 Good evening everybody, I'm Sultry Asian. Yeah, this is great for my ego, thanks very much. I'm here to introduce our next speaker, and I have to say that we have a fantastic team here at SE Village, but we wouldn't be a fantastic team without a fantastic leader. This is Chris Hadnaggy, the CEO of Social Engineer LLC and socialengineer.org. He's the author of three books, Social Engineering, The Art of Human Hacking, Unmasking the Social Engineer, and Fishing Dark Waters. So he has had a lot of time in the business and a lot of experience in the business, and he is here to talk to you tonight about special Jedi mind tricks. He is awesome when it comes to convincing people to do things that they shouldn't do. So without further ado, everybody, Chris Hadnaggy. The best introduction of my life. Oh, I only have five minutes left as of now. Okay. Oh, actually, I should probably start my own timer. There we go. Okay. So, seven Jedi mind tricks to help you influence your target without a word. So first of all, I want to ask, how many first-time Def Connors? Holy mackerel, really? Wow. Wow. Wow, I love you all. That's amazing. That's really crazy. I never get that many hands. Okay, so I want to start off just talking a little bit about what social engineering is before we get into actually using any kind of mind tricks, right? So I define social engineering as any act that influences a person to take an action that may or may not be in their best interests. And I use a pretty broad definition, which is way different than what you'll find online, because what you'll find online a lot of times involves the word manipulation, and that definitely is part of it. But I think that it's not always negative, right? Now, I know you're going to think I'm trying to SCU, but I really have a valid question. How many guys in the room have daughters? Okay, I do too. As a matter of fact, she's right here, okay? Now, and I swore I would never, one, bring her to Vegas, and two, bring her here to Def Conn. But yet, she's here. How does that happen? Well, there's all these different things we can talk about in psychology, but in essence, she made a really valid argument that it was her right to come here and be with me in Def Conn, supporting me and learning about the industry, because this is what I want her to do with her life, and how can she learn to do it if she's not here? Pretty valid argument, right? So solid reasoning mixed with all the emotions and feelings of her being my daughter, and bam, she's here. There may or may not also be pictures on the internet of me wearing a pink scarf having my fingernails painted while drinking tea. And I think any guy in the audience that has a daughter can probably relate to said things, things that we would never think we would do. Now, if you study those very positive examples of social engineering and you learn how that works psychologically, the bad guys are doing the same things, right? So I think from a security perspective, and let's assume everyone in the room is here to learn how to do this for the good, then we have to analyze how to use the principles of influence to become better communicators and social engineers so that way we can become better security professionals. So I find this to be a very valid topic. So what is influence, and why is it so powerful? Well, I like this definition of influence of trying to get someone to do something and make it their idea. I thought I heard horns being, I was going to go nuts. So trying to get someone to do something and make it their idea influence, right? Different than manipulation, where you get someone to do something and it's your idea. I've heard other definitions like influence benefits both you and the target, whereas manipulation only benefits you. So we want to talk about influence because we want to talk about how to get people to want to do the things that you want to do. And we can do a lot of talking about verbals and things like that, but we're going to focus on things that you can practice every day nonverbally that will help you become a better influencer. Here's the first one. It's called the Duchenne Smile. Now, if you've never heard of this guy, he was a French researcher named Duchenne. The time people thought that you can't force, you can't fake a real smile. So Duchenne didn't think that way. He thought, well, you can, you can actually fake a real smile. And he had an interesting way of proving it. He drove around the French countryside and he got a prisoner out of prison and drilled a couple holes on the side of his face and suck a couple of electrodes in those holes and shocked the crap out of him. And guess what? The guy did. He really smiled. Now, that doesn't really make sense that he would really smile, but he did. He really smiled. Why? Well, because he triggered the ocularis orbitalis. Did I say that right, Michelle, for once? I did. Yes, I win. The ocularis orbitalis nerve, which is the difference between a fake and a real smile. Fake smiles only engage the mouth. Real smiles engage the whole face. And Duchenne proved that we can actually fake that, right? So we now call that the Duchenne Smile. What is the real smile? Now, what's great is that the picture of him that you most commonly see, there is no real smile on his face. But he made this guy really smile. I just wanted to show you that once again. There you go. One more time. Okay. Now, compare and contrast. Here's some really amazing pictures that Michelle helped me find on the Internet of the same people. Which side is the real smile? Right. Excellent, right? We could see that very clearly. And what's amazing, and we can't do this from this angle or I can't do it here on the screen, but if you were to cover her mouth, you could still tell she's smiling, right? Based on her eyes. If you were to cover her eyes, you could definitely tell she's smiling. Whereas on the picture on the left, she definitely looks happy when you see the whole face, but not if you just