 You're welcome back. It's still the break faster on PLOS TV, Africa, and now we're taking this disturbing trend. Moan Nigerians may join the jackpot train as hardship worsens. That is the topic for discussion this morning. And we're glad to be joined this morning by Mr. Joe Fermi Dagunro, founder, Lagos Forum. Good morning and welcome to the program, Mr. Fermi Dagunro. Good morning. Okay. Well, the JAPA syndrome, it's become a trend now. Everybody wants to go outside, and we're attributing it this, or Nigerians are attributing this JAPA syndrome to the hardships that have become the order of the day in Nigeria. I'd like to get your comment on these predictions that more people are going to try to run away from the country because it is harder and harder. Well, first of all, I don't see it as running away. These are migrants with purpose and migration or emigration or whichever way you call it, or JAPA or JA law or JA song or whatever name you call it. People at some time have to find a better place for their life. And, you know, migration has been, you know, before Christ was born. You know, so people migrated from places to places. So it is not new. But why we are attaching it to hardship or whatever you call it. But I know most Nigerians that are living the country right now are living the country for a purpose. Most of them are going to improve on their education. And don't forget, some of them are already having jobs before they leave this country. And it's a phenomenon right now. We should look at it from the positive side of it. You can't be in a company. Let's say, for example, I know a very young lady who has been in a company, in a bank for that matter, for 11 years as a temporary worker. 11 good years as temporary worker. And her salary was not more than $50,000 after 11 years. You know, so you expect that lady to stay there permanently for the rest of her life as temporary worker? No. Even if it is not leaving the country, she has to change her job. She has to find a better career, a better place for her career to grow. So when you see this stagnancy in careers, stagnancy, in lifestyle, in everything, you find a better place for yourself. So migration is a boost in a way as well for the economy. Because these people are living, but they are not living, they are not living without having a purpose. They are living, they have their job, they will remit money to their parents or their families at home. And at the same time, look at what immigration is gaining from it, the immigration services. They are selling their passport like crazy right now. So a lot of advantages we come up during this period as well. So like I said, these are migrants with purpose and it is something that can be encouraged at this point in time. Yeah, my question is that why does it have to be that if you're looking for greener pastures, you have to leave this country. You just gave an example of someone who was stagnant as a temporary staff for 11 years. And I know how that feels, trust me. For 11 years, and this kind of a person will have to leave. Why can't the system be such that those kind of things will never happen and people will not need to have to leave to another country before they can further their education, for instance, and get health care that they need and all that. There was a time people were coming to the University of Ibadan to get help, whether educational, whether health and all that. We were the ones who floated a TV station before even, I think, France and all that. And now we seem to be going back. Is that not a worrisome thing for you that people have to live here because the conditions are not right? Well, there must always be a purpose for living or for doing anything in life. And if the purpose is to have a better life, yes, why not? You see, I keep saying, most of the professors, most of the people you see today, even in the University, they've gone out to improve on their lifestyle, on their education and the comeback. There are chances that this will still come back. I say, give them another five years or 10 years, a decade. Most of them will have been at the age of about 50, 60. Some of them will decide to come back and some of them will decide to stay back there. But the most important thing is that I know one of them. She's a graphic designer. I happen to talk to a lot of all these young men and women. She has an account in Nigeria. So she's still doing the job she was doing here as a self, as an independent graphic designer. And if you pay her, you have to pay her in Naira. And she uses that money to take care of her parents or other things she wants to do. So we should not look at it from the point of negativity. We should look at it that these young men and women, they have to go in abroad to school or to work. It's an added advantage. When you come back, I've seen, I've been privileged to train a couple of doctors in Germany. And this doctor, there's a particular doctor from Emo State. The guy was so good that even they wanted to retain him. He's a medical consultant. And before you know it, the guy got a job in South Africa. You know, when you go abroad to train, you add something to it. You add more to your knowledge. And you are better off in a way because people want to know that you have improved your knowledge. So we cannot say they cannot as well be in Nigeria to do their postgraduate, their trainings and whatever. But somehow there are things we don't still have in this country. And we have to improve on it. I agree with you. We have to improve on our educational system. That's why a lot of all these reforms have to take place. But these reforms cannot just happen overnight. It takes time. And it is within this period that the government, the new government now, the