 Let's live a healthier life. Let's produce our food better. Let's clean up our environment. Yeah, you know Let's try to avoid cancer our national toxicology program here in the US the United Nations You know several very important scientific bodies have worn and have told us, you know The way to a healthier future is not necessarily through better pharmaceuticals, right? Yeah, it's true a healthier way of living and producing food and consuming food and taking care of our environment Kerry Gillum is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas brought to you by 1.5 media and innovators magazine Kerry is a veteran journalist researcher and writer with more than 25 years of experience in the news industry covering corporate America her 2017 book about pesticide dangers whitewash the story of a weed killer cancer and the corruption of science won the 2018 Rachel Carson book award from the Society of Environmental Journalists and Has become a part of the curriculum and several university environmental health programs as a former senior Correspondent for Reuters international news service Gillum specializes in finding the story behind the spin Uncovering both the risks and rewards of the evolving new age of agriculture Gillum's area of expertise include biotech crop technology Agrochemicals and pesticide product development and the environmental impacts of American food production Gillum's reporting and writing have led her to become recognized as an international expert on corporate control of Agriculture and the health and environmental impacts of a pesticide dependent food system She was asked to testify before the European Parliament in 2017 about her findings and Was an invited speaker to the world forum for democracy in Strasbourg, France in 2019 she also has been featured speaker as at many different events throughout North America Australia the Netherlands Brussels and France Gillum left Reuters in late 2015 becoming a research director for the nonprofit Organization u.s. Right to know an investigative group focused on exposing corporate wrongdoings and Government failures that threaten the integrity of our food system our environment our health He also writes for the Guardian She just had article or come out about Mexico and Will maybe touch on that a little bit Gillum resides in Overland Park, Kansas With her husband and three children Kerry welcome to the show. It's so good to have you here Thank you. Thanks for having me. That's a long introduction Well, you've been doing this for a while and I'm so glad to have you and it's well deserved. I always say Yeah, I could make it shorter, but you've been doing this for a while and been doing very well For a while and I want to make sure you get your accolades, but I also want our listeners to know, you know You know your stuff you've been around for a while you've had the heart fights and you've also had the hard criticisms and People come after you in some respects Kind of touching on on that Before we go any further. I just had Maria Rodale on the show. She's going to be Podcasts is going to be released tomorrow from organic manifesto She also received the wonderful Rachel Carson Award, which you received, which is a wonderful Accolade and group, but I happen to have Rachel Carson's silent Springs book here right in front of me And it is one of the pinnacle books that started out a lot of things silent spring Not only environmental climate and also the big thing around DDT, which is a Monsanto issue I Believe you know that I do a lot around global food reform around our food systems and working with the United Nations on this UN food system summit that will be in New York in September this year all around how can we fix our food systems to make it better for human health and reduce human suffering but also for our environmental problems that are occurring and So the question really is with all this breath of experience writing the journalism But actually being right there front and center present with the people who have been involved in all this We've just experienced Well months or more or more of craziness lockdowns black lives matters You know all sorts of unrest around the world the inauguration and and real frankly legal Legal Issues where people have gone off the hook for some pretty bad things, you know going on around the world This is a beautiful story where that didn't happen, but I want to ask you How did you weather all this pandemic is all that experience say hey? Don't worry. I knew this was coming I've been reporting on it I've made it through but how has this time been for you? You know, I think Gosh, I don't know that I have been resilient, you know, I think that I have struggled in the ways that many people have you know depression anxiety Concern fear for yourself your kids your family members and that sort of thing I think what I did early on maybe that was different than what other people did is because I've been a journalist for so long and I find my comfort and my security and data, you know looking at data looking at documents tracking information Because I think that's you know, that's how you know, what's true I don't I don't take my truth from talking heads on on television news shows You know, I want to see the data and the documents and so where I live In Kansas early on I you know went to the Kansas Health Department website every day and started looking at alright Who you know, what are the demographics of the people who are getting infected and you know What is the death rate look like and who are the people in and began to understand pretty quickly that you know Or this was primarily something that affected older individuals, sicker individuals, you know, there was a lot of different characteristics of the disease about who was going to get it more seriously and And that gave me a little bit of comfort that perhaps myself and my family You know, we weren't going to die if we stepped outside Similarly, you know, you look at you know masking and other things that show you know some sort of science I looked at the science behind the masking and there was quite a debate early on You know, but but more recently it's been shown that this really does affect the the transmission rate. So You know, I'm going down a rabbit hole here. I guess but I my comfort as I said is always found in data and information and facts and You know, we've we've seen A real challenge to that. Um, as you alluded to with people trying to You know cover things up and to lie about things not necessarily COVID here, but you know racial matters Political matters, you know election issues here in the united states There are all sorts of forces out there that are trying to put forward false information false narratives Um to confuse uh to enrage to drive movements and drive actions And I think people get caught up in that and this this insecurity And the sense of fear that's come with the pandemic with the covid situation Is is causing people to just latch on to whatever they can to feel that they have some sort of control I think and it's been a dangerous time here in the us And I think around the world And you know, I think we're not out of it yet. You know, I think we're still there but Goes to the bigger picture, you know Don't just don't just listen to talking heads on tv You know, try to find information for yourself try to get to the root try to look at the sources as best you can to get data to get information To understand, you know, what are the risks? What are the relative, you know factors that are going to be be Meaningful to you and to your family and and react in that way I don't know if that answered your question It definitely