's just that most of the claims made for it are exaggerated So I don't know many smart people who are deeply into bitcoin I know a lot of really stupid people are into bitcoin and dogecoin other cyber currencies So when investments are primarily I see being carried out by people who are not so bright that I tend to be Suspicious of cyber currencies. So I never thought deeply about cyber currencies until about a month ago and uh, now I think they're just the equivalent of You know just bizarre investments or investments in art or you know in children's toys or tulips Let me let me explain something to you right now. Okay. Here's a ten dollar bill This is garbage. This is garbage your people in South Africa. You have your ran, right? That's going to zero That's going to zero. This is going to zero two euros are going to zero the yen's going to zero The chinese currency is going to zero. It's all going to zero against bitcoin You don't understand that yet. You're going to be impoverished. You're going to be on the street You're going to be begging. You're going to be out of business. You're going to be toast Max, do you know that it's a criminal offense to tear up? Do you know that with the bitcoin I have? I can buy any freaking senator or congressman. I want I make the laws. He who has the bitcoin makes the laws, right? We're not going to just sit around and let them goddamn fucking tell us what to do We've got the capital. We make the laws. We've got the bitcoin. We don't we got it. They don't Do you understand? That's what this guy sounds like I fucking my obsession fucking a slice of piece of the fucking shit I piece of shit Okay So the chat says that's max keiser. It's a shtick to get publicity back to sherry turkle's book in Corporations among friends within academic departments people readily admit they would rather leave a voicemail or send an email than talk face to face Well, sometimes it's more appropriate to send an email leave a voicemail All right There's nothing wrong with not wanting to talk face to face with some people about some things I mean some people I would rather talk to face to face Then there are other people who aren't that important to me who i'm not looking to have an eye-doubt relationship with And uh, some people are just creepy and dangerous and I want to be as removed from them as possible Cherry writes when part of your life is lived in virtual places It can be second life computer game a social networking site a vex relationship develops between what is true and what is true here true in simulation But we're always different people in different situations. What is true here is true even without technology There's nothing inherently vexing about this Cherry writes it even such simple pleasures bring compulsions that take me by surprise I checked my email first thing in the morning before going to bed at night Well, you've developed a bad habit like some people only check their email once a day I've come to learn that informing myself about new professional problems and demands It's not a good way to start around my day, but my practice unhappily continues You need more emotional energy sherry Admitted my ongoing irritation with myself to a friend woman in her 70s Who has meditated on a biblical reading every morning since she was in her teens She confesses is ever more difficult to begin her spiritual exercises before she checks her email The discipline to defer opening or inbox is now part of a devotional gesture And she too invites insomnia by checking her email every night before turning in So I usually wait about two and a half hours every weekday morning before checking my emails And it's not that hard. I got my first cell phone in 1997 I got my first smartphone in 2007 and I feel that these tools reduce the quality of my life My tech doesn't run me. I run my tech. I've really had anyone complain about my use of them I have occasionally had women checking their cell phones when I'm talking with them And I just usually walk away in response Once we we remove ourselves from the flow of physical messy untidy life And both robotics and network life do that We've become less willing to get out there and take a chance Song that becomes became popular in YouTube in 2010 Do you want to date my avatar ends with the lyrics? And if you think I'm not the one log off log off and we'll be done Look, I didn't see normal people going this route again. This is primarily a symptom not a cause In this new regime a train station like an airport a cafe or a park is no longer a communal space But a place of social collection people come together but do not speak to each other How much were people how much were strangers talking to each other in the old regime? I suspect there's been a difference like I've gone into a park and start talking with strangers I once went into a park and I picked up these two men I didn't know they were gay dudes. I was just in a park. I was very lonely I was when I had pretty severe chronic fatigue syndrome I was living with my sister in brisbane, australia and a couple of dudes in the park And I just started talking with them and then I you know, I brought them back to my place and and We were sitting around the table having a conversation and I found out they were gay Well, one of the dudes was doing a phd the university of Queensland in ethno musicology And it was very nice a chinese easy kind of dude and uh, like Was uh, it was a good bloke All right, so, you know, we all live and learn look look tell me you've never Picked up gay dudes in the park and brought them home Like we've all made mistakes. All right. It's the easiest thing in the world Like you can You can just be going for a walk and the next thing you know You're picking up two gay dudes and bringing them home like we've all made that mistake And I don't judge myself. I still love and accept myself Even though I may have misjudged that situation. Well, I didn't even misjudge it One of them was an ethno musicologist man. He was getting a phd When people have phone conversations in public spaces their sense of privacy is sustained by the presumption that those around them will treat them Not only as anonymous but as if absent Well, yeah, technology and other new developments allows