government of Bola Meditium will have to sit back and review all these things and begin to look at how to make it work in a better way. That is the only thing. But to restrict or to say people will not leave, yes, people will leave and they have to find a better way for their life. You can't restrict them. So the more these guys, we have a lot of people, brilliant men and women, all of them cannot and will not leave this country at the same time. Germany right now, they are looking for nurses, thousands of nurses. They are going to come around here and recruit. That means we have done something good. That means our people are better. For Germany to say, look, we want to recruit nurses from Africa, for UK to recruit adopters, for America, Canada to retain our people. We are doing something good. That means despite all this, we still have something good in our people and better off. So India did it. They allowed their people to go and look at what has happened today. China, they did it. All our countries are doing it. So it's an added advantage. But one thing is this, the government of Nigeria, they have to make sure that it's well coordinated. Nigeria in the diaspora organization, they have to make sure that it's a database and they have to convince the people that it's going to be used. It's not going to be used against them because most Nigerians in the diaspora, mind you, I was one of them, right? I schooled there and I stayed there for almost about 30 years. So I know what I'm talking about. Most of them will not go to the Nigerian embassy to register. And it is not enough for us to just say, Nigeria diaspora organization, we go to a UK or America and just have a meeting with some 10 people or 20 people and say, we have met them. No, we have to reach out to these people. We have to get the database to know that these are the people we have in these countries. And it must not be only in UK, in popular countries like UK, Canada, and America. We have people. Before now, we do not know that Nigerians, there are so many in Ukraine until the war started. So we have to encourage the people that are listening there. But unless you do something good at home, these guys will not come. Unless they can be trusted, they can trust you that, look, electricity will work, things will work. I know a doctor who said it cannot come home because the equipment should bring back to Nigeria. They can't function well. Once the electricity is gone, that is the end of the equipment. So there are a lot of things that we have to work on. We can't just compare people to say, go and come, no. But let them go. Let them attain the heights. Let them get to where they want to go. In the military, you have them there. In businesses, in banking sector, you have them all over the place. It's something good for our country. And I think while I'm not encouraging, and I know that not all Nigerians will go anyway, but I know that more will see go and is an advantageous thing because they're not going to seek asylum. They're going to seek a better future for themselves. So that's why I said they are migrants with purpose, migrants with focus. So it's encouraged. I don't know. Let me understand this. People are worried about, when they talk about this Jaguar syndrome, they're worried about brain drain because best of our doctors moving, best of our nurses moving, best of our academia are moving. Everybody that has something to offer Nigeria is almost everybody is moving. Now, does it not worry you when people talk brain drain? You're talking about encouraging these people because they're going to make their lives better. I don't know how to marry this too. You see, brain drain is just what we want to use to scare people. Yes, that would be sort of a vacuum. Yes, you see vacuum. If you go to some hospitals now, you see vacuum. It's going to be filled because already you have unemployment in this country, even while these people are here. So it is not because there's unemployment. There's a gap and this gap can be filled with those who are at home. You are here. I'm here. A lot of people will come back. They will relocate to Nigeria as well. As people are leaving, probably fewer people because we relocate to Nigeria because they want something of standard. But there will be opportunity for other people who are looking for jobs to get employed. There will be more opportunity for people to get themselves in a better place as well. So yes, it is something that is happening. When you say most of our best doctors are leaving, best nurses are leaving, best professors are leaving, but then you can restrict them. Let's have it straight. It is whether the government likes it or not, whether the government is going to think about it or not, they will still be. But I know that yes, the economy has to be vibrant for people to have what they want. The economy has to be vibrant. Then the economy, if the economy is vibrant, if you have jobs that is worth paying, you know, that people can just work and get, I mean, maybe 100,000, 200,000 they are demanding. I don't know how viable that would be for the government, but it's only not the government. We have the private sector. We have to improve on the private sector. The banks are declaring billions annually. So why can they invest in people as well? Why can they give people the opportunity to have loans without having to break their head every week or every month? You know, when you take a loan and you are supposed to pay 38% or 40% or 20% or something, it's killing. And you want the people to stay here? No. So we have to face the reality. It's not just the government, the private sector. Liberal Congress, that's where the NLC, they have to do something. It's not just about strike. It's just about talking to