 It's totally casual, it's nothing to be concerned with. Let me make sure chat's actually good and running and then I will grab it. This is a complete like out of nowhere as well. I actually said there won't be an EFAP this week so people can be like, what the fuck? Unsubscribed. I like the text messages you put in the uh... I was trying to make it work. Yeah once enough people talk no one will see the horrific messages I've sent about Forteo behind his back. Where's the thumbnail for Amnesia and Heavy Ghost? I fucking changed the thumbnail! God damn it! Hello everyone in chat. How do you do everybody in Bataru? Yeah I guess I've uploaded the thumbnail twice. I hope that actually changes for people. That'll be embarrassing otherwise I'll just be like, what does this have to do with that? Actually no, it'll work even with Amnesia. All right by the way are you gonna share the uh... watch together? Oh well, I mean I guess I could. That was great, it shows it all to stream but it cuts off the last six letters so there's no way the random public could get in because they'd have to guess all six. So ha ha I didn't make that mistake which would have been embarrassing. We made that mistake a lot on out like rags in particular. Rags is like a 60 year old man when it comes to the computer. When I had him on screen for the first time I was like, is everybody good to record their audio and give it to me? Then he was like, what do you mean? I was like, record your audio on your end. He was like, with what? I was like, audacity? And he's like, what's audacity? He's like, Amnesian, I mean rags no please. But yes, hello chat. How do you do? Yeah look someone just said I was watching your Amnesia vs. Soma and you were saying you would respond to Joseph. When this video comes out and it came out. That's the wondrous thing. So serendipitous. I'm not even kidding, 2015 I think I did that series. It was in 2016 but either way, he said during his Soma video that he was going to make a video to explain why horror games just don't work. But I was like, bring it on. But it's obviously it's very subjective but there are also some points in here that we can definitely get our perspectives on. But he very famously said, which I will meme until I'm dead, that Soma is not a horror game because it's not scary. Which is the most retarded statement ever. When I was watching this video as soon as I got to the part where he said Soma, I'm like, yeah I'm pretty sure he's going to respond to this one. Oh yes, I mean Soma's my baby, I don't mind admitting that. I think it's an excellent game. Fun fact, because I'm new here, even though I've been friends with Mueller for a little while. I actually met Mueller because if you guys recall, he did that video on Outlast. And he was picking out a bunch of other YouTubers that kind of didn't do very good synopses or just didn't do a good job in general. And I was one of them. And it was really funny because I came, I was watching it and I got this like pit in my stomach and I was like, fuck is my video going to pop up? And the moment that it did, I like nearly had a panic attack. I was like, fuck he's going to rip me apart. It was really fair. You were right because I was at the point of already trying to be like, I've got to be nice. I got to stop being mean. People got really upset when I rip into people they like. And I don't blame them. It's like no one likes to see that. But if you're like Patrick Willems level, where you literally say like up is down, but down is up and you just be like, what, why do you, you don't find any. It's very easy on me. You just kind of nitpicked a point here and there. But yeah, after that, I messaged you on Twitter. I was like, this is a really good video, dude. And you're like, oh, thank you. And then we became friends. This person in the world. Yes. So I may as well get around because I know there's, there's a lot of people in chat would be like, okay, I know more. So to my left is Fringy who you guys, he was on before for the, for the Black Panther EFAP, which was wonderful. Yes. That's right. The Rhino milk episode. The beautiful, beautiful Rhino milk episode. So welcome back as a, as a recurring guest, which this was a, yeah, so I should probably say as well, this is an emergency EFAP as we all get every once in a while. You need a bit of an emergency one to go out. You know, if you, how you feel in the moment, Joe's fans and released this video. And I was like, oh my goodness. I want to respond, but, but rags is out of town. So I had to fill with, with a bunch of these freaks. So like this Fringy person was, was the first one. Oh, thanks. Thank you so much. Then you got Chase face who's next up who I mean, yeah, he just explained like, that's, that's pretty shy man. I said he's piece of shit. And then he was like, hey, and then I was like, oh, you want to hang? You like, yeah, okay. I'm, I'm a little weeaboo faggot. I don't know why he talks to me. See, see that's, you get yourself down when, when you made what I would call was the best video I've ever seen on Kalanoa. That's, that's my, that's my thank you. I, I'll generally find a way to promote that one day. I just got to slip it in somehow. It's not awkward as hell. If I ever release a video, I'll be the first step. But yeah, so he'll, he'll be here to check this video out. And then to the left of him would be a good friend of mine, Smiler Al, who was actually on, I think the first episode of EFAP with a different icon. Yeah, I can't remember which episode. I don't think it was the first one. It was one of the earlier ones. And it was, you were there for Macintosh, weren't you? Yeah, that was, yeah. So that was like, what, a third, maybe? I think so. But yes. And then to the left of him is Mr. Metal Commander, who's never been on here before, to my knowledge. Yes, that's true. Hello. But yeah, he hangs out like with me every now and so while we like do stuff and yeah, he's a good friend. So how, I think we've all seen this video aside from Alex in, not necessarily because we wanted to practice, we don't really do that on the show, but because I was so interested in seeing what the arguments were. And there's already been responses that, I love watching Joseph Addison respond to criticism. It's so hilarious. He's, he doesn't take it well. He gets very, very prickly. It gives you a good idea of how they view themselves if, because every now and then someone will give me criticism and my immediate response is like, fuck you. You don't know what you're talking about, but every now and then I have to stop and go. No, you know, that was really the point. Well, for instance, on Twitter, this is what he said. Way more people criticizing this latest video without watching it than usual. I hope it doesn't mean it's always this high and it's just more obvious this time. Why would, why assume that? What if they did watch the video and they disagree with you because of everything that they saw? Not fringy, they're just haters. They're all haters, dude. Come on, get with it. Genuinely. Also, it is fringy on behalf of the poor guy. He gets called fringy a lot. I know. It's okay. I got your back, bro. Yeah, the, when I saw the title of this, I was like, man, you really going to explain this in 13 minutes, like horror games. That's a very large genre, you know, because like if someone said why games don't work for me and then the video was, I literally am dead. I have no arms, legs or senses. So you'd be like, oh, okay. But like, if someone's going to go out to like games because I never played them or I don't like it, you know, you'd be like, you, surely you're going to have to have a lot of substance because it's going to take a while. Yeah, you would, you would think that. I mean, you're effectively trying to say this entire genre that is effective for the majority of people doesn't work. It's a pretty bold statement. And on top of that, then, there was like a subreddit post for this video and someone linked my soma videos on it and Joseph Anderson actually commented back to it, but he completely ignored my videos, which I don't blame him because I actually saw a couple of comments that we're just talking about. Yeah, Mahler's video was way more on point than they like criticized you, but they were like, he's still it's because I was an asshole. He's a narcissistic, stuck up prick. It's not, it's not exactly untrue. I was like, seriously, looking back at the soma what I was like, bad. I was, I was annoyed though. He'd, I genuinely think he dealt damage to soma, like on the makers of soma. Yeah, I remember how fucked off you were when you were making the videos on that, man. I have so much respect for frictional games and watching someone so influential say, yeah, this is a shitty horror game. I'm like, oh, fuck you. Like you'd have no idea how much effort they put into making it a good game. Like, I mean, I'm a YouTuber. If I don't like something poo poo, it's not good anymore. Sorry, boys. Sorry, gamers. That's just the truth. And like he said at one point, there's a part in the game where you do a thing and he talks about it in terms of story analysis as if there's no choice, which there is a choice in that part. And it betrays the fact that not only did he not know there was no choice, but he only played the game once. And to me, I'm like, oh, played the game once. Yeah, because you forgot that about the wow being destroyed at the end in the end. I think that's the part. Yeah, but, um, you know, and there are valid complaints for soma. I don't deny that. It's just a lot of stuff he said was really dumb. Oh, I know. I should say straight away that we're probably going to be shitting on Joseph Anderson quite a bit in this video, which you might notice is a bit of a running gag with all of Mueller's content. I want to say, I want to say up front, I've known about Joseph Anderson for a while. His perspectives are interesting. I don't explicitly hate the dude. If he watches this, Joseph, I don't have anything against you. Oh, I mean, I'll let him know that me and Alex both watched his The Witness video. And what do we say something wrong in the lines of Alex where we were like, why can't all of his videos be like this? Yeah. I mean, well, I think the thing was with that one. It was, I obviously, most of the videos that I watch are like, you know, I've played the games or whatever. So I don't just like instantly disagree with him just because it's him. But The Witness was actually like, oh, yeah. No, it is. He did research. It was lined up with mine. He like passionately got into it. Yeah. Yeah. He did. Yeah. There's a lot of insight into it. I wanted to comment on about the other title again, the whole why horror games don't scare me. It kind of crosses like that kind of pretentious brag when somebody like brags about how many, like how much alcohol he's drinking one time. I'm sure that's not what he's going for. It doesn't touch me. I'm not affected whatsoever. But there were a couple of comments saying, oh, look at the big, the big mainly YouTuber. He's not scared of us. All right. Okay. Okay, son. Well, like, I was watching DSP play amnesia recently. And like, there's a bit where a door like flings open and wind just goes, whoo. Then he goes, oh, wow. Is that supposed to scare me? I'm not scared. And he like, it comes across, you're like, man, you really just puff it up your chest there, aren't you? And I think that there's a bit of a disconnect for how like, you're not supposed to be like, I'm courageous. It can't scare me. The game wants you to be vulnerable, to let yourself sink in, you know, and pretend for a second that you're actually in this situation. Because obviously there's no reason to be afraid of any game or film because none of it's real, ultimately. But that's not why we do these things. We'll get to that point once we get into that. So yes, I actually do think that Joseph's one of the better creators when it comes to analysis and sort of video essays and stuff, compared to people like Down with Thrust or fucking other hundred names. Not even on the same level. This is the thing, it would be a perfect world if everyone was on the same level or up from Joseph Anderson because we could be all having decent conversations instead of being like, wow, this guy literally did this for money. Also, Joseph Anderson, if you listen to this, if you're listening now or in the future, please for the love of fucking God, get a better microphone, tweet me. I will literally help you shop for one. A preamp, I'll help you set it up like everything. Just for the love of God, stop using your headset. I know it sounds B, but my criticism with that side of it would be like, please sound more interested when you read your scripts. You sound half dead when you do, you're like, this game does this and this and this. And over here, like, have you ever heard him make a joke? You're like, go, why did the chicken cross the road? Get to the other side. And then it carries on. There's a nice little gap and you're like, oh shit, that was a joke. Yeah, it's kind of a little bit of like a bit flat delivery because I'd say probably, I guess, to me the immediate comparison with him would be to Matthew Matosis, but I find that Matthew Matosis is still more interesting to listen to. Matthew Matosis is a fucking accent. I love Matthew Matosis. Yeah, same here. I think he's one of the best sort of video game critics on YouTube. Yeah, absolutely. I would definitely agree with that. Well, some guys said, I can't call people out sounding half dead on board. I deliberately tried to sound alive and well in my three hour videos. You sound like a fucking supervillain who's like slowly jerking himself off. Yes, I do appreciate that he puts a lot of effort into his videos. Good for you, Mr. Joseph. And today, I know that the initial response to anybody watching this would be like, man, you can't just let him have an opinion. It's like, we're going to generate our opinion on his opinion. So this is reaction culture. Everyone get used to it. If you if you want to say that you shouldn't say anything about it because it's an opinion, then we get to have that defense too. Give it give it over. Sowers, you can't keep it just for him. You know, that's not how it works. Also, it's neat. We're on the 11th episode of EFAP. We finally passed the the 10th on running straight head into into progression. I don't know. It's just cool. Eleven's cool. OK. Yeah. Shut up. I'm looking for adding very little value to it. But yes, I am ready to go. Is everybody there? Yeah. Yeah. All right. Here we go. Yeah, boy. When I was a kid, I was terrified of scary movies. Half of the reason why is that I watched some ridiculously over the top horror movie when I was five years old and had nightmares for weeks. The other half is a strong aversion to being startled. As I got older, this is I don't know about you guys, but I can't take it seriously if you'll say startled. It reminds me of South Park. I can't take it seriously when people put undertale music in the background for the entire fucking video. Oh, is he? Is that what that is? No. Yeah, it is. It's all the whole thing that's undertale. Oh, yeah, I wouldn't have chosen undertale. Which is fine, but it's like, it's not 2016. Go with Bloodborne. Bloodborne would have been great. It's nice and creepy. Yeah, it would have been better. But yeah, I am startled, reminds me of I am so startled. Fuck it. Am I the person who knows this reference? Don't let me hagg it. Friggy Chase, do you actually watch South Park or are you both sad? Oh, yeah. I love South Park. It's been a while. I don't even want you to. It's the giant. I don't even watch TV anymore. I think it's the giant. Like, is it gerbils or hamsters that attack the place? Yeah. It's a reference to Cloverfield, I think. Yeah. And I can't take the word startled seriously. I'm so startled. And then I got to see that now. You know, like, startled makes me think of stuff like you walk out of your bedroom and then like a brother or sister is just standing there and you go, oh, hey, what are you doing? That level of like, that could come from even like, you know, playing Mario like nothing. But I mean, he uses startled quite a bit. I was just like, why not scared? But I think he considers them two different things. I don't know. This is the other thing that someone brought to me that like, for a video like this, you've got to be so clear on what these words mean, because otherwise we're all just sitting here like, what is the difference between being scared, being spooked, being startled? You know, the time you confirmed the variables. Especially with what is what is horror, even like, what is what is it describing? What is it to be terrified and horrified? What are the if you Google it, terror means great fear or great horror. And it's like, wait, it's horror, great fear. How does this work? But it is literally startled right now. I'm going to chat. It's startled. Let's let him go on startled. As I got older, this extended to horror games. I remember getting chills when I was 11 years old and saw this scene in Resident Evil for the first time. The remake version is still pretty spooky in my opinion. It's funny. I actually got the remake. That was the first one I played of Resident Evil alongside mole combat and this scene scared the shit out of me when I was younger. I played two when I was a kid, but like the remake of one is is really fucking good. Also, he says spooky a lot. I know it. It's it comes across a little bit. Like, do you get this as well? It's a little bit called the setting. It's like, stop referring just scary as spooky. It makes it sound like you don't take it seriously at all. Yeah, I have the same. It's just a little sarcastic, isn't it? Yeah. Fact. In fact, nothing in video games truly scares me anymore. Truly. You could explain this away by saying I was a wimp when I was a kid and that I grew tolerant to spooky stuff as I got older. However, there's a problem with this answer. Horror movies still scare me. Sure, it has to be above a certain level of camp and actually try to scare instead of startle. But these movies. What does that mean? I think what he's trying to draw. Yeah, I think he's drawing a distinction between movies that only scare you because they catch you by surprise. Yeah. Which isn't really like the which I find to be cheap. Like the insidious style conjuring the nun films where it's a monster. It goes, yeah, like atmosphere versus side. Well, let's compare it to, I guess, Alien, which I'd say is a horror film, but doesn't really do jump scares. It always sort of builds up, builds up and ramps up towards, I guess, what you see coming or what you don't see coming. Yeah. Yeah, it could use attention. Does anyone know what I will film? This is he's currently using. I don't know. Actually, I don't recognize it. No idea. No idea. But these movies certainly exist and can creep me out. Same for a few horror books. Yet games can't do it for me anymore. And after years of thinking about it, the reason why finally caught off in the place where I was playing. Well, what's wrong? He's not going to shit on this. Is he? Oh, I don't think I can't. I don't think he's going to shit on. It's more like shitting on the genre, not shitting on any specific game. I don't know if that makes it better or worse. I'm just going to like grip my chair arms. Games are, of course, interactive. The boundary between its characters and the audience is much thinner than in any other medium. For the majority of a game's runtime, you are in total control of a character and the line between you can blur. I agree. This is especially true in a game that has a silent protagonist that you make in a character creator. But it's also true when your character is their own entity independent of you in some scenes. No. Define for everybody? Sometimes what's together can be a little bit glitchy. It's good for me. Well, sometimes I have issues where I try to pause it and it just ignores me. Do you want to pull it back a bit for you for me? Yeah, a little bit like 20 seconds. Sorry. And the line between you can blur. This is especially true in a game that has a silent protagonist that you make in a character creator. But it's also true when your character is their own entity independent of you in some scenes. This should, in theory, strengthen any situation that involves fear. In fact, this is why it took me so long to realize why video games don't scare me because it... I'd like to stop there because I'd say that, yeah, it does actually make it scarier just for most people. I mean, it definitely makes it scarier for me. I hate to reference like amnesia basically is for every single counter argument because that's probably what I'll do. By the way, just for the record, Joseph Adson, I don't think he completed amnesia and someone asked him... I think I told you guys before, one of the top comments was, dude, play amnesia with the lights off, with headphones on, and tell me that's not scary. He replied to it saying it was boring. Like, it's... I don't... Okay, someone with ADHD, I can kind of understand that, but you still have to give it. Anyone can find anything boring or exciting. That's besides the point. It's more about like, with amnesia, especially considering what he's just talked about. I get like this... I was Daniel, right, when playing it because what's really cool about that game is that you learn about Daniel's history and instead of the character reacting to it like, oh God, I did all this. It's up to you. It's on you because this is you now. You're getting told about because when you start the game, you're a blank slate, just like you would be going into the game without knowing anything. It's like, if you get immersed, you become that person. That worked flawlessly for me, but like, he's going to explain why it just can't for him. And it's interesting because I think Fringy said this in a PM1 point, but it's just like, that interaction is why I pretty much say that like video games scare me more than any other medium because I get so entwined with as if I'm actually there. When I'm I think it's perfectly normal reaction to any video game. It's like when you're in the middle of an intense firefight and a shooter or something and you start actually panicking when you think that I mean, you're not scared, but you start getting frantic about it, even though yet it technically doesn't matter because you'll just play it over again, but that's you don't think about that. I don't, I don't find like sometimes you'll be consciously aware of, ah, I'm going to have to respawn and do that all over again. But I think most of the time you're in the you're sort of pulled into the experience. I mean, that's how games work. That's why games are fun. Well, this is my opinion, which is why I mean, we'll get there, but like I always felt like this video should have just been a conversation about immersion rather than yeah, highlighting some of the people have said that you're peeking a little bit. So if you can turn your microphone down by like five decibels or something. Okay, actually, I could just like, well, yeah, I can just turn it down. Hang on. Sure. That should be better. Yes, I apologize. Yeah, I mean, the video so far is fine because he's just setting the groundwork. So it's like, yeah, that's great. Yeah, we're still waiting. We're getting to it. Feel so intuitive. Fear should be one of, if not the most powerful emotion that video games can invoke. When you're watching a movie, it's a character that you are passively tethered to that is in danger. You can't change anything that happens, although you may become so involved that you start yelling at them, not to split up or to not go through some spooky door that obviously leads to something horrible, but you yourself are never in any peril. What he's just said would be arguments for why movies don't work as well as games for many people. If someone told you, it's like, it's predetermined. I have no interaction with it. So I'm not really scared for them. So I know that they're dead or alive either way. You know, I don't agree with that statement, but someone can make it. And I just wonder how he reacts to that. Sure. How he reconciles it, because obviously he would say, well, that's on them. This is for me. And it's all subjective. I'd be like, hmm, okay. I thought we could have a conversation, but fine. When you realize this, you may wonder, why do you feel scared at all? Well, an answer, but not the only answer, is empathy. Either you are invested in a character, or you are imagining what it would be like if you were in that same situation. If you were being hunted by some