 Good morning everyone and welcome to this meetup. Today we have Martin Winter with us. He is an experienced agile coach and he has a nice story to tell, so I will just hand over to you, Martin. Thank you, I just need to unmute. So thank you for having me here this morning. So yeah, we had a talk about which kind of topic could be relevant here and I suggested sharing a little bit of experience from transformations, coaching activities I've had been doing with different kinds of customers and it seems like there are some common patterns in what's happening and what you could say activities that we need to put in place and also what kind of you could say problems and blockers that we find along the way and maybe some tricks to work with that. The short presentation of me, 45 years old, I live in Denmark. I'm working and I've been doing that for quite a long time as an agile professional and also in the flavor of new ways of working. So it's not only within the agile umbrella but also new ways of working but maybe more is born out of the same mindset. I've been co-founding a few companies all within the area of agile consulting. My main focus has been on transformations as a transformation coach, manager, organizational design and teaching. I've done a lot of teaching and also coaching. Before I started on these more coaching and consulting activities, I also had quite a long time as a person within teams and within the production of new products working agile. So I've tried both and have both and have both good and bad experiences, I guess. The topics that we will go through this morning. So I say the usual path for an organization going more agile. I say usual path because it seems like no matter who I talk to and also all my own experiences, it seems like we have more or less the same pattern in what is going on. I will try to share with you what I see is a natural way and also you could say no. I have of course, I hope every time I start on an optimal path for introduction and enabling new capabilities within an organization, but I also learned so much now that it seems like it's good to be prepared for not everything goes as it could be in an optimal plan. Then I also touch upon the future of agile, seen from where I am, and you're really welcome to fill in with your own inputs here. And of course, questions both in the end and also during the presentation. It will be here in, yeah, you can say we have like 50 minutes more here. And I'll try to make sure that we cover all three topics. So the normal beginning of an agile journey where I'm involved would be that an organization has already a few teams playing around which from camp and etc. Maybe several teams, but it's like from bottom up flavor here and you could say maybe we have department managers that have tried it before and they established their own kind of agile organization within the overall organization. But we have a lot of experience already and some energy within the teams, mainly in development areas, but also maintenance operations and also outside IT for example. So it could be in several departments. I've seen this also happening within hardware development. So it doesn't need to be software that kicks off an agile journey. So a lot of teams playing around and it seems like there will be some kind of kickstart of an transformation. One, maybe several brave persons in the management of the company can be a department manager, it can be a VP, it can also be from the CXO layer, will share a dream of a more aligned and agile operating model. So maybe we have experience from a previous job, previous organization, maybe we have read a book, maybe we have been on a conference or maybe we've just looked at all these teams playing around that it looks like the opportunity for getting even more out of these teams would be something that would be worth chasing. So normally it's one person that are really brave and say okay now let's do this and it needs to be within the company. It's super difficult to come from outside and kickstart this stream. We have tried it several times but it seems like it's much more powerful when it starts within the organization. Then what normally happens at least when I'm involved we are involved as specialist consultants, coaches, whatever and it's normal from a personal network we are hired in the beginning. It's pretty rare that it's a company where we don't have any relations, other first hand or second hand in this specific organization. So normally a person will contact me or one of my colleagues and say we need some help here, could you please help us and a lot of things would happen after this. To show you and also share with you what kind of activities that I see is going on here I can share with you some of the things that we hear when we answer this organization where Dream has started on becoming more aligned in the ways of working at time. So in the beginning we hear something in the flavor of we must have one also. So we have seen other companies establishing maybe a scaled implementation of at time maybe we have seen it with the standard framework maybe they have made their own maybe they have been inspired by Spotify whatever but we look at some other organizations maybe a competitor or something that we can look at and say okay we need to have something here also that has the same flavor. Maybe not the best way to start maybe they should realize why we are doing this and have an overall strategy for this but mostly it seems like we are inspired from something outside and kicked off by some energy that has been involved within the organization. Then yeah who can help us with this and then we are contacted here maybe also just in the beginning contacted as who in your network could maybe help us here in getting more out of the already started agile initiatives. And often we also get the feeling that and maybe also the order that while you're doing this and helping us becoming more agile maybe implementing some kind of scale structure make sure you