 Welcome to the Dr. Genry podcast. Time and time again women have told me that their doctor doesn't listen to them. And for women having babies that's just the half of it. In a recent World Health Organization survey one in six women reported experiencing mistreatment such as verbal abuse, discrimination, and having their requests for help ignored during childbirth. And the rates of women of color being mistreated are actually especially high. Tennis player Serena Williams ignored health concerns related to the birth of her daughter is just one example of this epidemic. I mean Serena Williams concerns were ignored. Of course this dilemma can do serious damage not just from the physical standpoint but from an emotional one too. My guest today says it's become increasingly normal for women to feel unsupported disempowered and even traumatized when they give birth. And she's working to help change that. In just a moment I'll be speaking with writer and activist Millie Hill. Millie Hill is the founder of the Positive Birth Movement a global network of prenatal support groups formed through social media with the aim of improving childbirth. She's also the author of the 2017 book The Positive Birth Book. In her latest book which is out just now, Give Birth Like a Feminist, she answers questions such as why should society advocate care about women having a positive birth experience? And why should women expect or demand more from their birth? And why isn't a healthy baby and a healthy mom equally as important for our health care system? Today we'll discuss the imbalance of power in the delivery room and how the health care industry and society as a whole needs a serious overhaul when it comes to pregnancy and birth. We'll also discuss how women can take control of their births and how people around them can show their support. So partners, boyfriends, husbands and brothers, you want to listen to this too. Millie, it's great to have you on the program and thanks for joining us from across the pond. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's wonderful to be here. So in your book, you share your experience giving birth with your first child. What did you take away from that experience? Well, it was a bit of a mixed bag for me. But I think I was a bit traumatized by the experience, a bit shell shocked. I needed a bit of time to reflect afterwards and process what had happened. I spent quite a lot of the first days and weeks of motherhoods going over and over what had happened and processing it. And I guess, you know, what I took away was that all of the preparation I'd done in advance hadn't kind of prevented me from ending up with my feet in stirrups. And I'd wanted to have this kind of positive, empowered experience. And it kind of like didn't quite work out for me. So I just yeah, I did feel really disappointed. I felt sad, but physically damaged. And I guess what I took away from it is that there's more to a good birth and simply getting out of it alive, because myself and my baby were well and healthy. But it wasn't everything wasn't really right in my world at that time. So what about that experience? Were you unprepared for? I mean, did you go through here in America? You know, you take Lamaze classes and you go you get coaching in the birth experience. But obviously, that didn't prepare you for what you actually experienced. Yeah, I think it's a complex sort of mixed bag. I think a society kind of had already prepared me for birth even before I started preparing for birth by giving me very negative expectations and a lot of fear and anxiety around what birth was going to be like, which I tried to then counter as a pregnant woman by doing reading and preparation. But I think it was kind of in there from a very early age, it's kind of like fear and dread and, you know, cultural messages that I'd received. And, you know, and I think then, you know, no matter what preparation you do, you then go into a birth system that isn't necessarily set up to support women's physiology and to support women during birth in the way that they need supporting. So it's a complicated set of situations, circumstances. But I think really it's about having confidence in yourself. And then the system having confidence in you as a woman and your ability to give birth. So what about that experience, you know, spurred you to become an advocate for women's rights before, during and after the giving birth? Well, I think that experience and then my second birth experience, which was a very positive kind of empowering birth at home, both sort of really played a part in, you know, my thinking. But also hearing the birth stories of other women really spurred me on. You know, family, friends, people at the local mother and baby group, every woman that I spoke to seemed to have a similar kind of disempowered narrative. And that really spurred me on more. And the thing that really got me was what I now call the language of permission, which is, you know, women talking about their birth stories in terms of what they were allowed or not allowed to do. I heard that in so many women's birth stories, it had been part of my own first birth story. And I just kind of thought as a feminist and a modern woman of the 21st century, what is going on here, where women are talking about birth in terms of what they are allowed and not allowed to do and always being the permission seekers rather than the permission givers in the birth room. So give me an example, obviously, so we now have two totally different experiences. One sounds like a typical hospital setting. And then your second child was obviously a home birth. What what happened in that space that was so different? In other words, what got you to doing it a completely different way the second time around? I think a few different things. One of the things was the quality of the support that I sort of called in for the second birth. And another thing was just a change in my own mindset. I realized after the first baby that when I was