people. It's just about making people feel comfortable to stay in this country. Yes, the government has a role to play. They have to make, you know, they have to give incentives to the government, to the private sector as well. Sorry. They have to give incentives to the employers so that they can employ more people. You don't tax people carelessly. But now, but don't forget, the government needs to generate funds as well because they are low on their funds right now. So a lot of things have gone bad in this country. A lot of things have gone bad. So now the government of Bola Metinumbu has a lot on his hand to tackle. And I think when you see somebody like Tywo heading the tax force, you know, you see, okay, brilliant people are coming in right now and they are going to do something beautiful. But we have to be cautious as well. The list of the official list of the ministers are not yet out. And but people are speculating that lots of regulations are going on. Oh, who are these to come in to handle this? Do they know what to do? These are the same people that have been handling it before. And the young people don't really want to see all these people to say, oh, is it the same person that has been doing it before that is going to do it now? What changes is he going to make? So for them, look at the newer people coming, look at the new folks coming into the team. And that is why we have to support. We have to be able to say, listen, governments should listen to these people and governments should encourage these people. But then it's something that is fundamental. It's a fundamental human right. You can't stop them. Honestly speaking, you can't stop them. Well, that much is true. You can't stop them. But when the conditions are better, a lot of them wouldn't have to move. But right now you said the present administration needs money and all that. At what expense do we need this money? At the expense of the people, we've just seen that the president administration is trying to get, according to the president himself, that he wants to get 30 trillion in three years. He wants to generate that. We don't see a clear court plan of generating that except taxation, 7.5 percent here, taxation on these, taxation on that. And people are already grumbling now that subsidy has been removed. Well, the political will is there. And it shows that he can take very tough decisions like he promised he was going to do during his campaigns and all that. But all these that we're trying to do, at whose expense? We want to make money. We want to pay our debts and all that. But who is going to bear the brunt? Is it still Nigerians or are there other creative ways that the government can use? I take, for instance, I was talking before this my time with you that I had to make a transaction at some point a few days ago of 10,000 Naira. And the bank collected 250 Naira for that transaction, just like the POS. There's no difference nowadays. In fact, POS might collect 200. And now the bank has collected 250 Naira, which means if I do 10 transactions, it's going to be crazy. And possibly it's because of the taxes that they also are paying to government, the 7.5 percent or any other tax that they are paying. So money is being cut from us here and there and people are not even able to feed well. So aren't we just trying to make things better by killing the people that should enjoy the things that will be made better? That's my worry. So if you were to talk to the government now, let me just break it down. If you want to talk to the government now on more creative ways of making money, what would your advice be? Because we cannot continue to pay tax for everything as high as we are doing right now. In Ghana, it's not done like that. For instance, you pay money to someone to take your money. You collect money from someone to take your money and all that. It's not done. So what are the creative ways that government can do to make this money that they are projecting in three years? Well, you see, sad enough, the people have to pay taxes. The people have to bear the ground, sad enough. Nobody will come from another country to sort this things out for us. But the thing is this, when there is transparency, when there is dialogue, when there is good information to the people of this country, to Nigeria generally, they will understand it. And when they see, when the Nigerians see the sincerity in government, they will understand it. I want the government to be transparent and to be sincere with what they are saying. That's number one. I want the people in the, I mean, the scenic to cut their cost. I want the people, the rep to cut their cost. The state of us, the state assemblies to cut their cost. So if government can show their sincerity and say, look, we are part of you. We are doing this to support ourselves. The people who say, hooray, yes, they are doing it. Then if that is done, then you look at the, you know, the informal sector of the economy. If you, I mean, that was the time. I mean, some, I think after the COVID or sometime, the past government said, look, don't pay taxes or whatever, if you're a small-scale business owner, if you are not making more than 25 million per annum, so you can increase that. I said, look, don't pay taxes if you are not making 50 million. You know, so people we have, you know, that's, yes, he's thinking about us. Don't pay taxes when you are not making anything. I mean, these are, but if you say, generally, everybody should just pay, pay as you earn. I mean, I know companies, they are not even selling anything. A woman was complaining the other day to herself, look, she has, you know, a loan of about 30 million closer in her shop. She's not selling, nobody's buying. So you still want that woman to pay