 All right, we are starting it up. This is the second meeting of the Jenkins Pipeline Authoring SIG. My apologies for the schedule changes and lack of follow-ups on things. Yeah, it's been a busy month, but it's good to be back. There's nobody new here so far, though I saw Steven Tarana here and then disappear. So hopefully he'll show up again. I assume that since I didn't follow up on anything in the docs and examples discussions in the last time that nobody else did either. Yeah, no, I haven't had a chance either. Yeah. I will try to remember next week to send emails about that. I'm at KivCon this week, so my brain is melted. Do you still accept agenda items? Yes, that's why I have other items. Yeah, I wanted to chat a bit about JSOC projects, current ones and probably existing ones. So if you don't mind adding them to the end, it would be nice. Not at all, especially considering I don't think we have any of the testing people here. So the end testing item looks like it probably will be quick. Yes, go ahead and edit the doc and that would be like. All right, the doc. Yeah, it's in the getter channel and in the email. So is there anybody who wants to talk about testing frameworks for pipeline today? I can provide a brief update. I've reached out to the current maintainer of pipeline unit. But yeah, I tried to get him on the call. Unfortunately, I didn't get him just his response, but I will keep trying. All right, we'll try to make sure to gather the various testing people for maybe next time, though I know that Stephen also has stuff he wants to show up next time. So on his templating stuff that he presented that, I think it's world that is now properly open source. Oh yeah, there's Stephen Turan. He's the one new person. There we go. Hello. How's everyone doing? Anybody has anything else they'd like to add to the agenda? Feel free. I see Oleg copying in stuff that he had looped me in on Freddie, so it's good stuff. Hey, Christian. Hey, can you guys hear me? Yes, we can. Apologies for arriving late. Not a problem. I, after all, did schedule the whole thing a week late, so... I believe what you're... Sorry. Oleg, what you're looking for is your idea here. Or have we already started it? Well, we didn't have any other comments about testing, so... Okay, I just didn't catch the assumption, that we go forward to the next stage. That was our fault. Okay. Yeah, sorry, I was tapped out for a second. Yeah, so I can briefly screen share, or I can provide a short update. So yeah, we are going to... Yeah, sure. If you'd like to screen share, I can... Actually, you can just take it. There we go. Okay, so I'm presenting now. Am I Mr. Jenkins today? I hope not. Okay, no. So yeah, we had just some issues with previous screen shares. So just to provide some heads up, we are starting JSOCO this year. We are currently aggregating project ideas. We haven't reached out publicly in the developer mailing list yet, but we have started reaching out to special interest groups, including this one. And actually we already have a few proposals, which are actually really related to pipeline. What we have in the list, you may see that the list is pretty big already and we are getting better. We have some proposals for REST API plugins, like Bitbucket, Jenkins from Martin. Currently, these proposals are under review, but the idea there is to actually have a kind of pipeline frameworks in order to make common steps when interacting with services. And there is a kind of discussion to actually have a replacement plugin, which would be just a single plugin doing some REST steps, something like that. So it's... Do you see my screen? Yeah. Okay, so this is one of the project ideas which are on the table. Then we have multi-branch pipeline support for GitLab. This proposal comes from Rick, he's the leader of Chinese localization SIG, but he's really interested in this proposal. And yeah, there is an ongoing discussion and thanks a lot to you, Andrew, for commenting. So I hope we'll aggregate, maybe not Andrew, but somebody commented. And if you haven't commented yet, guys, it may be something interesting to you. And last but not least, we recover the Artifact Promotion plugin for Jenkins Pipeline Story. So it's one of the most voted tickets in Jenkins Jira, more than 120 votes. So having a kind of promotion engine for Jenkins Pipeline for those ones who want to have some manual steps or semi-automatic steps when something happens. So not just a single pipeline, but a way to somehow promote artifacts produced by this pipeline. So we have these projects. And yes, we are looking for some other project ideas, including whatever idea you may have, including pipeline test frameworks, including documentation, documentation generators, pipeline enhancements. So if anybody on this call is interested, we're actually looking for ideas. And if you want, there is a guideline on how to propose project ideas, but generally you just copy one project proposal template and send us a message in whatever charts so that we get that process then published. So this is still there for this page. There is more details, but actually if you send us a kind of short proposal with some fields, we will be able to process that, to publish that to help you to get the projects delivered. So yeah, that's what I wanted to talk about. Yeah, we are looking for proposals. And if you have something in mind, just let us know. What? Yeah, my first thought on that is starting from our last meeting that I wonder if that, figuring out how to organize and present documentation and examples might be a worthwhile do SOC project. I'm not sure. It's not just writing documentation, but how do we, what's the framework for taking submissions, for examples, how do we have like maybe a voting mechanism for selecting the best examples, things like that. Do you think that might be worthwhile? Yeah. So current conditions for GSOC, that Google Summer of Code is about coding. Gotcha. So even if you