 Hello and welcome to today's webcast empathy the final frontier of leadership today We're joined by Jennifer from integrity and values, and we're going to uncover a topic that has reveled many of us in the past No doubt. How are you today Jennifer? I'm fabulous, and I'm so happy Now we have so many people registered for today's event and through the registration process We ask people what they would like to find out more or why they're actually joining and Everyone has the same idea and I think for many of us in the workplace for a certain amount of years as we move into more Leadership roles there seems to be a lot of discussion around empathy or lack of what are your thoughts on that? Well, we're accused of a lack of empathy when we don't agree with people Yes, it's an amazing thing. Yes, and let's talk about that. Yeah, like that's really getting to the meat of What does it really mean to be empathetic great? And I think the biggest question is what is the difference between empathy and sympathy? And I think if you look up in the dictionary, you'll see there's not actually a big difference So let's discuss what the actual difference is okay, so There was a quote that I gave you from yes Yes, that's correct So before we get into this many of you know Harper Lee's classic novel to kill a mockingbird and one line just really jumps out at people and I think it is you never really Understand another person until you consider things from his point of view until you climb inside his skin and walk around it So what does that got to do with empathy? Empathy is your capacity to get inside someone else's skin and walk around inside their body bag Okay And see the world through their eyes and Get it. Yep, like truly get it and Have them understand that you got it And there's a huge difference and you asked me before the difference between empathy and sympathy yes, and there's a great quote by from Albert Einstein that I love and he says a Question that sometimes drives me hazy and I or others crazy When we confuse empathy and sympathy I Personally become hazy and crazy because I am Sinking into someone's sob story. Yep, and I have no capacity in that moment to support them Okay, so what's an example of you're in the workplace? What's an example of something happening? What how does someone give sympathy and how does someone give empathy? Okay? So some people have tragic things happen in their life and some people have tragic things that are not really tragic Yeah, and by the time you finish listening to their story. It's pretty tragic. Yes, and They expect you to buy that story so the difference between empathy and sympathy the Sympathizer or the sympathy the person who's looking for the sympathy sells you on their sob story Mm-hmm, and They remain a victim to their circumstances. Okay Constantly have you ever had that experience where someone's life is always a soap opera? Yeah, and you're expected to feel sorry for them. Let's see what happens next in this soap opera Yes, and when you don't feel sorry for them, they get angry. Yeah, and they blame you and you're a nasty pasty Yes, of course you are. Yes Empathy on the other hand releases us both from the guilt of the victim status that comes with the sympathizing and Gives us a freedom to create a future. Mm-hmm. Wouldn't that be in my inner light? Really? Isn't that what leadership is all about? We're here to support people To make good choices for their life and to create a future for themselves when we do that We are free from the story. Yes, and they Are free to create a future. Okay, so say for an example You were my manager or leader in a situation and I came up to you one day and I said, you know what Jen? I really can't get this project finished I've been working really hard and this happened in my life that my dog died and then my dad went to hospital and everything's really happened I'm really really sorry, but I won't be able to meet the deadline. What would a sympathetic person's response be? Oh, you poor darling. Yeah, you know and and how's your dad? you know really and You know I understand and I'll do it for you. Okay, that's the sympathizer. What about the empathizer? Empathizer says, okay So can we create a strategy on what you can do? Can you let me know what you can do and what you can't do and then we'll look at Everyone else's workload and we can decide who can pick up different pieces But could you take responsibility? So the empathizer has you be what? Responsible for Still getting the project done. It doesn't mean you have to do it. Okay. I like to for those of you watching live We do actually have the option for you to ask questions and I've got an iPad here So if anyone's been in a similar situation To that because I'm sure many of us have please feel free to type in questions or any other questions that you may have throughout The event please type them through and we'll get to them So I think now we've established a clear difference between a sympathizer and an empathizer So how does accountability play into this because I think as a leader another difficult thing is to hold people accountable for their actions and I'm guessing this really comes into play so Remember the scenario you just played to me So the sympathizer doesn't hold you accountable for still producing the result that you said you were going to produce