boorish people new ways to be boorish Right, this is sherry tuckle To being with each other We really don't have to worry about keeping computers busy They keep us busy It's kind of as though We are their killer app so How does that work? We're on our email our games our virtual worlds. We text each other at family dinners While we jog While we drive we take our lives into our hands to do that even with our Kids in the backseat of the car. Look, we've all walked through a park and Ended up gay and fighting hiv like We've all done it like we're all gay and we've all got aides and we're all dying of AIDS I mean, it's just It's just one of those things that happens to men is they you know go for walks I mean, what do you want people to do? Just stay home car? We text each other at funerals Um, we go to the park and we push swings with one hand and we scroll through our messages with each other A lot of my research is observing families and you know, this is what I see the children who I interview Say that their parents read them harry potter again with that right hand reading them the book and the Left hand scrolling through the messages on the blackberry Children describe that moment at school pickup They'll never tell you that they care But they describe that moment where they come out of school You know looking for that moment of eye contact And instead of that moment of eye contact with a parent who after all has shown up At school pickup that parent is looking at the iphone looking at the smartphone and is reading and is reading mail um So from the moment this generation of children Met technology It was the competition And now they've grown up And today's teenagers this generation of children Who've grown up with technology being the competition um really, I mean that's pathetic if Kids are having to compete with smartphones to get their parents attention and I have not seen that In the psychoanalytic tradition one speaks about narcissism not to indicate people who love themselves But about a personality so fragile that it needs constant support It cannot tolerate the complex demands of other people but tries to relate to them by distorting who they are And spitting off what it needs and what it can use so the narcissistic self gets on with others By dealing only with their made to measure representations these representations are all that the fragile self can handle We can easily imagine the use of inanimate Companions to such a self because a robot can be sculpted to meet one's needs But a fragile person can also be supported by selected and limited contact with people Say the people on a cell phone favorites list in a life of texting and messaging Those on that contact list can be made to appear almost on demand You can take what you need and move on and if not gratified you can try someone else And she concludes in treatment symptoms disappear because they become irrelevant Patients become more interested in looking at what symptoms hide The ordinary thoughts and experiences of which they are the strangulated expression they Now have their turn to live in a culture of distraction And what do they tell me they tell me that they sleep with their cell phones They begin by saying well, I use it as an alarm clock and then they come clean and they say well Actually, it's not just because I use it and it's an alarm clock They want to sleep with it just in case they get a message or they want to communicate And then they say that even when their phones are put away Let's say relegated to their school locker Um, they know when they have a message or a call they feel that kind of they can tell at long distance That they have a message or a call they say they can just sense it Indeed adults as well as teens report that they feel their phones vibrating Even when they are not this is a well-known phenomena. It's called the phantom ring. It's been reported all over When you take our phones away from us We become anxious We become impossible really Modern technology has become like a phantom limb It is so much a part of us So what is the arc of the story that I want to tell Only 15 years ago looking at the early internet. I felt an incredible sense of optimism I saw a place for identity experimentation. I called it an identity workshop For trying out aspects of self that were hard to experiment Okay, so she isn't She doesn't recommend that you get real freaky there with that experimentation like there's some things guys You should not try there are some things. Let's just put it that you should keep in the closet now Due to overwhelming demand I need to return to a video that I played on friday from soviet communism to russian gangster capitalism through the collapse so What i'm going to do here is introduce a an analytical schema From the social sciences. This is actually from a famous economist by the development economist by the name of Albert Hirschman who published this book exit voice and loyalty in 1970 And he developed a framework for thinking about what happens when As you can tell from the subtitle firms organizations states Decline how do people respond to decline? And he the framework he developed I think is I think this is if you if you read no other book in the social sciences before You graduate or this is certainly one of the two or three books You should definitely read and we will use Hirschman's framework at various points in the course And so what what is he said? Well If you think about yourself in a in a declining organization, there are three things you can do One is you can leave exit Two is you can complain and try and get it changed voice Three you can try to fix it yourself. You believe in the cause and you want to make it better and a lot of Hirschman's analysis says that What mix of exit voice and loyalty people engage in is determined by the costs of those things So for instance if you think about a public company If you're a shareholder in a public company And you don't like the way it's being run You could just sell your shares and buy shares in a different company that you like better, right? So you don't have much incentive To go to shareholders meetings and trying to get Get the company you maybe think it's got too much debt or something you just buy shares