 Welcome everyone to the talk. It's great that everybody is here. I think there are two seats but everything else is booked out. So today we will talk about the state of green software and cloud native and you might think why are we here? We are both with the technical advisory group from the CNCF on environmental sustainability as you can see on the slides below. So you might have joined yesterday the keynotes where we have two talks, two keynotes on sustainability and we are from the TAG giving this talk so just for clarification. My name is Leo. I'm a student and I'm also working for liquid reply. I'm doing a bunch of open source work. I'm an ambassador for the CNCF that the Kubernetes release team and it's it's awesome to be here and Cara is with me. Cara? I'm Cara Dilia and I am part of Red Hat. I'm a principal community architect focusing on cloud sustainability and financial services especially around sustainable finance. I sit in our office of the CTO and I am part of the Ferama technical lead in the TAG. Nice. I think that's useful. Why does sustainability matter? So if you're not familiar or just a level set with sustainability there are two important things to be aware of and that's the 2023 agenda for sustainable development. There are actually 16 goals around that and it's essentially what you're thinking of for your ESG for environment, for sustainability and then pardon me social governance and then also governance is the G. And then the Paris agreement which is also for also known as the Paris climate agreement. And so the Paris agreement is focused around the temperature when you were talking about greenhouse gas and carbon emissions and then the agenda for sustainable development is going to be more of the regulation that is associated for sustainability. And there are 16 of them. They were implemented by the UN in September of 2015. Okay. And for the CNCF you might wonder what is the TAG? What does it like how does it fit in the CNCF landscape? So as an end consumer you are not really aware of the internals how the CNCF works. So this is just an overview to get the idea of what we are actually working on. So you are already aware I mean you're at KubeCon so you know all these cool projects sandbox projects incubating projects graduated projects which are on the right side and in the CNCF we need to kind of oversight all these projects and need to make sure that the ecosystem is mature and it's nice and it's good developing in a nice way and we want to connect projects and develop standards and everything. So there's a group of people in the technical oversight committee a couple of these are also on the keynote stage for example or giving talks so you might be already know know some from the TLC committee and the TLC is extended by tax. So you can see all those cool icons and we now added last last fall the sustainability TAG so the whale the whale down there that's that's us and we we work so every TAG works with the projects and as I said like focusing on one domain and yeah we now created the TAG we are super excited. So with our charter we as Leo mentioned started last fall we were accepted in right before KubeCon North America and our goal is to advocate for and develop sustainability initiatives within cloud native technologies. We have an extensive charter on our GitHub repo and especially is going to help what we might not necessarily focus on. So we are in and it's something I mentioned in the keynote yesterday is we're really focused on is cross-collaborating with other initiatives like the green software foundation, OS climate, other open source projects that are climate aligned so that we can be able to create some best practices and cohesion among the projects and we also are working on and it's in the proposal phase but some best practice best practices as a checklist. Right now we're not as focused we are not focused on code but it doesn't mean that that's not what's coming down the pike we are just forming and norming and so I hope that that is an entry point for anyone to feel like that they can get involved because we want to make sure that this is on everybody's agenda and also one of the things that was mentioned in our tag meeting which we had here on site is a way to go back and talk to your peers or talk to your the businesses that you work with to be able to understand what the value of sustainability is in cloud native and how it can be attributed back to your development goals. All right so as we mentioned two times already we started in fall so there's not a lot of time but I mean plenty of time to kick off some initiatives and the first thing I think this is like for every tag the first thing to do look in look at the landscape look what we have right now where's the CNCF standing with sustainability do we already have projects in the ecosystem and we have and this is also discussed on some later slides a first 0.1 version about the landscape so this is not not a final version as you can already see from from the versioning number so it's pretty much also a call to to you or everybody who is interested in this topic to also check if we missed something is there like some domain or some tool out there which we need to put on the landscape but we will dig into this a little bit later we are also collecting best practices for kubernetes obviously because kubernetes is this main source this main project where a lot of other projects are based on so I think influencing how kubernetes best practices are is this one of our main main goals and we are collecting ideas and we are in the process of writing a white paper which we I mean I don't want to