did and it's multifaceted. I mean, we're talking months and I think there are some interesting things that are bubbled up there One of them to kind of be more specific and And and continue our journey on is with whitewash you didn't have a pandemic to release your book It was it wasn't in a lockdown, but the monsanto papers are Even more Great book powerful book great read So there's there's some new adjustments. Well, how do you launch a book? How do you talk about such a a sensitive topic and and also bring out the reality of those data's During a time where we're in lockdown and it's you know, it's all virtual. I think we're we're doing a pretty good job And I've I've seen I'm glad that you're working with island press a wonderful Organization that really helps and and does that right, but I mean that's one thing The other thing is really The Monsanto papers and what happened to Lee Johnson is really Something that's happened many times before not only DDT and age and orange But also we had the tobacco industry. We've had other other issues in with Pollution and acid rain and things that that have affected human health. And so I'm just wondering are there any similarities now, you know, cobit. We're we're talking it could be an encroachment on Other species zoonotic species and things that are bubbling up where humanity is encroaching on certain areas that are unknowns and You know, maybe it could come out another 10 years that you know Something there is created some issues worldwide for us. And so I more or less wanted to mainly know what what your learnings are been or how How you've been launching a book talking about these subjects Did they give you any any things or say? Oh, I've kind of talked about this coming out And and so those are all interesting for me to know and I think you answered it perfectly But if you have any more to add I'd love to hear it. Well in terms of launching a book during a pandemic Um, gosh, I wish we were, you know, can you believe it's been almost a year? Or has been a year, I guess, you know, since we Fell into this but uh, you know, I yeah, I don't know the book comes out March 2nd. I hope people will read it It's it's a Story that, you know, it's it was very difficult for me to write it points, you know It's a story of one man Lee Johnson He was the first it's a true story He was the first person to go to trial against monsanto the first person to win this, you know multi-million dollar verdict By a jury that found that monsanto's roundup products indeed do cause cancer and cause lee's cancer And lee has just been someone who's suffered horribly Middle middle age middle income father to, you know, just a working guy just trying to really, you know Pull himself up by the bootstraps and provide a good solid life for his family and You know the story talks about how he You know became ill and and how he got in his terminal diagnosis told that he was going to die soon You know having to leave his boys How he finds a lawyer and how this case builds and builds and builds and the secrets that come out through monsanto's internal documents and How that became basically a global You know story to to the extent that bear which bopman santo is now paying over 11 billion dollars to settle cases like lee's in the united states so Um, you know, I think it's it's a powerful story. It's meaningful for people all over the world It's told through the lens of of lee's journey both to fight to stay alive and to fight to bring monsanto to justice You know, i'm i'm happy about it But again, you know, it's coming out on march 2nd and people have bigger concerns So I don't know maybe nobody reads in a pandemic or maybe everybody reads in a No, they they definitely read in a pandemic a matter of fact So we're doing a podcast now and what we've seen who's actually seen podcast Dip as far as listeners because they're more at home. There's other things. There's more tv more news Other things, especially inauguration no time But the minute we come out of that pause cat go will go up But people have been reading they've been ordering books like crazy. So physical reads I don't think you have to worry and this is such a A compelling story the way you write it the way You really get us to Um Get to know lee and a matter of fact one of my uncles the great uncles is his name was lee johnson and and very similar type of upbringings and As the lee johnson in the book and it was it was a wonderful read. I love to hear about sort of very sad very Trying and and a lot of that but it's important to to to know that I've also had to deal with buyer and other Legal lawyers on the other side where I've had to you know sue because of my own health because of things like that And so I know what a grueling legal battle pulling back the curtains and corruption as in in in that Uh firsthand and so it was really interesting to see the success of of the story and the papers and and and what happened and and um, you know What all came out of this was was fabulous. I I want to if it's okay with you Just a little bit before kind of almost set up with your prior book whitewash, which I read and loved as well um Your journey on this was kind of a longer journey with With monzanto were originally you were almost friends or acquaintances or reporting or as a journalist Working together with monzanto. So I sort of say I don't know if that's the right wording. I'm using You actually knew the ceo at one time before he became ceo and there was a little bit Journey behind there and then you you through that process saw there's something else going on. They're uh, asking me to do things that aren't right or and then it went so far as you know kind of Threats and against you and that can you tell us a little bit of how how that occurred and and then how you even got into Going from that into now the monzanto papers and was that really what kind of solidified that? No, we definitely need to bring this to the the light Yeah, so long story. So, you know, I've covered corporate america as you said in your introduction pretty much all of my career you know three decades roughly now And uh, you know, so as a journalist when you cover big companies, I mean, I covered some of the biggest banking companies in in america Um, the company that is now bank of america You know, I had the the chairman of bank of america in my face yelling at me I've had a lot of very powerful business people men mostly You know yell and curse and try to Get me to write stories the way they want them to be written and you know, I mean, I think that's natural though anytime You are Challenging the narrative or writing something that doesn't put somebody in the best light, you know, they're going to push back So that's just to be expected and as a journalist you you know that comes with the The job and you just make sure that your facts are You know always locked down and that you're fair and that you present, you know the proper context um With monzanto when I started covering the company in 1998, uh, you know, they very quickly it became A little bit of a different animal They would, you know, who reporters and bring them to headquarters and you know, show them around and feed them and You know beautiful lunches and things like that and have events and really try to teach us How to report about their business And why we should discount Information or criticism or science or anything that detracted from how wonderful their products were and you know, all the great things that they were doing and so, you know, I mean I appreciated the the education and the information, you know, they taught me a lot about, you know, genetically Modifying, you know seeds and the