don't make too much noise in in in this activity. So the accept of this bearing quite a big change most of you will know if you have been part of this or if you are part of this or maybe have looked at a company going from a little bit of agility to a lot of agility and also maybe what you would call business agility and organizational structure based on agile principles. It's a huge change no matter what we try to explain as much as possible in the beginning and also bring in cases and people that have tried this before but it seems like still we are too busy doing all other kind of things. So in the beginning we don't really accept that this is something that we need to make sure that we have room and capacity to do. So we are allowed to do stuff but not making too much noise during the work and that is also possible. We can handle that within transformation and I'll show you how we do this in in my own company's transformation model. Martin before we continue we have a question here. Yes please. When you get approach is it still focused on development or do you see an increase in organizations wanting to become agile all through? So maybe 7 out of 10 is still within development born in development some kind of production development. It does need to be IT it could be other kind of products have been in hearing aids for example but it's usually in R&D or development and very often of course in IT we see this first movement and also the brave guy or girl in the company is often also placed closely to something regarding development. That's normally what I see. I have also been contacted by people in other parts of the organization it could be HR it could be legal it could be procurement but that's not that often. It could also be the top CXO layer that is approaching us that is becoming more usual more seen but I still feel that most of the approaches is coming within some kind of development area. Okay more questions so also just interrupt me when we have new questions. So yeah after this first period and we have been involved it could be also internal coaching it does need to be like from external consultants but somebody taking on the role as ambassador for this kind of transformation and we quite soon get the feeling and also the sponge yeah they need to teams are super happy about this new ways of working. It seems like everybody is loving this way of working and there's several reasons for that. First of all the first brave teams are often they're both brave and also pretty skilled already when they are ready to take on new ways of working and at the same time we give them a lot of attention and it's quite a higher skilled and experienced coaches so they get a lot of attention and help in the beginning so no wonder that it feels like a success already here but what is something that is seen in the organization and something that people is talking about okay look at those new teams they are really working super well and quite soon and often also too soon somebody quite high in the organization gets the idea that now we want to expand to the rest of the organization. Of course this signal is really important for the rest of the journey and we need to react on that but it's mainly not based on a solid understanding of what is going on more based on a really good response from the individual teams and often also the customer business side is seeing a totally new way of delivering results and also being involved in this kind of activities. So now we are closer to what we could call a real transformation now we have gotten the attention and also shown that this could work not the optimal way I will show you how I believe it should be done if we could actually start the right way but this is often how it's done. When we are as soon as possible when we get this reaction that we see say a pull in the organization for a more solid implementation of agile we form this guiding coalition it could be a transformation team it could be different kind of names for this but overall we just need to try to get a more cross organizational involvement and ownership for and commitment for these activities different kind of functions should be involved in the coalition usually I really focused on getting people from almost all the functions in the organization participating here HR are super important top management are super important operational development project management PMO a lot of different functions should be and disciplines should be involved in this guiding coalition otherwise we'll get too many problems down the path because we haven't really done our homework good enough too many things would be based on guesses and assumptions instead of having real insights also afterwards the implementation comes much easier when we have this coalition in my mind this should be more less internally staffed not too many consultants sitting in this guiding coalition so from outside we facilitate we bring in cases expert knowledge but the ownership of the transformation should be inside the company if we really like it then the CEO is also beginning to show interest in what we're doing it's pretty rare that he or she is is putting himself with skin in the game at this point of time it seems to be a little too early but it's really important that that we get this position involved from the beginning it's it's it's we don't have this is the best thing that can happen for transformation if I look back in my path if if we get the CEO to to love this this project then it seems like all kind of magic can happen without that it's a little bit more strong and do we have more questions yeah we have one I don't know jack if you want to read it in the site or should I read what you oh yeah yeah I'd love to thank you thank you so the question often what I've experienced is that as you said in one of the earlier slides that change is often kind of initiated from the senior levels who want to create a you know a more consistent operating model often that that need is driven from the