unstoppable supernatural force surrounded by zombies stalked by nightmares, it's terrifying. If you were to Yeah, why did he use Twilight footage right there? I think it's not supposed to like sort of be a joke. I've got to imagine it's a joke. Like he's pretending that the Twilight is almost like a morib. If you consider it. I can't get rid of that. Just why? It didn't land. It's a conscious thing that I didn't catch the first. I was like, what the fuck is in Twilight? I'm just going straight away. I was just like, what? But okay, God, go. Surrounded by zombies, stalked by nightmares. Terrifying. If you were to jump into the situation in place of the character, you can imagine how vulnerable you would be. So again, doesn't it feel so intuitive that in a video game, everything should be heightened since you are that character? You are in control. You are in the dangerous situation instead of the characters on their own. Well, turns out, no, not at all. At least not for me. Oh, right. Is that right? See, this is this is a problem with Script Riot. You can be like, that's just a pity. He's like, what he just, he just said it as if it's just not the case. He said it as if it's an overarching problem. Yeah. Not just his personal, you know, I was thinking about this. I think last night where I think Moeller and I had a conversation like about Marvel movies. And I think it was something to do with, you know, the heroes just dispatching of the goons like it's nothing, but never taking out the actual bad guy. And I think what we, like, I realized that it was a petty non-complaint that didn't matter and that I couldn't apply to anybody else. This is what this video comes across as to me. Hang on. I do want to read, listen to this again in case he actually did sort of add in the subjective part to it because I could have sworn he just said like, it's just not the case. Well, that's not the case. Yeah. But does he say, everyone in chat saying he says for me, so I'll let it play. Since you are that character, you are in control. You are in the dangerous situation instead of the characters on their own. Well, turns out, no, not at all, at least not for me. Okay, he saved it. Hang on though, he said not at all, at least not for me. It's like, all right. Actually, you got so fucking sideswept about that first comment. You're just like, this is true. What? It's like the police show up and you go, I didn't do anything. They go, and they slowly back away. Like. Video game protagonists aren't human. You cannot fully commit to imagining what it would be like if you were to take their place because you are already in the place along with them. In addition to the superpowers, every video game. This is where it gets really confusing. This is where it gets pretty ridiculous. The characters aren't all human. They're not human because they're his first, I mean, it's not how to break this up because he says like, it's all fiction. It's none of it's real. I think this is his first mishap is because it seems like he's applying a different criteria to video game characters than a film character or a book character. Yeah. When he says that they're not human, I'm pretty sure he will refer this to the fact that he believes that respawning is a superpower Yeah. that is a thing to every And so you cannot relate to any of these characters. Is he marginalizing them as NPCs? Does he at any time talk about identifying with your characters? This is 30 minutes. That's the investment, isn't it? Like the whole emotional investment, like, you know, because like he's using Isaac in the moment. It's like, you know, whether or not do you do you like empathize with him? Well, just saying it doesn't matter. None of that matters because the fact that you cannot be a super human being that you respawn, but the irony is like there are games where you play as super characters and you identify with them. Hey, hey, hey, System Shock 2 like contextualizes how you can respawn and still be the same person again and again and again. I mean, just Well, that's a thing. I don't find shock, actually. I know they're not horror. I was going to say like these are characters with powers, telekinesis and stuff, but you get, I was super invested in Bioshock because like it didn't matter that funnily enough, that's actually working as a counter as well because that has a narrative to account for respawning. He does mention that, but he doesn't necessarily, he like mentions that's a thing, but he doesn't say if it works for him or not. He sort of just moves on. I think you needed to spend more time on that because there is a distinction to be drawn between a game that contextualizes respawns and one that doesn't because the one that doesn't, you just got to treat that as non-canonical. Like this is what might have happened, but it's not canon. You got to do it again. And once you think of it like that, there's no difference between a video game and a film because it's because it's still a set, you know, set sequence of events until the end. So if he could get terrified, like it just seems to be this weird boundary that he's put there. It is a weird boundary because you start to ask yourself like, he says like, this is a superpower. Therefore you cannot relate. And it's like, there are plenty of superpowers these characters have. Look at that. There's a superpower, man. This guy is a superpower. This guy is in a different part of the universe fighting and just literal demons. In chat, Kyle Kesterena said, even if you can't respawn IRL, you also can't get chased by a xenomorph either. So what's this point? It's the book. But I was going to say, he rags on about Soma, but like Soma, when you get killed, like you get like a free guy kind of thing where like you you get knocked down versus like die and like respawn in the menu. Like actually gives you, it tries to make it like, you know, oh, you've got another chance. And that ties into a second issue, which is that there's no repercussions for death. Which is not true. You have to do it again. How would you have repercussions for death and not break your immersion because you would have had to have died, which is impossible according to him. We should wait. You do have repercussions. You've got to do it again. That's the repercussion. This is why he needs to be talking about this with someone before making this video because there's so many conversations to have. So many different ways you could take this because I have no idea what he was trying to say. I feel like when he scripts that he's just like, this is inherently valid. Moving on. Don't really have any expectations. It must be true. But the thing is, this is this is before he's gone into the meat. So we'll give him a chance. I want to see because he does say here, I want to relate to him because he's a superpower. And I think the first thing he says is because of they, they respawn. I don't think he says anything else. Protagonists aren't human. You cannot fully commit. The aren't human thing is bizarre. It is. It's really strange. It's kind of just misphrased, I think. There's a course. I think he's trying to make a point. They're just not following what it means. Have you guys ever played a game that you connected to the person? They're not human anyway. They're different. They're like an alien. Crash Bandicoot. For yeah. Crash Bandicoot. Cornel in the co-op. No, exactly. Yeah. Robots. These. Um. You don't need to be human to it. This is the. Damn it. Let him talk. Go on. To imagining what it would be like if you were to take their place because you are already in the place along with them. In addition to the superpowers, every video game protagonist has. Typically a main character in a video game can die. He's jumping. I just say. Heroic. Well. Just listen to that part again but listen to the music. It's so like, why did you choose this track? Are already in the place along with them? In addition to the superpowers, every video game protagonist has. I mean, I don't even know what song it is but it's just like, why is it something. In his defense, it is kind of hard to find good music for like horror games. He likes Bloodborne. No, Bloodborne. Bloodborne soundtrack. Bloodborne. Well, I was going to add without using the same soundtrack over and over again because Bloodborne is good but if every video had Bloodborne music in mind. Well. Son of Hills music would have been perfect for this. I was just saying that. Take the horror game. Even the Alan Wake soundtrack would probably work to be honest. I've not heard it recently. There's a lot of choices. There's a lot of choices. Just comes across as carnival music right now. That's weird. It's fine. It's fine, Joe. I don't mind. I'm more interested in the script. A protagonist has. Typically, a main character in a video game can't die. Sure, they can get ripped apart and pale through the chest, blown up all sorts of things but they always come back. Sometimes it's contextualized within the game of the world. Sometimes it's a simple reload screen and you're good as new. Better, actually. See, and that's the issue already. So they did die. You just now go back to a reality in which you did not. It's almost as if players want to finish the game. I mean, that's none of the point that I was making before. It's just you've got to treat it as non-canon. That's how you reconcile. Yeah, you try it again. You didn't. It's not like a guy who dragged your body back to where you were. It's an alternate. Injected you with the thing that resurrected you. He's like, no, that's done. That timeline is done. It's a non-canon fail state, essentially. Yeah. Unless it contextualizes it. That's how we all go forward with it. We're like, that's... It's something that you don't even think about, though. It's just that's it. That's how it works. That's the crux, isn't it? It's like he's saying he thinks about it. And that's like, okay. Well, that's your problem. Well, many would argue that he's only explaining his problem. He's not explaining a problem, but the thing is he's absolutely explaining a problem. He's not suggesting solutions to this problem. It's not a problem. Right. And that is the problem with the video. I also saw him saying to somebody on Twitter that he was effectively saying that video game characters have superpowers because they can't die. So he's not stating it like it's his opinion. He thinks that that is a fact about video games. Not to mention... He does account for this in a bit, but it's just like this line of reasoning already makes us wonder. It's like, so you want it. You want Puma Death. Does that solve your problem? Right. Yeah. And obviously... But again, does that solve the problem? No. Because you still have to restart the game. So it will never work. The other issue is that you get... You get... Let's say... Let's say he was saying... He's not saying this, but let's say he said alien isolation, amnesia, whatever else, it would be fixed with Puma Death and then he's happy. Imagine the amount of people that would never complete these games because of that. Like the amount of people would say my mission was broken because I kept having to restart the fucking game. And... It would be super scared and that would make it worth it. All the sales, they'd lose. I'll tell you what, is so scary playing the same like five hours over and over again and being like... There we go. It's annoying enough with certain games that have saves. Alien isolation can get you replaying the same past half hour or more if you die without having saved. I mean, that's kind of the problem when it comes to horror games because as soon as you die and you have to go back immediately, like you get the chance to sort of rectify that non-canonical ending. That's the point of games, though, isn't it? That's the direction of what you get wrong and do it again. They highlight this issue. They're like, when you play a horror game, it's scary up till you die and then you're like, well, that's the high. Here's something that always occurs to me. Outlast, when I played that in fucking 2014 whenever it came out, that was the scariest shit ever because partially I didn't understand how the AI worked. I didn't know where the enemies were. It was just complete shroud of mystery that I was walking into, sprinting into even. And then as soon as I played it again a second time, it was not scary at all because I immediately knew what was going to happen, of course, but I knew I started to figure out the AI and then you could fuck with them and play with them. So as soon as mystery starts to, you know, become more clear. For example, when they were remaking Resident Evil 2, like the new one that is, they did an interview with the guys who worked on the first game and the interviewer was this British guy and he just asked them like, okay, I have to ask you, how do the crimson heads work? Because it terrifies me. It's so scary. And he just laughed and looked at him and said, I think it's scarier when you don't understand how it works. And like that always stuck with me. I was like, yeah, that's true because as long as you don't understand it, it's fucking terrifying. And I was just going to say that the idea that you die and then redo even 10 minutes of a game, it'll start to sap the fear factor, which is actually kind of what Joe's fantasy is getting at. But it's different for everybody, for a start, like you could have someone literally restart the same section 10 times over and they're still terrified because they're just that invested. But Friction will try to fix that. They were like, okay, so when you get hit by a monster in amnesia, you get tagged for damage. And I think on the lowest difficulty, if you have a lot of health, you can take three hits from the basic enemies until you die. On Soma, like Alex pointed out, you fall to the ground, everything goes black, and then you wake up, you know, X amount of time later and you get up and you have a limp. The idea being, because it matches the narrative that the monsters only come after you because you're moving and making noise and once they knock you down, you stop. That's it. So you carry on. You're like, oh, thank God, I escaped, you know, death. And that was their angle. They were like, they were trying to find a way around it. But the fact is, like you still die in those games eventually. You still have a failure state because it's a game. And they didn't want to make a fucking road game where you like restart the entire game. But this is the thing. There's so much nuance to this this topic. Since you've learned something to avoid that same death next time. See, it's because of the interactive nature that this doesn't work. When a character is in danger in a movie or book, you see the main though? Yeah, it's starting to slip in. It's in the for me. It's like, oh, well, look, I backed myself up. But you're talking as if this is a lot of people argue it ruins a script. It would not have ruined that sense to say this is why it doesn't work for me. Fine. It's fine. Absolutely fine. Danger in a movie or a book. There's already a set ending for them. They very well could die in the scene that you're watching. That's a set ending in games as well. Or face lasting repercussions for the stakes. As we say, is he discounting choose your adventure books? Yeah. And is he what's his what's his perspective on rewatching a horror movie? Are they ruined after you've watched them once? Oh, I know she dies. Fuck off. That's what I'm saying. Like, I don't watch Alien again. Dallas is just going to kill you. You know, horror movies don't work for me because all of these characters are actually actors adhering to a script that was not real somebody. Once you recognize this, horror films aren't scary anymore. Anybody could make these weird arguments. It's just not that strong. Yeah, see, there you go. There's already two people have said, like, isn't it pretty obvious he's just arguing for himself? No, it's not really not. And you'll never know exactly what he was actually arguing was a definitive issue versus an issue for him. And that's precisely why they do it. They they'll avoid it. And you could be like, Joseph, did you make a singular point in this video that wasn't subjective? Do you make anything in terms of mechanical criticism? I'm pretty sure you would say like, well, no, I did share some things. Is there an issue that he didn't explicitly state that? Well, I haven't got a quote from him, but I'm I'm assuming for the fact that he released this video that he wanted to share something of a mechanical analysis rather than just saying, this is all my feelings. Since that is kind of what he does, you know, because he does loads of great teardowns of stuff with actual, like, actual shit, you know. The Mario one, he tried to like, sort of prove tedium by showing how many of the same thing there is. And obviously you can't you can't prove that there's a feeling that someone will definitively have, but he provided great evidence for why you may feel it is. Is where, you know, and that's fine with me. But like, this is my problem with this. He's like, this is why I feel this way that, you know, you die and respawn in video games and we're just sitting here like, you enjoy anything then? Because this same shit happens in basically every piece of media that are limited by their own delivery. Well, limited by the fact that they aren't real, you know, it would have to be real for it to be truly authentic otherwise. Somebody's actually kidnapped Jordan Anderson and hold a knife to his throat for him to feel a sense of immersion. I think this is all rooted in the problem that for him, it seems to be that death is the main thing about horror, like dying is the main scary part. And the scary part isn't necessarily atmosphere. I wouldn't even say, sorry to interrupt, I wouldn't even say that it's dying. It's like the looming threat of dying and all of the other sort of audio cues that come with it personally. Like I'll talk about Visage in a little bit because that's the really hot horror game that everyone's been playing lately. But that game has a lot of really interesting kind of horror philosophy behind it in terms of design. And I just want to clarify as well, even if it is just his opinion, we're still welcome to counter-criticize if he says something like, this is just how I feel. Then we go, okay, but that feeling, like say for example, I said I love all kinds of bright lights, but I hate torches. You'd be like, why? And then someone goes, that's just how they feel. It's like, yeah, but we want substance. That's just, that sounds like nonsense. Like it's weird. And yeah, and you know, so call us assholes if you want, but we're trying to dissect his points, even if they are just- Call us assholes and you're right. We are assholes. I mean, yeah, I agree with you. We don't shy away from that. Ending for them. They very well could die in the scene that you're watching, or face lasting repercussions for mistakes. There's tension because every injury and every death is canon, whereas a death in a game is a release intention instead of cranking the pressure even higher. You hit a fail state and restart. Suddenly that monster that killed you isn't nearly as threatening anymore, since you've just experienced the reincarnation superpower of your- But you know you can kill you again. It's not only reincarnation superpower. It's not fail effect. I can't even- I want to stay silent. I'll let you guys have takes because this is this so much to add back. It's ridiculous. Yeah. Well, the first thing that I would lead with, I think was that he doesn't seem to make the connection that the main continuity of the game is canon in the same way that the film is canon. So why is it that there's this distinction where even though we can recognize that both have a canon continuity, only one of them is effective? As people are saying, respawning is not a fucking power. You died. Now you're playing as someone who did not die. That's the- I guess he's punching that point in the perspective of immersion and atmosphere. I would say that if the character isn't aware that they respond, then it's not a superpower. Question. It's treated as non-canon. What happens when Joe Sfansen plays a horror game and he managed to not die? Does that- It's gonna hurt. Does it become effective? This game's too easy. I have to- I'm not saying get good. I am not saying get good. But if the problem is, I keep dying and now I'm disemused. Like, what about that guy over there who completed it without dying? He said it was the most terrifying thing ever. In his canon, he never died or he died at the end, whatever. Well, in your canon, you died like 20 times according to you. It's so like- How do you reconcile that? And you're saying like- Here's something in the dark. You always had that superpower though. You always had the superpower to respawn. It's like, yeah, but- Okay, right. But here's something I've actually been thinking about. I was thinking about, you know, how with a film, if you're watching it, you know that at the second act, the main character's probably not gonna die. Like, yeah, there's a slim chance that they might, but you pretty much know that the main protagonist isn't gonna die before the third act. You could, what if you were to take somebody, sit them down in a room and get them to play a horror game and you didn't tell them if there was permadeath or respawns? What happens now? Like, if Joseph Anderson got taken into a room, sat down to play a game and he wasn't told if it had permadeath or not, what would happen? You know, what would change? So you- Personally- When you find out while playing- Well, he'd find out after dying, but- You guys know layers of fear, right? That game didn't have any kind of actual death in it, I'm pretty confident, and I just found it really annoying because what would happen is you would walk forward into a scripted death animation, fall down on the ground like you're dead, and then you would wake up, respond in a new room, so it just progresses the story, which isn't really a death as much as it is just a way to reverse the story. I remember that- But I found that really fucking annoying when I played that. When I figured out- I remember when I died and felt like there was something on the line. Yeah, when I figured out it was like almost a mechanic that was slapped on because they didn't really plan for you to actually- Say for example, the monsters come and you run into it instead of running away, just to test what happens, and it's like, you fall over. It's like, oh, okay. It's a bit weird. And yeah, and the- CinemaSins just mentioned in fairness that you could argue the superpower aspect is that you get the experience from that previous life, but I mean my question would be, well, what happens if you repeat playing a game or what happens again with films when you watch a film for a second time? I'm genuinely curious, does Joseph Anderson think that films- horror films are terrible after you've watched them once? Because a second time cannot work. No, it would be interesting to know, yeah. See, I would say a lot of it is just kind of comes down to the detail. Like if you even- if you know this character is gonna die, then you can still be freaked out by the details and the tension just sort of like the pacing of it. I of course agree, because I love rewatching some of the greatest horror films. And just for the record, I'm not as much of an intellectual powerhouse as any of the people in this chat who probably have way more experience like actually sitting down and thinking hard and critiquing things. I'm just like, yeah, I like fucking this game and that did a cool thing. So I see what he's saying. You've overestimated me. Yeah, I'm just saying that. I'm thinking that like a lot of the best horror films or the ones that I enjoy the most are the ones where the dread comes not just from what's happening in the film, but I guess the question that it raises. Like I'd say alien and the thing of two good examples, because whether or not you've watched it before, the idea of that creature, it's still terrifying. And the idea that it's maybe possible because there's so much stuff in space, I think is probably the more effective horror component of it for me personally. Yeah. I think the more I think about like the details of something and if it were to make sense, just what that would entail. Like for example, a lot of SCP related content, just the amount of detail that goes in the back stories of those just to make it so like spine chillingly terrifying the more you think about it. That's the kind of stuff that really like keeps me up at night personally. Just