cover, let's say if you covered her mouth, you would not see smiling in her eyes and vice versa. So a real smile engages the whole face and you don't need the whole face to see that someone is happy. So you can practice this. Well, how do you practice this? There's a couple different ways you can do that. First, what really helps is looking at pictures of people really smiling. Why does that work? Well, our brains like to mimic the things that we see. We oftentimes mimic the facial expressions that we see. If you ever had this experience, you're walking down the street, maybe you're walking past a restaurant, and there's a glass between you, a window, and you see a group of people in the restaurant laughing and having a good time. What do you do? You're doing what the majority of you are doing right now, smiling, thinking about it. So you had that experience and it triggers an actual smile. So when we see people who are laughing and smiling, we tend to recreate those same facial expressions and the same emotions that go with it. So one of the first things you can do is look at people that are really smiling. Take a look at those pictures. And then you can practice doing that. And it's not too hard, right? You can practice getting your whole face involved in a smile and eventually it may not be natural for you if that's not something you do, but eventually after time practicing it, it becomes more of a habit and you learn to do it. Now you have to be cautious at first when you're practicing. You're practicing at home in a mirror with your family because if you're fake, you start doing this and it looks like you're constipated and not smiling. So you want to be cautious of your practice out in the wild. So this, real or fake? Real. Real or fake? Very good class. How about this? Good. You guys pass. You all get certified in real smiles. Now this is an easy one, but often what's interesting, often times, is that we don't do it, do we? We walk through our life. We walk through the hallways. You'll see this here at DEF CON. We are attached to our devices and we don't smile. And why is that? I don't really know the answer. I'd like to know the answer, but people tend to think that maybe I know in some cultures we were just, my family and I were just in Russia and I learned something interesting about the culture there that smiling is considered a weakness in some areas of Russia. And if you smile, they think you're up to something and you're shady, right? So it's almost a cult, in some cultures, it's a cultural thing where smiling can make it seem weird. So you want to be cautious with that because you don't want to be creepy, right? You don't want to be walking by people, like you're just like hit some crack or something. So you want to be cautious with how much, you know, you want to be weird looking, but you want to practice genuine smiles because as you guys just experienced looking at them even on a screen will trigger happy emotions in you and it will make people more compliant with your demands. So if we can trigger happy emotions then we can trigger more compliancy. Here's number two, the eyebrow flash. I think I have a video to show you how this works. Oh, yeah. Now, what does that mean? Okay? That was a little creepy. See, that was a creep, it sounded like, let me tell you why I said, oh yeah, that sounded really weird. Maybe I should back up and redo that slide. Okay, so these are what are called conversational signals. So without words, if you were talking to someone and they were to do that, they were to raise their eyebrows, what did they just say to you? Okay, so those are the emotions, you're getting some emotions, but imagine this, surprise would also involve the mouth, like, right, that would be more like surprise, so very good, but if someone is just talking, if you're just conversing and you're saying something like, okay, let's go over to this talk and this guy was talking about emotions and it was okay, you know, it was not bad. And they went like this, what did they say? What are they saying? I'm sorry, I heard so many answers. Okay, keep talking. Skepticism? Interest, okay, all three of those are true, right? So depending on the other parts of the face, it could be, yeah, tell me more, I'm interested. It can also be skepticism if it's maybe more of a downward motion with the eyebrows or it could be I'm interested in what you're saying. So this is a conversational signal telling somebody that you want to hear more. Now, think about this, what does that tell the other person, the talker? The one who is sending out the message, if you are telling them you are interested, what does that say? You're engaged, excellent. What else, I heard some? Keep talking. So I'm interested in you, I'm listening, active listening and I want you to tell me more. How validating is that? And the more you talk, the less your targets are going to be compliant, the more they talk, the more compliant your targets will become. So you can influence them by keeping them talking. And this is just a great principle of conversation, whether you're doing it in social engineering or you're doing it at home or just natural conversation. So a really good one. And Michelle did find me a male one just in case. You know? Man, that's not creepy at all. No. I thought it worked better before. Okay, now let's talk about the next one. Number three. I'm always going to say this wrong, but you know, let's reword that proximics, right? Anyone say that better than me? Okay, no, that's good, I feel better. So this is like our space allowance. How close and personal we want it to be. Like right now, some of you are probably uncomfortable because of how close you are to each other. But what determines how close people can get to you? Okay, I heard some. Culture, society. What else? Personal preference, what? Say it here, sir. You in the white shirt. Gender, okay. Smell. That's DEF CON right there, my friends. Interest, you said? Context. Ooh, I like that. Right? So