give a date but maybe end of this year this will take a lot of time because we will also want to get it right and we also want to have enough discussion in review time and we also kick kick started or started the brainstorming of a maturity model so you might be aware the CNCF has a maturity model for a CNCF maturity model and it does not mention any sustainability related things yet but it should so we need to we need to expand expand on that or maybe also define our own maturity model we are in the brainstorming phase so anything probably can happen and as we already said we are collaborating with other organizations and giving talks or just helping fellow contributors to raise awareness about this topic and and so on so if you if you want for example propose some I don't know if you have like some idea some blog post idea I don't know you want to as sneaky for example in the tag does make sustainability with GitOps this is a great place also in the tag to just bring up your ideas and we discussed it maybe some of the core maintainers or core folks at the tag want to guide or want to lift up this project that's a great place so feel free to open an issue so at last year's coupon we had put into market the survey that we had come up with just to get an initial understanding of where folks are with in their sustainability journey and and how it's impacted in their day to day so we had 49 responses and the just to be transparent the survey was in market for about five weeks and right here you do see 67 percent coming from Europe and 24 percent coming from North America one of the things that is to be mindful with this survey is it was a good starting place and is a good starting place we will be doing more surveys so that we can have a larger statistical reference point so I wouldn't necessarily take this is that Europe is more not just because I'm from the States but that Europe is more focused but there are more regulations coming out of the EU and so that's where I think you're going to see I think next year we'll definitely see more coming from North America especially being that they're globally globally transferred companies but you know we here we have the industries that we were able to to obviously talk to software technology as the number one we had had talked to but in financial services and consulting showing high numbers is what are high numbers for our for our statistics here so next slide please one of the questions that was key was around how is this affecting your system architecture and so you know from this I think it's interesting that you know obviously focusing on the software best practices is is very high but then also the other piece is that just not even being considered is is still pretty high as well and so you know figuring out how we can get this on even more on folks I guess day today day today that they can be able to understand how this can impact their business and not just from a business standpoint but also just from your today day today and your development did you have any other thoughts on this please no it's good I mean we have I think there's also on this slide right we have larger report a lot of more data to it but as you can see already on the on the first slide on the survey we just have like 49 responses so for us this is not probably not enough data to really gauge like where we are but I think it's like a first indication maybe also something that we could quickly put together by founding also the the tag in fall and so a survey you can you can throw it together and just go out very quickly but probably more surveys in the future would be would be helpful right so moving a little bit into the direction of the landscape so I think one thing which is very interesting to consider or to understand is there's a lot of like passive things which we already do which is very nice for the environment so to say so if you think about I don't know how we deployed 20 years ago software we didn't have so much containers or there weren't no any containers and virtualization and so on so all these passive strategies and technology which improve the utilization also are good for the environment because you are getting more out of the resources which you put in but the difference is between active and passive that you don't really put the environment into the driving seat so we don't we didn't develop containers because we are concerned about sustainability we develop containers because something else maybe performance blah blah blah and so on all these other reasons and the active measures right now this is also what we put in the landscape are they are developing towards sustainability they are having new features put in into their software because they are concerned about sustainability so just something to consider on your side to keep in mind right so this is a mind map about the landscape like a very rough overview we also have a link later in the slides to the entire document which is very long but as I said earlier this is like a 0.1 version so probably there's a lot of things missing I was talking to someone earlier about networking for example and be this is not really represented right now in the landscape but it should so this there's some some blank spots definitely so we need to work on that this is for now what we have and as soon as we are get more comfortable maybe a couple of more versions then we will also push it out maybe as a general overview of the sustainability so but as you can already see down there there's data centers listed so even if the cncf does not really work with hardware directly so to say we are more focused on the software