sort of two pieces of information to throw in. One being someone mentioned the thing and it's like every single time I watch that film it just works like it creeps me out every time. But Cinema Sins mentioned that there's no is rare to find a horror film that will be as scary the first time around simply because you don't know what's going to happen. And it's like I don't necessarily disagree with that. I think that's what I'm getting at. It's like what Joseph Anderson is describing as ruining his immersion. I'm trying to say like, isn't that part for the course in basically all media? Right. Because eventually you know that it's not that bad. I guess you know it's going to happen. Yeah. There's no easier solution really. Yeah. What can you do other than bar people from having access to it again? You watched it once. We've been lingering on this. Bands you on Steam. It's like a thing you have to re-tune you buy it. Delay you a BIOS. Sorry. You try to get a different account and some Steam official comes to your house like, excuse me. Now that's horror. I'm excited to do it. That is horror. Hail State and Restart. Suddenly that monster that killed you isn't nearly as threatening anymore since you've just experienced the reincarnation. I find it interesting this is threatening by the way. Because this monster that's just killed you is no longer as threatening. It's like, I don't know. I think it's pretty threatening. It's proven that it can kill me. But I think I get it. I think what he should have said that was scary probably. Like, no problem. He's not even taking into consideration that games are mostly for overcoming a challenge of some sorts and not for your character to be dead all the time. Asaurus. How do you explain Pribideth? That's a battle. Well, you can still restart the game. No. Creation is super power of your character that you always knew was there but may have blissfully ignored until now. Imagine this happening in a movie. Death ruins horror games. Now it could be that many can still separate themselves from video game protagonists. This is what I mean though, you know, where it's like, oh, this is my opinion. Said death ruins horror games. That doesn't sound... Does that sound like an opinion or more like a statement? Well, as everybody will say, he only needs to say it's his opinion once or twice or five or 10 times but then you should understand that it's always his opinion even when he makes statements. Can I just say, I'm annoyed at just how much screen time death space is getting because that game is scary but I don't really think it's that scary to warrant using it that much throughout the game. It strikes me as like, he only had a couple of horror games in a Steam library. He's like, all right, I'll just capture a little bit of this. Hey, Alex. What do you find scary? Alan Wake or Dead Space? That'd be Dead Space. Mel? Yeah. I'd say I go with Dead Space. I was more creeped out by Dead Space but it could be, I could argue it's for more arbitrary reasons. Like I think, no, actually to be honest, which one's more atmospheric? I'd be like, there's more probably jump scares in Dead Space but I also think Dead Space is more atmospheric because of... I tend to prefer like science fiction horror for whatever reason more so than other types of horror maybe because there's a little bit of plausibility to it, like it might be plausible. So this is able to go on in some time in the future or it is going on right now? Perhaps. Well, space is so big. There's no way that we could actually... Like paranormal we know is not real. Like it's not real whereas science fiction is plausible. We're going to have to keep saying this. I told you we'd have to keep saying this. Someone said, did you just read the name of the video? So why horror games don't scare me? Meaning everything is subjective aside from the times where he's not. Guys, please listen. He makes statements that are definitive sometimes. And we're trying to figure out which ones those are. It's tough because I guarantee you Joseph Anderson probably would be like, it's subjective if it can be counted. If it can't be counted, it was objective. It's like... It's almost like they didn't watch any of your other videos. And it doesn't mean that we can't criticize it even if it is his opinion. It's almost like I should put that just in a big a big fucking stamp on the street. On the street all the time. And themselves with all of their real human weaknesses in their place and be spooked. I will never say that is an invalid reaction to horror games however doesn't it also mean that the game has failed to fully connect you with the character you're controlling? Think of it this way, there is an Olympus Mon size difference. Can we go back a second? I want to hear that. Yeah, I kind of do it well. Yeah. I don't know how far back. Moving further back. Yeah, that should be fine. Movie. Death ruins horror games. Now it could be that many can still separate themselves from video game protagonists and imagine themselves with all of their real human weaknesses in their place and be spooked. I will never say that is an invalid reaction to horror. So you're saying you could play it and just ignore the fact that these people have more power than you and just feel scared on behalf of yourself? As opposed to you wouldn't be as scared playing as somebody else? Or just that you don't care. I want to see what he says afterwards because I feel like there's something that I'm thinking about. With all of their real human weaknesses in their place and be spooked. I will never say that is an invalid reaction to horror games. However, doesn't it also mean that the game has failed to fully connect you with the character you're controlling? Okay, right, now I know what I've been thinking. Go for it friggin. If I would have made a point that a film isn't scary because I recognize that their actor's reading a script then I could easily make the same argument that hasn't a horror film failed in some way because you have to force yourself not to think about the fact that there were a bunch of camera guys behind the camera and that somebody sat down and wrote this and that a bunch of actors shot several scenes at a time. You know, basically contain this. I'm not seeing how somebody could make this argument. It just seems like you have to deny the fact that it's fictional media altogether. And he's just said, like, isn't that a failing on them to miss out on being able to connect you more so by making the character more so like you? And I just be like, again, I don't really understand what this is coming from. I can connect to, you know, like a space marine gerbil running around if they've got a great character versus an actual human in a normal day job but he never says anything and it's just taxes. I'd be like, I don't care about this guy has nothing to do with your actual capabilities. I mean, that's not the darker glow. And Chad said nightmare on Elm Street is just Robert England reading a script. Those aren't even real burns. Not even not even real blood when he kills the actors. It's just fucking fake blood. Shit. I bet those actors are still alive today. This mon size difference between holy shit, that character is going to die. And holy shit, I'm going to die. And this is all something a horror game has to deal with before deciding whether or not you can fight the spooky enemies and whether that combat will be purposefully awkward to try and raise the tension or something. Wait, wait, wait, wait. So a difference between the character is going to die and I'm going to die. See, this is this is why I don't think he's being precise enough in a video game while you are playing a character that they are a character. Not to mention I don't think I personally I think it's more complicated than just those two as well because even if I in a video game there are characters I'm not playing as that I care about and I care about myself and I care about the character I'm playing as there's also the aspect of just drop me in an environment that's scary with no characters. It's just a camera and I can get freaked out if you have the right atmosphere. And so how do you explain that? Is that me being afraid for my life or afraid for characters life when there isn't even a character? That's also just the horror isn't just dying. It's not just about dying. Like there's more to horror being effective than just dying. The themes, tone, atmosphere, sound design. Presenting the ideas of Lovecraft to people is enough to freak them the fuck out. Yeah, like Cthulhu, man. That's scary. Yeah. If it actually existed, you can't do anything to stop that. People will point out he's using Hollow Knight's music now. I've sort of I'm paying so much attention to what he says that I've just ignored the music at this point. Yeah, I don't want to pick on it too much. Why does he keep using Twilight? I mean, and he mentions like character in film. It's like. People point out that he was joking, but I didn't understand how it fit in as a joke in that one particular shot. Yeah, yeah. It's like, I don't. Like now he was joking for that first one. He's not guilty like that, is he? Was he? I don't know. I don't think he is. I don't know. And this is all something a horror game has to deal with before deciding whether or not you can fight the spooky enemies and whether that combat will be purposefully awkward to try and raise the tension or something closer to an action game and an enjoyable part that isn't meant to be scary. Did you catch that? He implied that like you can't enjoy the combat and stuff like Resident Evil because it's too clunky. I'll let him go. I'll let him go. He's fine. He didn't reference Silent Hill because that would be the like the one of the worst offenders. Like I don't even necessarily disagree with him to be honest. Like it works. It works. Yeah, there are games that obviously like amnesia's sanity system is absolutely an example of them trying to cripple your standard abilities as a gamer to make you But once you divide them it doesn't want you to just like just run circles around them. Yeah, it wants to make the enemies stronger by making you weaker. Like there are a lot of different design ideas you can do. And again, this is a conversation that could last for like an hour talking about how all different games try to weaken the player and strengthen the enemies and all the different methods. He's like, he's writing it off so broadly that you're just like... You know what? This is my conclusion of this video. It makes me wonder what the hell he thinks about like a million topics when it comes to horror. This is just so vague. It could talk about it for more than 13 minutes and I would be happy to see it. Well, now you know. It doesn't cross the board. It doesn't scare him. So, is there an answer? Checkmate. This is where I conclude that most horror games aren't truly scary but are instead horror. What I will say as well is he has not got enough references. We've got Dead Space, Alan Wake and Alien Isolation and Run An Evil. Twilight. Yeah, it's on a hill two at one point. He did. Yeah, he briefly mentioned it. Like, what I'm saying is like, go for, I don't know, go for some more like... I mean, he's going to have more references as we go but I just mean... Get some more in there and explore the mechanics. I don't know. It feels kind of weird because I just never look at like Dead Space and Amnesia and Silent Hill, for example. Those three. It's just like, wow, how fucking different those three are, you know? Yeah, it's funny. Somebody mentioned in chat, he needs to play till darkness. I'm pretty sure he mentions eternal darkness in this video. Oh, does he? He mentions until dawn as well. Oh, we'll let that... I want Alex to hear that. Yeah, I'm talking about a rectile dysfunction. What? Well, I heard that Edward was erectile. I saw ED and then you say eternal darkness and I was like, oh, I thought they were talking about a rectile dysfunction and explain a lot more for me. That'll be a good horror game. Very horrifying. Not horrific on their own. They can have disturbing imagery, oppressive atmospheres. But this is done in the same way that many other genres theme their games. Actually, how is that not horror though? I don't see. How does he even separate that out? How can you do that? So horror themes and horror are not the same thing. He's like, oh, the atmosphere and the imagery and the artwork. That's just themes. What was theming? What do you mean? He needs to be more precise of what he means by themes. He did this in the Soma video. He said that Soma will have atmospheric sounds. It'll have visuals that are terrifying. But all of that is just like this stuff telling you to be scared. It's not actual scares. I'm just sitting there like, what the hell is actual stuff then? Like he said, true something earlier. Just tell me what it is, Joseph, please. By the way, a few seconds earlier, Jenna just pointed out this is where I could include most horror games are not scary. That sounds like an opinion. He said that, yeah, he did. A few seconds earlier. I want to hear that now. Not horrific on their own. They can have disturbing imagery. Oh, it's a little bit further. Yeah, it's a little bit back, yeah. Feel the back. Meant to be scary. Does it feel the back of Matt? This is where I conclude that most horror games aren't truly scary, but are instead horror themes. Yeah, he said they're not scary, but they're not truly scary, but horror themes. That's the kind of shit that triggers me and Alex because it just doesn't mean anything. Horror themes are not really scary as what you would include. Doesn't fucking mean anything. Try it hard. Just move the goalpost. It's not horror. Oh, so it's not trying to scare you. It's the same shit you do with Soma. Well, in that Reddit post, someone called him out for the Soma thing and he was like, okay, well, I wasn't scared, exhausted, thrilled, spooked, startled. I wasn't at all out of breath or whatever with Soma whatsoever. It didn't do anything a horror should do. Therefore, it isn't horror. And it's like, that's not how genres work. What? Patches of Spanner said mathemes. Yeah, well, yeah, well, yeah. That's what you said then. It's like the most robotic response ever. It's like, oh, well, fuck it. I can't help you with that. I'm sorry. It'd be like if I said, you know, I watched Alien, and yes, there's a spaceship. Yes, there's a planet that's never been visited before and it's in the future, whatever. But I didn't get the sense of technology. I didn't get the sense of progressional futurism. So it's not really sci-fi. I watched Terminator 2, but I didn't get the sense of action or thrill. So it's not an action film. None of it was real, so it wasn't worth it. They were all actors bad. They were all just actors. Did you guys know this? It's like huge revelation. Horror games aren't truly scary, but are instead horror themed. Not horrific on their own. They can have disturbing imagery, oppressive atmospheres. But this is done in the same way that many other genres theme their games. Action, combat, and or puzzle solving in a fantasy setting. Sci-fi setting. Historical setting. Spooky setting. There's the base. I know it's not focusing on that particular game, but it's just when the footage lines up with it, I'm just like, it kind of works. Yeah, it's intentional. It's like, no, it's not. We got a nice thing, and then another thing. Gallus said, tell Chase I like his content. Fuck you. Thank you. Then Michael said, I like what are your Dark Souls vids, Bola, but Joseph Addis is a better content creator. It's like, oh man. Oh, oh. Fair enough, man, fair enough. Sci-fi setting. Sci-fi setting. Historical setting. A spooky setting. This is by no means. God damn it. It's like referring to Red Dead as a rooty-tooty cowboy shooty. That's what that is. Yes. Sci-fi setting. Historical setting. A spooky setting. This is by no means a bad thing. Phillips can be fantastic. To go back to Silent Hill 1 and 2, I was able to appreciate the atmosphere in both games immensely. Surprisingly so for the first game, where the dated visuals sometimes added to the experience all these years later. But I was never scared, just like no modern horror game has scared me either. My name is Harry Mason. He keeps, like, okay, so to clarify. Just immediately get ready for it. Don't bother with that when talking about this. Like, explaining why a horror game is not scary. And then you go, I played them and they didn't scare me. It's like, I don't care. That's not good enough. That's really not a good enough response to that. It's like, it didn't work for me. Excuse me, guys. This is his opinion. Thank you. Thanks, guys. It's like playing the first bit of Shoe and going, oh, I didn't really kill anyone. It's fucking boring, you know? They're all just fucking code. They were just code, man. They weren't real. That's just code responding based on development. These are just simulations. I can't... Town on Vacation. The game that has scared me the most recently isn't a horror game at all. Although it does have something else to do with it. I want to point out something else. If a character in the game is an NPC and you're not in control and they die in its canon, that should be able to scare you then. Right? No. Right? Because that's how it works in film. So it should work in games, right? Nope. I'm sorry, Fringy. He said no game is scary. Well, no horror game is scary. That's true. Oh, you fucked. Oh, fuck. And also, it's his opinion, Fringy. What's wrong with you? Come on, dude. Fucking... Wow, neck beard aliased over here. Jesus Christ. Fucking gatekeeping opinions. Having an opinion on opinions. We need like a good game for this. The game... Yeah, seriously brace yourself for his example of a scary game. Has scared me the most recently. Isn't a horror game at all. Although it does have some unsettling elements to it. They aren't a core part of the experience. I'm going to show it on the screen now. And I'd like for you to give me a second to explain before you shut off the video. I hate this part. Because... Mmm. You go so fast. So I mean... You go so fast here, like you're talking to me from clicking off, but it's weird. Yeah. Oh, that fucking... That instant fucking blue balls. So I'm so flaccid. This is a part where it threw so many people in the comments section. They were just like, don't stop. Like what? What's happening? He's just talking about permadeath. But yeah. Of course. He's going to explain it. But it's so confusing. Like... It's stupid. It's stupid reasoning. Fuck it. You have a bunch of people and it's like, what are your favorite horror games? And he's like, Resident Evil, Silent Hill, Amnesia. Don't stop. Scared me. And it's like, okay. Drank up X-Made. I thought Wupo was pretty scary. I'm going to use Manchin as well. And this is the thing. You can be scared by literally anything. You could play Simpsons Hit and Run and say, it's the scariest game you've ever played. I'd be like, okay. That's your opinion, Moe. Have you seen the fucking textures in that game, dude? It's pretty fucking terrifying. It's terrifying. Just before you continue, is this game going to be able to be compared to against like games like Minecraft, where like, you know, you can die and... I know you can set it on Minecraft. Well, one of the top comments was, if I've got this correct, one of Joseph Anderson's top horror games would be Minecraft, Hardcore Mode. Yeah, yeah. And then like, what about like X-Com, the Iron Man mode on? Because that would actually be like, you know, well, a lot more violence. And like, well, in games like Don't Starve, you restart the whole game, don't you? With X-Com, you restart like, well, you have to get new soldiers if they all die. But you're going to eventually lose the campaign. But I don't know. Well, basically, if you spread out your save points enough, it becomes a horror game. This is what I'm thinking from this. That's when you start to get to the question of, is the fear of progress or the fear of loss the same as being terrified by an atmosphere? Like, when I'm like, oh, Jesus Christ, all these people just ambushed me and I'm going to lose all my X-Com dudes. No, no, no, no, no, no. Is that the same as me being like, oh my God, the monster spawned in the room and I don't know where he is? Was that like, has anyone played The Forest? Because that plays like similar mechanics, like Tim's like, you know, Hunter Gathering and you know, there's a enemy threat around your base or whatever that you're going to keep an eye out for. And that's actually like trying to be a lot more scary. You know, like it reminds me of The Descent, the film. Yeah. And that's the thing. It's like a combo. Could Pirmadeth work in a horror game? It's like, well, I think Monstrum was good. So that would be an example. And then you go, can does Pirmadeth make a game horror? And it's like, I mean, I don't think Rogue Legacy is a horror game. But I've seen some people say that Fire Emblem is a great horror game. But like, we'll wait for him to sort of make some statements before we explore it because we want to see what he's going to say. Okay, still here. I'll speak quickly. Don't Starve has some elements of psychological horror, but they're kept light. You have to manage your hunger and sanity. If your sanity goes too low, you'll begin to hallucinate. Monsters will appear and fight you. Your sanity will also drop along with your health if you are caught in total darkness at night. None of this would be particularly effective except that Don't Starve has Pirmadeth. You can construct extra lives for yourself but they weaken your character by lowering their maximum health and you need to commit resources to building a new one after each death. These are substantial enough hurdles that every life is precious. So when you make a mistake and realize as night begins to fall that you are low on food, health, don't have the materials on hand to make a light source, and have only seconds to solve these problems, you may feel, oh no, I'm doomed. I'm dead as you scramble for a way out. Okay, but you can restart the game. Uh, I'll just do my best to be devil's advocate. I imagine he would say, yeah, but this entire set of progress, all of these individual things, this was a whole experience and now it's gone forever. Look, I don't disagree with the notion that when it's permadeath that it can be a little bit more terrifying with, but it might partly be just that you don't want to get to that point again. You know, like you don't want to go through the tedium of how you weigh back up. Like, absolutely. I understand perspective of like when, you know, you've come so far and you realize that you are about to die and it's like, shit, shit, shit, it's all on this. Like I'm about to lose everything. I get that. I would agree with this point except that it contradicts other things that he said. There's a counterbalance though. Because if, if games started doing this, then we'd have, you know, Johnsef Orndeson making a video saying, horror games don't scare me because I know that if I die, it's all over and I don't get another chance. I don't get to remain immersed in my playthrough. I don't get to actually see what would have happened if it played out that I didn't make this one mistake that led to my death. And games would be better if not only you had some, some option to save state, like let's say you have a typewriter that you get to put an ink piece in, it's limited, so you don't spam it, but it makes you use it as a resource management sort of thing. And the narrative could be that it's a different piece of canon that you died in, you get to go back to a time you said, you know, and they know, they know less valid. So I'm just like, this isn't, this is just, this is all stuff that's been talked about already to me. Like this is all old news. Like we understand the difference in genres. This is why permadeath is a thing and not permadeath is a thing. It's like two different kinds of things you can play. It would just be like me saying like, um, I don't like action films because there's no sense that, of dread or something. And you're like, why are you looking for that in an action film? You're like, well, I don't know. I want it in it. And you're like, um, okay. Again, because I don't think he mentions monster in this entire video, but I'd love to know if that's what he's looking for, because it's got randomly generating resources. It's got permadeath and it's a horror game, absolutely. So I wonder if that would, I wonder if you think that's a good horror game. There's a bunch of games that do that and he doesn't mention