also, let me add some things to that. The level of rapport that you feel with the person you are interacting with, the relationship you have with them will determine the closeness including with culture and other things, right? So like in Norway, what is personal space tends to be a three-foot radius. That's personal space. But in Japan, there is no such thing as personal space. If you can see light, you're too far away, right? And why is that? Well, the cultures are different. But rapport will also determine that. For example, imagine this. You're standing here, and a total stranger walks up to you and puts his hand on your stomach and starts to rub it. Yeah, most of you are not going to feel that way, right? Most of you are going to feel the way you're all looking right now, which is really uncomfortable. Well, you don't have a relationship with that person, right? There's no rapport there in trust, so that's a really intimate area for someone to be able to come up and be that close to you. But Proximix is learning how to use personal space, right? So here are some examples. Like a team, it's okay to hug. Now, where's Dave left? He had to go to the meeting, but I wanted him to hear this part because sometimes people don't want to be hugged long and awkwardly, right? Or awkward hugs where there's heavy breathing on the neck and things like that. That's weird, right? Now, what allows for that? Well, that's relationship, right? You can see the mom and daughter there, that makes sense. Whereas if that same situation was in the bottom picture in the business setting, it would look more like this. Creepy. Creepy. Yeah. Yeah, if you ever see a... You're doing something wrong. Okay, you're doing something wrong here. So why is this important? Well, I'll give you a personal example. So I'm raised in New York City, I'm raised in New York area, and I'm an Italian. Thank you. New York, yeah, that's right. So I'm raised in Italian New York. What does that mean about the level of touching in my family? No, you don't know nothing about Italians. Lots of touching and slapping and pinching and hitting and hugging and walking up to me, slap me in the face, curse at me and give me five bucks if I didn't tell my parents. This is the way it went. This is the way you show the fix and you're so often cute and slap you there. It's like, ah, thank you, Grandma. I love you, too. There's a lot of personal touching, right? So because of that, I don't have a problem. I really don't have a problem with close proximity. I don't have a problem with hugs. I don't have a problem with touching. I don't have a problem with that. You really have to learn if I'm going to be a good social engineer to be able to read those signs when people aren't comfortable, because it can really break your chance to be influential. It can break rapport if you are not aware of what your proximity is allowed when you're interacting with your targets. So you really have to learn these things and that takes them time. So what does it mean? Well, it's always best to err on the side when it comes to these things and not take liberties just because it's comfortable to you. So when it comes to this particular one, it's nice to show that you are aware of personal space and you're not too creepy, especially when it's cross-gender. And I say this more so for girls than girls to guys, because guys, right? I mean, if a girl gets really close to us, we're like, yes, win! You know, I love it, I don't care. I mean, they can come up and just be right next to you but if we do it, we're creepers. So you've got to be aware of that, okay? You've got to be aware of that. And especially when it comes to cultural, okay? Size is a thing too, right? I'm really tall, so you've got to be cautious because what happens to your targets if when you get close to them and they have to interact with you, they're doing this. This isn't comfortable, is it? Yeah, it's intimidating, exactly. And it's uncomfortable to have to look up like this, so you're going to ruin the ability to build rapport with your targets if they have to be uncomfortable and conversing with you. So if you're dealing with a shorter person, it's always best to stand back a little bit, right? To stand back so they can look at you even but not so far back that it looks odd because you don't want to be near them. There's some good tips there on that. Number four, power language. These are things that are verbal but they're not, right? So something like a... what do you think of when you hear a sigh? Exasperation. Exasperation, what else? Glory. Exhaustion, good. Boredom. Okay, so all of these are true and if you were standing there and you heard someone now in this room, it may not be the same because we're here for a purpose but if you're in public and you hear someone sigh, whether you decide to ask what's wrong or not, we start to think, I wonder what's wrong with that person and if you're with a person who has empathy and compassion, if you're in a public area and you sigh, what will occur most times is they'll ask you, what's wrong? Is everything okay? What's wrong? So a sigh is a great way to elicit a response from a person that you're looking to interact with, right? Now, you have to have a response that makes sense, right? This is a part you've got to follow up with because if you sigh and you ask people if someone asks you what's wrong, you've got to have a good storyline. You can't be like, well, you know, when I was five, my mom beat me, then my dog died because people don't want to be that involved right now, right? So you want to have an answer that allows for a conversation and not like they're calling the hotline for your help, you know what I mean? So power language can, it will trigger an inquiry, even if it's not right away and people will start to think, I wonder what's wrong there, you know, if I should ask for help and if you're doing all those other parts right, then it can help and also building that rapport and having