need to have consistent reporting across the teams and what that then means is that there's resistance from the from the developers of a fund you know from from the people doing the work you know they feel like a change is being imposed on them even though it may be beneficial to them what what's your experience there Martin? yeah I've definitely seen the the same so so so if we you have too much push from from a management layer on doing this without really embracing the culture already and all the good things that the teams or the employees are already doing and the hard work they're doing then then I see the same that you can actually get some pushback from the teams it's much better if it's top down bottom up approach at the same time so we need to have these ambassadors already in place in the teams and really respect the current situation so this is why and normally this happens this reaction happens if you don't look at this as a as a real change management exercise but just push them on on on top of the the teams so I've seen the same and it's super important that we get both sides of the story involved and this guiding coalition that I are speaking about here should definitely also involve members from the teams so we have their I would say daily work and their problems impediments right at the table from the beginning thank you we have a question from Emily yes please yes I was just thinking about how how large are the organizations and organizations that you usually work with if we talk about having the CEO involved and then I didn't know exactly how to phrase it but can or should you do an agile transformation in all types of organizations definitely not shoot because I'll get back to that so so so I'm pretty sure that that a lot of good things happens when you do an agile transformation that's at least my experience but should you do it already always no I'm not sure about that you really think you really need to think about the the overall purpose and also the impact on the organization and the ecosystem that you're part of before you do this playing around with agile implementations within teams projects departments that is all good as soon as we talk about a transformation it's transforming of the overall company and it's definitely not something that I would recommend to do every time because it's a really big effort you need to be prepared you also need to understand why we're doing this or the worst thing that I've seen happening is that we do this and the top management or the board of directors doesn't really understand this and maybe a couple of years down the the road they maybe start to pull backwards because they get a little bit nervous about letting all of this control you would say drill down in the system and they pull backwards and what will happen is that your employees and your managers that are starting to feel the power of working in an agile structure they will actually be pretty disappointed and find another place to to work in I've seen this a couple of times so companies should be pretty careful before the embark on this journey as an overall transformation they really need to understand what it is and believe that this is the right way to go because the employees as you probably already have experienced most of you they really like this and also managers that understand these ways of working now see a lot of benefits and a much much better balance and sustainability in the in the way that we work regarding the size of the organizations that I've been working with they've come in in many sizes from 50 people to 3000 5000 people the big organizations of course it's a total it's another story I have when I come to my transformation model also a concept for that but it's just super difficult the best fastest most reliable most you could say smooth transformations me and my colleagues have been doing has been in companies in the size of you could say 100 to 500 people and the the lower the number the better and that's for a reason of course and that's nothing to do with agile you could say capabilities and how we work agile and organized it's more about change management if we are in an organization where we can actually oversee everything we can we can we can do something and we can see the reaction at the same time then then we are in a much better situation as soon as we get in the larger corporations where where the overview of what is actually going on is it's a little bit more brilliant of too many layers it's it's it's another case but if you get the CEO in place I've tried that in a company with the it was a couple years ago with 1000 people part of the company as soon as the CEO bought this idea everything that just wrote much quicker and and it worked super well more questions or should we continue yeah yeah we have one from yeah please yes hi again um it's a little bit aligned with what Emily asked for or asked about um and I'm wondering when when you get approached what are the most common arguments or reasons why the organization wants to transform transform to agile and is it realistic and do you have to like kind of explain to them what agile he is yes definitely and it seems like it's it's it's a never ending task to explain what it is about it seems like it's a good thing because I actually earned money doing that but but but but but for us most of us being here it's it's pretty obvious what it is about and we can feel uh what's agile what's not agile and also live the the mindset and the values for an organization with a lot of history and and and and legacy it it seems like we need we need to remind about what it is and also the overall purpose about the purpose it seems like and also how we are approached it seems like different kind of you could say kick starters for for this has has been seen one of them are what I mentioned we want something similar to what our neighbors are doing so we have seen another company do this maybe in real life or maybe we've just heard about it and it seems like they're