any of them because that's the thing, these exist. There are games created for this taste. Go fetch them. Monstrum, Rogue Legacy, Binding of Isaac, Enter the Gungeon. The Forest. Those aren't horror games, guys. Checkmate. Well, I was going to say, not all of them are strict. By his logic, they are. By his logic, they are. That's a fucking problem. Binding of Isaac has some horror themes though. I mean, Binding of Isaac is about the biblical, well, based on the biblical story. And I mean, that's a pretty terrifying scenario where you... Well, this... And now we get into what defines the genre, which is a conversation me and Alex never like to bring up because it's just like an endless pit. But the idea that you... We were talking to a monk about this while he was streaming. So he's playing Destiny and I was like, imagine Destiny, but you just raise a fog wall three meters out from where you are. You make everything get washed out and darker. You make creepy sounds in the distance and the soundtrack is just low violins with the breath. You start to go, hang on. Am I playing a horror game? Like, what's going on? And that's the kind of thing... So if that was throughout the entire game, you'd be like, this game is clearly trying to be horror versus Mario, where you apply that for one mission. And it's like, you're in the spooky village mission and you jump through and it's just spooky enemies. You're like, oh, that's cool. It's a little cute little spooky level. Look, now I'm even like wondering, could you make the argument? I don't know if I want to say the spoiler specifically, but I'd said that there are points in like Avengers Infinity War, where you're supposed to be shocked and kind of worried for the well-being of a character. Is it scary to think that a character you really like is going to die? Or is it not... Is that horror? Or is that just being scary in a different sense? I feel like a 12-year-old girl, maybe. You know? But that's a whole subject all on its own. Which if you talk about this for days... If he was here, I guarantee you the answers would end up getting us concluding that he should have a bit a bit more clear at his video because there's so much to go over. Or he would just block you on Twitter. Oh, well, yeah, that's kind of... I'm so close to that if anyone else references my videos to him. But someone else just brought up in the chat is very true. Amnesia, Justine. I don't know if any of you have played it. It's like the bonus piece of content they released with Amnesia once it fully released, I think. Hard mode, right? It's a small story. I think the developers made it. I can't remember if it's just a mod they officialized or not. But it's a small story. It lasts about 40 minutes if you do it correctly, but there's like three different challenges. There's lots of running around and avoiding enemies and stuff, but it's Permadeath. It's supposed to be a short story compared to the main game, which is why it makes sense. I thought you were talking about the hard mode, which they just added officially. Oh, not that. It would last like a month or two. See, now that's another thing I want to get his perspective on. Joe, they added Permadeath. Does that make it better now? Because I hated it. But now it's boring, so... I mean, it's not necessarily Permadeath. You do get saves, but they're very, very few. He must love Devil May Cry, Dante must die mode because that's Permadeath, I think. Well, Dead Space 2 has the... What's the mode called? It's like some... If Bio's in chat, you'll know it, but it's like... You know, just some name. Let's just say fucking Dead Space Reloaded. And that's just that. You get Permadeath on that. Or it's two saves throughout the entire game is what you get. No, wasn't that Bioshock? No, Bioshock is... Brass Ball's mode would be Permadeath, but you... I think that's... Yeah, you get a save per level as in like you go from... Oh, okay. The medical facility to the... Like Fort Frolick sort of thing. Yeah, Diablo III is Permadeath. There's a whole mode. What we're basically leading towards is the idea that as once it's Permadeath, it's more... Even if it's an action game, it becomes more scary than a horror game if it's got Permadeath. Which is where we're heading. It's more fear of losing progress. And again, this will make it scarier for many players, but it'll also ruin it for many players who'll be like, I can't be able to play it because the second I die, I have to do it all over again. I can't be asked. That's not scary. That's boring. And so I ask him, it's like, how do you reconcile that with your like, this is the answer? But I mean, well, I think we're getting to that. I think he starts talking about those. Yeah. How to fix horror games. How to fix the horror games. If you also want to do self-imposed Permadeath, that's something I see a lot of like hardcore streamers doing. Yeah, yeah. Definitely turns things scarier. Like wouldn't Nuzlocke sort of be like that? Yeah, in a way, I guess. Horror Pokemon. Horror Pokemon. As you scramble for a way out, death has meaning, unlike almost every horror game out there that I've played. Oh, here we go. Does this mean that I want every horror game to have Permadeath? No, you fucking know. Yes. Oh, he said yes. He said yes. He said in a way. He said in a way. I know, I know. You guys are straw-matted. There are too many horror games. There are too many horror games that have mechanics that can instantly fuck you over. And then if you want to restart like, you know, four plus hours of progress. Some people like that. Like, and I was always at this game modes or there's difficulties in games that let you do that. Like nightmare mode is typically what is called or rather. But honestly, the fuck that? I can't do them. Like basically, it would have to be a perfectly designed game where it was never cheap or did something that was unfair. It would otherwise it would be frustrating as hell. And the feeling of it being unfair is the time as well. Just the time. Like, like, you know, everyone's got different, like, you know, free time in there. You know, to play games and shit. Like for certain people, if it's like, oh, you reset like six hours plus. Like, that's like, no, I will not go back to that. You know, some people, some people in the chat are making a good point. We are just kind of like talking over what we presume he's going to say. But apparently. Well, let me do it. Let me do a disclaimer in the same way that Joseph Anderson would. All the stuff we just said is not related to him. If it sounded like it was, it wasn't. I would like to be a sortie. Anyway, I'm hoping to be corrected by whatever. Yeah, but yeah, just to clarify the format that we do this in, we will absolutely think that Joseph Anderson says one thing when he's actually saying something else once we carry it on. But that's going to happen. And then we will account for it where we find them, you know. And that should be OK. We'll absolutely correct the record if you. So yes, let's continue. That I've played. Does this mean that I want every horror game to have permadeath? Well, yes, in a way. But it's not that easy. Like most problems that encapsulate entire genres. This is complex. It's why I've always tried to make that clear when I've criticized horror games in the past for not being scary, some in particular. It's not a specific failing. It's just that I wish he would rephrase it. It's like, it's not scary. What about that guy over there that said it's scary? It's like, oh, well, it's not scary for me. It's like. Yeah, he could have said that. Honor wide if you can reload after dying. I also fully expect that many people will disagree with me. But just consider how much more powerful a visually terrifying enemy in a horror game would be if it also had the ability to inflict tangible consequences upon death. Why is it not a tangible consequence to go back to a previous save? Yeah, I know. I mean, that's that is the main consequence of dying. You have to do it again. Yeah. Nobody likes to die. What do you think checkpoints are for? It's the developers saying, OK, this is the amount of time we can keep it as a punishment, but that won't piss players off too much. That's what a checkpoint is. How about they just release like a special horror edition games console where if you die, the game console just bricks itself. You know, is that with that with that add enough attention? I guarantee you at least one percent of the population likes that sort of shit would really invest in it. It looks like a hardcore. You know, you're a mechanic in Demon's Souls, where the more you die, it actually starts stacking against you. So does that mean that World Tendency? Yeah, kind of. In Demon's Souls. So I guess Demon's Souls is more of a horror game than the Soma. It'll scare him more. It has cut him. Oh, OK. We have to stop. I mean, I do think I do think the Souls games do have a spooky atmosphere, though. I don't think that spooky. God. What have you done to me? Spooky, scary. How much more frightened would you be if it caused you to truly consider retreat as the best option, making you say, please don't kill me. Please don't kill me. How do you play Amnesia or not get to that point? It's literally designed so that's like your main option. I'm sure you guys are hearing, right? You just said, like, imagine. How did you respond? I mean, because that's the thing, right? There'll be people who play Amnesia and then go, I don't care if I die I'll just respawn. And for me, I'm just like, you're not really meeting the game are you there? Just like if someone's watching. I have an older friend of mine said he's never scared by horror movies because it's not real. Serious thing that you say. Here's kind of my take is I forgot the name of the crazy doctor in Outlast. I like how that's all I'm fucking talking about this whole stream is just Outlast. That's like my only frame of reference lately. But like the crazy doctor in that one, do you remember his name, Mahler? Traeger. Traeger. So Traeger is one of the only examples that kind of jump to mind when I think of what we're talking about. It's yeah, I can die and I'll go back and I won't be that scary but encountering him is really terrifying for me and the way he chases after you and screams like a madman. Sure. Like that. I was I was actually going back and recording some Outlast footage from my evil within two video where I talked about why I hated the evil within one. And just I had to stop there because I kept getting really uncomfortable consistently running into Traeger and wondering where he is. Is he around this corner? Fuck, there he is. And it really just freaked me out. Yeah. It's like you don't actually care if you if you're going to die. It's more just the presence of him. And this is how I felt when I first played amnesia. I just didn't like it when any of the monsters were were in the vicinity automatically. I was just like, no, go away. And the game fucks with you. It just plays sound clips from them, even if they're not there. You'll just be sitting there like, I don't know. I don't know if they're behind the corner. Like I mentioned that game Visage and whether or not you like the game mechanically. A lot of the audio design is so great that even if you know that an enemy's nearby and that's your your cue to like run the fuck away and get away from them. It's so uncomfortable that that in and of itself regardless of any mechanics or consequences, you just your immediate instinct is I'm just going to run away now. And it's complicated. It's all complicated. I don't. So either you know in fitness, what the collective point here was like to be so scared in that you'd lose all your progress that you in dead space, you're just like, I just want to run away from this thing. I just want to sprint away. And it's like that could offer the scariest experience for somebody, but it could also get someone else being like, oh, man, this thing's probably going to kill me. And I lose all my progress. I'm not playing this again. And again, I just I wonder because he's very convinced that this is like a solution as opposed to an option. A retreat as the best option, making you say, please don't kill me, please don't kill me, please don't kill me as you run. Because if you do die, you can't simply respond with nothing lost. And also consider the office that sometimes that's not true. You'd have time lost, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's the main thing. Possible items you collected and experience you gained. And I don't know. Yeah, it's contextual for whatever game is playing. Yeah, that's the thing. And yeah, he's deliberately missing here because he's about to make the point about how you can waste ammo. And he's he's put a little disclaimer in the bottom left for anybody in chat who feels like they want to be a smart ass. He's saying, hey, I'm deliberately missing here for anybody who won't understand that and I'll leave a shitty comment below. Checkmate atheists. I just feel like you're right, mate. I don't think anybody's really going to assume you missed like seven shots in a row by deliberately about whatever. Maybe they were maybe there are fair enough. Anderson, fair enough. I like how defensive you have to make it. The fight goes so po- Little bit, little bit. I would have, uh, what I don't understand about it is I would have had a clip of you just unloading a clip into one enemy. You'd be like, oh, you kind of waste an ammo there, you know? I think that answers the question, just fine. And also consider the opposite. That sometimes if a fight goes so poorly for you that you wasted too many healing items and ammo, dying becomes an attractive option since you can restart and have a better second take. You may- This is a problem that's actually in a couple of video games for example, RPGs where you choose a particular class and outfit and then you find out about two hours into the game. Oh, if I was that class I could have done this. I might restart. Just because- Yeah, I'd say one of the few pitfalls Deus Ex Human Revolution. If you built stealth once you got to the boss fight, it's like- Oh, shit. So flashbacks. Question super quick. Lord Zarkon in the chat said time loss is not a problem. Well, I disagree. I suppose you have to say it's subjective then? I don't understand how you could possibly- That really is. Well, I just went on about like, you know, the six hours for me would be like, you know, half a day's, well, almost a full day's shift in work, you know? That's like, that's not something that I could just throw away. Also, he's arguing for total time loss versus a select amount of time loss. So it's just where you draw the line then. Yeah, how much time is too much time? And again, that's what I was trying to say about how devs create checkpoints. They're trying to find that balance because it is an actual thing. And it is absolutely subjective. For me, if I get 20 minutes removed, I might go, yeah, I'll give it a shot. Again, 20 minutes is fine. Then some other guy could be like, 20 minutes, fuck off. I'm going to go play Mario. I'm going to go back to Mario. And again, so I've just said, you're like, ah, this is so flimflammy. I don't know, there's nothing I can work with. You may even get angry at the monster when it takes too long to kill you so you can see the reload screen. Such a bizarre point. It's not going to happen. Oh, I didn't get to try the other ones. Flaws. They're trying the option menu. They must have a load game option. But he goes as far as saying, like, you know, your waste resources, therefore death becomes a good option because you'll get reset on those resources, which is like, yeah, that happens in games. I wouldn't disagree with that. You would be happy if I added like a suicide button for those like rare situations where you just want to get over with. But then to argue, it's like, ah, but it's so fucking annoying, especially when you're like, you want to die and the enemies take too long to kill you. It's like, what mode are you playing on? With three Dacroborx, take this long to kill you. One of those we found you did missing purpose. Because that's another thing we've kind of gone over already. But I just wonder, it's like, you know, the dead space has like harder difficulties. Like, do you consider it a different experience to be on easy versus the hardest? I'm assuming you do. For example, the outlast's hardest difficulty is permadeath isn't not. I'm asking this sort of to chase, I guess. Yeah, I think there's lunatic mode where you have to do it all in one shot. So yeah. Yeah. Does that work? And I would definitely argue that that... Yeah, it makes it way fucking more terrifying because there are a few moments in that game where you can just get one shot or cornered. And maybe he'd be like, no, you need more changes to make that work. I'm not really for or against Joseph Anderson in this case. Like, I understand where he's coming from, but I understand why you guys are sort of picking apart his points because it's all kind of like you said, it's all sort of relative in his personal opinion. Which, yes, everyone in chat is saying, did you even read the title? It says, why horror games don't scare me. Yes, we get that, but we're talking about... We're applying the same level of scrutiny if I was to come into Discord one day and say, hey, guys, horror games don't scare me because when I die, I just get resurrected. And then the rest of them don't just go, okay, that's cool. They go, what do you mean by that? And then they ask me questions, and I don't go, guys, it's just weird. It's just like, stop fucking, it's just a conversation. It's okay, nobody's dying. Moller, have you ever considered having one of your very vocal objectors in chat just like come on Discord and join the call and kind of like give his stance and just kind of have a debate about it? I mean, it would be great if we got someone with not only a good mic, but great arguments, but I feel like that's inviting potential trolls. Yeah, that's the thing. I feel like if we did invite someone that's constantly complaining in the chat. If someone was constantly complaining in the chat and then we got them in the call, it would probably be very revealing. Also, I would love to help Joseph Anderson on the stream, but there's, I don't think there's any way he would ever do that. No, no. I'm pretty sure he knows about me. I doubt he's a fan considering my so much serious. I can speak about myself, like whenever I'm on, in my videos, I'm like intellectual and I have a lot of very educated research points. But as soon as you get me in a live stream, you realize how fucking retarded I actually am. That kind of ruins the whole image of like credible professional critic. Anyway. Here is that. Of course, you can't slap permadeath onto a game, step back and then consider it a job well done as you pat yourself on the back. The only reason it works in Don't Starve is because each playthrough is different. Each attempt is a challenge to live as long as possible and you learn and then try again with each reach. It's a guarantee of death in Don't Starve, right? So you got like the inevitability? Don't Starve will always end with a death. I think so. There might be a mechanic or like an item or something like that that like gives you a saving throw, but otherwise, yeah. I was just going to say like that's absolutely an argument that someone could make for why they'd never want to play this and they can't get immersed in it because there's no victory. You know, I'd be like fair enough. There are certain things that you wouldn't be able to do in horror games if they did permadeath though. Let's get real. Well, there are some still counters this. Monstrum has randomly generating enemies and resources and it's a quick horror game. So I'm still, I want to know if that's what he would be like. You know what? This is the perfect game. This is it. They did it. I don't think he's played it. Yeah, this is a kind of bizarre hill to die on for fucking Don't Starve together or whatever. It's such a strange example and I feel like it's because he hasn't played enough horror games and I'm not saying this condescendingly. I mean, he hasn't actually gone out and searched for the game he's describing. You know, he's like, I wish you'd be like me being like, I wish it was like a war simulator that like was authentic and did it like World War Two and had a bunch of like, you could fight in the air and fight with people. But like Call of Duty is so goofy and like I just can't believe it. And then you got like Medal of Honor, which just doesn't work for me. I wish there was one out there and people are like, play Battlefield. You go, what's Battlefield? And you're like, oh man. But that's what it feels like. I just want to reconcile Monstrum. I think that's my biggest thing because there's probably other ones that I don't know about, but I do know about that one at least. Oh, actually, there's one. What about like a game like Eve, where like you're going to lose like real world value money and your ship's being destroyed? What does that do for him there? That's going to be the biggest horror game. A game where you strap yourself into like a chair that stabs you when you get stabbed in the game. What if that works? I bet there's real money to be had there, honestly. There could be a Twitch like series, couldn't there? Yeah, you would get so many. I think they have that, but on the scale of like pads that electrocute you or something, right? There's probably something that exists like that already. Well, seeing retards like put dog collars on their necks and like give themselves shocks and all that, but I don't know. In that case, it has to exist. Oh, someone said have you played Observer? You've played Avenue Al. Does that have any relevance? Actually, it's quite unsettling. It's what's the what's the re-spawn mechanic like in that? It just takes you back like a, you know, tense like, you know, a minute or two into the game. There's segments in it where like kind of like a tone down or like a more stripped down version of amnesia or whatever, where there's enemies walking around like a strict pattern and you just got like, you know, like ducking covered behind like chest high walls or other. But you just come back or is there a narrative? If you die, yeah, yeah. It's just really, it has got a lot of really good tension in it. And I love the atmosphere, it's dripping in it. Also, Mahler, I want to say, would you like me to read donations since I'm kind of the chat boy right now? Oh, I usually with eFap will, so like at the end of this video, I'll read them all in one. Okay. Because I'll just say really quickly, Sald King donated in 1999 and said, can't save the climax of the eFap, but so happy to finally catch one live, love listening while I work and I'll suck as many danguses as I have to be on one. Oh, I don't know if we have a dangus requirement to get onto. I mean, how many did you have to suck for me to get on you? Oh, I don't think I had to suck any. Not even a single dangus. So yeah, I'm not sure who's been spreading these lies. I reckon it's probably Chase. I do it for an eJer, frankly. So I lost count. I was wondering if you were going to jump in Chase with like, what? You didn't have to do a heady? I love your penis. What can I say? It's just a life pattern. Quintin reviews is a horror game. Even here, however, having to start over can carry too harsh of a punishment when you've been playing for long enough and can cause you to give up. Transplanting the system onto a linear story game wouldn't work. Other changes would have to be made too. My God, that music choice. What the fuck? He pretty much just said what we've gone over the whole, what he's just described will be unimmersive to lots of people. And he said, and you can't just plonk it onto a game because it might not even work. Let's see how he... Because to me, I'm like, well then, that's it then. We've just described that there are differences in genre. You could choose whichever one you like, but I'll see how he... Brastic transformation into a rogue-like is an obvious one. Randomized areas, monsters, traps, and even pieces of a story would work well in a horror game. Making you constantly uncomfortable and never going through the motions brings with it a lot of what horror needs to be successful, in my opinion. Throw in some subtle ways of messing with you, sort of like what Eternal Darkness did on the GameCube, and you may have the right recipe for a horrific game with permadeath stakes that won't be frustrating. Or maybe. But I mean, I already consider amnesia to basically be fucking peak