people want to communicate with you. Oh, here's a good one. This is super important, right? And now, you know, you've got to really balance this and this is a hard one for some people. It really is, especially us computer guys, right? We spend so much time with technology, like looking at another human is almost scary, right? So we really got to practice this one and we got to practice it right. I've been with people like when they're practicing eye contact, they stare at you and it's like you almost feel like they want to hurt you, you know, they want to do that, you see? So you got to be really careful with how intense your eye contact is and so you want to really practice that with people that know you and love you, especially if it's a weakness of yours, a great place to practice this is with your family, with eye contact and learning to look at people without being intently gazed upon them without looking psychotic or creepy. It's a very powerful thing. It's a very powerful form of influence. If you make eye contact with people when you're communicating, it says I actually care about you, I'm looking at you I want to communicate with you as a person and it's very different than if I just kind of, if you notice I just look over everyone's heads in the audience and I'm not really paying attention it's very different feel and how personal this can be than making eye contact with people when you're speaking to them it really helps to build rapport. Am I going too fast? I'm going too fast, I need to slow down my mom told me to slow down. Sorry. No, my harnesses only have 10 minutes left. Am I going too fast? Sorry guys. Well, I'll slow down a little anyway because I'm probably, and I naturally talk fast, that's what happens so let me take a drink this will be a fake pause. Okay, so back to eye contact and what's important about eye contact is also knowing when it can come uncomfortable for the person you're interacting with right so if the person you're interacting with is nervous and not making eye contact you don't want to force it you want to be like right so you want to be really careful that you're also respecting you're respecting them now from the older generation if you're dealing with older generations you always looked at people when you spoke to them right you always looked at them and my grandma would say you always look at people when they talk to you you never look away so you have to also know culturally gender, age what's acceptable and what's not probably one of the biggest ones non-sexual touch and it's important to understand what this means because human interaction and touching is very powerful way to build rapport but only when it's done appropriately and non-sexually so before we talked about proximity and how that works right and where the areas of the body that are acceptable to touch and not I mean some of them are very obvious we don't have to go into them but some of them may not be so obvious like the stomach or the lower back thighs anything like in this area these are unacceptable to touch on strangers right you don't just walk up to people and do that that's really weird right I wish Dave was here for this because even with certain really close relationships it's inappropriate to touch areas in certain places because it doesn't build rapport it doesn't make you feel comfortable it makes you feel uncomfortable and ashamed of yourself anyhow so you gotta be really careful how you do that now why is this such a powerful thing if you can master this and before we even talk about that let's talk about how you master it so this takes a lot of practice right knowing when it's appropriate and you'll notice too because sometimes when you're interacting with people they will tell you when it's okay because they will start doing it you ever have people you walk up to and they right away put their hand on your shoulder they're saying it's okay then for you to reciprocate that or you ever talk with someone and they do the arm touch they do the arm touch they touch you in the arm when they're talking to you that's acceptable form of non-sexual touch because these are all okay places when it's done appropriately it releases a chemical called oxytocin in the brain and oxytocin is something that many people have researched but one of the more current researchers is Dr. Paul Zak he wrote a book called The Moral Molecule and it talks about oxytocin being the chemical that they've linked to the feeling of trust and when we feel trust when we feel rapport oxytocin is released so this is a powerful thing because think about that if you can release oxytocin in your targets they feel trust and they feel it towards you and that's a really powerful thing to be able to do to people you're trying to influence if they trust you and then you ask for something they're more likely to comply with the ask aren't they because you've built trust with them and you've done it chemically some things to know about oxytocin because I see some of you writing it down or thinking about it if you search for oxytocin you will find that they sell oxytocin on Amazon it's not really oxytocin it's more like an alcohol tincture it's mostly alcohol and then a little bit of something they're calling oxytocin and the doc Paul Zak he says if you were actually trying to use that to build trust in people I'll just buy this and put it in a girl's drink and she'll trust me but first of all you need to either inject it or they need to inhale it so unless you plan on bringing a pump and one and a half gallons to a bar it's not going to work to build trust no you can't do it it's not going to work you can't you're not going to pump a gallon to have a liquid into a girl's nose or the bar that's not going to really build trust hey can you just sit here for a second yeah just a minute more and you'll be trusting me so don't think that will work so online purchased oxytocin is not the way to go I say do it naturally through influence and good emotions something