making good results so that that is one really common approach which is of course not super smart because they don't know why it works and and and and if it would work in their own organization but it just feel like this is something they want and that's common for a lot of trends and agile is still a trend and definitely also scale agile this is a trend so so we want to be part of that trend and another thing is that we have managers that have tried it before in another company that is also quite common so they have done it before and they want to to do the same thing in this company it could be on a BP vice president level senior vice president level also CFO often it's it's a little bit below that we get this and also it could be that the really brave team members are approaching us and say you should talk to my manager we need to do something more than what we're doing right now and then we get the chance so so that's how how it could be it's but but but the reason is often not based on on a clear idea of how this fits to the to the company's strategy and overall vision maybe we have a feeling it will help us but but really when you ask the question so what would be the single most important uh success criteria for this transformation they will give you several different answers depending on who you are asking that's maybe not the best idea to to start like this so we have a lot of work doing in in aligning the expectations and also what the purpose could could be okay yes let's try to continue a little better than we can take some some more more questions um so when we have started now and and it seems like we want to scale it a little bit i'm not talking about scale data unnecessarily it can be different flavors of that normally it is different frameworks but scaling mean that we both do it on on on on the level with more teams but also in more vertical in the organizations we start to get more layers how we do projects programs portfolio management and so on we begin to see that that that we need to do more than just having really strong teams with a good framework so then we we talk about fixed teams everybody would like to have fixed teams it seems like the the best results the best reactions we get from teams in in the early stages are from the teams that that now feel that belong to a team they are fully allocated into to to a team with a specific purpose and they have only one backlog to work with and normally that would not be the case they have maybe been used to working in several projects at the same time this is really of course if we understand a little bit about lean this is of course a major improvement from what we have done before but when we try to scale this we soon run out of competences because we cannot just copy paste our employees so so we are lacking some of the specialist areas and we start to to wonder how should we do this as fixed teams and it is flexible enough so so we need to challenge that a little bit and and and and make the work around for that that could be shared services components seems to be different ways of doing this and maybe also allow a little bit in in having people moving from from one team to another team more fluent in in how we do it but we need to be careful here otherwise it's definitely not in a maturity stage where we can have more fluent teams so so we need to have something fixed here but usually we managed to do it not for everybody but but a lot of teams starting to getting a more fixed structure and here it's important to remind the organization that this will probably change within a year so because we have probably caught the organization a little bit you could say away from the optimal organization structure we don't know that yet but we will learn during the next phases then we are we are here in this because we see that some of our senior managers they're starting to be become a little bit nervous about their future role teams are apparently working pretty well without supervision all the time so what would be the future role and of course there's a lot of roles and and a lot of meat for these kind of of really skilled people we just need to be aware of that in the beginning I try to build this in to the to the transformation in the beginning to make sure we have answers for all of these questions but not everybody will be a manager like they were before that's definitely something that will change they will have different kind of of management positions and also we feel that that they are a little bit nervous about silos in the in the organization be careful not to break the current silos because these are the you could say the kings and queens within the organization they've built a really powerful business unit or whatever so so we start to get a little bit of resistance here and as you can imagine if we have the CxO CEO involved here it's much easier to break down those silos if we don't have then it's it's pretty difficult but we don't need to do that in the beginning because we need to get some learning into the organization and just look at them getting some knowledge here we will see that even though we have a lot of dependencies across silos it seems like the communication the collaboration between teams and department has just increased strongly and we see also the communication to the to the clients customers business people and the rest of the organization has just increased really nice to see and and this just support our our our journey uh so let's look at our project governance or whatever governance structures policies operating model in in in total and and see how we can do this more now we have seen how this works on a more scaled base we also know a lot of impediments that are built into the organization and we can see that we need to to to do things another way it could be that some of the organization governance policies has been changed already but usually it comes in a little bit late in the in the in the in the phase for me it's okay as soon as we know where