horror, so I'm good. Jenna Hart said a boring film is a horror film, because every time you fall asleep, you have to restart, lol. It's stupid. But yeah, he said for me and in my opinion, so... You know, there's not much to work with here. He just said, he would be like me saying, the way to fix FPS is to literally just add a god that shoots lightning every once in a while, and then I go, it could make it work better. It's just my opinion. And so you guys are like, okay then. Yeah, sure. Fuck right off then. That's his opinion, we gotta respect it. Yeah, okay. Until dawn on the PlayStation 4, shows that another way is possible, because it's the only modern horror game that has made me uncomfortable through its mechanics. Another read badly. In case you're unfamiliar, until dawn presents itself as a typical slasher horror movie that you... I don't know what to say here, I didn't find it very scary at all. I could not find until dawn scary. I found this so hilarious. I can concede the point of like, the game from the get-go tells you like your choices matter and stuff fucking everywhere. Oh shit. It tells you, you know, knowing that your characters in any given moment can just die immediately and it'll change something about the story, even if you like the character. I can understand that person. How could you like any of these characters? Not only that, but like, I was convinced that... I'm not even sure the game was trying to be horror. I thought it was kind of trying to be... kind of campy. Oh, well, Paula, do you remember when I played it over yours with... Oh yeah, we laugh at a loads... I remember how the character Jessica got killed. Like, she just... Like, I just chose her to go down the safe path. I remember it one for one. So you were the boyfriend and your choice was to go down like a slippery sort of slope thing that said fast or you could go on the stairs, which is safe. Yeah. You chose safe and it caused the character to die. And it's the most... Oh yeah, well, fuck that. So when they say your choices matter, they're right in that your choices will lead to people dying, but you'll have no fucking part in it. They'll just be like, oh, I guess I choose... It's like choose this side of the coin or this side of the coin. You go that way. It's basically that you're mostly not gonna know. And yeah, hilarious dialogue, as someone just said, yeah, the dialogue's fucking stupid. But also, I mean, it didn't take long for me to figure out who the main characters were, and they were gonna last till the end. The main characters were... Action man, long girl. And the action guy, yeah. I thought the technology, just to make like the deaths gory and then some of the special effects in that game was pretty all right. I didn't like it at all. Genuinely, but... But I don't really have much to say about it in terms of a horror game. I was like, nah, this... It was more just like an interactive, heavy rain-esque movie. Yeah, it was a bit of fun just to see what happens. Alex started to actively... This is the best story. He decided about halfway through, he wanted to kill all the characters. So there's this sequence. There's this sequence where there's a boyfriend and girlfriend. Genocide route. The girl is like putting her hand down. She's like, save me. And then you can choose to save yourself or her. And Alex is like, fuck it, I'll save myself. Screw her. And he jumps. And then the game offers it to you again. And Alex is like, no, absolutely save myself. And what the irony is, when I played the game, I chose to save her, which kills you. That's what happens. You die and then she survives. But if you choose to save yourself, you both live. Yeah, exactly. And so Alex inadvertently saved more than I did by trying to kill them. It's bizarre. Except that part. That part got fucked up. And so, yeah, I would say like, you cannot ignore how stupid the choice system is until going for the horror aspect. Like that is the interaction. Also, if I break on your leg, I kept resting the control of my leg and had those weird like six axes motion sense a bit with the controller, didn't it? So is it until dawn's like telltale? It's like, yes. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It was just as cheesy, well, wally in and campy as fuck. Hold on on the PlayStation 4 shows that another way is possible because it's the only modern horror game that has made me unconquerable through its mechanics. In case you're unfamiliar until dawn presents itself as a typical slasher horror movie that you control different characters in throughout its runtime. You make decisions that cause changes in the story and sometimes these can result in death permanently. These dumb teenagers do not come back after. Other than if you restart the game and then they wouldn't die because it would be a different fucking timeline just like every other game. That's a dope. How is that different? Explain to me. You're like, oh, well, that's a different game save. It's like, yeah, but that's exactly the same level of immersion. You can be like, well, they could be alive. All I need to do is go back to the main menu. For him, it seems to be that it's all in one sitting. You can choose chapters as well, can you? I think you can. Well, basically, you can go back and make changes that will bring them back or kill characters. It's your choice. Afterwards, please do not think I am parading until dawn around as a wildly successful horror game because it has huge problems, but it's undeniable that knowing characters can die adds a great amount of tension whenever they're in danger. But only if you empathize and care about them, which I've found impossible to do with these rats. I was on board with Alex laughing at their deaths. There's a great highlight on one of the videos where a guy's face gets bashed in and Alex just bursts out laughing. And it's because of the tone. Alex was convinced that this was a funny game, not a horror game. Because like slasher horror films, they were called horror, but most of the time, the deaths are just hilarious and you're just waiting for the next annoying... Like, well, most of the time, the teenagers just swear. If you're watching a Rob Zombie film or whatever, and you're just like, oh, well, these characters just shut the fuck up and then they get their heads blown up. Are they supposed to be teenagers because they all look like they're fucking... Oh, no, no, I just mean like in slasher horror films, like, you know, like Halloween or... These are like in their 20s or whatever, of course. But yeah, the principle is the same. They're annoying this fuck and you're just waiting for them to die. And then when they do, you're just like, oh, fucking Ray. You're rooting for Jason at that point. You give a fist bump in the air. You're like, fuck yes. And there are... I would argue that it's definitive. There are characters that are so fucking annoying and until dawn, like the... One of the bratty girls. There's a dumb blonde and a bratty Asian girl. And they're the most, like, rapid characters. You're just like, oh, my God. The Asian one is the absolute worst because even when you, like, save her or protect her, our nice friends are just... Yeah, she lasts really long no matter what. I think most people are really happy when she dies. I don't get me wrong. I don't... I like... I do enjoy... I did enjoy playing it, but it was not like... I was not... There's no tension or... It's not scary. No. There was no spooks. I'm sorry, Joseph, but, you know... It's not a spooky whole game. Really quickly, SinemaSinSin says to play devil's advocate here, when a character, and until dawn dies, you can continue your playthrough in games where you cannot continue your playthrough without a resurrection. It's impossible for a death to have a lasting impact unless you stop playing. Right, but I mean, like, what can you do about that other than restart the whole game from scratch? You need to be able to play the game. You know, you need to be able to play the game. When you change that mechanic for me, you're changing the sub-genre. And so you can choose to play that if you want. If it gets you more immersed, go find those games. But you're not arguing why this game isn't as scary. You're arguing why it's a different genre. I know you might be like, well, he's arguing why it's less scary for him. I'm like, yeah, that's fine, but it's not a fault of the game or a fault of the genre. It's literally something that you don't connect with. Like, we've been arguing this the whole time. It's just like me saying, you know, mystery doesn't work for me because there's always a twist. Like, oh, I'm bored. Can we watch anime? Especially the first time when all you know is that decisions matter and you're not aware of the specific place as the character can meet their end, which is a way... That's precisely what pulls me out of the game where I have no impact on how things go other than flipping coins every time. That shit bothered me because I actually took it seriously my first time around. I was like, oh, cool. This will be... Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, I remember the start of it where, like, then one of the characters have a BB gun or something like that and like has the option to shoot or not. Like, you throw a snowball at a bird or something. Like, it gives you the option to kill an innocent animal or whatever. And then... You killed it. Also, fuck, generic shewer says, there are lots of actual games where you can make choices that kill off characters. Sweak it in, Chrono Trigger, Quest for Goi, Resident Evil, all of them closer to horror than until dawn. And that's a really good point because the bad ending of Chrono Trigger, I don't know if you ever played Chrono Trigger, Malor, but it's fucking... It's an ingenious RPG. When... The whole point of the game is to stop this looming evil creature who's, like, burrowed in the core of the earth to, you know, to stop him from destroying the earth. And if you lose in the final battle against him, it actually plays out as one of the canon endings and it's horrifying because a big message pops up. You hear the monster screech at you and then it says, but the future refused to change. And it's this heavy, like, you were not enough. And it's, like, really, really heavy, especially when I was fucking six, he was old and I played it, like, come and slice me. I was like, oh my god, this is on my shoulders. You're pathetic, Shakespeare. I can't believe this. Yeah, no. Well, this is the thing. I feel like there's a great conversation in this video that just doesn't make it there because there's so few examples and so little time so we're just like, oh, okay. Bye-bye. Yeah, sure. All you know is that decisions matter and you're not aware of the specific place as the character can meet their end, which is a way until Dawn can reinforce the idea that death can become meaningless when you look up after you're done and find out that the tension in many scenes was faked because characters can't die there. Something similar could be done in other... That would be like movies, right? Which we haven't really heard him account for. Like, how does he deal with that? What is commentary on that is, I wonder? Which is weird because his point is that the films do scare him, but the games don't. So he needs to spend more time on that. And he accidentally just alluded to the fact that until Dawn is more of a movie than a game. By the way, it's interesting that he keeps using footage from the evil within because that is one of the worst horror games that I've played so far away. I can tell you that if there was anything close to horror from the evil with it, it was within the first, like, 10 minutes. And if that... Because that's... It like, does so many of the things that... I mean, maybe it's to support his point, of course. I'm like, half paying attention at this point. I'm just enjoying it as a banter. But like, in the evil within, every time you die, and every boss has a one-hit kill mechanic, every time you die, you have to go all the way back to the start of fight. Like, that is such a fucking guy. I just... I don't even have a point. I just want to say, fuck the evil within. Then you can suck like that. I'm on your team. Evil with it took so damn long to complete as well. And I did a video on it. If any of you... Watch it. Just saying. This is a little plug right there. Chaseface on YouTube. Search for the evil within. Go. I was gonna ask... I wanted to ask everyone, has anyone here played Deadly Premonition? I have that game. Go on. Only for a little bit. Let's see. Only for the... All right. Because I really wanted to know what he thinks about that game. Because that game has all the cliches and tropes to try and be a horror game, but it's played out so cheesely bad. It's hilarious. It's like completely unintentional. Well, supposedly. I sometimes doubted it and questioned if it was intentionally bad, but it's such a fun experience to watch. I would love to see what he thinks about that as a horror game. Me too. Also, there was somebody... I can't remember who it was I was talking to. Somebody came up with an example of a horror game where you can't die, but is typically known as being scary. Is there anybody who can... It was a game I had, prepared, thinking about it, but I've completely forgotten now. I mean, what I can argue is literally the opening 40 minutes of Amnesia. I wonder how Joseph Aniston felt about that because you can't die, right? So there's no death, but there's loads of tension. I think getting off the topic of hermit death and dying and checkpoints in general, I think that some of the best horror games I've ever played are ones where the AI is really good and it makes you feel like you're not just fighting against something that is a computer program, but actually living and breathing. For example, probably not like the perfect example, but Resident Evil 3, Nemesis stalks you throughout that entire game and he's so tenacious and he's so cunning and he finds these opportunities where he just completely catches you off guard that it feels like the way that they've scripted him like he actually wants to kill you and he actually has a lot on the line to hunt you down. And something about just that tenacity made it so terrifying for me knowing that he would try to get me no matter what, like nothing would slow him down. Oh, is it true you couldn't die in PT? Yeah, I guess. Because that would be an example I'd have for Joseph to account for. I wonder what he thinks. Yeah, I guess the comment for that is just that it wasn't a finished product, I guess, but yeah. Well, there was like a teaser on it, so I don't know. Yeah, it wasn't a long... Well, this is kind of what I said about the opening to Amnesia and just a hard game, scary up till he dies. Well, that's... Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. Oh, well, you can die in PT. Oh, okay. There we are. Yeah, yeah. Because like, see, for me, it's the whole idea of what is leading up to your death. Like, it's okay, whether you die or not, I'm more concerned about whether the creature itself is what scares me instead of just the looming threat of the checkpoint waiting for me. Well, yeah, because it's interesting what you said about like Nemesis, but in Amnesia, they made efforts to... So you're like miles ahead of the monster, you're obviously supposed to be running away. The soundtrack was supposed to make you feel like you was right on your heels because then they're able to rubber band it really easily as in like they'll push the monster closer and closer, but then if you start slowing down, it'll fuck up. They might slow him down a bit to make sure they want you to escape. They do not want you to die. They want you to escape and be scared because that's like the primary experience. Yeah. A lot of it is about framing. Like, for example, since Dead Space has been so fucking prominent in this video in the very first part where they're like, run, Isaac, and you have to run to the elevator. They have it scripted. I'm pretty sure intentionally so that right when you run up to the elevator, it takes just a moment too long to open. And then one of the necromorphs is like right on your ass and you're supposed to go and just like run in and feel that sort of like, icky, icky, get off him. And of course, you know, the first time that you play it and when it opens the doors up, then you're like, uh-oh, he's got me. And then the door slams shut and cut him in half. It'll be a switch. Yeah, we'll try and get back on the tracks of what Joseph's talking about. Look up after you're done and find out who the attention in many scenes was faked because characters can't die there. What are you talking about? Something similar could be done in other games without resorting to permadeath leading to a game over. Imagine a Yoshi's island style relay of characters along for the spooky ride and if you die, then that's one dead from the roster and you move on to the next one with the other one like inside or little nightmares. Death could result in- Oh, it skipped for me, but I was gonna say, the idea of you play a game with like a team of four and then if you die as one, you move to the next. It's like, I try it, but I don't think that's a solution really. Yeah, because for me, it would be like, well, surely if like, if you're particularly shit at the game, then you're not gonna have enough time to establish the character to like empathize and like, you know, like want them to live. If they literally just like, oh, hi, I'm your childhood friend. And they're dead. It's like, oh, so long. Tension, you know, it's gone. Just to clarify, he wasn't talking about Yoshi's Island. He was saying a Yoshi's Island style like relay where it's like multiple characters. Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I figured that out. I thought that too. When he said Yoshi's Island style, I was like, what? And then- Oh, yeah, like, I'm not gonna talk about like, I'm not gonna take Mario characters like seriously. You know, that's not their purpose. Just to bring up that random dude. I was correcting you guys. I was correcting chat because some people were like, really Yoshi's Island? Well, he did use Don't Starves. But you have just a random dude in that universe. That's the thing. And then the random dude goes, I didn't like that game because I knew that if I died, I would just end up being one of the team. And then if I died as them, it would be one of the other team. It was only really scary when I got down to the last dude. What do you do for that guy? You know what I mean? Like, I'm just saying, this is different. It's not, it's not a- It's kind of like a, there'll never be a perfect solution. No, I don't think there will be just like- You have to put all of your eggs in the basket of making sure that up until the moment of dying, it is the most panchingly terrifying thing. To bring it back, it's just the thing I said earlier. Like, there was a friend of mine who just didn't get scared by horror films, but he watched Paranole Activity and he came out of it and he was like, that was a little bit scary. That was probably the most scared I've ever been. I wasn't really scared, but it was the closest I've been to getting there. And to me, I'm just like- I thought there was something down there. It's like the, it's whatever you personally require to bring that wall down between you and the content. This is why I said at the end of my Outlast series, like, I wouldn't blame anybody for finding it the scariest thing in their entire lives. I wouldn't blame it, because I think all the elements are there. It's so subjective. Jenna Hart said, that's Yoshi's story, not Yoshi's- that's Yoshi's story, not Yoshi's island. God, I hate this guy more. You said Yoshi's story twice. Yeah, I tried to correct it, I thought. No, you got to take the opportunity to rip it into a joke. The rage is making you form. I was trying to help you, Jenna, I'm sorry. No, you need to sing one as Yoshi's island. That's the second choice. The rage is making me form. Move on to the next one, with the other one gone forever. Or in a game like Inside or Little Nightmares, death could result in being moved to a different line of progression for a worse ending. And then an even worse one after that, if you die again. See, the problem becomes right. So we've just been arguing about how when you die in, like, Alan Wake, you end up in a different, arguably timeline, arguably dimension. It's whatever you can put in your head canon. And if he says, nah, what it is is actually a reset. Like, let's be honest, you could be like, well, what you've just said, even if that's in the narrative, if they say on a big piece of text, and so Jimmy was taken to a different universe in which he did not die. You'd be like, yeah, that's just bullshit. It's actually the mechanic of just, I'm just alive. Death doesn't mean anything. Give us a quick question. Has anyone played True Crime? Streets of the LA or New York? I played it briefly. Right. So at least in True Crime, Streets of LA, from what I remember, there were parts of the story where depending on the outcome of that particular moment, they, the story would divert, like in a timeline, you know, like, later on, well, when you complete the game, you could go back and see like the actual timeline and then go back to those options and choose the different option. Most of the time it would be like, if you got defeated by the boss, the boss would run away instead of like, you know, you retry and start again and do it. It wasn't a horror, but like, those kind of like, alternatives to timelines that like, it's a lot, well, not that it can't be done, but it is a little shit ton of effort, especially to make it all concise and still like have investment in it without like, because again, if it goes back to, if you just kill off all the interesting characters, it quite loses the interest and the tension from it. Again, this is in my opinion, you know, but yeah. Well, this is, this is why as a subject, I'm just like, you got to have to get into some serious mechanical discussions before you can say anything with more than just saying, well, if you're not scared by it, that's you, man. Everyone else gets scared by it. Oh, some people get scared. That's kind of a detailed orients and a little prick like you, Moller. But nobody wants to have that discussion. It's crap. If someone just goes, well, I did it. I got scared by it. I guess you didn't do it. Well, it just reminds me of the conversations about like the last Jedi. Well, I liked it. It's like, of course, it's like, Joseph Anderson put this video up for a reason. It wasn't just to say, our games don't scare me. It's like, I know people would be like, well, he's explaining why. And I'm just saying that, yeah, but how does he, he's not accounted for so many little things that you can sort of poke holes in here. He's not qualifying enough for you, you're saying? I mean, I'm surprised he's qualifying enough for anybody. I like how everyone in chat is just commenting about how unfitting the Undertale music It's up to him is fine. The idea here is that you can still continue and finish the game if you get grabbed by the Ghoulis, but that you really, really don't want to. The alternative is that horror games require more suspension of disbelief on the player's part and that you should meet them more than halfway in order. That's not necessarily true. More suspension of disbelief, because you could argue, like, you know, like League of Legends, for example, like to get into it, you'd be like, you're gonna have to, if one was to try and get into it, as if you were actually on the battlefield, there's a lot of things you'd have to ignore to be able to cut right into that. I wouldn't necessarily say horror games have the biggest amount of required suspension disbelief, but you know, I guess that's subjective too. Master Clockwork said, come on guys, you're almost there. You should meet them more than halfway in order to be scared. I reject this idea because I don't have to do that in order to appreciate. Why? Whoa, sorry. Was he rejecting? The idea that you have to, just play it again. I can't. The idea here is that you can still continue and finish the game if you get grabbed by the Ghoulis, but that you really, really don't want to. The alternative is that horror games require more suspension of disbelief on the player's part and that you should meet them more than halfway in order to be scared. I reject this idea because I don't have to do that in order to appreciate scary movies and that I- Yeah, but that's you buddy. Yeah. That's, he knows that's not a