The empathizer on the other hand says no, I understand it's tough I get this isn't easy and we are going to figure out together how you're going to still get the job done and Deal with your personal circumstances So what happens is is the sympathizer rescues you From your circumstances the empathizer has you deal with your circumstances and gives you the tools that in the future when something like this happens with you're able to deal Yeah, you're able to say look this is happening and This is what I've done to correct it And because I think you know we talk about the final frontier of leadership and the fact that when it comes to these types of Skills many people just I think assume that empathy is sympathy and they're so closely related So, you know as a leader I need to be nice to the people I'm guiding whereas in fact you could be doing them Can you yeah, it's for the detriment. I love the word you just used the sympathizer is nice The nice guy nice guy the guy that'll come along and fix it all up for you and have you not be committed to the outcome that you said you'd do and Then fixes it. So I have an acronym for nice. Do you want it? Yes? I made this up about 22 years ago, and I love it I'm looking forward to hearing all right. So in stands for nothing. Mm-hmm. I Stands for in me C stands for cares and E stands for enough So nothing in me cares enough to tell you the truth and hold you Accountable, okay, so don't be nice Empathizes are not nice people. They're people that are supportive and they're not interested in helping you either Sounds a bit harsh So let's just fast-forward a bit and talk about the working world because we're all in jobs where we need to empathize and There are people out there who maybe have been told in the past that they may lack a certain amount of empathy So how does this work in the working world? Do people understand the difference? Yeah? No, no no That's why people think that being nice Hmm is empathy. No, it's sympathy. Yes sympathy keeps the person being a victim to their circumstances So if we drill into you know, my father's sick, you know, the dog ate my lunch The dog died, you know and my car broke down. Yeah Now the sympathizer sells you on that story Yeah, and you buy it. Yes, so I buy oh, you're so poor dear. So let me get you a new car Oh, let me see if the company could Rent a car for you. Mm-hmm. So I'm solving your problem. Yes, that's sympathy Empathy is I'm going to give you the space to be free and to think about what it's going to take so there's and It allows you to produce results then. Yes So what sort of results can we see from people in the workplace who do become more empathetic as opposed to Sympathetic what sort of results then what what happens within a workplace? So imagine that scenario You know my father's in hospital the dog died my car's broken down, etc Mm-hmm, and you've got a project. Yeah, that you're supposed to complete That's a result that you still need and you're responsible for yes so the language of empathy Allows me now to hold you up against how are you going to solve the problem? Not how am I going to fix it for you? So the sympathiser fixes it for you the Empathisers hold you against the problem and say okay, I get it. I'm willing to support you Yes, how can I support you not? How can I do it for you? Is there a time and a place though to be sympathetic as opposed to empathetic in different situations? Mm-hmm No, no, how about this? You know when someone sympathisers with you? How do you feel at the end of the conversation? It does feel a bit like pity. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so you're helpless. Are you? Are you helpless? So I'm not interested in helping anybody and people go that's a bit tough Well, it is so if I come to you and I say anyone in the audience. I want to help you Now it doesn't mean that you're unkind Hmm. It just means if I want to help you, what does it make you? Helpless. Helpless So how does that go then? I think I'm starting to get my head around this. Is it more about the language than of empathy? So using words help rather than support. So like you said, it's not that you're being unkind You may want to help this person But the language that you use is going to play a big part in the outcome. The language that you use will totally Change the outcome. If I say to you in the audience, I want to help you. It immediately puts you at less than me That's that's a good point And it makes you helpless and then I get to feel really important Yeah Because I helped you and then I put guilt on you. You should be grateful to that I did So how do we detach from that? So when you're empathetic, you are committed to an outcome. I am not attached to you Having to do it my way. Yeah So if we can get the difference between Attachment and commitment If I'm attached to you helping you and keeping you helpless and having you be Dependent on me then I get to feel really important Hmm, and you're not really doing yourself any favours as a leader than are you? Well as a leader You want to notice how much work other people's work is on your desk It's a pretty good indicator that you're sympathetic and not empathetic That's a visual representation, isn't it? Do you end up with other people's projects on your desk? Hmm, and just on that in terms of you know finding out how you can measure