we have some some some problems we can and everybody are aware of that in our guiding correlation we can start finding solutions for for that so what do we hear when the magic is about to happen when i talk about magic then it's about where we as as experts can can get a little bit more in the background we see things happening by himself and it's like it's an unstoppable movement what has happened here and this is also where we need to be careful if we if the the manager's CFO layer is starting to to pull backwards this is the bad timing for for them because it's too late actually to to change this this movement it could be that we get this feeling just when when we get to before we get to this stage that it doesn't really feel right i would get a lot of if you have tried to work just with teams you see also as soon as we implement some some some structures around how we work together ways of working and some transparency and feedback loops we see maybe more problems that we saw before it's not new problems it's not not new impediments it's just something that we haven't been aware of before so now we need to react on those those problems we need to be prepared for this we need to have the support in our guiding correlation so we can actually react on those things but it will feel a little bit difficult in when we start the scaling part of this because a lot of dependencies a lot of issues impediments are showing up in in between the teams and definitely regarding the dependencies across the organization so we try to to to together with the organization experiment with with how to we could how we could organize a little bit different so we get rid of those dependencies it could be around products so we have more product or services that we are organizing around so the teams are more are born into a specific part of of our service or products in in the company what we also call value streams in in value stream organization this is quite difficult to do again here we run out of people and talent and it's also sometimes a bigger task than you maybe should expect to to actually learn about what is the most important product where are we actually providing value in our company and where should we probably down prioritize our activities and a lot of things could happen here but definitely also the portfolio management and the funding structures are starting to to be changed here when we don't talk about projects that much more because we have actually more funding of our values teams and our products so we have another ways of funding our initiatives we also quite clearly should start discussing how we could make the the funding and the and the overall portfolio management governance structures more aligned with the with this way of working and I guess we can have some before I talk about the transformation model some questions here it looks like there's a few yeah we have one from Tommy yes hi there I might be a big topic here and thanks for making us listening to your reflections basically often it comes almost like a wet blanket over for an agile transformation when management clearly state that they still need to have some kind of visualized progress measurement done what are your reflections regarding that I mean it's often connected to a deadline or less so so we do so progress is that regarding like the results of the transformation or like product project development exactly thanks for clarifying it's for the product so even with or without an agile transformation we want to know the progress of the product development yeah so yes it can be quite a challenge first of all we're used to having all of these status reporting in place for for projects for example development projects in the organization some of us know that it's it's more or less just a game we play because then the numbers and the progress figures to see in these status reports are based on assumptions and guesses and not really based on reality so so so we try to get other a kind of measurements in place where we measure more about the delivered value actually measure working products delivered increments that are potential uh releasable or maybe already released my my approach is normally to get those two measurements running at the same time just removing the old ways of of you can say measuring progress and replace with something you is maybe a little bit too big a change because so many things are built around those in my word a little bit fake reporting systems but but it's still something that a lot of decisions are based on so have those in place at the same time as you start also implementing another way of of actually show progress in in our development when we get a more stable structure and we start getting actually deliverables in each iteration maybe also on on on a larger scale when we have scaled our setups so we have multiple teams working together we see those integrated developments and we have demos and reviews on those and invite the organization and the customer to show those they will start to learn about seeing progress as actually deliver delivered value and not that much progress on activities within a project plan but i'll do this in in parallel if it makes sense and it's a little bit uh overhead of work it's also a struggle but just removing the old ways of reporting is uh it's often not a good idea the reaction in the in the organization would be be too big thanks it's super difficult if i if you do it in one project if you have a pilot project where you are allowed to do a lot of experiments you can do that there just remove the old ways of reporting on until something breaks then just stop the old reporting and old reporting the new way where we actually show invite people for demos we involve in in the processation of activities we we we have transparent velocity and and and capacity figures and and for forecast for our team and start to show those in in the in the organization but we need to experiment before we we change i guess yeah great we have a lot