else to know about oxytocin has a very short shelf life but it also stays with you the reason for it Dr. Zak did a really cool study on oxytocin where they found out that once there was a relationship that the same release of oxytocin occurred even when they were interacting with the person through social media so you have a good relationship with your boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife, kids and when you're reacting with them on Facebook, Messenger, Twitter, whatever the same amount of oxytocin is getting released in your bloodstream then when you're sitting with them in person so really powerful so imagine this from a social engineering perspective if you could be the source of oxytocin or one of them for your targets then they'll interact, they'll feel that way with you regardless if they're interacting with you in person or through email or phone and that's a really really powerful thing but one of the great ways to release it is non-sexual touch I need someone to come up here I need a demonstrator anyone, okay, you come up here I want to just show you one thing that some people do no, yeah, so first so, no, just kidding I thought that was what you were doing horrible example but sometimes we do this when we greet people and if you see people do this this is a really great way to ruin rapport thank you give them a round of applause okay that is not a positive form of non-sexual touch okay, because what you're saying is I'm in control and when you're in control it doesn't build rapport so you want to build rapport with people let them be in control right, so doing that I have to work on this myself because that tends to be my natural habit is to kind of put a hand over the hand when I'm shaking and you have to be aware of that how that makes some people feel very captive and it looks very captive like you're just trying to be the top guy or gal so be really cautious with that especially cross-gender we see this to be very common can I ask you? okay, come here another one that happens between male and females when they shake hands you see this, I really do like, hey, I'm not letting go until you can't go anywhere until I say it's uncomfortable see, hug her it's uncomfortable, you see that's what she said and this was even a demonstration and it's uncomfortable so if you have the habit of doing that it's not a great form of non-sexual touch and you can see there was no intimate areas interacted with on either of our guests that never occurred but it still makes people feel uncomfortable if you try to take control so be cautious with that if you do it on the non-sexual touch which could be used good with humor so you make a joke, it could be some touching or when you're just building rapport if they make a joke and you laugh sometimes it's okay to put a hand on a shoulder touch the forearm something like that is a great area to release oxytocin and then last but not least is open ventral displays I'll tell you, Bill Clinton had this down pat he really did I mean he had this down pat so ventral being the open side the underside so when you talk imagine this is commanding so this says hey you're going to do this you're going to do this but this is inviting hey why don't you come with me and we'll go do this together so inviting or commanding which one would you rather be if you're saying commanding it's going to be much harder for you to build rapport inviting works well and you can do this without any words so of course adding words makes more sense if I were to stand there for an hour going not going to really mean too much to any of you but when you mix it with words it says I trust you any ventral side head tilts is another ventral display because it says I bear my neck to you so it makes it easy you've got to be careful with head tilts guys especially if you're not a natural head tilter and you try to tilt your head and it's too much this is the way you look you've got a robotic eye contact and you're smile and you get that okay that is not good no rapport has been built I've ruined every bouncer rapport with any of you in the room right now so you don't want to do that but you practice this you practice these things so you get the right it doesn't take a lot of head tilt it's not extreme it's really very slight amount of head tilt and you may have noticed I was doing it the whole time while I was up here I was having a really genuine smile and using open ventrals and it says something about you as a person says I trust you I'm open, I'm happy it's okay to be my friend and it really builds rapport very very very fast so how do you put this all together before we get to questions because this is one of the big things that comes up all the time is after you talk about these things people say well how do you practice this what do you do with all of this it really is with your family because you can be yourself with your family you can practice with it, you can screw up and they're still going to love you, because they're your family so it's okay to practice with your family and also what I find is family gatherings any time that you have a large gathering is a great time to start practicing these things when I started learning this my goal was to try to pick one and practice one at a time so you can overdo it some of these may come naturally to you like it is more common that you'll see women be natural at head tilting women will also be better at the non-sexual touch than guys so if you're a female and you're practicing these things you may naturally be better at some of these genuine smiles anyone can practice these and see the effect, notice it try to really pay attention of what happens to the people you're interacting with when you try these things you'll see your relationships will open up communications will open up and that's when you can start applying this to actual security and social engineering and I know this is a weird topic for a security conference but when we do SE pen testing