benefits of pesticides and chemicals and and how those those two products, you know affected farming practices I spent a lot of time with farmers and then I started spending time with scientists and with, um, you know agronomists then agricultural economists then seed company people and You know, it's just I've been in Thousands of farm fields, you know across america over the years And so over time it became clear that everything monzanto was telling me You know, it wasn't always the the way that things actually worked And they didn't actually play out on the ground that way and there were actually a lot of problems developing In the environment and in farm fields and there was some safety concerns about their herbicides glyphosate and Roundup and others and you know as as I followed the story And as the science evolved and as I wrote more and more about the science and the science indicated more and more Harm and concern associated with monzano's products monzano got pretty upset with me. You know, I work for Reuters Giant, you know international news organization our stories my stories went around the world and were read by millions of people So they really didn't want me to write anything That put their products in a negative light and they began a campaign to You know silence me harass me intimidate me Get me removed from my beat at Reuters You know, just this went on and on and on for years And we know a little bit of it because internal monzano documents that came out through the roundup litigation speak about Carrie Gillam and what a pain in the ass I am and how they want to get me off my beat and We have documents showing how they wanted to smear my first book whitewash try to get third-party Negative reviews posted that didn't look like they came from monzano But you know looked like they were independent negative reviews and you know, I just a lot has come out about That they spent a lot of time and effort and money to Ruin my reputation To make sure people didn't listen to what I did They tried to get the guardian to stop working with me to stop taking stories I had a piece in time magazine about lee johnson a couple years ago. They tried to get The time magazine editors to stop, you know, I mean it just Any work that I do they have tried to silence me and So It's been a challenge Yeah, you usually, you know, if people are trying this hard to tell you to shut up you, you know It usually means you should talk louder. So That's really and and so I mean that really I want to kind of like to take a little bit of a journey on Look more touching on the food and agriculture as well and then Going more into the book as well So so you've been doing this for a while. You've really Agree with us one big proponent so a big fan a person i'm a big fan of is Bill night of science guy and for a long time he was just like, you know gmo's suck and And they're awful and horrible and stay away from him and during this time he really just Kind of made this transition. He also kind of went to the offices and and Of monsanto and met with the ceo and and had this thing and he came back and he said no gmo's are fine But I still have this feel strong feeling that he's really against Obviously round up and chemicals and seeds and and some other things I think because it's still kind of a weird feeling but in my my question to you Is there some things that you're willing to share with us about your your thoughts and feelings on gmo's and and how can maybe a company like now buy your monsanto or Is it are they still doing good somewhere but doing horrific bad elsewhere? Is it kind of both sides of that coin or or is it really? Uh, she kind of followed me where I'm going with this is Is there some good in the satanic company so to say or or is it Yeah, I mean I hate to be so rough, but really Is there a silver lining or something good there or is it really all shit? I would say and this you know monsanto said this bear bear And this one said you know if the products didn't work if they weren't effective farmers wouldn't buy them right so um Yes, I mean genetically engineered crops provide benefits in certain ways Many of the benefits the benefits with um, for instance with the first Genetically engineered crops at monsanto brought out were weed resistance. They were these round up ready crops that corn and Cotton and soybeans that farmers could plant and then they could spray the life to say to round up directly over the growing crops And the crops wouldn't die, but the weeds would right farmers loved that loved it I mean, I remember you know, it came out in the 90s I was In farm fields with farmers in the late 90s and early 2000s and farmers were like this is the greatest thing ever This has made my life so much easier um But you know What happened was weeds develop resistance farmers that are having to spray more and more of the life to say They're having to do more some farmers are starting to have to till their ground again cotton farmers in particular in the south Start having real problems with these monster Super weeds that they couldn't figure out a way to kill their costs are going up their yield fields are going down um biodiversity, you know bees and birds and other Key pollinators and elements of a healthy environment are starting to be impacted You're seeing declines in the monarch butterfly because of overuse of glyphosate herbicides So, you know things that start out really great, you know, and maybe intentioned really well I mean monsanto's intention was we want to sell a lot of round up And we want to sell a lot of these seeds and farmers intention was we want our life to be a lot easier Um, so I don't think that there was evil there, right? I mean nobody set out to say we want to poison the world um But too much of a good thing can be too much of a good thing And so you then have weed resistance You then have you get this pesticide treadmill situation going where more and more herbicides are being applied The health of the soil is in decline. As I said, you're seeing pollinators in decline Farmers are not able to see the same yields in production that they were before Farmers are getting sick Because they're being so exposed to so many of these chemicals You know our water and our airs becoming polluted. So yeah, it became a really bad thing and we now are in a situation Not entirely because of round up ready crops and glyphosate, but A large part of that is is uh is due to that We're now in a situation where we're looking at genetically engineered crops that are being proposed that could Could tolerate five different herbicides. We have crops out there that these companies are encouraging farmers Well, glyphosate doesn't totally do the job. So we'll spray them with glyphosate and dicamba and to horde So the levels of pesticide residues in our foods are increasing. So the exposure That that families and children have to these pesticides now in their water and their food is increasing. So You know, I talk about that in my book pesticide treadmill It's a long way of getting back to our genetically engineered crops good or bad The technology itself a gmo to me. This is my opinion Is not bad If you can genetically engineer A crop or something In a way that truly is beneficial truly is going to be more sustainable and environmentally friendly and not be harmful to the soil or to insects or to humans or You know great bring it on That isn't really what we've seen Today by far the vast majority of genetically engineered crops planted around the world right now The most common trait in them is not, you know Increased nutrition or drought tolerance or you know disease resistant the most planted trait is Is herbicide