pregnant for the second time, I realized that I was actually definitely going to have to give birth. Whereas I think in my first pregnancy, I was kind of keeping my fingers crossed that maybe there'll be some other option. So I kind of faced facts in the second pregnancy. I forced myself to watch birth films, which I wasn't able to do in my first pregnancy, because I was so terrified. And that really helped me. I can remember in particular watching one film of a woman giving birth in a birth pool. It was quite dark and dimly lit. And she was just there was nobody else in the frame in the picture. And she was just very quietly sort of rocking and moving in the water. And then occasionally sort of groaning and then suddenly pop up, you know, up through the water came this baby. And that was really transformative for me. I'd never seen a birth like that. I'd always seen your kind of like very stereotypical one born every minute woman in distress in a hospital kind of birth. And that was the frame of reference I had. So I kind of like I did some work around changing my own expectations and frame of reference and really facing up to my fears. But also I got some midwives in the UK. In the UK, we have midwives called independent midwives, and they tend to work outside of the system, they're still qualified midwives, but they were just amazing. They just came in and brought with them a very different energy, a real confidence in me. So it was a combination of those two things, I think. So had you started the positive birth movement before your second birth? Or was that a combination of after that birth? No, it was after that birth. So birth was something I was thinking about more and more. I was writing about it because I do sort of write and blog and that kind of thing. So I was kind of talking to more and more women and writing. And then I did some training as a birth doula. I don't know if you know about doulas, have you had some doulas discussing on your program, what they do, but it's just like a kind of special birth companion, not a medical person, just somebody to be with the woman when she's having a baby. So I was getting more and more interested and involved in birth. And it was at that point after my second baby that I thought, well, maybe I could have a group at my house where women came to just talk to each other about birth rather than like an antenatal class. Maybe we could just have this kind of like circle of women who just listen to each other, listen to birth stories, and inform each other through their words. And then because social media was quite big around that time, it was becoming bigger and bigger, especially Facebook, I thought, oh, I wonder if we could kind of like have other groups like this and then link them up somehow through a kind of social media umbrella and everybody could kind of kind of power up because there would be these other lines of communication beyond the immediate world. And so I had this idea and I just kind of floated it on the internet and it just snowballed immediately and became huge and it's been growing and gathering size ever since. So Emily, give me a brief description because perhaps a lot of our listeners and viewers don't know this. What is a positive birth experience like? What does it look like? What does it feel like? Well, I think it's different for different women, you know, so you can't necessarily say there's one, you can't have one description for a positive birth experience, but the common denominators when you speak to women tend to be that women are where they want to be, which is different for different women, women are where they feel safe, and women feel in control, women feel powerful, and they feel respected, and they feel listened to. But that can take place anywhere from, as we said earlier, the ocean to the operating theater and everywhere in between. So it's not about where you are, it's about how you're being treated and how you feel. And for me, you know, I just felt, you know, and for a lot of women that I've spoken to, for me, that positive experience did come from feeling that power of my body, you know, and feeling how strong I was because I was actually doing it and kind of nailing it if you know what I mean. And so yeah, natural birth in a birth pool was a really positive experience for me, but for other people that may not be what they're after, and you know, as long as people are where they want to be, and they feel they're listened to and respected, then that is, that is their positive birth. That's perfect. You know, in your book, you talk that giving, you know, giving birth is a feminist issue that nobody is talking about. So, you know, why do you think that is? Because obviously, you've, you know, you boomed on social media. Why isn't this as big an issue as it ought to be? I think it's a complicated mixture of reasons. I think, you know, women's bodies have a long history of being subjugated in all areas. But then what happens with birth is that we throw into the mix this presence of an unborn baby, which because of a kind of mixture of patriarchy and religion, it kind of often means that society feels that they can legitimately prioritize the baby over the woman. The woman is just a vessel. We have a history of thinking of women in these terms of the woman as a vessel or a container for that baby. And then you get into the mix of that. The idea that being a good mother somehow involves sacrificing your own needs, your own identity, etc. So then what happens in modern birth is we get these phrases coming out like, you know, leave your dignity at the door, you know, that a woman has to accept any treatment in the name of safety in birth because a healthy baby is all that matters. Women are told this frequently at trips of the tongue around the birth conversation. So women hear this phrase, a healthy baby is all that matters. And I think women very often feel silenced by that. They want to raise concerns. They want to complain about the maternity care. They want