of questions today uh Helena or Helene yeah ask you actually too if you could freeze it okay sitting here in the middle of everyone okay okay okay the question is how do you work with changing the mindset in the organization for example changing a culture of blaming each other or the way managers communicate to the employees that are behaving as traditional managers pointing out what should be done rather than practicing servants leadership oh yeah she's in the landscape and that it's yeah we've we've seen those of course sometimes happening a powerful tool here are the guiding correlation that we put in place in in the organization so we we spent a lot of time in teaching and educating these these people to be front runners in in in showing how this culture and how to behave and how to actually go go around and treat people in the right way so a lot of education a lot of training in the for managers actually we should do more training for the managers in the beginning compared to what we do in the teams the team implementations are pretty straightforward to do but actually train our managers this is one way of doing that giving them a language giving them a common set of tools in how to to work in a more modern way of management at the same time make sure that that if we see and I'm really normally I'm really close in the organization taking part of a lot of activities and meetings and actually are able to see those kinds of mis-patterns anti-patterns on on how to behave in the organization and maybe by coaching these people normally it's because they don't understand and don't have the skills to to to be more you could say human in the ways of of leading and and help them in doing this and if we have a few people that are not capable of changing and it's it's too big a risk having them in the organization we need to make sure they find another place where where this kind of management I'm all suited but be aware of that make sure that we teach and educate people in in the behavior give them some tools and also follow up it's not only classroom training it's definitely a lot of mentoring and and coaching yeah so so that would be how to do it and again if we can get in some inspiring people in the management layers that have done this before show how to do it if this would be really good yeah some ambassadors in this way of working and again if the co co understands how this should be done a lot of things will just be easier because then the culture will get down normally in the organization yeah I guess if we have a couple of questions and then I will also make sure we see the the transformation model so yeah we can just have a few more questions and then when we have 10 minutes left or so we we make sure we see the model also we have a question from dragon but then I think we need to move on dragon please no no martin martin already covered it with with the building okay okay okay okay let's move on a little bit and then let's see if we have more more questions no problem so it's it's it's I think it's it's it's really good that you ask these questions so I can elaborate on those instead of just talking to to slides here so transformation and a nutshell a few you could say handles that can be pulled or or or themes to be aware of get the right motivation in place make sure that we have a design of of how this could be I really like early in the in the in the in the phase to get some kind of drawn goal how how could we how could we imagine this look like in the in the future two three years from now let's just draw together with the top managers and this guiding correlation how could this look like we don't we don't use it for anything else but just having idea of of a shared vision for where to go you could call this a blueprint so we have an idea of how could this look like with our best cases a lot of based on assumptions we know that and hypothesis but but this is this is something that is super important to get us aligned management alignment make sure we only have few suggest materials kpi's objectives for for this this transformation if I can get it down to one specific objective why we're doing this it's absolutely the most powerful maximum three objectives to to to look for if we have too long a list I've worked with with the colleagues that have a list of two three hundred kpi's we could measure in an agile transformation I would not recommend that it's it's it's it's too much and it doesn't give us any focus which is a quite important value in working at job working with pilots pilots are early moobers clearing the path for the rest of the organization do that make sure they get the right report but also make sure that it doesn't need to be successful pilots this is a successful pilot is where we have learned a lot that enables us to make better decisions in the beginning just have a pilot where everything just works out brilliant but we haven't really learned how to do this in a larger scale it's not really a good pilot it can be a really good selling a point for forgetting to be allowed to do this in a broader scale but we haven't learned that much scale and improve as soon as we get the idea of of how to to do this road out the teams do it make powerful strong teams but don't fool ourselves to believe that this will never change I guess that nine out of ten of the transformation I've done one year or one and a half year down the road we we will rearrange the teams and and and because we have learned about how to organize better adjust processes and structure the overall structure around how we work breakdown silos and so on and build competences the competences are really important to do and and make sure we get the best kind of of education into into the organization as possible this is a really good investment and make sure that also the the culture of actually take ownership of own competence are in place the transformation model that I'm using and if you want to learn more about this you can just contact me I have quite a lot of the