like we actually get paid to break into places and I know a lot of people call that red teaming but I kind of think there's a difference because red teaming is like you're scaling the walls and picking locks and you know you're breaking in the dead of night our normal MO is to go into a company with a broad daylight broad daylight, middle of the day we walk in and we have some pretext what we're supposed to be there and I find that it works much better when you can use influence with your targets instead of manipulation they like you and then when you come back later on and tell them that you broke in and that you have to do education at this point you're not the bad guy that made them feel dirty and bad you know like they were scared or fear they feel good about having met you and that works so much better when you apply these principles and the side benefit as a security professional is if you can master these it just makes you have better relationships overall and it makes it easier just to be a human and then where's that guy that asked about well morality, catch up with technology maybe I don't see it happening but I think that's something that we can all work on what do we have left, good we got plenty of time for questions because that's usually what happens so, sir kind of a question on the interplay between eye contact yes okay so the question was if you look at people are they less likely to let you get closer, is that the question I actually find that to be the opposite you know what's amazing is two years ago or so we had Apollo Robbins Apollo Robbins was here, him and I gave a speech together and he actually taught me something really amazing about pickpocketing and how he gets to do it and actually he uses eye contact because if you look at somebody it's very they will really really break the eye contact from you if you're not being creepy right and then you can direct them so if I were let's say if you were my target I were to walk up to you and I would make eye contact with you, you know I'm about to interact with you and then if I were to start off with excuse me can I ask you a quick question and I would here's my map I'm lost can you tell me where I'm at this I've just directed your focus to look at me then my map and now my hand can be anywhere right and well that sounded really creepy but you know what I meant then my hand is on your stomach rubbing it softly releasing oxytocin yes that's exactly what I meant I hope that answered it without too much creepiness yes ma'am yes okay so you know there's actually a research paper and I can't say this about you because I don't know you okay so I'm just going to give you some things I know because you look like you have a very friendly face and a warm face you have a wonderful smile yes thank you so she asked she said that when she stands there like just alone people have told her she seems unapproachable so she asked that there's any advice to become more approachable here's something that often happens to many of us you hear about the study on RBF okay I don't have to say it right so um resting bad face we'll just say that because there's kids in the room okay so what happens is and many of us may be guilty of this when you're in thought you make this face and what is this hmm yes but what is it what emotion yes I'm sorry not fear anger who said it raise your hand please excellent anger so you may not know everyone said something different but either way whatever people said it was a bad one so if we have that kind of thinking face people look at us and they go I want to approach something's bad right also certain nonverbals tend to be unapproaching like I tend to stand very chest out chin up and that makes me unapproachable right so I don't want to do this that makes me look like I'm now damaged but lowering the shoulders a little bit and putting my hand in my pocket can say look I'm not you know I gesture so much too I've actually slapped people walking by which I have and I was gesturing and I was like oh my god I'm so sorry so I've actually done that mistakenly you know so you have to be careful with body language if you making yourself like a wall think about in the animal kingdom when there's a fight about to occur what usually happens most animals make themselves bigger like gorillas put their chest out peacocks put their feathers out animals make themselves bigger before they're about to get aggressive so when we make ourselves bigger we're basically saying I'm ready to be aggressive so try to make yourself a little smaller and I don't know if you do these things you know you're kind of small as it is so I don't know how much smaller you can be you'll be like she's a pokeball right now I don't know you know so smiling would also work great yeah working on a genuine smile hey we have someone at the mic thank you and it's not on thanks Evan thanks really love you do you have any other examples of para language in addition to sigh yeah so um sigh laughter so you all feel bad for me now because I gotta um there are many examples well let me think about some okay because that is not something that's clear in my head and I don't want to give you a fake answer because I hate doing that um any kind of audible distress signal so so what we're what I'm talking about in para language is something that will trigger an inquiry as to your well-being so people will go oh man they just like kind of make noises like they're hurt um sighing um sniffling these things are indicators that something is not right and it could trigger a response from someone asking you what's wrong are they usually audible usually they're audible so people can hear them thank you you're welcome yes man she added one hmm it actually has worked on me before at the grocery store standing in the line someone behind me goes hmm and I've turned to look that for me or was that something else and it does it brings a curiosity cause you want to know what was it about yeah good one thank you you're