to ask for things to be different. But doing so somehow positions them as the selfish mother, you know, who cares more about herself than about her baby. So I think that's the main reason why we have a sort of lack of dialogue around birth as a feminist issue. Also, obviously, birth is an exclusively female experience. And so we then have the issue that feminism has been about equality. And so we've, you know, we tend to feminists tend to gravitate towards areas where, you know, we can have conversations about equality, whereas in birth that's a bit more complicated, isn't it? Because men don't do it. So I think there's a few things, a few reasons preventing the conversation. But I think when you actually talk to other women about why it's a feminist issue, which for me essentially means women are not getting a good deal out of this experience and we need to have a conversation about how it can be improved, then it's obvious that that it is a feminist issue and that it needs our attention. So when you say it's a feminist issue, I think what you're saying is that, you know, you can give birth in any setting and in any way, whether it's an elective caesarean section and a private hospital, to free birth in the middle, in the ocean, for instance. And, you know, talk me through that. How do you advise people to take control of this situation? Because clearly in the United States as well, so many of these decisions I want to get into that are taken, the control is taken away from the pregnant mother. Yep. And it's it's kind of the same in the UK as well. And I think a lot of women don't realize that they have the legal right to be in control of what happens to them in birth and that they are the key decision maker. They have the right to be at the center of the decision making and to be the person who calls the shots. Probably for some of the reasons I've just mentioned as well about, you know, like I said, positioning yourself as the bad mother because you have, you know, desires needs once as well as the the baby. But yeah, it's, you know, giving birth as like a feminist just means being aware that you have those choices in those rights and that you're allowed to care about birth as an experience that's important to you in your life. I've always been really passionate about the message with the positive birth movements as well, that it's not about prescribing one kind of birth. I know I've had a couple of babies at home myself in a birth pool, but it doesn't mean everybody has to do that. It's really about women knowing that they can choose what feels right for them and have that sense of entitlement and a knowledge of how they deserve to be treated. It's not about holding up one kind of birth as better than another kind of birth. Yeah, I want to dive into that a lot because I've had a number of experiences with my patients and advocating for them during their birth process, which really, for lack of a better word, pissed me off because I had to go against obstetricians who were taking this woman in a direction she clearly did not want to go. And I actually, we'll get into that. And actually, I just got back from a meeting called Brilliant Minds in Stockholm, Sweden. And one of the presentations was with a woman who was one of the first to receive a uterus transplant and has successfully gone on to have a child with a transplanted uterus. She actually she was born interestingly enough without a uterus. It's a rare congenital condition. And she was told, you know, you can't have kids. Sorry. And she kind of accepted that. And then she fell in love and she, you know, told her husband, look, you know, I'm sorry, I can't, you know, have a child. And he says, that's ridiculous. Of course you can have a child in this day and age. Why can't you? And she actually found a donor for a uterus, an older woman who was a friend of hers who was 60 years old and didn't need hers anymore. And I mean, it was a it's a big deal. But she had a successful child. And the reason I bring that up is during the question and answer with her surgeon and obstetrician who pioneered this work, he brought up. He says, you know, actually, we've been approached by several men who want a uterus transplant so that they can have the birth experience. So OK, we all went. So he said, let's have a show of hands, men, you know, who wants to have the birth experience. And, you know, I think there are maybe two men in the audience put their hand up and my wife was sitting next to me and she jabs me like this. But it just brings up all sorts of can you imagine if I think you can, what if men had been in control of having a birth? How things would change? So that's a long-winded way of you're in control of your birth and yet the vast majority of obstetricians in this country and I suspect in the UK are men or women who have been trained in a men-guided system. Yeah, so how do you take how do you take control back? That was a long question. There's so much there to unpick. Well, I think just knowing that you are in control is the first step, I think, to being in control. Knowing that you have human rights and childbirth, there's a growing movement to educate women about human rights and childbirth. There are lots of organizations around the world who are starting to advocate for women on that level. So I think knowing that you have a choice is really important. You know, like I said, when I talk to pregnant women sometimes and their partners, you know, about their birth choices, sometimes the takeaway point and this really shocks me that in the 21st century, the takeaway point for them is not so much about all the details of their choices, but the very fact that they have a choice. That's the message that we need to be getting out, you know, above everything else really, is that it is OK to think about your your choices in birth and to, you know, to question and to to wonder and, you know, to make different decisions to other people or to maybe to even the decisions that may be standard or