tolerance meaning you can spray the crop with herbicide That's what it is. So it's not about the companies talk about it's about feeding the world This is about yield gain. This is about helping farmers. It's not it's really about selling herbicide. So You know that's again, that's that That's for some people. That's great. You know, if you want to sell herbicide That's a good thing if you're worried about herbicide in your diet, you know, and in your environment in your water Not a good thing. So a good thing at all. There's there's these kind of a camp that occurs or or Uh, I call it more of a trick. So big corporations, especially chemical companies tend to When it comes to environmental human health issues, they tend to Push back on the consumers, you know, and they tend to say they can't Especially environmentalists are people concerned about food they kind of almost The consumers or the end and people One against each other. So they'll like, uh, you know, the vegans against the the meat eaters or they'll The climate scientists against a certain vegan tribe or plant-based tribe or even regenerative organics Where the the real and and I say this all the time about food production, whether it's agriculture, seafood, food and beverage Production in general. It's not about the brands or the food products of the future or whether Some food tribe whether they're GMO non GMO vegan Raw whatever It's more about the way that we produce food That will have the biggest impact on human health and on our environment If we don't use chemicals pesticides, aromas, flavors, sugars on and on preservatives as well as those finite resources that are not really Seeing the true cost or the total environmental cost being calculated into those those products We're actually turning food into commodity, which is a whole nother story and another self. But so as If we if we didn't produce them in a certain way, then we wouldn't have those problems on the back end or on the armed before and so to say Yeah, exactly. And I think I hope anyway, you know more and more people are becoming aware of that or becoming, you know foodies or may not sound the right term but educated on food policy Because it is so much more than just, you know, opening your cabinet and pulling out something to eat you know, it's The food that we consume that we feed our kids is is foundational to the health of our bodies, you know to our ability to weather COVID to weather viruses to You know to not develop heart disease or, you know, certain cancers and things like that I mean the better quality the more nutritious the cleaner the food we eat You know the healthier we can be and to your point as well the health of the environment Is also very much dependent upon how we grow our food the inputs we use the pesticides That we apply the farming practices, you know that that are used So it's all critically important to our health to the sustainability, you know of the future for our kids You know, what kind of environment do we want them to be living in 20 30 40 years from now? You know, I So many people out there Are so sick, you know, you look at the the fact that what is it roughly? one in three People in the u.s. Right now are expected to get cancer in their lifetimes. My father died of cancer in october You know, I I could look up and down my street. Thank you and you know See families who have been impacted by cancer Children teenagers my son's friend, you know cancer is something we're being told we just need to live with Many other diseases and thankfully we are getting you know better at treating this and helping people survive cancer But you know, why don't Let's live a healthier life. Let's produce our food better. Let's clean up our environment Yeah, you know, let's try to avoid cancer our national toxicology program here in the u.s. The united nations You know several very important scientific bodies Have warned and have told us, you know the way to a healthier future is not necessarily through better pharmaceuticals, right? Yeah, it's it's true a healthier way of of living and producing food and consuming food and taking care of our environment. So You know, I'm definitely You're saying that Well, yeah, I mean and that's the bigger message of of both of my books and of all of the work that I do, you know It's not corporations are evil. It's We need this this knowledge so that we can work towards policies that will better protect Our our children in the future Yeah, my my mother also passed away from several forms of cancer as well 2011 but I I I come from from my mother's side from Six generations of farmers and germany's largest organic farmers and So thank goodness we had had a different View and look at chemicals chemicals and pesticides even though, you know, buyers big kind of a company and and some of the chemicals that are were very much developed in europe or for farming and things So I I kind of see that correlation For me food is really our humanity's basic energy source If you look at mazlo's hierarchy of needs the bottom two layers are very breathing food and water You know security of body security of environment health and land, you know For me those are Our basic energy sources. So I want I really concerned about what types of food I put in my body and I I hate the word not hate, but I don't like the word foodie either But I kind of am I love food and I love especially good healthy Uh tasting food good for someone and so I Also kind of see that play of that and that important role that it takes This this story of them are the monsanto papers, which is really about the the papers from the trial report Is that kind of uh, correct? It is also the story of of lee johnson and uh Not only the horrible day were um an event happened to him where he Yeah Poison yeah poison been poisoned himself and and led to him having cancer and and then luckily found a Wonderful man who who had the the opportunity to listen and and say well represent you I'll take this and and then it just I mean In some respects it's amazing the great hands of cards or the great Things that fell into place that that would happen because it is a battle regardless of how well it was and how how how He got the right people on board and how people stood behind him and fought for that It was an enormous battle and you so eloquently in this book really Get that out behind the scenes of writing that and bringing this out and in that story You are are you there right hand in hand this whole time going on this journey? How did that come to you to to to put into this whole process? Yeah, I mean I was very much so After I wrote whitewash or after whitewash came out You know the litigation was really just coming together lawsuits had been filed Because of the world health organization I arc you know declaring glyphosate is a probably human carcinogen And then my book came out and laid out all the deceptive tactics of monsanto and you know the collusion with the epa and that sort of thing Documents that I obtained through freedom of information act requests And just reporting for several years so a lot of the lawyers in the cases wanted to you know to Learn from me a little bit at the beginning, you know, they didn't so they were looking to whitewash and they wanted to talk to me and I so I just you know, I sort of followed along with the litigation and got to know the lawyers the lead attorneys involved in the nationwide mass tort litigation and they were Generous enough with their time to really you know kind of Let me in behind the scenes a little bit. Let me sort of See how you know the how this litigation comes together how the cake is made or Sausage is made. Maybe that's what