coffee meetings just talking about how to do this it doesn't need to be a bigger case than that so you can just contact me if you want to I have cases and stuff that could support this so based on the on the the 10 last years of transformations me and my colleagues have been doing we have made this transformation model that we've worked with for the last three years I guess so we believe in in in building a transformation based on hypothesis that is super important for for how we work everything is just hypothesis before we have validated our something some of them are more supportive you could say experience but this is quite important we use coaching we use mentoring we use training a lot and we also make sure that we have a quite powerful approach to change management I believe in in lean change management agile change management approaches where we use these hyperthesis and validate those in iterations that is my approach other kind of change management's you can say format a concept would also work it does need to be aware of the need to have some specialists in doing change management it should be something that fits the culture we then look at our transformation in four different categories so we have the management and culture we need to be aware of that and we need to make sure our guidance coalition have people that can support that and has knowledge on that managers HR and so on then the organization and governance so our operating model on how we have structured our our organization how we have what kind of reporting systems we have what kind of policies which kind of structures we have here make sure that we have a focus on changing those deliverables and team delivery and teams that's tools that's from that's can band that's from master's product owners scaling agile structures and so on would be in this area and then we need to make sure that we also have an eye on how to build our architectures so it's also support an agile ways of working so opposite of a static approach to to to building products the agile approach actually needs a little bit different architecture that I support current refactoring new ways of of doing stuff and and being able to test out the stuff and also how are we actually using our architectures in the organization and also operations how are we doing this on the left hand side before we get started with all of this I talk about this as an initial phase in the preparation phase establish the vision and goals this is done at the same time as we get started in the organization get some some early ideas on how to do this establish this guiding coalition as I mentioned schedule the startup the startup is also where we educate the top management if we're allowed but the transformation could be half a year down the road after we actually entered the organization the first time we need to make sure that we are ready before we do the transformation and point some pilots to get some early learning in the end I would say that our approach and our goal would be that agile and also the learning culture is is a natural part of the organization DNA and they would just continue to do stuff so if if an organization is not in a couple of years working there with scrum and camp and and whatever kind of tools that we have teach them but still are on a learning path it's all good the agile will never be the goal the goal is that we get more learning and more capabilities of of actually improve along the way super important principles for us have been really important and also to make sure that we aligned with those principles before we can we can work with the client so we help the the client will challenge but the client must own and lead the change themselves other companies other consultants are doing it differently take upon the full organization and the ownership of the transformation I don't believe in that I'm a really strong believer in that the that the organization needs to take on the ownership themselves sometimes we need to balance on this sometimes we need to push a little bit more than and show the way then that I would dream of but the but the concept must be that the the customer owns this transformation itself the design is based on the specific needs definitely a specific needs for for a current situation in a company a specific company organization we do not without really thinking about and just copy what other organizations are doing you're probably seeing that earlier and also in the future we'll see that we'll just copy what other companies have done super bad idea because this fitting and and tailoring of the processes are super important but also when we do this we get some some education and some some some competences built up in the organization if you just fast forward through those kind of learnings a lot of mistakes will be made during the the implementation we believe in experimentation we do that early we do that with our pilots but we do that ongoing also afterwards because we can actually figure out what will work in advance we have a good idea the customers cannot foresee either what will happen so we get this feeling of experimentation we have a lot of good ideas a lot of good assumptions of what will work but everything needs to be changed a little bit in my experience to make it work so we invite we inspire people the organization because we believe that no one can actually be forced to to change so some one of the questions earlier on was about how the organization react if we just push put an idea on top of a team or some some employees and say now we do this because I believe it's a good idea that's impossible you cannot force anybody to change you can make them do things differently but their mindset will not change before they understand this so invite them instead and have a bottom up top down approach at the same time that would be my recommendation at least so a few more questions maybe before we run out of time and at our principle is to end on time with time box and show so let's try