recommended. So I think that's the thing really is just to know that you're in charge. Know that you have the right to make these decisions and don't be afraid to speak up and say what you want. Know that you matter. So can you shop physicians and midwives? Is that OK? And how do you go about doing that? Can you shop around? You mean? Yeah, shop around. Can you say, you know, tell me about what you see, you know, during my pregnancy and during my birth? And here's what I'm thinking. I mean, is that now allowed? Or I mean, not allowed, but should that be the discussion? I think so. I mean, I think that we do have some some cultural changes to make. I don't think this is going to happen overnight because I think at the moment women who try to behave like that in the maternity care are often cast as divas, birth zillers. They make that, you know, they have their laminate. Yeah, for this word is used, that women with their laminated birth plans, you hear all these kind of negative sort of jibes about women who try to be in the driving seat. So it's not always easy to do, but I think that in itself speaks volumes about how necessary it is and how important it is that women do take play that role. And, you know, don't be put back in your box. Whether or not you can actually shop around, I think depends on where you live in the world and what, you know, what kind of support you've got and what the infrastructure is. But yes, I mean, you know, recently at a birth show in the UK, when I said on the stage, you know, somebody said about not getting on with their midwife. And I said, you know, well, you could always ask for a different midwife. They again, people were quite shocked at that idea. And I'm shocked that that's a shock. Why don't people know that if they don't feel comfortable, you know, you're about to give birth, you know, it's a very intimate experience where your emotions and how you're feeling play a big role in how your body behaves. There is a mind-body relationship at work. And if you're in the presence of somebody who's making you feel uncomfortable, that could have a direct impact on how your body births and how your body opens or does not open. So of course you have the absolute right to say, I need somebody different with me in this room, you know, and why shouldn't that be okay? Yeah, that's a great point. And you mentioned, have you had one water birth or two water births? Yeah, I've had three babies. I'm not having any more, totally done. Yeah, that my second two were born in water at home. Yeah, and you know, I'm a huge advocate of that. And I'm writing a book, it's in my series of books. I actually firmly believe that women were designed to give birth in the water. And there is huge amount of evidence that the birth process is so much easier for the woman and the baby to give birth in water. I think there's actually very solid evidence that that's how it used to be done. Yeah, I mean, it's the real evidence as well as if you just talk to women who've done it, not just me, but you know, I've never been able to find a woman who had a water birth, who hated it. You know, and I think there's something about the protectiveness as well that it gives you. Unfortunately, you know, in the current system, I think it's quite difficult for women to get that kind of hands off birth, you know, where the professionals, we need the professionals to be there. I am not saying that we need medical backup in birth. That is very important. It's one of the things that makes birth safe. But women feel safe when they are, you know, quite often when they just have a bit of distance and are able to get on with it and, you know, ask for help if they need it. But the water offers that opportunity really to be a bit protected. It's a bit more difficult for people to get to you when you're in water. And I think as a laboring woman, you feel that and you kind of feel a sense of relief that you've got that little bit of distance between yourself and everybody who's in the room. Let me and let you and I assure everyone who's raising their eyebrows about water birth that the baby is actually in water while inside of you. And it's the most natural thing in the world to come out of you still in water. And babies have a gasping reflex and there's nobody who drowns in a water birth. No, no, that's definitely a misconception and a falsely placed anxiety that some people have. But yeah, it's the baby, as you've said, has the dive reflex so they don't breathe until they come up and they're still attached to the umbilical cords. They're still getting their oxygen just as they were when they're in the water filled amniotic sacs. So yeah. So I wanted to have you on the podcast because I really relate to your new books theme. You know, advocating for women's health is something I've been speaking about for a very long time. I've been on The Morning Joe news show here in the here in the United States because women simply aren't being heard by their doctors and I really think this needs to change. You know, in my own practice, female patients with autoimmune disease actually have seen six to 10 doctors who brushed off their concerns before they found me. And that's, you know, so I think you're right. Women are absolutely not being heard on that. I'd like to give you a couple of personal examples and get your take on this. And they're actually both about cesarean sections. I have one patient who luckily has been in remission for rheumatoid arthritis because she did not want to have a second pregnancy while on these immunosuppressant drugs and she had a lovely second child but her doctor wanted her to have a cesarean section second time around as a safety factor and she agreed, she actually has a very small pelvis and her doctor would not do a vaginal swab and swab the baby's mouth and nose after birth. And she said, but that's ridiculous. My baby has to have to have my vaginal microbiome to start the immune system. And he said, that's just ridiculous. There's no evidence for that. And