you describe Um So, you know, and I think to me like that's one of the most interesting parts of the book is not not just necessarily Just, you know, monsanto's secrets revealed and Lee's story But also how this machine this litigation machine actually works because you know, there's a lot of good bad muddly in there You know, there's there's a lot of maneuvering and strategy and Um, you know on both sides and and that to me was really compelling stuff to watch it unfold And that's why I wanted to put it in a book Because I think even if you take monsanto out of this and you take lee out of this this is still a very representative story of of the situation in america and many other countries where Our regulators are not holding companies accountable Our regulators have really dropped the ball on that and if people are injured through a chemical or a medical device or You know opioid overuse or you know some such product that's really being pushed by a very powerful company Almost the only avenue for justice is through this litigation system and it probably shouldn't be that way It's messy. It's very imperfect Lawyers make a lot of money People who are injured usually don't make a lot of money through this process And and end up, you know confused and and concerned and disappointed in a lot of cases But it's really the only way we see to hold companies accountable and to try to affect change and I think that's this System that needs to be reformed as well. I think we need More, you know teeth in our regulatory system So you wouldn't have to rely on lawyers like the lawyers in the lee johnson case And you also see in this book the thing that I also found fascinating Is You know some of them sit on the sidelines. There's some plaintiffs attorneys out there that bring in cases and sit on the sidelines and wait for a settlement But there are others who literally put their lives on the line and their financial Stability on the line and they have to put up millions of dollars of their own money and take out loans And all sorts of things to try to bring these cases all the way to trial and if they lose, you know, they get nothing They're wiped out So, you know, there's there's a lot of drama. I guess in all of that and then I try to pack all of that into this book Yeah, you definitely did a wonderful job to pack it in there I would only say it's a lot of blood sweat and tears on on on one side definitely Going into saying I'm going to take this case. We're going to take the battle We're going to do it and There was a point in time and I don't want to be a spoiler of anything but where one of the monsanto Person retires and it's kind of a Appointed time where a lot there's a lot of discovery and and things are discovered in there through that retirement some things that he said publicly and But there's just along the way there are so many things why I guess what I'm getting to is the real the real question of There's so much money. That's not even our core business. Our core business is chemicals and agriculture and seeds and and and and but they're spending Almost as much if not more On the payouts of the court losses, but also on the attorneys to protect and defend and to Go after you to go after others who who say hey, there's something wrong with this system. We've got to fix this Let's get some better regulation. They're Working in conjunction with the EPA. I mean How do we flip the paradigm or what what is you know You said you mentioned that you want to see a change with better regulation or better How do we do that when the Business as usual model or the model that they've been working on us. We've got to have a good legal We've got to have a good amount of money for risk or mitigation basically For climate to pay our fees for environmental Problems that we have or for lawyers. How do we get to a better system? Yeah, well, you know, I think the people number one have to become informed, right people have to know What's going on out there and and How corporations are increasingly wielding their influence the the story that Came out recently in the Guardian that I did Was about Mexico The president of Mexico and others in the administration have declared that they will ban life estate and GMO imports They don't want it in their country. They have said this will be better for the environment for our people We want a more sustainable form of agriculture in our country And the story is based on internal emails and other communications That were obtained from the u.s trade representative and epa and other u.s federal agencies Showing that they are working very closely with bear and with certain other big chemical companies to try to pressure Mexico into not banning these things and to intimidate Mexico into changing its mind and You know, I had done a story a year or so ago about they did the same thing with Thailand Thailand tried to ban life estate and you know, these big companies in the united states government Got together and put the squeeze on Thailand and Thailand dropped its plans for a ban. So um, you know countries are People around the world are becoming more engaged or becoming informed and they're trying to do things and implement policies that are more Beneficial and more healthy for their populace But you know, it's a big fight It is a huge fight. I mean you have to wrap your mind around that. It's almost unfathomable that We're talking country-level manipulation from a corporation that you know The big impacts of a country now saying we're not going to use these chemicals and and The the the force the manipulation that's used there to try to do that. Uh, I currently Um, yeah, I just did an article myself as well on a little documentary with Croatia and how Uh, they have huge issues with using chemicals and pesticides and fertilizers and even trying to make that organic Move uh transfer and and beginning a lot of pushback also from the farmers and they're like Show me something that works. Show me something that an alternative or something that works. This is what works and this is how we'll do it and and Yeah, yeah, and I got you know, I got an email Yesterday, I think it was from a journalist in colombia. Um, you know, who said this is the u.s. Government is pressuring and this has been going on for years and we've written about this But you know the u.s. Government really wants colombia to be using glyphosate sprayed airily airily aerial spray to eradicate Cocoa plants, you know to try to stem the drug trade and this has been going on, you know, because This the spraying from the sky of the server side has been shown to Be harmful to people who live, you know in the area and who've been exposed in this way through No, you know direct fault of their own. No, you know voluntary exposure, certainly Um, so colombia, you know tried to pull back on that in the u.s. That's been pressuring them and been on them as well not to do that to keep spraying glyphosate from the sky over these wine swaths land there Despite the injury that's been shown to to people who live in the area. So You know, it's as I said, it's a it's a very big fight. I don't know how you really get about it I mean as a journalist, you know, my role is to Bring information to light and then let other people carry the ball And hopefully affect change at some point I I get you know, I hate when when we have this feeling of hopelessness. So is there like um Any hope that you can give like if somewhere were to approach you with you know Say this is going on at a country level or somewhere you say You know that you know, I'm a journalist. I got to report the facts and the data and I want to try to You know Stay out of that fight, but here