side and things data centers are obviously so crucial to sustainability because I mean this is where your software runs right so this is where your energy is consumed at the end where your IT resources are are at so even if the cncf maybe does not really work directly like how to manage your data center how to design your data center we have this on the map we don't propose standards for indistruction but but it's still relevant for us I think for us the focus on the tooling side infrastructure tooling observability tooling and methodologies is a little bit heavier so yesterday for example if you joined the keynotes we had a keynote about keda which falls under scaling so which is very nice to see that also microsoft and some other big companies are now pushing their open source tools into this direction and right so I think observability right now is one of the hotter topics because without observability you cannot take any measures you need to be aware like how does your data look like it's like how much energy do you consume right now without this data without this observability you cannot really influence influence anything else um so there's that and maybe one thing for the methodologies so we already mentioned the green software foundation so there are some other foundations out there not just the green software foundation who are working on methodologies so we don't need to reinvent the wheel everywhere we just need maybe to like put the cloud native flavor onto it or maybe I don't know put it into a different kind of light so we will collaborate or we are already collaborating with these foundations to don't do like duplicate the work right and two tools which I think are very interesting maybe you already heard of it if you're interested in this space and yesterday and who I mean talked about Kepler a very interesting project for Kubernetes to measure the energy consumption and I think also carbon emissions and they have some very cool like custom tools you can then put it together in multiple different ways and have also a model server so you can train your own models to get the best assumptions for your energy energy consumption and carbon emissions so I think this is very cool and then there's also another project Scaffandra which is French and I think I'm getting better at pronouncing it but it's similar it's also observability so you can deploy it not just in Kubernetes but it's also on bare metal to just get the data and expose it as open telemetry metrics which you can consume from Prometheus and if you're interested there is the creator of Scaffandra on the 3rd of May so in our regular tag meeting he will just show us the project give some more technical depth to it so we have like more room also for this tool and so we from the tag also know in detail how like maybe what does he need where are the bottlenecks how does it work blah blah blah and so on so you can if you're interested join the tag meeting ask any questions to the creator directly or afterwards drop a message in Slack and right as I said this is a 0.1 something is missing you can open up a PR we would really appreciate it because this is a community driven group we do this next to for me next to studying next to work next to everything so we need all hands possible feel free to don't be intimidated just open a PR or an issue or drop by we're a friendly friendly environment so there's that and that's actually already it we have I think a little bit of time also for questions so join the tag efforts we have a slack slack channel which is very important if you want to get involved and want to check what is the latest things happening there's also the GitHub repository which you find all this information the landscape document the surveys everything else and we also have a website which is tag and sustainability.cncf.io which you can also check out if you like it'll also include the actual zoom to the meeting so I think that might be a part of the qr code but I just wanted to let you know it's it definitely isn't good yeah we meet every two weeks and after the this conference we will also have like a like a special special meeting just to introduce the tag and more then we have like an hour it's a little bit more time if somebody has questions how to get started so we will push notifications into the slack channel if you want to join and yeah thank you for for being here I hope it was interesting and we have we have time for questions. Thanks Leo the the green I don't know if this is a stupid question but I'm going to give you a shot and answer stupid questions. The green software foundation is also under the linux foundation if I'm not mistaken as is the cncf is that right the green software foundation separate I think yeah green software is created by Microsoft so it's separate from no I mean the green software foundation I believe it's separate I think is it no also a normal organization with Microsoft so I don't believe it's part of the LF oh okay I see it is okay it is I'm getting confirmation it is it is Microsoft okay okay sorry I was just like my question was going to be if you have any connection with them or if you're working with them so um we have quite a good connection I would say because we're also um Marlo who is also one of the co-chairs um a colleague colleague of hers basically the the the head of the green software foundation so we have from the business sides because they are colleagues quite a good connection and also we are working on the maturity model for example together because they are driving something in the similar direction and so in terms of sustainability I think a lot of