I actually had to write a prescription to her obstetrician and only when he was confronted with that was he willing to do it. Now, this is someone who quite frankly does not know the science. The immunology behind how important the vaginal birth and the vaginal microbiome is in setting up the baby for success in this day and age. But also, even if the woman was incorrect about the science, just hypothetically, let's say that she was if she wants to do that with her vagina and her baby then he should not stand between her. What is his right to say that she is not allowed to put her own vaginal bacteria onto her own baby? Good healthcare should not be about supporting women in the decisions that you personally as their doctor agree with. It should be about supporting women in decisions that you probably don't agree with because you have to accept that it is their body, their baby, their choice. Yeah, I think, and that brings up my second patient, not my patient, actually. We became good friends with a waiter who happens to be Hispanic and his wife was having her second pregnancy and she had had a caesarean section, fairly as an emergency caesarean section and she was very educated and wanted to attempt vaginal birth the second time around. And her obstetrician said absolutely no, there's no way I'm going to chance it, you're gonna have a caesarean section and the waiter is talking to me and he says, what do you think about that? And I said, well, wait a minute, there's huge amount of evidence that you can successfully have a vaginal birth following a caesarean section, you just have to find the right physician who's willing to accommodate your wife and be ready to do a caesarean section, but let's see how far it goes. So they actually traveled about 50 miles from their home into Los Angeles to find a physician who would say, of course, we need to try that, but here's the risk, but we're gonna do it in a hospital setting. And they traveled the 50 miles and they scheduled it as she was induced and she successfully carried a normal vaginal birth. But if she didn't know that was possible, if she had accepted the first obstetricians, no way I'm not gonna do that. And they loved the fact that, yes, they traveled 50 miles but it was a scheduled inducement and they were delighted. Again, how do you help women get this power? Well, I think the sharing of information is really important and that's why I started the positive birth movement is so that women can talk to other women. That example that you've just given is a classic example. I've had women talk to me like, there was a woman in the UK who wanted to have what's called a woman-centered caesarean. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but it's where the caesarean birth is kind of geared around the woman more, centered around the woman more. So perhaps the screen is lowered so that she can see the baby being born. She might have optimal cord clamping. She might have skin to skin. She might have music being played. The clinicians in the room keep a lower volume and a bit more of a kind of reverential respectful atmosphere, et cetera. This was the kind of birth that she wanted and she posted on social media saying that she didn't know what to do because she'd been told it wasn't possible where she lived and an obstetrician popped up because obstetricians are on the positive birth movement social media as well to say, hi, I do that kind of caesarean. Come to me. So she traveled like your story. She traveled 50 or 100 miles away and had the caesarean birth that she really wanted. And it was a really healing experience for her because she'd had quite traumatic experiences prior to that. So it really meant a lot to her beyond that, just that one day it was for her. It was a very important life experience that she took forward and that gave her a lot of strength and inspiration as she went forward through her life. So it was really important to her. So yeah, I think that sharing of information that social media has made possible is actually really fantastic. Women sharing their stories and saying, oh well, over here where I live, they don't even tell you that or they tell you this or this doctor told me this and it's just that little, those little ripples really can be helpful to change and give women a better sense of their choices. So how does a woman share these views with her doctor or midwife? Is there a good way to handle it short of coming across as a self-centered feminist diva? That's enough. Well, I don't think we should have to dress up our needs and our desires too much in order to make the other person feel comfortable because birth is, you know, the woman's experience, you know, it's not the doctors or the midwives' baby or birth. So to some extent, we need to be strong, stand upright and just believe in ourselves and use our voices. However, we don't wanna go to war and alienate people. So obviously it's great if you can build really good bridges and rapport and relationships with your healthcare providers and, you know, if that can happen, that's wonderful. But for me, the bottom line more and more is that women need to, you know, not be apologetic about what they want in childbirth because they may only do it once or twice in their whole life and it can be a very empowering, important experience, a very transformative experience for them or it can be the exact opposite and be violating, traumatic and, you know, take a long time for them to recover from. So it matters and it's okay for it to matter. And do you spell out all these ways to do this in your new book? What's a takeaway from the new book? Well, yeah, I think all of those things that I've just said, knowing that you matter is really important. You know, challenging this sort of cultural idea that a healthy baby is all that matters is a big takeaway from my book. We all know that everybody wants to come out of birth with a pulse and alive and that's great but we need to remove this idea of the healthy baby from the pinnacle