are some people actively working on the good side of it or working on, you know, the Direct reporting or the uh litigation on these Please go and seek them out how because I think it's kind of hard and in some respects to find those right Litigators whether you're doing environmental or climate litigation whether you're doing food litigates trying to mess with the food and drug administration or or whether whether it's the EPA How do you find the right people who are who can kind of help you in that that is there Compendium or lexicon or somewhere where you can say okay Here here we have some people on the same wavelength that we need to look a little bit deeper, you know Yeah, I mean I I guess I know so many of those people I'm not quite sure if you didn't know if you can just start looking on google probably so I mean there are so many organizations You know here in the u.s. There's um center for food safety is is a really impressive organization that Is run by lawyers and they You know hold try their best to hold our regulators accountable and if they see them violating the law which they have many times They file a lawsuit And say you're violating the law. I mean this recently happened with Dicamba which is an herbicide that on santo bear and other companies have been pushing for farmers to use because glyphosate is not as effective anymore and You know it was determined after a lawsuit that the EPA our environmental protection agency here in the u.s Did in fact, you know skip over several provisions several requirements of the law when they granted approval To this use of dicamba by these very big companies basf and corteva and lansanto bear so You know that's been an interesting battle too, but you know there's center for biological diversity and green keys and I don't know it seems like I would say even rodale institute Rodale is doing great work To to show, you know the benefits of regenerative agriculture and how you can You can achieve that and there are farmers I've written about here in the United States Hundreds of them who have formed their own idea network. They call themselves to Do experiments in their fields? you know what works and what doesn't work in terms of Corporations and cover crops and row spacing and different, you know use of different seeds and You know that sort of thing to try to really move away from pesticide dependence So, you know there's applause for lots of different groups and individuals. I think Well, both of the foundations I work with in Croatia. I'll definitely let them know they need to read both of your books and Get a little page because they're really trying to get their their ministries and their government to Change some of the farm bills change some of the ways they use chemicals and pesticides That's kind of their their big mission and switch more to an organic. So that's always nice to know And other dining stories of you know, what what have what's Double to the surface and there's great. So and I guess I should you know US right to know the group that I you know do research and employers for you know, we put a lot of All we really do is file freedom of information or state state open records requests And then try to share those documents with the public or other journalists or Lawmakers, you know to try to bring information to light There's a great group that I'm getting more familiar with the Heartland Health Research Alliance. They're actually doing research looking at reproductive effects of herbicide Exposure since we have all of this herbicide use. I've been talking about this pesticide dependence, glyphosate and dicambin 240 Because there's early evidence that exposure, you know, can really Relate to reproductive problems and adverse birth outcomes So, you know, women and their babies, you know, what one more important Concern is there so there are groups like that that are really I think doing research and trying to Understand the risks that we face and what are the solutions? You know, so if you're interested there, there are people out there. There are ways to educate yourself What would you say your your biggest hope is with the Monsanto paper papers as a takeaway for Your future readers when the book comes out What your real desire and hope is that they get out of out of the read Oh my goodness, that's a good question. Well, I hope that they Are moved by it. I mean, I guess as I was You know, my editor says And she read the the epilogue, you know every time she read it. She cried Um, and when I wrote it, I cried. I don't know. I hope they're moved because again, it's it's a really big issue and maybe There's a lot of technical stuff and science stuff and legal stuff and but at the very heart of it, you know, it's a story about one person and Lots of people whose lives are just being turned upside down and destroyed by cancer and cancer That you know has been shown to be caused By this product by the this company's product that they've been pushing for 40 years. So You know, it's a morning Tale it's a story of a cautionary tale. I guess and You know, and it's it's just it's not just one company. It's not just one product You know, this is going on over and over and over and over again Yeah, it really is. I mean, that's what I like as well. I mean To just kind of show this is not a new story. I mean there's Sacker and DDT Agent Orange, but there's also other companies Johnson's and Johnson's baby powder was a was a big issue you know and so many others where The product they're producing given given to pretty much anyone to Use and to eat and consume or to put on food that we eat It's a it's a big deal. So I'm glad that you wrote it and I I love it and I'm going to recommend it to everybody and I definitely get Hopefully one day when I get the physical copy I can get a signed copy from you live. I'll come over to Missouri and Yeah, Kansas and We'll we'll get it signed. I I have some real Questions that are also tied to tied to this as well Do you consider yourself to be a global citizen? And how would you feel about a world without nations borders and divisions of humanity? One from another My goodness. I've never thought of that I don't know. I've never thought of that. I guess I And just off the call, I mean I I appreciate so much the Distinctions that are found in different countries, you know, and I haven't traveled maybe as extensively as you have I've been to several different, you know, many countries throughout europe and to australia and other places And I just I love the richness of the different cultures and the different languages and the different foods and the different ways of looking at life and You know, I always find that I've learned from that. I feel enriched. So I guess I really appreciate distinctions I wouldn't want to to live in a world where those were all blurred By any means I'll caveat why I I mentioned that so I definitely do not want a world where cultures go away. Um, I I personally would want one where Divisions of humanity one from each other would go away where we're locked down. We're kind of we're divided amongst ourselves I I'd like to see more World where we're all global citizens on this space of earth But the reason I ask you is during this time where we've been in lockdown where we've been in this crazy time there The things that have been the global global citizens as the pandemic is air water Food has been a global citizen traveling all over the world, you know to keep keep people fed and and Species species don't see borders But us as humans we've kind of been locked up in our human zoos and and kept away from each other This whole pandemic, you know, they say started in Wuhan and and Because of bats