efforts from the green software foundation overlap with our efforts so it would be not wise to not collaborate with them and we already have quite a good like communication channel I would say but as I as we mentioned we are like half a year old so so to say so there's like some some things um some um some um time to settle and to I don't know get to know the folks and everything so um with time this collaboration will be stronger but there's already um it's already happening so I think there was another question thank you uh first of all the report about the landscape you share that qr code before this slide it gave me 404 so yeah comment that for me was a 404 but this was a 404 yeah and the second question you mentioned about working not being part of the landscape and I would say that for obvious reasons it should be there but can you explain more on that like why should what should it be there so um could you maybe repeat the question I don't think so in the landscape in the intact landscape uh that was in the part of the component was scale scalability um yeah scalability or other uh networking was not there I'm just like it's not here but it should be here I I think is right it should be there but why yeah because we we are limited on time and now cubecon is happening and we want to push something out and um but we we said we are not we want to show you um the state which we are at right now and we know there are some some gaps um but right now we didn't have like someone very invested into network at our group um but I know a lot of folks who are so it just needs a little bit more time to get it right so um that that's why it's not listed because it's not mentioned right now explicitly in the landscape document but yeah yeah and that's where your contributions will be very valuable and welcome maybe one just one last remark I just joined the cncf tag channel uh where should I where could I get like an invite for the meeting to the tag meeting that's a good question so um on the github repository there's a how to reach out or contact um section so you can you can check it there or if you are in the slack channel there are bookmarks bookmarks to the meeting notes everything is in general everything is public so you can reach it um so there's like different different options also on the tag website so either way you should stumble across this link and you have access to previous meetings as well not just the notes but the videos and recordings of them yeah okay thank you um I think I remember you saying you would work with the cncf projects do you have any idea how that working together how the collaboration could look like thank you yeah so um right now for example the falco project reached out to us and they asked us how can we measure from release to release how our energy consumption for example is going up going down how does it like evolve over time they want to know our features which we are building our enhancement and so on how does it reflect and I think this is like an awesome opportunity for us also to get in contact like how can we maybe define have like maybe pipeline set up or something like this um how the um the sustainability maturity of projects develop over time so there's for example a standard sci standard from the green software foundation which we are thinking about applying but as this is like this is like in the in the future we are planning to start the discussion with falco after after kubecon so I think this is maybe some interesting reporting on our side maybe next kubecon um but we are we are in in in contact and we want to try out first like which standards because they're like some in research papers but also from foundations they propose like different kinds of strategies how to um get the sustainability how to calculate the sustainability of projects and we want to try it out um because um it's it's like a green field project for us and just to tag on to that just like um leo had mentioned earlier we are working with the um we have liaisons that are part of the good ops SIG as well and so we they have an environmental um sustainability working group within that so there are liaisons to make sure that they're coming back and and sharing what's happening in there so where there's um synergy uh synergy there as well the collaboration and I had a question do you know already the the other projects in cncf space if they are usable like keep green or open cost so what do you think about them because this would be for me the natural path to go over the costs and so right so um kube um kube green we had a presentation from kube green I think a couple of I don't know a month ago or so so we are in contact also with those projects so we are reaching out to um the landscape so some some projects which we find very interesting and just getting to know also the creators and see where they are and so on and um right so you mentioned cost and and probably then also phenox and everything this direction so I think right now this is like our best best um way to calculate your energy consumption or carbon emissions if you don't have the apis from the clock provider because right now they don't build the apis for us to get the real data so we can only work with what we have and we have uh cost and this is uh the best correlation um so I think there's definitely an opportunity to also work with these foundations um together and to see how can we best get this calculation or this correlation um right but in the long run I think we need to get the club providers and data center providers into a direction that they expose us the data we need transparency because just with cost