that any questions that we could take may I jump in I have a good question if that's okay Martin so often when organizations take on change there's a large cost involved one to pay the consultant the second the actual cost to the organization during the period of the transformation and the question is asked well so I'm putting in this much money how much money am I kind of getting back in terms of you know maybe value to the customer how do you answer that question so some of my competitors are actually promising benefits in economics I don't do that because you cannot afterwards actually prove that that you're right so many things with value you can just look the last three four years in the world nothing can be foreseen so we don't know what's actually working so instead of that I tried to make them up front think about the opportunities that they have still in the organization how much opportunity do you think you have left what how much more capacity how much better product could you build and and measure or put a price tag on that okay how much would that actually be value and that's quite a lot and then the cost of the consultants are nothing and also my approach would be have a minimum set of consultants that doesn't need to be the big price tag here the price tag are actually the change make sure that you have room for learning otherwise you would get a surprise down the down the road so I tried to not promise anything the best thing is actually to to take them in the hands and invite them to to another client and and see results there and then they okay it seems like I believe in that story so yeah unfortunately the other thing would be good then I could take much more for my services if I could actually prove the impact but I'm afraid I haven't really found that out yet yeah so we are out of time yeah more or less I guess yeah yeah I we have one question but it takes really long time but we have a comment from I Kwanlit you made a comment here which I if you would like to yeah and it's it's a bit too long for for the time box yeah yeah yeah okay but it's it's more of a reflection so Martin yeah yeah to take it yeah I liked it that's why I want to yeah okay let's let's say for for those of you that are leaving now thank you for for listening in I know that it has been recorded and the presentation I can send it out and you can share it if you want to I'm not sure you can also just contact me there's no secrets in in this so no problem I'm on LinkedIn and actually react on on the DM's there so we can take five more minutes and try to elaborate on this question I don't know what the question is but it so would anybody involve me in that yeah so the short version I hope is is on a different level in your talk about your experiences with customers that triggered a lot of questions in the group that's here today so what does that say about the current state of agile what does that say about us as a group what does that say about us and our customers so I believe that that we still have these classes between cultures and and beliefs and values so even though we can speak the same language because we've heard agile scrum have been there for for seven years more than 20 years scrum 30 years so so we've heard about it we can speak the language and but but how we actually interpret that our own values are crowded a lot different and we have still a lot of expectations in the organizations on on results and and and being busy in its own results and that's also in all kind of changes a big problem to actually get the the the time and room to make to make the change so I think because we we think we talk about the same but we don't we don't really dig down in the in in in the layers and figure out where we actually don't really align and build on that so so my approach would be this education make sure that we really build on on on building up capacity or competence within the organization normally that takes more than a few weeks it can take half a year before we actually get that same language that's also why I'm actually quite patient with the customers instead of just rushing through something that I believe is the correct thing make sure we have a little bit of pull from the organization where we start to to understand these kind of ways of working and also sometimes you just need to realize okay it will break at some point of time and after that break then we can have the the real learning right and be brave enough to to be part of that because as soon as you implement transparency all the problems will just show up and somebody if we don't we haven't really changed the culture of blaming people who start blaming each other who are who are to blame on these problems and and you really need to be aware of that and make sure that that you can handle that somehow a strong consultant can can help a lot but not solve everything you can facilitate the dialogue yeah but also when you ask about where are agile right now we believe we are a long way but actually I believe more that we are just just getting started what you will see in in the coming years are a lot of new leaders that have been been been been born in agile organization getting out there they have been on middle management maybe department managers but they are starting to to grow their own career so I would expect that that that that we will in the future get better conditions for actually do these kind of transformations because just much more many persons in the company and in the management layer I have had practically already experienced in in working like this yeah and maybe the the word agile in the future will be a little bit different but really the foundation is the same yeah so should we try to cut the presentation here yeah so big thank you to you Martin yeah thank you for inviting me great yeah a lot of engagement in the audience which really shows it was a good presentation so thank you for all yeah thank you have a nice day everybody good luck out there thank you thank you thank you