 Well welcome to our second hot topic another case of civil society keeping government on its toes as court orders federal government to account for a batch of loot recovered since 1999. The social economic rights and accountability project will be throwing more light on this as we have been joined by Mr. Kolawale Oluwadari deputy director Serap they actually instituted that case. Good morning Mr. Kolawale Oluwadari. Morning. All right well judgment was delivered on July 3rd on this case. President Tenubu ordered you know has been ordered to disclose the exact sum stolen by Genosani Abacha from Nigeria through the Ministry of Finance and then the total amount recovered. All agreements signed on same by former president Oduchebo Vasanjo, Omar Yerutwa, Good Lord Jonathan and Mohamed Abu-Hare. Tell us they can't gave this administration this government seven days to make this information available. Are we looking at today and what has been done with regards to that order has actually been taken? Very much. Ordinaryly since the parties were all in processes and the parties are the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Justice. It is presumed in law that they are privy to the president and they are privy to the judgment already. But we've taken the extra step of writing to the president and these concerned ministries affording the satisfactory copy of the judgment to them. So the judgment ideally begins the seven days begins to count from the date of the judgment since they believe the law were participated in the proceedings by the processes that followed. But we've taken extra portion of sentiments that might copy the judgment along with the request in demand for the president to direct these affected ministries to obey the judgment of court. So what follows next or what should follow next then in democracy is that the judgment of court is obeyed and those details are requested by Sarah and as ordered by the court they are obeyed by all available means to ensure that the nations have access to them. It's simply put that is what should happen and that's what we expect to have. Today is seven days. Correct. Mr. Loadare. Yes, I can hear you. Yeah, it was delivered on the third. So it's expected that today you should have at least had that document. Correct. That's why the apartheid's judgments, they even join his use in his suit and presumes were notice of the judgment, but we have also taken the extra portion to write. So the seven days ideally as far as the court is concerned begins to count from the third of July. But we are also waiting for the president. So what we are waiting for is compliance on the part of these agencies when they are not called. So what happens after the seven days is what is the next action that Sarah can take legally? Unfortunately, this is one of those, the conquest of the dysfunctional democracy of government. Actually, it is not about Sarah doing anything. It should be about the government obeying the court and obeying the court is very simple. It means that these agencies of government publish the details about the court and publish it in this instance stated by the FYI includes using different measures and means includes on the on the website of the Ministry of Finance, on the website of the Ministry of Justice by newsletters, brochures and every available means government against it to make this information available. So the information is not meant to be made available to set but to the public, to the nuclear citizens because the suit itself is predicated on the public interest and these are the behalf of the nuclear citizens in the interest of the nuclear citizens. Who should know? How about that's coming by a way of a term on which I can spend and how they may expect. Don't forget the sentence of the unit that the victims in this instance, those function that left in the end of the first place, now that they've come back in, the victims should be the main beneficiaries. But it means it should start from knowing what you're coming, how they tend to expect. Okay, well, what how much has come in and how much has been spent and how it has been spent is something that can be achievable. But one of the demands according to the report that we heard that Seraph was demanding for was how much a batch actually looted. Is that even a possibility? We keep seeing, I see every year one one tranche of it every year, another another tranche of it coming in that we didn't even know about. Is it possible to know how much was really stolen by the abacha government? It's possible. But the main focus of the suit is how much has been recovered, which is very important. When it is important to know how much has been stolen, it is much more important to know how much has been recovered. Unless we hear some figures been barred in the round about time, but that is not enough. We need to know exactly to do it's more or less called how much has been recovered in the various tranches. And now those funds are to be And that also includes the role of international agencies have played in the coming of those funds. And perhaps whether there are agreements that the years have entered to enter the government specific way to sponsor those funds. Indians, they start to know what the law says. The Oncac Convention on Ideas are new to all clearly states. In this instance, the reparation for the big teams on sub-corrosion. Everything there is Now that those funds are coming, the