we can never we can never get get there where we need need to be so it's it's it's just like halfway it's like a compromise and I think we need to need to push um and I think some club providers are doing already a good job and as we also heard and as we know for example in some other areas they are investing in this direction so I think in the future we will have hopefully some apis which we can consume directly but in the meantime we can use cost but but it would be easier than CNCF is already using these products to report about their climate I mean every every project can can can evolve into maybe also another direction that's that's that's also good so I mean um if if I think there's like a like a good opportunity for finnobs tools into developing also in the sustainability area I think I think so yeah um so I mean we are the last the last persons who would keep them down so this is like would be awesome if they're doing that so if you want to mention right awesome yeah you are mentioning the transparency around the the club providers Google is now G8 the carbon footprint AWS is talking about it for a few years now do you talk with them on these topics because you you mentioned that traceability is the key on this matter and as we mainly consume club providers right now you have some insight from from what they do and do you just keep it on the radar just to to know everything that's going on with that so we have connections to these club providers and so everybody of us already has like some like personal contacts with some of them but we also from the CNCF side have contacts to the club provider so um as a tag we will go over the CNCF and have the CNCF connections kind of reach out and just brainstorm how can we establish standards in the space and so on and I think the CNCF is in a good spot for that to have like a neutral ground for this discussion to have also standards across club providers and to push into this direction um but yeah we already have contacts and we um know more or less what is going on we are not working for Google or I'm not so I don't know exactly details but um I'm I'm I appreciate that they are investing a lot of manpower and woman power and every power they have into this direction so um yeah yeah just tagging on to that so there are public data sets that are provided by the cloud um providers um and that is something that we would consider and then there's also other projects within um the LF that or Linux foundation such as LF Energy that we'll be collaborating with and getting more data from as well um and to the gentleman talking about open costs we are actually having her I don't I think it was Max and I um Max is a uh the co-chair um for the tag we had a conversation with him yesterday or Monday whatever day um about um oh no it wasn't was it you and I yeah yeah um so um sorry about that we will um be working with them as well but again it's all about just you know really right now what we need is we need more contributors and um and definitely asking these questions are important of us just to keep us honest and thinking about um other parts of that we're not addressing and would like there's a question I don't know um quick question so um I get it's early days lots of things still to cover um just to give me a favor of kind of how early days what sort of things on the agenda for the next meeting if that would give me a okay so so the meeting agenda is is public so you can check it out so I I mentioned a scafandre demo is on the agenda I also mentioned that we have like a special meeting so the special meeting um we we plan to host this after every like bigger conference so because we expect a lot of new faces and we want to have like enough time for everybody um so if you join this meeting we will just go over what is the tag um why you hear what do you um like to contribute on where can you help um us where can we help you and so on and yeah and I would also say that um we have a lot of content coming out of the tag so the obviously the landscape we have um a proposal for a checklist of best practices um and then also a slew of blog posts like uh Leo was mentioning so um definitely early days but not um not incubating any more questions this might be our last question yeah just a short question um how are you going to tackle greenwashing and everything because it's quite a big platform uh I think many companies are more looking to appear green and in some cases might be tricky too yeah so the greenwashing discussion we have it every now and then so this is like something we cannot I mean we we don't want to get rid of it um but this is like obviously something which is happening in the industry and we don't want to be like we don't want to um like um give like room for greenwashing so um so we don't have I would say also there's not greenwashing is tricky because there's not a defined definition there's a perception and there's a subjectivity around it um but I think through regulation um that's going to help with it as well um and you're going to see that a lot especially in the financial services industry there's already been um plenty of fines lended towards um the ESG disclosures and um greenwashing associated with them but really at this point the tag is not necessarily going to approach greenwashing because of the sensitivity of the topic really and we want to make sure that people are coming in helping good question right I think that's that was last question but we will probably hang out a little bit longer before the in the hallway there so if you have any questions feel free to stop by and otherwise thanks for for coming by sipping by