wet markets zoonosis, whatever it was But it spread all over the world. It was basically a global citizen So I think that the way we're interacting With our earth with our biome with each other This division and you know blaming it on china blaming it on the us, you know things like this Is it's not a system that's working for us. And so that was more for the question of You know, are you a global citizen? How would you feel about a world? you know without divisions borders of humanity one from another not necessarily cultures because richness of food richness of those languages and those cultures and Even belief systems is okay But but I have a lot of family in the us I'm in Hamburg Germany right now a family in Europe and Asia and and so it's interesting, you know to To know that We're all on the same spaceship earth Yeah, no, that's I mean, that's a beautiful point and you're right and I do think You know what we've just seen in in America. I know the little place where I live You know, you can be as small or as large as you want and still understand that when you separate people You know and you and you create Division and you create fear of each other You know, it is a recipe for you know, real problems and it's and it's a perfect situation incubation for a takeover, you know for a power Taking by large government bodies or large corporations or so when we do become fearful of each other or divided whether it be by, you know boundaries or lockdowns or You know restrictions on travel or anything else. I mean, yeah, it's it definitely Can lead to a demise I think in in society and you know, that's what we're seeing right now So, yeah, I don't know if you erase borders. What happens? I don't know But I definitely would agree with you. We would need we need to erase the separation and the division and the fear of one another I I totally agree Some and I'm kind of leaving you questions because I have a couple more of the next one's the going to be the hardest but another along that same lines of thought so This is an interesting graded toonbury toonberg. I guess how they say it in english, but to swedish toonbury She was in front of she sailed across got to the us and wet was in a hearing with a bunch of other Who were finding a complaint to sue the government for environmental damages things like that And she was kind of being spoken to by some representatives democrats and republicans and this one Republican before it came to his chance to say anything. He was you know, he was on his iphone you can tell was the iphone he Checked being looking at something whilst Democrat was asking the question And then it came time for him to ask the question and he asked, you know, graded Toonbury, you know, how she feels about all the Cold power plants coming up in china and all the plushians and emissions and we need to worry about china and not worry about the us The us is doing just fine. And so we tend to take this Global citizen approach and kind of divide us as it's their problem They need to get their environment and in line or their chemical use in line. And it's not our problem. We're doing just fine and it's kind of It kind of blurs the borders of global citizen, but also trade because if you look at of A trade map of our world how trading goods food and chemicals and things flow throughout the world They are a global citizen. They are already globally moving around being used there in the iphone that that Republican had in his hand was made in china and so he's complaining bitching and moaning about the waste and the pollution the environmental impact that Was occurred in china, but it's okay for him to use it and then blame that they don't want to take our trash anymore But it's not just us. China is all over the world is going like that bolt scenario It's you know, whoever is we don't understand that, you know Without this world and supplying each other with these things and that there's this Interaction That there isn't the allotment to the point fingers and divide ourselves from it. So it's their fault or they're doing Bad, you know brexit was another great one The big the big vote on brexit was really to do with Immigrant workers and and and a racial issue why they voted on that and then during the lockdown None of those immigrant workers were there to harvest the food and so we had huge food waste and huge food problems in the united kingdom Based upon a vote, which you know was was crazy and we have that going on So that's kind of way of frame that to see How because the next burning question is so is so crazy It's the burning question w tf and it's not Not the swear word Although we probably were doing that during this last 12 months It's what's the future and so I want to know is what's the future? What does the world that work for everyone look like for you? How can we Um, stop making the same mistakes we are Wisdoms in your book and and to move forward to to better models. So I want to know from you. What's the future? Well, now that you've laid out all that darkness, you know It's it's hard to Speak I guess optimistically. Um I you know, I Setting aside the pandemic because I think that has turned everything upside down And when I say the pandemic, you know, I'm not only talking about this march of this virus But of the government reaction to it and I am very much a believer that it's been a government overreach Um, I think civil liberties have been stripped Um of people without due process and without Great thoughts. I guess on the part of our government and a lot of it is is there's little logic to it It seems, you know, I here in Kansas, you know, my children have not been able to go to school But if I want to go buy a gun, you know, I can certainly do that or a bottle of tequila or You know, I can I can go to a bar in Kansas. I don't I go to restaurants But but my kids can't go to school. I don't understand the logic of that. I don't think it's logical I almost an oxymoron my son recently Was told by his university He and several hundred other students are banned from campus are banned from the university that we paid thousands of dollars for Because someone said that they saw them at some time not wearing masks But there's no definitive allegation of it and there's no due process for them to um To defend themselves from this charge if they show up on campus, they'll be arrested The university has told them Okay, what what world are we living in here? You know, we're threatening to arrest college kids if they if they try to go to class Um, so I guess I'm going down a rabbit hole here. I I think if we continue Down the path we're on where we just say Governments can tell us who can be in business and who can't and who can associate with a friend or who can't or who can See their family member who can't, you know, I I shouldn't have been Seeing my elderly father in the last months of his life, you know, according to You know my government leaders, um, but I'm so glad that I did You know, I'm so glad I didn't listen to them and then I brought him into my home and then I spent the last You know days with him so Right now, I guess I feel like if we continue down this path, will we all just say sure Government tell us how to live and tell us how to be divided and fearful of one another and You know, these powers with players will dictate our future. Oh, it's not it's not a very Uh good WT But if people are informed and engaged and take personal responsibility and and And act upon, you know, they're The the best nature, you know that we have We can't just be acting selfishly. We have to be looking out for ourselves our children You know their future our neighbors We have to do our best to protect