victims not currently should be, should know that that's not the reparations that are coming out that it's spent who benefits us in those spending. So the focus is on how much has come in now that it's spent. And then you would understand that the essence of this kind of advocacy is to ensure, first of all, that its funds do not leave Nigeria the same way they left the private budgets. Exactly. Nigerians have been curious about how these recovered loots have been spent. We publicly hear of, you know, their return to Nigeria. We hear, for instance, in November 2022, we learned that $20 million was returned to Nigeria. In 2020, we heard that $311.7 million was also returned. But then we do not get to hear how they were spent. So this ruling would put an end to some of the mysteries, expectedly, if the government would respond to it. There's a batch of loot mystery. Many Nigerians are looking forward to see. And you have said that you did not go to just for syrup, but for the Nigerian masses. Now tell us what you know about the three critical infrastructure projects that the U.S. signed with the government that these monies that went returned should be channeled into. Do you have any information to eat at all? And is this one of the reasons why you went to court over this matter? We went to court because we had requested this information from the government by way of a freedom of information request in the consonants with the Freedom of Information Act and sections that now the constitutional guarantees are synchronized with those itself and the freedom of expression that is addressed to the function. It is because we did not get those answers that we ended up in court. And the aim of the freedom of information request as part of our advocacy for transparency and accountability is to make government use available funds, public funds in the interest of Nigerians to better the welfare of Nigerians. Also, economic rights now have been abused over time. There is growing poverty in Nigerians. The NPS National and Europe Studies has listed more than more than three million Nigerians at war. There is multi-dimensional reports. Inflation is rising. The removal of persons in these has raised a cost of living. Cost of governments has continued to go up. We Nigerians need it in death. What more indices do we need to show that government must, at this time, more than any other time, prioritize social economic rights of Nigerians? I would like to, to be speaking simply, fulfill the important quality education at Pottingham Waterhouse. For the Bogeyanskate, we're talking on, talking on security. And these are provisions of the Constitution that has been guaranteed to Nigeria. These is the reason why we are officers, elected, public officers elected and appointed in the office. So, basically, what Sarah, the base of this has looked at is to ensure that much of their public funds, in this instance where we have our challenge, is used for the benefit of Nigerians. So, the protest that governments want to undertake this is not as important as the manner in which we suspect. And we've seen this done over time. Governments see this as an allocated social amount to education. Governments see this as an allocated this to security. But we do not see it in real time. It doesn't refer to the reality. We do not have a way of infrastructure on economic development and subsystems. And that is why these are the reasons to ensure that we have public funds to protect our infrastructure and governments without recourse to loans and to ensure principality. And this again doesn't end up in primary pockets. So, whether this is used for education, for health, or able to cushion the effect of the brighting crunch of the economy, the most important thing is that the economic rights of Nigerians are respected. And that we all see, government can account for this, how these funds have been spent. Which are ways that these funds can be spent, for instance, is to ensure that our health infrastructure, both at the touch of personal and primary levels, and they have to take care of Nigerians. And it also means that the various aspects of our education, right from primary to secondary school, is funded enough to afford quality education. But again, it is not enough to talk about sectors, education, resource applications in the sector. What is most important is to ensure that they are spent with the losses that you spend and they do not be in private pockets. We see budgets coming year after year. Huge amounts of money, growing the deficit continues. How are you just trust it? Which is why Nigerians need to ensure that, sustain this advocacy, to ensure that either this administration or previous administrations, anything that I point to the Nigerian government, is monitored and spent and transparency for the benefit of Nigerians. Yeah, I must say kudos to Serap for being so dogged in this fight. Matter of fact, most Nigerians no longer have confidence in NGOs. Well, not all NGOs. Some NGOs and some CSOs as much as they have confidence in Serap. So kudos to you. But wouldn't it have been so great to have those individual presidents who dispensed these monies answer to these questions, answer these questions. Government is continuum, there's no doubt. But wouldn't it have been more exciting to have these individual presidents who dispense these monies give account? Of course, it would have been, but the practicality of that is the