have documentation as code, probably documentation doesn't qualify. Understood. But whatever engines for generating documentation, whatever engines for enhancement of the mechanisms is something which could be done. So specifically we can't have them work on process problems, but we can have them work on the engine that would help that process. It might be interesting to do something like the Cata-Coda in-browser tutorial type sessions where you could use something like Jenkins file runner to be able to run snippets, specific implementation aside, being able to have code snippets that are runnable from documentation. Yeah. Sometimes we could actually do Cata-Coda. Yeah. So Jenkins file runner is a work in progress, and I was thinking about proposing at least one project idea in this area. Actually last week I created CI Jenkins file runner, and I was thinking about proposing something in this area, but if there is interest to create demos, it's totally something we could do. Am I still screenshot? Yes, you are. Yeah. I just messed up everything a bit. So yeah. I have... What's going on with my browser? Yeah. You stopped screen sharing. Now we just see you. And then I stopped making you present everybody as well. Okay. I've never done this before, so I'm just hitting buttons and seeing what happens. Okay. Hitting buttons is something that happens nobody's ever done this. Woo! Yeah. So we messed up with several broadcasts recently. Yeah. We are working on it. Okay. So CI Jenkins file runner is what I wanted to propose, but actually the idea would be used for CataCoder or whatever examples. So if somebody is interested, we could definitely try doing that. Yeah. Does anybody else have any ideas? We can move back on this. We'll put this on the agenda. What's the deadline for getting projects ideas? So the deadline for proposing project ideas is late January for us. But early it happens. Early we can start community outreach, looking for potential mentors, et cetera. And that's why we reach out to special interest groups now. So you said January? Yeah. January. Okay. So the deadline is before the next one of our... Yeah. So what I asked from the CIC participants now and I will probably duplicate it in the email, that if you have any idea just to put a kind of brain dump here or anywhere else. And if somebody is interested, if we have two plus potential mentors interested in something, we can get that published. Yeah. I'll start a thread, or if you'd like to start a thread on the mailing list. Yeah. Right now I'll stop my head because I'm conference brain drained and time zone confused. I know there's got to be things I'm not picking up. So I'm sure there is something. We just need to think of what it is. I mean, working on the test frameworks, there may be something there. We don't have any of the test framework contributors here right now. So... Yeah, great. But there's... We've got to be able to find something interesting. Yeah. Can you present to everyone again? Yeah, right. I'm not sure what's going on. Something changed in Hangouts output. I can start screen sharing. There is no button to stop screen sharing. No, you stop screen sharing. It's just that I was all set you to present it all. Okay. Maybe it happened automatically somehow. Yeah. Again, whatever. So... If anybody has any other ideas, just let us know. I wanted to talk a bit to David about artifact promotion for pipeline, but we could probably take it offline. Yeah, that sounds good to me. Yeah, that's... I've had some ideas on that front. And I think that there's going to be offering side stuff as well as internal stuff for that. See here. Is there anything else anybody would like to talk about right now? If not, that's okay. I'm thinking that we'll stick with second Wednesday in the month, so they're like, we don't have our meeting right after New Year's next month. Sounds good. Yeah. One of the topics I would probably like to ask is about Jenkins FedRunner. So currently it has no umbrella special interest group. It's somewhere between pipeline authoring, cloud native and platform, depending of how you will position that. And actually my question to the SIG participants was whether you would like to see it as a part of pipeline authoring SIG or whether you prefer it to be somewhere else? I think probably somewhere else. I mean, the pipeline authoring SIG, I think, would be concerned with how behavior would differ within the Jenkins FedRunner versus the classic pipeline execution. But I think we're focused on the authoring experience rather than the internals primarily. Yeah. Sorry. It makes sense. Sort of related to that, since this is my first meeting, do we have a charter or something similar to that that outlines exactly what the scope of our SIG is focused on? It should be documented on this. Yeah. The SIG description page should talk about what we have in mind. Thank you. Where are the SIGs? They're coming in YouTube. Yeah, community. Oh, I should update this to put our meeting schedule on here. Yeah. So syntax, code sharing and reuse, testing, integration, et cetera, documentation, test practices and examples are our focus areas. Awesome. So sorry, go ahead. Yeah. I just wanted to say that JSO project IDs in the list generally don't clarify for pipeline authoring SIG. They relate. They relate. We'll see. Yeah. Anybody have anything else they'd like to bring up? If you're just viewing it, if you want to stay in the Gitter channel, that's cool. I would like to ask Stephen Toronto to show off his work on what he's calling Jenkins template engine, which has just been properly open source in the last couple days. We'll hopefully be in the Jenkins CI org and update center by next month. Which is, I think, an interesting angle to look at in terms of authoring and of interest to people involved in this SIG. Yeah, I'm looking forward to showing you guys what we've been working on. Cool. One question I've got with regards to our focus areas. We