ourselves obviously from From ill health, but that takes many forms. It's not just the virus There are many many many aspects Of human health and mental health and economic health Uh so that people are not homeless and in the streets and starling and cold I love that, you know, I mean There needs to be a balance and everything I guess I've said this all along I don't ever see things really as black and white I see I see nuance and I see balance and I see gray and we have to embrace that and understand that and Do our best to navigate that but navigate it in a way that Is is best for all of us, you know and protects us and nurtures our children and nurtures our environment So we can have a healthy happy happy and healthy future and right now That's not where we are. You know, that sounds like exactly what I said. It sounds like A world that worked for everyone. There's no one size fits all it's kind of individualized from where you're at What your situation is age gender Location job what whatever it is that it's that it's kind of More personalized because that it maybe works well for some but not for everyone and I really like how you put there. That's that was great. So That that was the hardest question and I and I I know that was uh, I ask every one of my guests that but, um I appreciate your Journalistic very honest answer to that The last three questions are really really easy. You're going to do great for my guests and my listeners most in the first and foremost um, if they are If there was one message that you could depart to them as a sustainable takeaway that had the power to change your life What would it be your message? Food and exercise, right? I mean, I don't know that seems so simple and and maybe Not the high level answer you're looking for I think Take care of your health, right? Take care of your family's health care about the food that you eat care about the food that you put in your body Um and exercise, you know our health our health is is so core to everything We can't be good citizens in the world. We can't take care of our kids We can't if we're not in good health. So, you know what this takes us back to where we started this conversation Food is foundational Care about it research it know where your meat and eggs and vegetables and things are coming from organic, you know food That uses less pesticide It's better for the environment better for biodiversity Better for our health. I mean that's been shown over and over and over again. It's not perfect It's not a perfect system doesn't mean you're perfectly clean doesn't mean there aren't any pesticide residues and you know that ahead of organic kale or spinach or whatever it is you're getting But but it does mean it's better You know just do your research and care about yourself and care about your health and your family What should young journalists in your field be thinking about if they're looking for ways to make real impact? I guess I would say Data documents data and documents doesn't matter what somebody tells you, you know Getting a good quote that you know, you need a good quote for a story But stories need when you're writing about an important issue You need to get to the heart of the matter. You need to see data. You need to see documents You need to talk to people who are impacted You need to really follow up and do your research and and not just you know Be writing up press releases that come out and and uh swallowing them whole as though they're true You know, our job as journalists is is to to ask questions to hold people to account to Try to get to the truth as best we can in as many different ways as we can And we're going to make mistakes and you're not always going to get there and sometimes you do have to write up the press release But the larger body of your work should be You know independent of all of these voices telling you what to write It should be finding the truth and then bringing that truth to light What have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start golly, um A lot of people say I couldn't have learned it because I like the journey. I needed the journey That's kind of how I feel. I mean I I love being a journalist. I've I think it's the Best job in the world. I think I'm the luckiest person to be able to have spent, you know, my adult life doing this work um, I basically get paid to learn about really interesting and important issues and people and then share that with other people and uh, You know, so I don't know. I guess maybe the lesson is Don't sweat the small stuff, you know things that I've spent so much time and energy being anxious or upset about or worried or concerned about You just just keep on putting one foot in front of the other and just keep on going and The only way out is through I think is is a saying I you know live by so just keep going That's absolutely wonderful. I would like to ask you one last thing and that's really um On the Monsanto papers deadly secrets corporate corruption and one man searched for justice really My my question is free. Is there anything that we haven't touched or talked about today that my listeners absolutely should know and Again, give us the exact date of the release. Um, I'm my my listeners are I'm always fortunate I get a little bit of pre look at your book and so we can have a discussion on it But it's uh, it is a great read and it also for those who are farmers thinking about food uh, it really sheds new light on how kind of The wrong models have worked in the past, but it's also gives a good insight on on on Hope and you know For me, it's it was a big hope. You know, I mean that was a big Big Some big payouts have been made lately. Let's put it that way. Yeah. Well, I don't know. So the book comes out march seconds um And I guess I would just say, you know, since you're giving me the opportunity maybe a shout out. So lee johnson and and his story so He is he's just an amazing person and I didn't It took me a while to sort of dig through these layers to get to that He's a very standoffish sort of quiet and very private person But his battle with cancer has been really remarkable to watch and from the doctors who told him You know in 2017, I think it was, you know, you have basically 18 months to live and get your affairs in order And the suffering that he's gone through You know, some of the wounds on his body Uh, the cancer manifested on his skin and his body and he had tumors and things all over his body and in You know, I remember being with him one time and he was showing me his foot And he hadn't he didn't never want to show me his foot, but he finally did and the open wound And it it was open all the way. You could see the bone through, you know, and it was just horrendous and his flesh would just fall out of The man has suffered incredibly and yet he has said from day one, you know what I'm just not going to die The doctors have ultimately I'm going to die everybody thinks I'm going to die My body is just falling apart right and left and and it's excruciating every day but you know what I'm just not going to die And here he is it's 2021 and he is Just still out there, you know, he's still in pain. He's still struggling But he's also still there with his his boys and he's taken care of them and he's trying to be a good father to them and You know, it's that I guess level of sort of hope and optimism and internal soulful strength You know, it's it's just amazing to me and perhaps that's You know, the bigger message of hope That there's always hope Thank you so much. Carrie. It's been a pleasure. That's all I have for you today and I really appreciate your time Thank you. I appreciate your time too. Thank you so much Thank you