gonna actually ask me a question really you live with me um a lot of people have different by language like one thing for them can mean a totally different thing for another person even though it may be the exact same movement or audible noise so how can you tell the difference that's a good question and you see why I'm screwed right you guys all see it right so um some good things unlike micro expressions body language is not universal there are cultural body language and hand signals and things like that like how many of you when you were a kid this was um got your nose right got your nose got your nose game don't play got your nose in turkey cause this is the vulgar sign for female genitalia right so so you gotta know cultural what body language means you know um Michelle from Japan she says if you wanted if your parent was gonna call a child they do it like this this is like come fight this is come here and this is a different story so you have to understand I think culturally what your body language is saying it's very important um otherwise it can become off offensive it can come off really offensive if you don't but I still think that there are certain things that tend to be um and I don't want to use the the word universal cause that's not the case with body language but that tend to be more standard you know things like the touching um you have to understand culturally what's acceptable but there still are areas that are unacceptable touching in most cultures right the private areas that you would not touch regardless of what culture you're in so I think it's just a matter of learning about the culture of the people that you're interacting with and then um understanding what that may mean for them yes sir all the time are you kidding yeah so one of the one of the best things I've ever done in my life is learn how to read facial expressions but it's also one of the worst things I've ever done in my life because when you first start learning um you feel like you have a superpower right because you see people's emotion and then you know what they're feeling but you know what but you don't know why right and it's something I learned personally from Dr. Ekman just because I could see it and you have it but let's say you showed anger um I could say oh that guy's angry because he hates my speech and he doesn't like me but maybe you have a bad back and you moved and your back just twinge a little bit and that made you flash anger right or maybe you got a text message from someone you don't like and that's what made you show anger and it's really horrible to assume it's about me right so I can see the emotion but I can't I can't know why unless I do one thing and that's ask questions which it may not Hanna so I think um I've had it backfire often because I've misread someone's emotional content and then made assumptions and I understood why now I try to control that I've been working on that so it's but it does take some time all the way in the back yes you hi sure so she asked about positive power language so audible noises that express emotion right so a laughter laughter right it tells people that you're having a good time doesn't it um a gasp will tell people what says what yeah surprise or fear right one of those things so um not that you would ever hear this you know like a grunt like anyway yeah if you heard that you probably just would run the other way cause that guy's like giving you the psychotic half-smile overhead tilt right yeah that's a bad one but the other two were good sir can you say a mirroring and mimicking body language ah that's a great question it was about mirroring and mimicking body language so I actually love this this question because um in the in the late 80s early 90s we taught that uh not we but you know the psychologist sales people they taught that uh mirroring was a was a really uh positive thing to do all the time but it can really backfire because if you mirror too much and you get caught what happens you've ruined report and trust right so what we say is is um is notice the the like let's say the person sitting or they relax or they tense and you can mimic to an extent but you don't want to mirror right so example if the person is is sitting with their arms crossed like this right um maybe maybe you you cross one you know you cross one arm you know you were that or you just put your hand up like this that could be um a similar expression of relaxation but you don't want to follow every movement because maybe this is comfortable for you too so you sit like this but then you move a minute later and you do this and you scratch your head and I scratch on my head and then you put your hand down I'll put my hand down but what happens eventually if you get caught it becomes like you're parroting and it ruins report so it can actually make it really bad tons of hands okay let's see yes little one so besides the generational issue that you were talking about with your grandmother in eye contact are there other aspects of age difference that come into play with nonverbal communication yeah so the question was age difference uh do they come into play with nonverbal and it certainly does doesn't it because um depending on your age it will seem more or less appropriate to act or be a certain way like for example um it would be highly inappropriate even if I can master non-sexual touch for me to walk up to let's say a 15 year old girl and do it right I mean imagine if that was your daughter and I'm now practicing rapport building with non-sexual touch on your 15 year old daughter I'm getting shived right I mean it's not it's not good it doesn't matter if it works if it's psychology it doesn't matter it's not it's bad don't do it right so definitely you have to be aware of all of those things your age your size your status who you are and who your target is because if you don't you can really mess up by using the wrong type of non-verbal so yes you must worry about that sir there's two let's go with the