challenge. For instance, this suit was filed in 2020 and we have enjoyed it in 2023. Three years after the suit was filed, this also coupled with the slow pace of Kyrgyzstan challenge has also been led to these issues. But much more importantly, whether those presidents are, they are yet office or not is immaterial. The principal parties to this suit are the Ministry of Finance and the Minister of Justice. Those ministries that still exist, they are continuous. When I am, ministers are pointed to anyone who wants to say continuum. So move on with Kyrgyzstan. Like, while the people who are in the station for instance are not being made on the obligations of Nigerians for the loans that they collected by previous administrations, they cannot say they don't have those records. They cannot say that they do not want to hold the keyboard Nigerians in on the bucket. So in the set, in the set frame, these funds are coming by way of Nigeria since 1999, under many different administration protocols. Nigerians, it does not stop these engineers at the moment who, by non-stakeholders, they play the bottom roles in the recovery and allocation and the expenditure of this funds, by the way. And I'm talking about the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Justice to work for them. So it is not about the presence of the administration. It is about institutions of government in this instance. The two ministries that are parties to this suit and who played very important roles in the movement of these funds, who in every movement have an excuse, they should be able to give account for how much they're coming, how much they spend, and the status of that spending has any kind of judgmental cause. Yeah, matter of fact, the Ministry of Finance had earlier given the excuse that it was unable to account for the requested documents. And the Council to the federal government had also said that Serap had no local standing. But you persisted. They caught dismissed their arguments and you got judgment. How does it feel to be at this point in this fight and do you see your victory? Well, the victory of this whole case opening the floodgate for more CSOs, Nigerians who have been accused of having been too docile to come up and ask government to account for our public wealth. It's, they don't the suit. And these kind of the delay in the suits are some kind of discouraging effect. And the box, fortunately, judge made and given in this instance. And I'm very happy that the judge could see through the field to dispense the fences of both respondents in the court. And that is why we have judgment in this record. And I do not necessarily think this will open the litigation. The civic space in Nigeria as I'm with the tribe, apart from the various actions of the government to style forward the string of civic space by preventing robust engagement. But the Nigerians have been talking and persistence also much more like Serap in the consistent and cohesive of good governance. So I look more politically and learn more less civic in the government space which is still the same and cohesive towards good governance. And I believe that Nigerians will think and Nigerians are will be lacking where moral politics go and where we have much more governance than we used to be about since 1999. You understand the basic rights of citizens as rights holders and those non-computers as duty bearers. But what we need to do more about and the hope is that this kind of judgment the Nigerians are able to take this up and further the course of misogynism. Make sure that questions like these judgments like this remain on the front bottom of public discourse that is a concept and by our subsistence if the team do decision of influence on which of course that is very very lengthy. The same question political institutions have asked of this administration whether already the lack of research administration or whether it has gone that people can ask now more is coming and now what have been spent. So this judgment is another one of those the victories for democracy and what is the situation of us but more importantly the the executive that obligated to be this judgment in fortress or transverse unaccompanied governments and a total rate of aggression. Okay we we do hope that when the government comes and tells you that the money was used for trader money the money was used for school feeding program the money was used for Alcor Boraz program you can be able to scrutinize even if the money they claim to have spent was we spent that way or you take it a step further we'd like to thank you this morning it's it's a pity this is how much we can take on the show this morning thank you so much for coming on the program okay we're talking with Barista Kolaouale Oluwa Dari deputy director of CERAP and he was telling us about the court judgment that has just been gotten by CERAP for the government to be transparent enough to tell us what monies have come in from their abacha loot and how the monies have been spent but this is where we'll draw the curtain for today except for the court of the day the court of the day will be coming um okay or maybe I should just just give them the court of the day sometimes the people around you wouldn't understand your journey they do not need to it's not for them this is from yogurt both are advising us advice yourself my name is Nyamukin and I am Maurene do you have explained the day and thanks for being with us