of expectations and put it down to the baseline expectation. That should be the bare minimum that people get from birth and, you know, it's okay to feel that you matter. I'm very passionate about making a birth plan. I think that's weirdly, although you wouldn't necessarily automatically think it, I think making a birth plan could be quite a sort of feminist issue. Like I said earlier, you know, people who do make plans, sometimes they get mocked, they get told, oh, look at this woman with her 10 page laminated birth plan, you know, she's a controlled freak or whatever. But, you know, I think that that is a subtle way of undermining people who are actually doing something quite reasonable. They're trying to take control in a situation where a lot of women are coming out, telling their stories where there was no, they had no control. So what would your reasonable response be to that situation? If you, like you said earlier, you know, you used the example of a man-giving birth, how would you approach it if you'd heard all these stories of people who went in and felt completely out of control? Well, you may well make a 10 page laminated birth plan. You know, we need to see that as a response to the current system, but also we need to see that with respect. This is a woman who really cares about the experience and who's done her homework and who knows what her options are and is interested in taking an active role in it. So why would you want to deride or mock that woman? So yeah, that would be my advice, make a birth plan, get informed, know that you matter, and don't be afraid to say what you want, use your voice. And also I have to say, if you don't feel that you're properly treated, please complain. I really would like women who have had birth experiences in which they feel they weren't given the respect and the compassionate care that they deserved to actually speak up about that. Because I think often that's part of the same package that we've been talking about of being told, oh, well, that's just how birth is. You know, that's just how it goes for women. You know, you just have to get on with it and enjoy your healthy baby. So women just kind of keep quiet about it and think, well, this is just what it was like. I just have to suck it up. But I think it's really important that women do actually complain and say, no, that could have been better for me. You know, you're right about this laminated birth plan. In this day and age, we wouldn't think about taking a trip or doing a commute without activating our Google map or our Android map or our Apple map to have directions along the way and to know what's in store at each stop. And my goodness, why wouldn't you do that in birth? Now, that's a great point. That's a great point. And have a plan B as well. You know, we always would have a plan B, wouldn't we? If we were making plans for our wedding photos, you know, in the rose garden, we would think, well, if it rains, we'll take them in the archway or whatever. So, you know, when you're making your birth plan, it's not about being having... I think some people mistakenly see birth plans as a kind of fixation on one particular kind of birth. And if it doesn't go that way, you know, I'm gonna have a tantrum. I don't think women are actually really like that. I think we're all pretty intelligent, reasonable people. And so, you know, you have to think about it, just like think about any other plans in life. Yeah, I'm gonna have... This is my absolute, what I really want plan. And this is my contingency plan. And this is what I'm gonna do if I don't get what I want kind of thing. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Millie, it's been great having you on the podcast today. And this is really an important aspect of women's health as are all aspects of women health. And I think this is just another example that women really need to speak up and demand your rights for great health and great health in the birth process. So will you tell our listeners where they can find out more information about you and your work? Yep, you can find me on social media, on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook, and you can find the positive birth movement on social media. If you wanna find your nearest positive birth movement group, it's at www.positivebirthmovement.org. And obviously you can get my books, the positive birth book, and give birth like a feminist on Amazon and from all good booksellers. Very good. Okay, it's time for one of my favorite parts of the podcast and that's the audience question. Daniela Stella on Instagram asks, have you heard of pilli nuts? I'm wondering about their lectin' content and they're not on your good list. Well, yes, actually I have heard of pilli nuts and I actually have some at home. One of the reasons they're not on the good or bad list is number one, they're actually very expensive and you don't get a whole lot from the money. But they don't have lectins in them so go ahead and get them. But I wanna give a shout out to a fairly new company out of New York called Lava, L-A-V-B-A. They make a yogurt that's all plant based, primarily based on pilli nuts and sorghum flour. And I've had it, it's great. They're in most whole foods now but if you actually go to their website you can find them locally. On the west coast they're also in sprouts markets so be on the lookout. If you want some pilli nuts that are reasonably priced find yourself some Lava yogurt. But great question and let me add a disclaimer. I have absolutely no relationship with Lava. I have no commercial interest in them. I just think they're a great company and ought to be supported if you're looking for pilli nuts. So this is Dr. Gundry signing up from the Dr. Gundry podcast. We'll see you next week and thanks again Millie for being on. Thank you so much. Before you go I just wanted to remind you that you can find the show on iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts because I'm Dr. Gundry and I'm always looking out for you.