tax? No, she won't. And she's already having, you know, high blood pressure and stuff like that. So we have to begin to listen to the people, the government have to listen to the people and make the creative way is to encourage the people to do more. If you are fighting inflation with high interest rates, it may not work. These are not things that, you know, because it's a theory, the economic theory says that, that it must work. We have given loans out in the past that people are not even paying anymore. And the farmers are not having the best. Then we have to begin to look at some of these things that have been done in the past that were meant for the people of this country. The ecological fund that was being paid to the governors and all the other state governments and whatever the stakeholder, where this money, you know, has not been accounted for. And we are still having this erosion. We are having this problem. And this government, again, we come back and start dishing out money for the same thing. So let's begin to investigate gradually. I know that may not be the prime thing now, but gradually let people be accountable for what they have done and what they are doing. If people see accountability, you know, the rainy season is here and it's coming more. I mean, we are talking about erosion, we are talking about things that we destroy people's life, it will destroy the farms and then we will have problem with food security. So these are a lot of things that people have to consider. So even those who are living the country, they will be bothered because their parents, their family, their friends will be writing to them and calling them every day, send me dollars, send me something, whatever. So the problem, they are carrying it along with them. So it's a problem. So the government has to come and tell us, look, you have taken so much for this month, for instance, if you have X amount of money, what are you going to use this X amount of money for? What have you used it for? So if we are transparent to that point of telling us what you have used the money or what you are using the money for, who are the contractors working on this project? How much have they been paid? Then all these things will be there. How many of these people have declared, you know, that they say, look, there's this, you have to declare your income, your taxes. Are the people in government doing the same thing? What are they earning? Let's just, people keep speculating the salaries of the senators and their allowances. Nobody knows. I mean, to my knowledge, people are speculating nobody has said, look, this is what we earn and these are the allowances we pay. So it cannot be that you and I, the common people, have to be at the brunt always. No. And you see, if companies are saying, look, we are not employing, why are they not employing? Because they cannot afford to, you know, they are struggling. Most companies, especially the small, medium enterprises, they are struggling to make ends meet. Then in the course of it, you want to jack up the price of electricity. No, this thing cannot be done that way. You know, but I think, I think, there too, are the people in government of Bola Medina would be looking at this thing critically to understand that, look, we can do this now. We can do this now. I don't know how well their plan is or what their plans are to say they want to generate so much money in three years. They have their plans and let us wait and see what the plans are. But for now, it is good that the president has listened to the cries of the people to, you know, shut down some of these taxes, like this 1000 Naira, like all these taxes, they have shut some of them down. So even if they are going to come up in the Naira spiritual, but not now, let the people have a breathing space. But they might come up one way or the other, but not now. I know when you read that even the yellow jazz, the people selling bananas and all those people in the market, they have to be paying taxes. You think you can get Kubo out of those guys? They will not. You know, how many people are buying plantain right now? I wonder how many households are eating plantain this month. And they have to plantain to get bad in the market as well. So a lot of things are happening. But then the government has a lot to do. I'm looking at it that between now and October, first of October, let's see what we come up. Let's see how the government is going to, you know, impress the people. It's a hard task. It's a very hard task. We must face it. Because the problem we have right now, it is not just today or yesterday or day before yesterday. The problem has been there even since independence. But nobody has been able to tackle it. Nobody has been able to see. Thank God that we have resources that is really untapped in Nigeria. Thank God we still have them. Otherwise, look at how much has been stashed away in other countries. Look at how much has been stolen by our people. It is not just the foreigner that are stealing our money. We are the people stealing our money ourselves. And we cannot control ourselves to say, look, bring what you have stolen. And that is what is painful to a lot of Nigerians. And that is why these young people, they feel sad about it, you know. Okay. Well, this is where we will wrap it up on this segment. Mr. Joe Femi Dagunro, thank you so much for coming on the program and helping us make sense of all the things that are happening. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Okay. We've been talking with Mr. Joe Femi Dagunro, founder Lagos Forum on the breakfast this morning. We'll take a short break when we return. We were looking at the daily consumption of fuel having dropped by 18.5 million liters after deregulation. Stay with us.