good argument, right? Because I could just say the reverse. It'd be like, Joseph, horror games don't, films don't scare me. For all the reasons we've mentioned before, I know that that's just a set. I know that they're just actors. I know that this isn't actually real. I know that these people, Robert Downey Jr. is still alive, so he can't die in this. And then he's like, okay, you have to really have some suspension of disbelief and I'd be like, I don't when I play horror games. And you know, you could be like, it doesn't bother you, the fact that horror games are literally code. I'd be like, no. It gets kind of complicated, doesn't it? Because there really is no perfect solution. And obviously we're not saying there's a perfect solution, but it's going to be impossible to please everyone. That's the point of genres and subgenres. You go and find the thing that works best for you. Yeah. And what he's described exists. You can go get it. Bean just said, can you guys just watch anime? See, finally, someone with some sense comes in. Jesus. Never have to adopt this mindset in order to be impressed by other genres and games. If something in a game is visually stunning or a boss fight hits the right level of challenge and engagement, the game is responsible for getting me there without me having to pretend to be along for the ride. I don't want- I can say the same about movies or books. I can't get into a book because it's just fucking paper and pen. What the fuck's this? Also, Jenna Hart said, it's also a thing that he is saying that he'd want to know every mechanic of how a game works before playing it. Isn't the element of the unknown most of the fear? Yeah, I would say so. Is that something he said? Like, I'm not saying it's not. I'm just clarification. I think she's talking about him. It's also a thing that he is he's saying he'd want to know every mechanic of how a game works before playing it. Do you mean like he wouldn't want to- I mean, I'm guessing he's saying he would jump into amnesia hoping that it's going to have the mechanics he wants and then he's like, oh man, it doesn't, you know. I doubt he wants to know all the mechanics of a horror game before playing it. That's the thing as well. He's clearly not going to do anything like in the next three minutes, but he's not even talking about or counting for like VR horror either. Yeah, like what's his take on VR horror? Where the whole thing is putting you literally in front of the script. Well, you know what I'm getting at. We'll see. Wait, it's- Go ahead, sorry. That's a really good point. I was done. So I was going to say this, I could have made this video why I don't read books and then I go because books are just weirds and there's no actual tangible information as in when you watch a movie in a game you get a landscape, you get a character's look, it's only described in a book and so blah blah blah. Then someone makes a video saying like, you know, books are the only thing that work for me because they tell me, they describe stuff so I get to imagine a world and I get to live in my head but this amazing and mystical like everything is for me but when you lock something down like Game of Thrones into an actual series everything's definitive and everything's answered and this is how it looks. There's no, you don't get to imagine it anymore and it takes away everything from it and it's like, you can make both of those videos. And on the topic of like VR being, you know, more engaging and immersive than normal horror games, that's true because like Dreadhauls for example is a game that's like creepy enough but not terribly creepy but as soon as you play that in VR it becomes so much more intimate and personal. It's no longer just me navigating around and keeping my guy from dying. Now it's like they're in my face they're screaming in my ears like it's a whole different experience. Oh they said because he's never played VR horror you want him to comment on something he doesn't have experience in maybe like so then he can't be definitive. He's saying why horror games don't scare me and he hasn't even played all of the horror games so Bozinga. All of the subgenres. This is another problem with this video he's playing it as if he's actually gone through all of his options which he hasn't. Yeah well when he's like referenced like well like eight games of whiff of footage. I've thought about making like a more all-encompassing video on like horror games and the horror genre but the problem is like I haven't played the you know Panumbra series of games. There's a lot of the horror like I honestly haven't played most of the Silent Hill games so I feel like I would just be kind of speaking from a place of ignorance if I did try to be a voice of authority on that. So that's one thing that's kind of weakening his argument a little bit. Yeah it happens. It's a kind of a limited scope of games. And that's that's kind of what we're concluding here. It's like we want to see what he says after he does X, Y and Z. Yeah if he was clearly if he conveyed a lot more competence and sort of expertise in all the different kinds of horror games and gave a lot of different examples and showed a lot of different instances I feel like he would do a much better job of convincing me personally but he's really just sticking with it. So we have to clarify every statement that's how this works. Someone said do you have to comment and do you have to play everything in a genre to comment on it. No it's when you make a comment that counters something that already exists. It's when it's like it fucking helps. Yeah it does help to play the whole of the genre before you say a genre is X. Which is again I wouldn't bother there's no much point it's like what is in every horror game you go uh I don't know atmosphere it's like nope. No and it's like no not every horror game has that. Playing a horror game. I've seen a sense sense said well this has been fun but I'm off to drink until I wake up on the floor of the McDonald's bathroom I'll let you decide what the f*** I'm joking. Alright see you around. That's real horror there. That's a horror. You're like oh there's always the threat of of danger in every horror game. You go nope. There's games that have been made that have absolutely no intention to put you as a threat just to present ideas to you that are spooky. Something like that. It's genre is very very broad. There's so many things you can do within every genre and that's because genre itself is only supposed to just be an identifier. Basically if I'm going to describe a game to you I can start with genre. So it puts you in a mindset of like oh I can expect some things and then I get more specific. Like these are the mechanics. And that's the subgenre and so on. So somebody without warning this guy is desperately trying to be like super bunny hop that ends up being I hate everything. Oh yeah I like that. That's a star. That's a burn. This video is called why video games don't scare me. Not why video games aren't scary. He's not being definitive on purpose. Yes he is. He just said solutions for horror games and what was the line earlier that um game games have the problem because he doesn't have to come as far for immersion like he does with with movies. As yeah and it's like that that's kind of what makes it complicated. As he starts off subjective why they're not why don't scare me but then he kind of goes into the objective and talks about the genre just like you know objectively. And this is side by side with the fact that he's highlighting options that he may not have experimented with with games that exist. Monstrum would be the one thing I want him to play desperately just to get his perspective on it and to explain to me why Monstrum doesn't satisfy his requirements because it does everything he's said would work for him in this. You know after after this video every single good horror game that comes up people are going to link him to it and be like what does this fucking scare you tough guy? Or is it you took it for this one? Just gonna haunt him now this one video. Horror games to give me the opportunity. And again I think he'd be fine if I would have cut this video right down you could even make it like a minute. And all you need to say was um I really don't get immersed into horror games because it always pulls me out whenever I die. And I know that's not a thing many people experience themselves it doesn't bother them at all. Really bothers me. That's it. And you could be like well that's boring and I'd be like exactly. So when you actually start adding references that's where you can start actually comparing and ripping them apart. If I tell you I don't like Black Panther that you go yeah that's fine. But then if I tell you because Sonic the Hedgehog is in it you'll be like that's not true. And then I go that's my opinion. You're like that's not true. It's a jumping off point if this was only extremely fucking short. Yeah. To needy to role play as someone who's scared I want to have no choice but to be scared because that's what terror really is. Oh my god. This is what real terror is. See I actually stopped before this and I just I just texted you and I said yeah okay I think I get the idea. Like early after the halfway point I was like I think I know where this is going. There's real terror. To have no choice but to be scared because that's what terror really is. It comes at you with surprising potency hits you with a jolt and leaves you both hot. That's not true. Using the evil within footage when you're praising scary things. So triggered right now. And with his goofy music too it's just such a jumble. Like what's your message? You should play a fucking temp shop though. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Just to see who the fucking makes it. Beethoven's fifth just throw that in there. But yeah, just the idea that he just said it should jolt use your dribble. I was like nope, nope, nope. There's no should in horror. Not a thing. There's no should in any genre really because you can always stretch and you can always do a little thing here. Do a tweak here. This is what terror should do. It's like, you know what terror should do? Terrify you. And if someone says yeah, Outlast terrified me but Amnesia didn't. Mario terrifies me but Sonic doesn't. I just be like, Have any of you guys played Visage? It's fairly new. It's only like a month or two old. I have not. It's kind of PTSD coming. Obviously it's going to drop parallels because you're in an abandoned house and there's like spooky ghosts like kind of creeping up on you invisibly. But I definitely recommend you guys watch a play through of it, like including everyone in the chat. Watch someone else play it. Play it yourself. It actually does a lot really, really well. I'll get into that more videos over but that currently that's like my number one horror game. I actually want to make a video on it just commending a lot of mechanics to it because it's so it keeps you on your fucking toes. It's really good. The cause to be scared is real terror. Yes. Have no choice, but to be scared because that's what terror really is. It comes at you with surprising potency, hits you with a jolt and leaves you both hot and cold at the same time. Just like the jump scare that's about to appear at the end of the sentence. Just kidding. I wouldn't do that to you. Do you know why he's accurate saying hot and cold there because if he did have a jump scare it would have been confusing because of the stupid music he had. Like You'd be like, what the fucking what? Like what? Did you just Yeah. About to appear at the end of the sentence. Just kidding. I wouldn't do that to you. Death isn't the only way to inflict punishment for being caught by a monster. In fact, as always, my proposed ideas aren't meant to be actual things that could be done, but rather demonstrations of what a game could look like on a surface level. And these games exist. Go find them, Joe. In this case, it's to make monsters genuinely terrifying while you were. Oh, fuck off. Make monsters genuinely terrifying. You see, this is when I feel like his weaknesses in the script. Use true, real, and genuinely. None of those things mean anything. Tell me what true horror, genuine horror, and real horror are. Genuinely terrifying while you are in control of the game. A failed state may force you to make a difficult choice in the game's story or ask you to choose which supporting character will receive punishment. No, I mentioned this to you before. I think we talked about it the other day, but what what like there would eventually be a point if a fail if what the fail statement that there was some impact on the story directly. Eventually it would reach a point where if you died too many times it would stop having any effects. So this is an imperfect solution. Yeah, it just delays delays the same problem he has. Yeah, exactly. Eventually he'd still not like it. So what do you do? And I guess the point was like, Joseph, you just wanted to be real life, but you don't actually die for real. Like somehow. And then I think VR might be the solution just to get him so immersed that even a death can bring him back in, you know. I don't know if that'll do it for him. I don't know what'll do it for him. I just hope you get there, Joe, because man, being being just want to see you happy, Joseph. Yeah, we just want to see you happy. This is really just an intervention. We want to make sure you can play video games again. I don't want to save you. We're doing this for you. This is what this is an intervention for Joseph. Absolutely. Joseph Asin. Notion. Notion in the chat, but he wants to play with real humans that die. He's like, he's just buying people. The deep web is true horror. Play my game. Stake. The balance here is to never make this punishment result in a game that is worse to play after that point. Just like a setback caused by death should never become a tedious trip through repeated content, no matter what. The tedious is subjective, my man. What can you do? It's like, again, if you're impatient, you know, a lot of these games are going to be objectively flawed, but it's like, what's the alternative? That's the one thing I'm confused about is. Well, let's think about it, I guess. Like, if somebody wanted to make a dead space like horror game where it has characters in a story, how do you make it to where your choice, your deaths impact it, but eventually you'd reach a point where they stop impacting or if you forced them to restart, how would it not be tedious? You can't make a game like that. So what can you do? Think of the most energetic and bombastic piece of content ever. There'll be someone out there who goes, I was boring. You'll be like, why? You go, it was just balls to the wall, constant action, that doesn't faze me. And there's a lot of people, like when I was younger, I was a teenager. If something was popular, like Halo Call of Duty, what have you, my default, just because I was a little cunt, was I would just be like, you know, I don't like it. No, yeah, I know what you mean, especially people out there. Wrapping something that's like beloved and then being like, I don't get it. Yeah, like I love Undertale and I understand that the fan base is like complete cancer and it's a lot of like young children, much like the FNAF series. So it's like that really gets at some negative points, but I can still enjoy it. That's why the fact that there's other people out there that hate it. Hey, FNAF has pyramid F, maybe Joe would like FNAF. I think it does, right? Am I crazy? FNAF is a horror game masterpiece. I mean, let's be fair. It has the technically randomly generated enemies in that they'll change which order they attack you every time you play. And there's a lot on the line. If you die, it sends you back to night one. You have resource management in it. Like this could work. I actually like FNAF, like in terms of just a lot of the effort that went into it and just sort of the atmosphere. Like obviously it's got plenty of fucking flaws. On a mechanical level, like I can understand where the appeal comes from in terms of like balancing all of the being like I've got to account for each entry, each enemy could come in while also maintaining light and winding boxes and stuff. It's a lot for your head to work with. I just, I don't know. I wasn't, you know what? You know what I'm going to say Chase? It didn't scare me. We need to make a game that will. We need to fix FNAF. This punishment result in a game that is worse to play after that point. Just like a setback caused by death should never become a tedious trip through repeated content no matter what the game is. The other important thing is to make sure mistakes are always the fault of the player if the punishment is going to be so simple. You can't do that. There's always going to be because it's not just about it being factually the player's fault. It's also like, you know, like people say Dark Souls every time you die, it's always the player's fault. Like that's a thing people often say but it's like, it's not true. There are several deaths where you'll be like, oh, that's boxes. Like, how is that? Like, how is that the player's fault? Like, come on. And what I'm saying is a limitation of the medium. It's like video games is pretty tough to make it so that every single time anything bad happens, it's completely on the player. Like, and even if it is, is it important that the player feels that? Because a lot of players won't and then they'll come to the same conclusion you do where they're like, yeah, that's shit. I'm not playing. This doesn't scare me. So what relevance is it ultimately? Like this is why I'm just I think a lot of the issue is that he's kind of speaking as if there's like a tear as if there's like games that are objectively undeniably scary versus just these which are kind of scary or could be considered scary. I like he's going through so many subjects. This is why I knew this would be interesting because we've we can how are we doing? Two hours for 11 minutes. Like it's and we're trying to speed it up every once in a while. Trying really hard. That's so much to say. Someone said tedious is subjective. Okay, what if after playing DS2 for 100 hours the game randomly started everything over? That would be tedious, right? Arguing with a line is is different from no line. No, there's going to be someone out there who says that's not tedious. They could be insane. It doesn't matter. It's a subjective. Teediest is a feeling, right? Like let me let me make sure this like the feeling of tedium which is essentially a vision of boredom as far as I know. If you were to say it's repetitive I wouldn't deny that. If you're going to say it's I don't know counterproductive the state or quality of being tedious. So let's look at tedious. I'm curious. I just want to check because you know I haven't looked at the definition for it. Too long slow or dull tiresome or monotonous all of those things are subjective. Is something too long? It's like well everybody's going to have a different take on that. Slow again the same thing. Dull same thing. Tiresome same thing. Monotonous same thing. I suppose you could argue that if I spoke in the same tone I would be monotonous subjectively. But if you had all of your resources in Dark Souls 2 and then they randomly took them away from you and restarted the game wouldn't that be the opposite of monotonous in that you'd have a completely different state compared to what you just had? I think it's just tough to be like objective when it comes to this particular genre that's always been so because the thing is it plays with your psychology and psychology obviously like varies from person to person. Those that can only be things that are objectively terrifying. No. Yeah that's the that's the main problem is we're not really that's why we need to know these words. We're not defining our terms and variables. People are like oh this is so this is so tedious to be like to define every word but it's like I don't know what you're telling me unless I know what you mean by the word. Is Joseph Anderson saying the thing is repetitive or is he saying it's boring? Those two are very different things and I'm happy to agree with one but not the other because all five of us in this call would react very differently to every situation in every game. That's just how it happens. There'll be times when we all sort of agree. Maybe he'd like to just stick to roguelike games since that is like a big thing for him. I'm not being facetious when I say that. I know I agree with you. I don't play puzzle games because I just do not have the attention span or the maturity or the patience to do any of that shit. So I just don't play them but I don't go around saying like puzzle games are not gratifying. They're just not. Yeah and if you said why puzzles games don't don't puzzle me. And you're like I'm too smart for those puzzles. And it's also possible that when you're when you're a stupid little kid you don't understand anything. So you can throw any horror game your way and you'll be really impressed like holy shit that was terrifying. But now that you're an adult you understand how game design works and what the rules are. Like for example whenever I play a horror game or any kind of action game no actually just horror games. If I if I know that the game hasn't taught me how to do combat yet then I generally feel safe until it does because then once it teaches you how to use a gun how to equip the gun etc then it's like OK now this is fair. So when a game throws at me a monster that I am actually expected to fight or run away from whichever and it hasn't taught me how to fight yet. That always catches me off guard and I'm always impressed. So this is more of like a discussion about I guess knowledge of game design and that may take you out of the experience. Yeah partially. Because sometimes I watch a TV show where they're trying to pretend like it's reality and I'm like that shot could only have been achieved if the camera was put there and you walk like this could have only been achieved if you shot this twice but you're making it seem like you shot this once even though it's you know reality TV it's like well I can't enjoy this now because now I recognize the farce. Yeah but I don't know like I guess in video games it's a little bit different because you're it's real time. So there's a level of unpredictability to it. Yeah. Also someone in chat said who's the crying human Pepe. That's Mel. No that wasn't me. Sorry to interrupt go on. You know it's really suitable as well as he's staring at the video on the stream. But yes I'm relatively certain he ends it two minutes before the end so we're pretty close to the end here. Yeah but that isn't an issue unique to the horror genre. What is unique is that you're meant to feel frightened for yourself and for the character starring in the game you're playing. A character that is an immortal force of nature that can never be killed only stricken within convenience. But they can be killed. I don't yeah I'm sorry Joe but they can be killed and then you you you respawn like you mean they can't see this is why everybody thinks permadeath is all he's after because you correct that statement to oh I mean they don't permanently die it's like so you want permadeath do you know what permadeath is sorry I'll be really quick but what he needs to do is when he dies in Dead Space in Amnesia in Alan Wake he fucking restarts the game. It kind of seems like he has questions that he doesn't even really understand himself. I don't know if he I don't know if he's properly articulating his point I don't know like I honestly don't know. We can give it a second listen if you guys want. I was going to say one thing it's like did he also inadvertently admit that so it is a horror game because they did intend to pry on you. That's still off the cards. You're right because he said like the one thing you can guarantee when he said that there's the one thing the horror genre is supposed to do. I was like oh what's he going to say and it's like it's supposed to frighten you. I'm like hmm yeah yeah I guess I can do that because I can now creep all your head out your ass now and stop calling it not a horror. No it doesn't scare him it's just not a horror. Neeks of the horror genre. Fuck what is unique is that you're meant to feel frightened for yourself and for the. Because he said it was a failure that the soma is a failure of a horror game. Okay but would it would it not be better to say that a horror game is a game that is attempting to make you feel why is it defined by the reaction from the audience shouldn't it