say we are interested in the best practices, defining, maintaining and evangelizing best practices in the Jenkins pipeline or with regards to Jenkins pipeline. However, there has been a couple of instances without that's a month or more back in time where people were told on our Gitter channel to ask elsewhere like the general Jenkins channel for support with the Jenkins pipeline questions. I was wondering, is that something we could make a stand on? What's OK? Do you prefer that they ask in our Gitter channel? But maybe that's just me. Maybe there's a different opinion here. I mean, I would enter if you want to take this. You can. But I would separate this in terms of questions about, hey, how do I write blah in pipeline? Are less about the best practices for the authoring of that pipeline and more just how do I do this? And that's not as interesting for the SIG. So if those are the kind of questions that came through, that would be the separation in my mind anyways. Obviously, people are always welcome to answer whatever they'd like. Yeah, it's a good question. I'm not really sure. Well, I absolutely appreciate the point that was made by, sorry, I forgot to name all right. Liam, thanks. I think wanting to evangelize, wanting to share best practices, it's kind of productive to that goal if we shoot people away even if they're asking stupid questions. If they ask a stupid question, I'd rather we refer them to the same link over and over and say, hey, sorry, we already sent you the link. We need to check it out instead of, you know, feeling like we need to waste our time answering each and every stupid question or ignorant, stupid, you get what I mean. Having that as an open arena, but that's, again, my opinion, my impressions. I would also say that if the same quote, stupid questions coming up frequently, that might be indicative of something not being intuitive enough. Yeah, sure. And figuring out if there's ways to improve documentation or change things so it doesn't keep coming up. Yeah, I mean, there's a semi-human knowledge base is not the worst thing, or at least a frontline to a knowledge base. I mean, obviously, if someone comes in and goes, it goes buggy when I do blah, it's, you know, why did it stop working? I mean, that's support questions, which are not necessarily the right venue. But how can I do acts? I think does actually fit in that it's, it's not just lost in the, you know, the main Jacobs channel's noise. And it's a group that are thinking about, okay, what are the best practices in coming to an agreement on that stuff for the people to ask? So I think, I think that how do I do something is a reasonable question. But ideally, yeah, the answer should be, oh yeah, here's the line. Here's where you can go. You should do this. Not having to write everything in the channel every time. Sounds like the general consensus of the ones who've spoken is that we would like to be welcoming and open and that we don't mind people asking. We just mind that they expect us to involve ourselves or answer, especially when the questions themselves are not really researched or made a lot of effort into like, why doesn't, why didn't you break? Well, give me some details and I might answer, you know. So could we make some proclamation of that on the description so that people know they could access us on the get a channel for a purpose? That's something people would be comfortable with or am I pushing an agenda people are not agreeing with? Well, I think there's value in having something like a standard operating procedure of looking for support of we'll always answer questions and be helpful, but here's the frequently asked questions page with common questions and here's like a troubleshooting flow chart of, you know, common ways we're going to suggest that you approach solving a problem you're having. And if you get through that and you're still stuck, come help. And pointers to where to go for more advanced strength is internal assistance as well. I don't want us to suddenly feel an obligation to debug people's weird Jenkins internal issues because they happen to get to them from pipeline questions. You know what I mean? Because I mean, again, if people want to, they can do that, but I don't think that should be a, having an obligatory aspect to it. No, I agree. That's a perfectly valid point to make that I wholeheartedly agree with. So I mean, one thing Andrew, I did actually, Devin, maybe I think what you said was the idea of having an FAQ that we can sort of a standard. Yeah, I think that would be helpful. I feel like there's a lot of questions that come up fairly frequently that are, and it's something that'd be a living document. We're going to see patterns over time of the same questions coming up or the same genre of questions coming up and having something in place where like an SOP of this is, this is the expectation before coming for support just because we've aggregated it and we might be able to help you faster through an FAQ. And then if you are still stuck after reading through that, then please come talk to us. Because it's good to have a first line of defense that's like these are the common problems that we get asked a lot. Here's the resources to go find what you need. Yeah, that would be an interesting thing to get started. Yeah, do you want to try drafting a new description? Sure. We'll probably get some time to do that over Christmas. I think we can probably wrap up unless anybody has anything else they'd like to talk about right now. Okay. Thank you all for showing up. My apologies again for the chaos in live communication. We'll get better. And yep, next meeting, January 9th, 2019. Oh, God, 2019. At 4pm UTC, same time. Stephen will present his work on the Jenkins Templating Engine and if there's other agenda items, people would like to just bring them up on Gitter or on the mailing list and we'll see what we can do. Okay, thanks everyone. Thanks. Thank you all very much. Bye, thanks.