in a company that it's less That that's all you need to do just exit very low cost of exit So people are not going to engage in voice now, of course you might care about the company It might be an ostensibly a green company And you might be holding the shares in the company because of your commitment to green energy Then you might be feel loyalty to the company And you will want to try and get it changed Um think about yourself as a worker working for a company If you don't like the way the company is being run Unlike a shareholder you can't just Pick pick up and leave you've got you know you live in this town You've got your family your kids are in the schools and so forth the costs of exit for you are very high So you're more likely to engage in voice you're going to go to meetings You're going to complain you might form a union you're going to do things or join You're going to do things to get Get the company to change its ways So his book is an analysis of the ways in which exit voice and loyalty might be Complementary in some circumstances and might be Competitors in some circumstances for the ways in which people respond to the decline of organizations So the first thing to say about um the soviet union In the 1980s and 90s is there was a substantial decline almost disappearance Of loyalty among both the elites and the citizens and I Got a firsthand view of this in march of 1991. There was a yell Okay, so this is an important book. He says one of the top three most important books in the social sciences The book came out in 1970 exit voice and loyalty and rob henderson Wrote a review of this book Exit voice and loyalty responses to decline in firms organizations And states and is written by an economist here Albert hushman So I want to talk just a little bit about this book Invited by the communist party of the soviet union to a conference in moscow Actually at this the week before the referendum that I mentioned to you earlier And we you know, we had been impressed by gorbachev and so forth But we we didn't really Have much knowledge about I certainly was no expert on the soviet union and mostly other people The delegation were not and you know, we had this stereotypical picture of Of The kgb shadowing us around and telling us what to do And we needed to be careful and so on And the first thing we noticed was widespread Evidence of brazen corruption I'll give you just two two examples We were all afraid of what the kgb people might be doing to us The first kgb person I ran into was trying to sell me currency at black market exchange rates And then secondly I went to a reception And Somebody came up to me with a translator and the translator said this gentleman wants to speak to you and he said Professor Shapiro, I understand you are South African. This is 1991 Okay, it's before the collapse of apartheid. It's the beginning of It's the beginning of the collapse of apartheid in South Africa Mandela is going to is being released from prison and so forth But the apartheid regime was still there and it was not clear how it was going to play out And so this person speaks in russian, which I don't I speak a little bit now, but I spoke none then and basically the translator says This gentleman wants to know how to Make if you can facilitate this making how our connection with the government of South Africa because He has access to weapons, which he would like to sell to them We regard apartheid as a domestic matter. We don't care What's going on in the country, but I can sell all kinds of weapons including nuclear weapons Which might have been nonsense, but this is quite, you know, this actually Okay, so you're asking wow, this sounds like an amazing book. Give me a brief overview of exit voice and loyalty responses to decline in firms organizations and states such a sexy sexy title so albert hershman Delineates people's options when they are no longer satisfied with their employer organization lover or country So there are two key options exit and voice Exit means leaving Going elsewhere voice means expressing your discontent and trying to improve the organization So under what conditions will the exit option prevail over the voice option vice versa? So generally exit is used in economics and business voice is used in politics Right, so you can leave and I guess turn in your citizenship and become a citizen somewhere else But generally people don't do that So in business a dissatisfied customer of one product can purchase another that's exit a voter dissatisfied with politics expresses their unhappiness by you know by voting or by which is I guess they can exit or No, that's voice. So you you vote but you vote for someone else or you you write letters to the editor you make a Video, all right. So an unhappy customer can call a firm or stage a boycott So that's voice. So voice is messier than exit voice is an attempt to change rather than escape from an objectionable situation So there's a whole continuum of voice ranging from faint grumbling to violent rioting The realm of politics where voice is most likely to be used There can be negative it returns to too much voice So violent protests such as with black lives matter and then teeth are tend to reduce support for those social movements Now for exit to work is a mechanism of Recuperation from decline is ideal for an organization have a mixture of alert and inert members The exit of alert members provides feedback to the firm people are leaving. Maybe we should figure out why And inert members So people just allow you to keep banging their credit card every month They provide the firm with time and financial cushion for the recuperation to take place So people's decisions to exit or not are often determined by the effectiveness of voice So if you feel like The situation people will listen to you might be more likely to use voice You don't feel like you'll be able to make a difference. Then you're just exit So the presence of exit reduces the use of voice. So if you leave you no longer have any voice Now exit tends to accelerate decline because those who exit first are usually the most quality conscious and resourceful members So if you feel like your neighborhood is tipping the smartest people leave first This is the way that public