be defined by the intentions of the people who made it. Didn't he didn't he say it's supposed to make you. He said it's supposed to make you feel frightened as opposed to they're trying to make you feel frightened which I guess is the distinguisher because it because this is more me going back to the whole soma comment because I'm sure it's something that you're interested in. Well the obvious the obvious point is just because you weren't scared doesn't mean that one other people weren't scared and two that the author of the the or the publisher or the developer whatever their intention was to scare you just because you weren't scared doesn't mean they failed. Yeah like I guess it's sort of a middle ground you know if I wrote a book set in like the middle ages and it was all about swords and I said this is science fiction you can be like wealth it's not and then you justify it because one character has a wrist watch. One has a wrist watch. See it's sci-fi for the people in medieval times he got that from the web. It's it's middle ground I guess so there's a middle ground between what the developer intended and how the audience perceives it. To remind me Al we had like a conclusion about the conversation that is of genre and it was like what is the purpose of identifying a genre in the first place why do we do it. Well yeah because when it comes down to when you have these people who are saying like you know this game is not X or whatever it's just like okay if I agree that somewhere it's not a horror game what is that. Does that detract from anything does that detract how you know how I experienced it. No I I shout my pants still. Okay does it make me like think less of the game like you know objectively no because well I disagree but like if I just assume I went with it it's like yeah does it actually like knock off points off the scale of like how I rate the game on my head. It's like no it doesn't it's just it's an arbitrary shit place to die on a hill for because it's the same argument with people who say that like you know certain games all games are technically RPGs because you're always role playing someone and it's like what does that prove what does that what what insights like give us how does it change my position on anything it's just a fucking it's a misnomer it's fucking bollocks. I mean any of you want to respond to this problem is and they're referring to us they don't even talk about what Joe is trying to talk about he talks about gameplay systems of horror games. What? Let me put this out there just just for clarification for all the people who Joseph has actually commented on certain people for this he said like you got it thank you you got it why do you think so many people haven't got it like whatever it is yeah I mean if a lot of people fail to understand what you're saying to a certain extent you could go well they're just stupid but at at some point you gotta wonder if you've done something wrong in terms of the way that you've communicated it. Quinton said the same thing about his response to Rags and me that we didn't get the points he was making because we were taking them down piece by piece but then once we had gotten enough proof he was just like okay fine I made a mistake it's like we've gone through this entire video we're responding to the statements made what do you want from us like that's the best we could do I don't think well you just said because he doesn't articulate it well it's like I agree. I would say so like maybe maybe his points would make more sense in a one-on-one conversation but this is the thing you can't blame somebody for failing to understand your argument. Man I gotta defend you there Fringy someone just said when does Joseph Anderson call someone stupid it's like no Fringy wasn't wasn't actually saying that was a quote from Joseph Anderson don't worry what I don't even know how you got that but that's not what he was saying I'm not even sure what that came from. Lord Zarkhan said earlier that we're not trying to think in by the way he's referring to us as they we can see what you're saying it's very rude. He said we're not trying to understand from Joseph's point of view and I asked him how so and he said from his point of view of not being scared the video is him trying to think of ways to change that. Not really I mean he only spent like two minutes proposing alternate ideas and all that don't make sense. We've said several times I know Chase has definitely said it though it was like we can kind of see what he's getting at but he's like he's hard like I said. He's not explaining it super well but like I get the gist of what he's saying I just don't entirely agree. Like I'm not I'm not on the anti Joseph Anderson. I reckon it'd be a great conversation if I was to be able to talk to him about this just to see what he says about all these different mechanics and how these games some of these games exist and how subjective all of this is. Given it as much thought as you have so that might be why he probably. Right he made a video on it and he said that he was going to make it like two years ago is that right like when he when he talks about Soma so you think it's production this long I'm really disappointed oh I love that I doubt he's been working on it since there no no I don't think I would I'm going to pull this is this is my opinion it's not based on facts I think he rushed video out to make it for Halloween. Yeah probably Halloween though didn't he I think it was a day after Halloween after yeah I reckon that he was like shit man Halloween would be a great time to release the video my horror games don't scare me I better throw that together quick. Lord Zarkhan said I agree he doesn't explain it well and I don't agree with most of the video as I'm a bitch. We're all bitches. He redeemed it at the end. Yeah none of us are perfect especially not me. Hell it's called every frame a pause like how bitchy do you have to be to do that. God. Oh I love to chat to him about this though because I think it's an interesting topic. Yeah. But I think his perspective is is a little bit bizarre. Absolutely this is the thing I told you before I started this video up this time I was like how do you do this in 13 minutes because if it was one minute I would be like yep I can totally see this working but 13 that means he has to actually bring in references and there's no way he's going to bring in enough. And you know we've gone through it. Yeah. And that's the case it was assumption but you know. He made a three hour video on Super Mario Odyssey but spent 11 minutes trying genre. I didn't even make it for that video like what was his Mario not to get to what was the just like it. He goes through every he goes through every moon collection and he did say I remember reading this he said that for the people who found the video tedious that was the point it was the idea that he shows you how to collect every one of them. And then you as the as the viewer go man this is boring and then you realize the game was boring so fucking better. Hey man you didn't get it. But it you know it is important to remember though that when it's presented in that manner of course it's going to come across as tedious but when you're actually playing the game it's a totally different like it when you're playing the game it's not a literal list of just things being read out to you. I'd need to watch the video again so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say maybe it did have the intended effect that he actually wanted but I mean if you're going to say for example there's there's 16 ones that you collect by running on the spot for an hour. All you need to do is tell us that really like that's that sounds awful but if you show. He for that for that video he he compiled a one hour and 12 minute video showing how long you have to wait for the you got a moon animation. Just to like just to be like oh this is how long it takes to watch animations. It comes across as like he hated the game. I remember reading Reddit Thresa really pissed at him like and I remember I told Alex about this because I just read it and I could not giggle they were like people shouldn't have a problem with this because Joseph does research he actually played all of the 3D Mario games up to that point. 3D and 2D even but the idea that's probably one of the reasons why he gets so much flat because I actually didn't realize just how many people dislike him or his content or perspectives because I always just thought he was like he made interesting perspectives. I do genuinely I think I get way more more hatred than he does like I think he's relatively. I always thought that he was relatively a golden boy on YouTube a little bit. That's the what I was going to say is that's kind of the main problem when you sort of because with my videos I kind of try to approach from an analytic perspective but I'm not like an analyst and he stretched the imagination so I'm totally open to be corrected but it's interesting because I guess he does sort of brand himself as like an analysis guy so that means whenever he makes a small mistake or he sort of makes an oversight with something people come down on him pretty hard. Yeah it happens to me I've been I've been paying for for a thing that you come back stab the gesture rose ever since I said it. I'm the Dark Souls 2 series is like a million comments point out how wrong that is and it doesn't it's like I'd say it's one percent of the video's points. If that's that's actually overstating it but I'd be like yeah I've got to accept it that was a mistake and it's like by bad I didn't I didn't realize I wish I wish my Dark Souls expert friends would told me it's their fault really think about it. I am incredible I'm YouTube man. Also keep late master said issue is that Joseph values immersion above all example the alien being invincible in alien isolation quote didn't make sense the alien couldn't be hurt or seemed to be following me the whole game. I can see that I'm not working someone. Yeah. I mean the the enemies in amnesia you can stun them but you can't kill them you can find weapons in amnesia but you can't equip them the the only counter narratively there is for that is that Daniel's not a guy who can you know fucking use web as a recycle come on average human can pick up a hammer not like it's impossible. And then last thing really quickly left window added Mahler and guys we are guys do you have to be scared for yourself in a horror game for it to be good. Can you not just be scared for a character in the game you're playing. I think like 99% of the time when I'm scared in a game it is because it's me like for example Resident Evil 4 that game is terrifying because at any given moment in time when you're playing that you know you die you're gone but then contrast that with Resident Evil 5 and you have a partner to bill you out it immediately becomes less scary. It could be either it could be all how's this for a left field thing I don't think you have to be scared to consider the horror game good. You can recognize that it was well constructed and it just didn't work for you. Sure or that it had appropriate theming even though you weren't personally scared. Yeah all mechanics were really solid and the story was really well written but you can be like I just wasn't immersed didn't work for me and that's kind of what I feel like this video is these games I just don't get a boost and I'm like that's great. Let's just let's just let's polish this off we're so close we got like two minutes. I know we we just added like I know we can rewatch it if we want to. What is unique is that you're meant to feel frightened for yourself and for the character starring in the game you're playing a character that is an immortal force of nature that can never be killed only stricken within convenience ironically just like the monstrous supernatural villains that slash their way through their victims throughout the course of their movies. It's a strange conflict when you realize that it's like Superman being afraid of a spider or Jason being afraid of some boobs so next time you're playing a horror game ask your I'm sorry I just don't follow. I think I think what he's trying to say is because you can respawn you're not at risk so there's no reason to be afraid. We've already established there are so many games that move that mechanic or at least have a different mechanic. It wasn't just that like his use of words like whether you're unstoppable for snorlax is like look when I'm playing these games I don't feel like I'm fucking doom guy when I'm playing them. No I feel like the characters in those context I feel like the vulnerable Daniel in. I mean that's that's the immersive aspect of a video game is that you sort of feel like like you're not really perceiving it as you in the game you're you're sort of trying to fill the shoes of that character. It's a little bit different I think it's a slightly different thing. Superman could totally be afraid of spiders. Arachnophobia is about being irrational. Yeah what if it's a kryptonite spider. You're actually a kryptonite spider. Nice perfectly. But yeah just the also the idea that like the death part isn't necessarily what bothers me in amnesia like I'm not fearing of dying I'm just fear the thing itself that creature I don't know where it's from I don't know how it operates I don't want to be in the room with it I want to get away from it me dying all that is a delay before I end up in that room again. Mauler if you don't play this video I'm going to fucking come over right there and link your puck off and that's going to be proper incentive. Self are you really as scared as you could be or are you appreciating the fiendishly realized theme of the game instead of its actual scares. But how is the theme how can the theme not be scary the actual scares but not the themes. There it goes with those weirds again. Stop it. Stop it. No it's we we got to give him every piece of context okay Al. Next time you're playing a horror game ask yourself are you really as scared as you could be or are you appreciating the fiendishly realized theme of the game instead of its actual scares. And remember no matter how weak a horror protagonist may be compared to other genres there's no way to dismiss their immortality. Yes there is. There is. Stop it. Stop playing the game. I'm so sorry for you your blood pressure. I can't believe he keeps on it. He just won't stop. It's bizarre to me because he's already provided counters to that in his video he's been talking about other mechanics that are in games that counter that. They were in horror games were they they were rogue lights but they are rogue lights that are horror games called until dawn a horror game mate. So I don't know what his rules are. God go go go. I gotta listen to it again to make sure. That's that's all I want to do right now. How weak a horror protagonist may be compared to other genres there's no way to dismiss their immortality. You are a person safely separated from the horrific world remotely controlling an unstoppable. So how is that any different from watching a film or an action just go into a fucking jail and just start like making fun of everyone. Well yeah characters have a lot of action game. I'm not invested in any this action because I can't die. There's no risks. I'm just running around shooting until basically always saying here if if we extrapolate this point further is that media isn't capable being immersive or entertaining because you are not involved in what's happening. I enjoy this game for its scary themes though it's scary gameplay therefore it's not scary for fuck's sake. I enjoy this film for its action themes not as action therefore it's not an action game. Do you know what I mean with how like in an action game it's pretty crazy because you're like can I kill those guys before they kill me that would be the exchange and it's like down your accuracy and your positioning. And why the fuck does it matter when you can just respawn? Right. Yeah. Well, well, Wayson lacked said there's no way to ignore your immortality. That doesn't sound like an opinion. Yeah. No, it's an opinion guys. Read the title of the video. What's wrong with you? Checkmate. Wasting the potential video games have to fully realize what we've all wondered while watching horror movies. Fuck you. That's just you buddy. Sorry, but genuinely I think games realize horror better than most of the best movies. I mean, isn't this kind of insulting to video game developers who make horror games? You're pretty much dismissing all their work because you can respawn. Films are amazing but like games get to be films plus a bunch of other stuff if they want to. They get to add a whole bunch of other things. It depends on how they're made. There's some things though that you know that there are some games that could there's some films that we just wouldn't translate to games. I don't deny that but he's like talking about how it's just like we learn from films what games could be. I'm just like what? Fuck me. We gotta list that again though because don't straw man him. Don't straw man him. Fucking hell. There's no way to dismiss their immortality. You are a person safely separated from the horrific world remotely controlling an unstoppable god wasting the potential video games have to fully realize what we've all wondered while watching horror movies. Have we all that what we've all done? Why is he now showing Undertale? That's a good question actually. I don't get how that fits in that just stuck out to me. A lot of his like references are hit and miss. He's like I just gotta put in some b-roll fuck it. Is he saying Undertale realized some potential that games hadn't previously or is he saying it doesn't? It's self aware. Reee. Video games have to fully realize what we've all wondered while watching horror movies. What would I do if I was trapped in this situation? I mean it does realize that because you're still playing the game. It does realize what you would do because you're still- Yeah but it doesn't because he can't respawn while this person he's playing as is. But then what if he's playing Permanent? Does that solve that problem? I don't know. What if he restarts the game the second he dies? Does that solve the problem? I don't know. Does reincarnation exist? The true horror question. How do you know you don't just come back with a white memory? How do you know that? I do if I was trapped in this situation. I eagerly await the game that pulls this off for the humans instead of the monster. Most suitable music. But yeah I think that's it. Yeah there we go. It's just a Patreon. There we did it. We did it. We did it. We did it. We did it. Oh. We did it lads. Did you say there was something you wanted to say for the end, Chase? I really do think people were saying in the comments like, Chase you really should make sure these guys play Visage. Yeah if you guys haven't like seriously look it up OniPlays did a really great playthrough of that. Where because like Chris O'Neill you know Oni he is particularly very difficult to scare. It takes a lot for him to like a horror game. Like he can still get scared but he'll still have criticisms and he really really liked Visage. Like he played it with three friends and they were all like trying to fuck with each other and make little noises. It's like is that in the game or is that real life? But it's just like a really great time overall to watch him play that. And he's super super critical of all games forever. So for him to like Visage I think kind of lends a sense of credibility to it but just more than anything when you play Visage it's the whole thing is you know don't much like Amnesia you don't stay in the dark you'll go insane but unlike Amnesia when you stay in the dark in Visage like your insanity builds up and then once it gets to be too much you can actually get killed by a jump scare and the game will constantly do things to turn off the lights and certain sources of light will reduce your insanity. At one point you can get to be too insane and you only you can only restore it with medication. Like there's a lot of interesting balances and there's one part where a big specter monster thing you'll know it's near because it'll hear like kind of whispering and visual flickering and you need to like get away from that area and if you donate it'll kill you so it lends a real sense of hostility and threats versus because it's not just oh no I died I have to go back to the respawn. No it's you literally everything in that game makes your fucking like your spine tingle with fear there's an enemy around the corner and you just hear him going like and you're just like nope concern in this way and it doesn't really matter you know if you have to respawn because obviously you will if you that's subjective chase I'm nowhere near the fucking mental levels you guys I'm not even following along with your train of thought I'm just thinking I'd like to play a scary game right now you know I will I will look into it that sounds interesting yeah it's great it's really it's only early access it's fucking phenomenal so chase what's your conclusion in this video I like to that's enough Joseph Anderson can I want to take a big poopy on his son's chest apologize he might take that seriously and tweet about it no like once again I really don't I don't really have anything against the dude like I I think he sounds kind of like he's full of shit a lot of the time and he speaks with an air of authority that he doesn't really he doesn't really back it up I guess like especially this video was super weak mainly just in the sense that he started off subjective kind of went objective showed a really limited range of games and that didn't really fit with what he was talking about I mean I'm still trying to piece together how Undertale fit for that shot I did see someone argue that when you die in Undertale it sort of changes the storyline instead of death or life or something man not really though you just restart people have you ever played it oh my god Fringy what's your take on the whole thing yeah sure oh man you know I can't I I'm just this could have been a really interesting discussion but the it's too short and it's not well articulated so yeah just ends up being this confusing mess of bad arguments if he provided a lot more examples than a lot better I think I'm not sure that it would have been because I think his conclusions are just ridiculous and there might be the problem of cherry picking he'll pick all the games that match what he's saying as opposed to ones that don't we assume he's played them because he's making comments on the whole genre Burtman gaming said the real issue is that he has no clue what he wants from horror he doesn't want death but he also wants immersion and everything Immersions a fucking a magic dragon chasing like it's not something you just you you just get it's not like you make a game you go this will be immersive for everyone it's like no you can make decisions that'll work for people but won't work for other people and that's I always thought that was the thing that we agreed on as does everybody are you saying that it's that it's subjective no I just man the amount of people who played amnesia and said it was crap boring and is a pathetic attempt of being horror I was like I mean if they didn't get spooked if they didn't if they didn't connect with Daniel he didn't give a shit about the story if they found the atmosphere to be more encroaching and annoying rather than immersive what am I gonna do tell them that they felt things wrong and you know you get this where it's like ah but if they had done this then then I would have been immersed and maybe other people would have been and it's like shit just for you Alex what's your takeaway used until dawn and twilight and and and ironically can't get over that how dare you use a joke you didn't clarify soba is it a horror never answered the question tell me yeah honestly yeah yeah that's all I have to say really I'm good really quickly where was it Elise Su Silva I don't have a name said when you make a game for everyone you make a it's the same with marketing truly like when you advertise to everyone you advertise to no one you have to choose a specific subset of the demographic to market to or else it's not going to be effective that is palatable to everybody it won't be palatable to anybody in a very significant call way oftentimes they'll just be like well it's the idea of like the popcorn movie right it's the one everyone goes to seeing goes that was neat moving on as opposed to you bring up a movie that barely anyone sees but the people