guy in the back then you yeah so the question was how do you do this when you're not in person okay so you're right a lot of this is geared more towards in-person interaction with influence well through email and and voice chat and phone that's a whole different talk but I will give you there's a lot of steps to it that don't involve any of this but your your non-verbals do affect your voice especially when you're doing fishing right so if you smile it actually changes the tone in your voice as when you frown right if you actually play the part non-verbally so if I'm calling I'm supposed to be the IT guy and I know a lot then you sit up straight you puff your chest out there's a great social psychologist Amy Cooley she has an amazing TED talk if you haven't seen it you should watch it she talks about power posing and how posing for two minutes and like the Wonder Woman pose before you go do something that you're nervous about doing yeah arms up in the air the different poses that that you see powerful people do doing that for just two minutes before you take part of the activity that's making you nervous will will feed your body with the proper chemicals and emotions to make you feel powerful basically you're essaying yourself you're tricking yourself to saying yes I am confident your brain doesn't catch up for a little while until it's over then it goes darn you Chris you really weren't confident and that's what will happen when I go up the stage you'll be like I know you were faking and then I'll be exhausted back there on the floor dripping with sweat sir so as someone who... yeah dude stop yeah so that's actually good I don't have any great advice for you right now I'm gonna think about it okay because I don't want to give you wrong advice but I think it's just a matter of recognizing your target that you're speaking to and how they're interacting right like I don't feel right now that your eye contact is intense or inappropriate right I think what could be the worst is if you're making eye contact with people then your eyes wander and they're wondering if you're paying attention right so I think it's okay like you're the things to watch for are intent gazing or what do they call that like where you're kind of daydreaming where you're not really looking at someone you're looking through them and yeah like zoning out right so you kind of do yeah I'm really listening to you that could be dangerous so you want to watch out for that but like our interaction here I don't feel like you're overly intense at all it's kind of nice actually I met that in a good way I really did I really did yeah I I can't tell you why I'd have to see you standing in public and then I'll come up and talk to you you know some people have very friendly faces you ever noticed that they just their body language and their face just makes you look like I think I can trust you right and and that that's that that could be good I can also be bad because you know Ted Bundy had that face so just saying be careful right so he asked a question about deescalating if you get caught you're saying so if you get caught that's a really good question I don't have a great answer to because we really get caught and I know that sounds really horrible as an arrogant answer and I don't mean it that way I'm trying to think about if I like so you're saying if someone were to say and I know your head tilting just I guess I don't under maybe you can clarify I don't know okay okay so they're questioning your motive yeah yes yep yep 100% so I think what you do with that so let's say you practice this and you say I'm going to go into the building with a nice head tilt open ventures and a smile and the person you know doesn't fall for it right they're like wait what company you're from I don't have you on the record I think to continue doing that is going to make you seem a little weird no really I'm supposed to be here right so I think you have to change your you can't stick with it going but I'm building oxytocin and report right let me touch you you know so I think you I think well I can be really misconstrued but I think I think you have to I think you have to think about your proper emotion if you were the person that you're saying you are so if I'm the IT guy and I'm being stopped what would be the proper emotion well it may be anger but I always say don't ever show anger in an engagement ever there's no place for it your security professional you're there to educate don't ever show anger but can you be a little irritated can you be like now I don't know why I'm on the list all I know is I got a call from Bob he told me to get my butt down here and fix this machine what do you want me to do I'm doing my job just like you right and kind of put it back on them but have the proper level of emotional response that's what I usually do you know no problem my rule in my company is never break pretext never break it no matter what even when you get caught I got locked in a closet once I did I still never broke pretext what no no no we didn't play spin the bottle on the cause I got locked in the closet by two security guards that's a beautiful question can I have another hour is there any way to protect yourself from being manipulated about these things am I out of time I have 31 seconds to answer your question go through the tunnel I don't I don't think so I think it's just being aware of what it feels like when this is working on you and then knowing if someone does this what their requests are and if the request the next request that comes is inappropriate to realize that you are being manipulated and not influenced right because being influenced necessarily isn't a bad thing you know it's not necessarily a bad thing if someone is trying to get you to do something that's not terribly bad but you want to know what it feels like when it's working against you in a bad way and then be able to stop it guys I'd love to answer more of your questions but we have another speaker thank you