schools deteriorate. So the most Education conscious parents with the most means pull their kids out of public school send them to private schools Now public schools might respond by trying to improve their schools But this response is going to be less effective because the public schools most concerned and affluent parents have left The people who care about a product They they're often going to be those who will be the first to exit in response to deterioration They have options. Why should they stay? So the exit of capable and affluent people will often paralyze The voice that could have been provided and this applies to dating as well. So attractive and interesting people Are much more ready to use exit over voice, right? So the more someone's got something going on with their life the more That they have resources the more that they feel their sexual marketplace value The more likely they are to just exit over voice. Oh, let's talk this out So if you're a dysfunctional person, if you're an under earner, if you're an alcoholic If you're addicted to gaming probably have no idea how many people have simply exited your life Because they just didn't want to deal with your nourish kind. So successful capable People don't want to put up with under earners with anti social types with losers So attractive interesting capable successful people they spot as soon as they spot that someone's a loser They just get the hell out of there and minimize all interactions with that person And if you grew up in a bad neighborhood, you're probably never going to move back there if you're a capable person Right capable curious people born into bad surroundings usually opt for exit And for voice to work, they may well have to first go to graduate school, right? They go to graduate school. They're surrounded by similar people and they really want to go home So as travel has become easier and more affordable More capable people are exiting their communities in search of fulfilling economic romantic and social opportunities So those who have the greatest influence on quality are more likely to leave at the slightest deterioration which in turn tends to lead to further deterioration which leads to more exits So as opposed to living in a crumbling neighborhood, your community used to be beautiful But now it's turned into a shantytown. Well, if you have the means You're going to get out of there those who value cleanliness safety good schools They're usually going to be the first to move out of a neighborhood that's Exhibiting any signs of decline. So then the neighborhood loses its most quality members And the neighborhood really goes to pot So people with resources people with social mobility people are capable and successful They are much more likely to use exit over voice losers are much more likely to complain, right? So think about Those subgroups are always complaining Versus those subgroups who are successful who probably don't complain as much. They just get the hell out So loyalty is usually irrational Right. So the reason that you're staying is that, you know, you feel incredibly loyal So the more loyal a person is the less likely they are to exit And the likelihood of voice increases with a person's loyalty Devotion to an organization or to a relationship to a community or a school Suppresses exit energizes voice people with a deep attachment to a relationship or community or school A job will search for ways to make themselves influential to amplify the power of their voice Now exit is very much an american tradition. So americans have historically favored exit over voice So america was largely people by people who ran away from europe United states owes its existence to millions of people choosing exit So political scientist louis hart said the men in the 17th century fled to america from europe were keenly aware of the oppression of europe But they were revolutionaries with a difference in the fact of their feeling There's no minor fact for it is one thing to stay at home and fight It is another to leave it far behind There's one thing to try to establish liberalism in the old world And it is another to try to establish it in the new so in a real sense physical flight is the american Substitution for the european experience of social revolution. So why haven't we had revolutions in america because americans get up and move All right americans generally speaking prefer the neatness of exit over the messiness and heartbreak of voice That has persisted through our national history Why raise your voice and why get into trouble when you can just quietly extricate yourself from the situation So the traditional american idea of social mobility, right the successful individual who begins at the bottom Then leaves his group leaves his community as he rises in social class And the exit by capable people weakens the power of voice for those who leave they leave behind Exit is not taken for the purpose of gaining more influence Quite the opposite people exit when they feel like they no longer have any influence So as conditions in a society improve Their scope for deterioration increases. So it's the penalty of progress The better things get the worst things can get because the society advances has a longer way to fall So economic progress positively correlates with latitude for deterioration Which means that more people feel they must make the crucial decision voice or Exit with in the physical real and all of this happens and all of this is still wondrous But what I didn't see coming And I like to tell my students call me not Preciant what I didn't see coming and what we have now Is that mobile connectivity that world of devices? Always on and always on us Would mean that we would be able to basically bail out of the physical real at any time To go to all of the other places and spaces That we have available to us And that we would want to One man I interviewed who plays with his And Robert says look think of all those wonderful women you're missing out on What I like about women in their 50s is that right at the get go They tell you where you rank below their kids below their dogs below their friends below their Other family below their job and below their career. That's a cheerful thought to end on. Thank you