who did they go oh my god that was like that was like fucking Citizen Kane um because it's like tailor made for different people I suppose let me get let's subjective let me keep saying it that's the meme on this fucking stream metal what did you think of the video not a whole lot to add actually this poorly phrased at some points could be an interesting topic to discuss but I don't know it stands so definitive in the end and I don't think there's any follow up on that shit so well let me ask you this guys did you feel you were broadened on anything thanks to the video no he he kind of just made some opinions that I've thought about in the past but he kind of tried to present it as like this is a like again I know it's his opinion he kind of tried to present it as like this is a flaw of game design in horror subsequently I don't like horror games anymore because they all do this and it's a flaw that may not have explicitly been what he was trying to say but it's certainly kind of how it came off yeah um I mean hopefully this just spawns conversation not just with what we've talked about not with the chat but comments as well because it's an ongoing discussion it's very interesting what makes horror games scary exactly it's just whenever someone comes out and says this is what it does it's like uh oh like that guy's gonna have to have some really strong references you know yeah um I'm now going to to tackle the super chats all in a row so um Michael I said I got the dose also I got another anime recommendation mob psycho 100 by the same author that made one punch man I couldn't get into it but I hear really good things granted I only watched the first episode so I'm talking but it just didn't hook me anyone else here I want to hear everyone say it's great yeah I've heard of it um it's it's on the list funnily enough in the manga um Saitama wears a mob psycho jumper and I was like I recognize the day but I googled a little bit oh oh yeah there's the anime I need to watch you know if you if you want a really good kind of tying it into tying it into the topic of the video if you want to see a really really good anime that has a lot of sort of overarching it's not really horror but it's definitely it's more psychological horror for sure check out in monster it's like from fucking oh the early 2000s that's a really good anime I know that Alex was just waited to be like they won't want to know we'll leave you right we'll leave you right yeah yeah it's about a surgeon who regrets not operating on a guy and then he confronts the grieving family afterwards and they're really upset with him and like they ruin he ruined their lives and then he's like fuck next time I because originally he was going to operate on this guy and his his boss was like no operate on this other guy because he's donating millions to our hospital and he's like all right and then the guy ends up dying he feels terrible and then later he gets an opportunity to to save a little boy and his and his bosses like no we'll go save this guy that's donating a bunch of he's like fuck you and he goes and saves the kid and then it turns out that the kid grows up and he's a mass murderer and now he has to yeah now now he needs to stop is that's not actually too inaccurate because he's a member of like a I know I know I know I'm all so the next donation horror games are for queers thoughts I am yeah it's confused you might as well just suck a dick frankly I'm just saying that's a good question which assayist is the closest to gadelb I don't think any assayist should ever be anywhere near what happens in those videos because if anything the voice is based on Mark brown the content was more based on H Bob a guy a lot of quotes are used for those different people so it's really up to you guys what do you subjectively feel about that come wait till this later thanks skull and wheels great to see chase on this one his stuff's always good chase uh he did this video he did this video though okay the way that he did it top Jared reference there I'm afraid if no one gets it it's it's it's top this better be longer than three hours or I'm pulling your wheels off skull and wheels general saint chief of the goddamn podcast army I don't think we're gonna make it to three hours we'll get close though very close I swear we started 20 past four past eight we got it with two hours very nearly three hours with two hours and 40 minutes when I just say I always hear everyone praising super patch wolf and like his video essays are pretty good but I just can't get over the way sounds like he's oh don't oh I know I know I I really do do enjoy this especially obviously the animation but yeah it skews me out it's like back up dude I can hear you fine project a little bit because it was one time where I did a horror anime review and I talk like this do you ever atmosphere but it just I've never seen salad fingers he reminds me of that it's like whenever people do that it reminds me of people who just like please come the day tell me my voices just chill the day that's that's more horrifying than fucking until dawn absolutely fucking salad fingers is terrifying yeah most of the sound effects and shit it's like you don't know when something's gonna jump at you and fucking jump scare you in that show Anita suck easy and just announced spooky game too I've finally yeah no reread the name read read how he spells are key oh oh Anita suck me is that I don't I don't get it I don't know I think it was just me me me but me me suck easy I mean like a pasta Joseph Anderson is a pretentious idiot who desperately wants to be Matthew Matosis I still think that he's actually decent I just got angry at him with the soma thing because I have to remember that there are so many content creators that are so much worse this is one of his worst videos don't get me wrong like it's just it adds nothing to the conversation this video if anything it just it'll confuse lots of people because you'll have people parroting this now like the horror games aren't scary because you respawn and be like oh god we have to unpack that for you so that you realize that you know the weird thing is like I completely understand where he's coming from but what is the solution well you know like you're like a bunch chase when you're paying attention yeah like I genuinely think his soma video it does more bad than good but I thought his witness video was good I liked his trying to remember what are the ones I've seen oh controversially any of you guys played inside it was the sequel to limbo well not sequel spiritual successor to limbo I guess I've seen all of it I was not impressed I played it and I found it kind of lame and I watched his video on it and he pretty much articulated everything I had a problem with and I was like I don't know if it's because I was biased against the game or if because it was a well made video but I enjoyed that one too and I think you'd be great to actually have a conversation with but I know there's no chance to say what's going to happen especially with this street here's here's the thing so not talking about anyone in particular but I know that all all of those fucking youtubers that they get critical acclaim and then they they get into their clicks they're all a bunch of fucking cunts like I can't I can't say anything about anyone in particular like I said but I have met basically everyone from every fucking circle on YouTube and they all put on this air of like I'm really reasonable and approachable and nice and you meet them and they're just like huge cunts have you met that asshole more ago doesn't let people have feelings uh I hear he's a racist so true he doesn't like women you didn't like like Black Panther he doesn't smell like Black Panther it's infuriating the conflate genre and themes that's another thing we didn't even really get to get into like what is it that defines a genre versus having the themes of of something that might be present in a genre and this this is what I what I just said is so fucking complicated to go through you'd need like a whole 10 hours to be like okay so this is like every single thing that is ever relevant to this conversation Mahler are you gonna make a video like replying to Joseph Andersen's video because I would actually unironically I would really love to see you break it down and give examples of what you think I figure that this stream will will be that I'm busy with people are desperately waiting my next TFA stuff I'm still working on it but I really want you to do more like horror game stuff because that shit is so enjoyable I know I have a lot of fans are upset that I'm not doing horror anymore but the thing is the channel was never horror game channel it's just what I tackled first that's that's the yeah that's what you did it really well when I did I just put my highlights back but when I did ukulele after Resil, seven people like what the fuck I was like yeah I wanted to cover it that's all there's like Star Wars like what what is what is this channel it was like oh it's it's just not specific it's like I just fucking do what I want pretty much yeah and I think it's it's better for me for making things if I don't force myself to stick to one let's say just format or focus or genre even so yeah you know there's going to be a horror game I'll cover in the future guaranteed I just don't know when exactly Joe someone did ask earlier what you think of Fooley Cooley you know that anime nope FLCL it's a six episode OVA and I think you'd really like it in terms of just like the pacing it's basically like a weird surreal music video if you want to like a sort of test or more I probably would think of this thing then if Alex has seen it can give you sort of a because me and him tend to follow the same sort of result on a lot of media your buddies family yeah I watch it not on this one can't say I know anything at all okay you guys should check it out it's really good and they made seasons two and three recently by a completely different team with a much more limited budget and it sucks my asshole oh that's like that's my share of like so many animes someone said that Joseph Tooce cool for school Anderson so I'm going to have to go ahead and stay now really don't want any hate towards Joseph Anderson I just felt like this was a great opportunity to talk about all the subjects and as much as we've been like maybe someone here said that he's a dick or he's retarded or he's an idiot or he's pretentious like any any insult of course he was just said casually and we don't actually want anyone to go hunt him down and tell him he's a piece of shit yeah he's he's he's not a bad person or anything like that no we don't even I don't know him I don't know like like what did he ever just remember like we're just disagreeing with a lot of things he say we're not like you know yeah we're not hating on I'll hate the haters genuinely had a long passionate comment in one of the earlier eFap saying can you please have a disclaimer discouraging witch hunting wouldn't be necessary you don't really need to tell your audience what to do people gonna do it regardless well this this saying that um if if discouraging it meant that instead of 10 people which hunting there was nine wouldn't it be worth it not really I mean that's what I'm kind of saying on principle is like you guys know that you should really do that right you don't need me to tell you that it's like did your mom not raise you properly that I think that's okay people feel like it's a sort of responsibility thing but I mean I'm never gonna be encouraging people to do it so should be yeah but I mean yeah don't please and again I shouldn't need to say it but like man like the people because you know like the whole like people scared what's your name the actors for rose off Instagram and I'm just like I mean surely that's only like that validates the uh the evil if you will because everyone receives evil but then it's only once you take an action of like running away that it it becomes like a real thing that people like report about it you know I'm getting like a lot of actresses probably experience the same thing maybe she experienced more hate than others because she was Rose Tico but again why why go after the actress she had to read the script there's a lot of people out there that hate their fucking lives and vent to just like shit on people that are doing way better than and that's what I've gathered anyway it's not like a blanket accusation but that's just a general truth I've noticed there's a lot of people out there that they do that to like blow off steam that's most of the YouTube comment section it's like as a fucking idiot I don't know what he's talking about oh yeah there are a couple of comments that I'll receive and I'll be like I wonder if they just wanted to say it instead of they actually wanted me to read it I wonder if they'd be like I prefer he doesn't read it I just want to say it I go boring the chat said don't eat babies guys why not tasty good that's a guy used to allow he don't want to do that no one else wants it you know yeah yeah you have that my my little pony friendship is magic is the best horror theme game ever made fucking ponies god damn like I think that's that's a fair perspective that shit no comment yeah Patrick Wilms made a video on Michael Bay and everyone's wondering if I'll cover it just because Patrick Wilms but um I from what I saw I was just like meh this seems fine to me like I I don't really it's not when he has a concept of why you should not care about plot holes in writing that's like that's explosive in terms of its subject but if he if he says stuff like you know there are certain techniques that Michael Bay uses that are actually good versus bad I should be like am I am I and that um it's like a 30-40 minute video something so we we'd be here for I say that as if anybody's gonna say that's a problem you're like yeah fuck it how are you fab go for it no good horror regardless of media triggers your flight or fight instincts on a subconscious level as consciously you know you're not in any real danger but again that would be like some guy out there says that that did not happen for him and then some others says that it did it for him so what do we say about that game ultimately I suppose it would be good subjectively as uh just do you want to do it again chase this the the fucking subjectively uh with echoes yeah as are you yeah start over so I can like time it no Patrick made a video recently praising Michael Bay see a lot of people maybe we we want to come it um alien isolation does have a suicide alien isolation does have a suicide button it's the shift key are they implying because when you run the alien can find you easier yeah it essentially just goes I'm fucking here please get me uh can't stay for the climax of EFAP but so happy to finally catch one live love listening while I work and suck as many danguses so we did read that one before and uh I appreciate it thank you very much Sally King oh the danguses here I never gone notified that you're all streaming I am so sorry I don't even know if the bell even works so I can't even recommend rigging it I don't know um I think it does you don't really die in under tail you just go back in time this way couldn't you argue that in all games yeah I guess so and you're a superhuman you know or you could just you could be like there's a guard out there who doesn't like it when I die and he's goes go all the unbearable force all it's you so true when you're gonna watch slash talk about Gio Gio is that an anime I don't know it could it probably don't wish hung people unless it's H bomb a guy he said slash slash fine that's true well when you're fucking smug and self-righteous and condescending as him he kind of demands a chase did you see the tweet from him where he said I actually love it when people call me smug because that means they felt I was saying things with absolute confidence when I have trouble doing that he was smug meaner he was smug about being smug yeah it's just it's like when you get someone who's that confident that that you know it's like it's like when people say you mad bro it's like no you're just a fucking cunt I was gonna say you can be confident without being smug you know you just make statements so you don't it's just annoying that's all it doesn't make him wrong it just makes him abrasive when he was when he was doing the shit where he's like oh mathematosis is the game too hard for you oh it's like fuck are you doing it's like you said in your video people fucking love mathematosis he's so likable he never takes shots at anyone exactly smaller he's always he's always so sweet and he just kind of does his own thing he's not really even active on twitter he doesn't really have much of a presence elsewhere he'll he'll stream video games that he likes and you hear him in his streams and he's just he's just having a good old chill dude how could you how could you find anything to even if you disagree with him how could you bring yourself to be condescending to him so you must be a fucking giant turd of a person that's why I was like this is absolutely throw up that shield chase you feel like you can't say anything he's got like the ultimate critic plot armor it's too good that's what it is but that's seriously because I think it's relevant to say in my opinion in a script I just don't feel like people use it that way much anymore it's more so to be like fuck I just shot this script out in a day I'll just put in my opinion at the end and then it might be good in my opinion yeah I'm not using any references here guys it's just my opinion please remember guys if you disagree with me it's my opinion so um yeah that's my favorite counter argument is when people say if you don't like it don't watch it's like no I wish I'm actually gonna do that well I mean if you if you continuously kept watching a tv show just to hey on it I would ask you like you probably aren't stopping anytime soon or like one criticism people go like I've pointed out that the super smash bros direct from yesterday morning was like really underwhelming and I had so many people in my mentions on twitter saying you know the worst kind of smash fan it's like this is the only time I've been critical of that coming out if you watch so if the first time expected to be good that you said it was bad they were like why are you watching it that I'd be like because I thought it'd be good I had expectations why didn't you decide whether you liked it or not before you consumed it you fucking idiot uh I was gonna say because we wrap it up uh uh Fringy would you like to tell people why they should subscribe to your channel while I post it in the chat or or I haven't I haven't posted like four months just just just make it up just say how you promote your stuff by the way just do it anyway listen and believe me when I tell you that this that it's the best channel in the world subscribe so chase why should people subscribe to your shitty channel um generally because I just kind of do like you know how dunkey just makes videos and he just like has opinions he's like I like this it's kind of like that but I don't you know I don't try to do anything like that where it's like oh look at how funny I am it's just like if I like it sometimes they'll do something really sentimental sometimes they do something really like analytical sometimes we'll just review shit that I like usually anime and games I don't know I don't fucking care if you don't subscribe but feel free well let me just say for the people listen and believe yes to this uh go and find chase's video on clenoa try and the challenges try and watch it without feeling sad it's a little it's a little campy I'll let you know ahead of time if you watch my clenoa video I definitely play up how emotional it is because I was like extremely depressed when I mean I was like I was pretty taken with it I think that it was appropriate like that it's bad my my my girlfriend at the time left me and then fucks five other people within the course of two months so I just needed to that's actually that's actually the reason but I couldn't say no that's actually what happens you pull that into the children's game yeah that's why I made a sad video I was like that fucking bitch yeah and then I suppose uh Alex and Mel if I don't uh what do I do also twitch streams are not allowed here I get it wait you stream oh man everyone in chat is just like wow dude uh yeah I was gonna say at least with Mel I can actually post his twitch channel if you guys want to check it out but yeah I just stick around in games basically I don't do anything yeah for me it's just expect to see me in another Mola stream sometime soon maybe and yeah uh like I said you know a lot of people will probably there's probably gonna be a top comment saying like you guys just don't let people have opinions the idea was to have opinions about the opinions and to tackle sort of the the whole point of eFap is to look at the scripts of video essays pretty much because um we're tired of the idea that you you say a bunch of things then you go in my opinion and then there's no discussion it's just boring and I get it if they just came out and they said I really like this youtuber and I'm annoyed that you tried to put holes in either arguments just fucking say it that well I'll actually respect you if you come out and say I'm a massive fanboy fucking loser and I don't actually have an argument why would you ever say more at least you're honest you know um I'm no actually objectively it's very true and you were just a neck beer yes open invitation for joseph anson to come and talk about the subject if he would like to no pressure and uh hopefully you guys enjoyed this wherever and whenever you may be listening to it it'll go up on the um the second channel which is called mula uh you can find all of the past eFaps are uh are on there and if joseph anerson does see this if joseph anerson does see this I promise mauler really doesn't bite he's not as as edgy in in person or you know on calls anyway as he is in his video man I would love to listen to joseph anson talk about video games I would I would yeah you're super nice like the fact that you fucking like tore apart my video a little bit I was you think I wasn't but hurt I was super but hurt I was like this fucking asshole and then I messaged you and you were so nice I couldn't be mad yeah it's the same thing with uh wolf on there oh yeah uh I said the wolf made a really bad video on Thor Ragnarok and he was told about it and he left a comment on my video being like what the fuck you say and then I was like want to have a conversation he was like okay and then we literally just talked about what we like about movies and stuff and then we were like want to be friends okay it's mostly your voice like you just fucking make me rock hard and I'm just like I gotta keep talking this guy that's beautiful um I just I heard your voice and I just went we got we got two minutes we got two minutes until three hours we got to fill it uh someone talk about something today uh it's racist oh i'm sorry the friggin what are you doing the rest of your day supposed to be doing a podcast like now but it's not like i'm still waiting on somebody so you're doing a podcast right now you idiot from your life another one i have to wake up early to do podcast with you freaking oh you know who you sound like oh what's the name of that australian guy that uh did a bunch of fucking damn it what's his name i'll get back to you keep talking oh well i lost my try to figure out who he is is it alpharad i'm trying to think i don't know i don't know who he's talking about you gotta help me out here uh is it taiko waititi he's australian he's new zealand fuck isn't he yeah it's the same thing it's the same thing for you all right and canadiens and americans are the same no you have to say english and welsh the same to get to me yeah oh english and welsh are the same you are but you are but you fucking what you're a muselk muselk that's who you remind me of muselk if i walk in ten minutes muselk mute yeah he just like listen to one of muselk's videos and tell me he doesn't sound fucking exactly like is he a youtuber yeah he's a youtuber he does a lot of like uh let's plays and stuff oh well it's like one to one sorry go on we are we are pretty much at three hours i'm gonna say thank you all for for guesting thank you joseph aniston for providing the opportunity to talk about this subject in such detail of pedantry that we often do thank you chat for the donations add for the interaction it's been fun and uh hope you had hope you enjoyed it i'll see you all next time goodbye