this How do you measure empathy? Is it a fact of going through? Okay the last week I had this many conversations with people and I can see where I was empathetic or sympathetic Is there a tool that we can use to actually measure and then hopefully improve on okay? Well, we do measure it in our integrity and values profile so we can give you on a scale of Zero to ten how empathetic you are the lower your score the more sympathetic you are and the higher your score The more empathetic you are and in the research project that we did Empathy is definitely one of the most important Scores, it's the first thing I look at I look at responsibility Empathy those are two things that I look at if someone is responsible Highly likely they'll be highly empathetic If they're less responsible, then they'll be less empathetic and more sympathetic What's sort of a link is there then in the workplace between vulnerability and empathy if any For some of us. I think we are a bit afraid as we move into leadership roles that we will become too vulnerable And we might not necessarily have the right skill set to actually move forward So is there a link between both of those traits? I think so Consider this when we're empathetic We Understand that it's hard over there that there's something going on for someone and we can hear Mm-hmm That it's tough. Yes, we walk around in their skin We get it and then we ask what are you going to do about that? Yes, exactly now if You lack vulnerability that is the capacity you have To share part of yourself when it was tough Mm-hmm. I can remember years ago a leader of mine I had just had this is when I was very young I had just had a break up in a I was going to get married the guy doesn't marry me I've got this job Etc. And there was this man. I'll never forget him. I don't even remember his name He was one of the managers in the business and all he said to me Jennifer You can do something with what has just happened to you You can walk around and get a bunch of sympathy and have everyone feel sorry for you or you can take what just happened to you and Use it to get muscle around being powerful and Moving on with your life and that's something you remembered and that will take courage You're going to wear your heart on your sleeve and know in the workplace people will say things that will hurt And you will learn and you will grow from it and when someone else behaves like that around you You can empathetically understand them. So Everyone has stories about their lives and we sell people on the stories and then we get agreement That that's what so and as soon as we get agreement Sarah well lost Yeah, because there's no one then to say what are you going to do about that Sarah? How are you going to make a difference there? So empathy takes on another's perspective and Brings vulnerability is I understand this is tough. I Haven't been in exactly the same position I've been somewhere like it. Yeah, and what are you going to do about it? Okay, and I think that that's really Effective especially as a leader, but there are some people in the workplace that are a little bit difficult more difficult to manage or lead And Bernice has just asked and something I'm interested in as well So do you have two or three tips to manage that long long-term victim in the workplace? So you can be empathetic as much as you like but there are some people out there who just like playing the victim Isn't it? Well I'm going to say something now that could upset a lot of people. Okay, that's all right It's a bit controversial this So and I got this from a guy called Jim Edwards and you know like I never heard him speak once So this is the one line I took away and it changed how I viewed victims You're only a victim once in your life. He said, okay every other time you're a willing participant I'm just trying to think of a thing about it. Yeah So something happens no matter what it is it happened in the way in the past But we keep regurgitating it into the present moment and reliving it and creating it as the future in which we live Now if you truly care about people and want to be supportive you sit down and you have a conversation with them I understand things are tough. I understand that life is difficult. I Want to know what do I need to do to support you that this conversation stops? Now here's the kicker ask for permission to hold them accountable You see No one really likes being a victim Not really So ask them just say I bet you so I enroll you in this I sell you on this idea I bet you you're sick of this So and they go, oh, yeah, you are I am Good So now what I want you to do yep is I want you to tell me how I can Interrupt this thing you're sick of and they go ne ne ne ne ne you go great Do I have permission to do that? That's called coaching as a leader Mentoring as a leader Now you can take it a step further you can say so what am I allowed to say to you when you're doing your thing? And they'll make it up for you. They'll say well you could put your hand up like this. Yep Now I can remember one of my teams saying to me you can say enough now Really, so they're actually giving you they give you something so as leaders you want to look for empowering them rather than Them giving you a stick to beat them with because that's what the sympathizer does the Empathizer says please support me and here is a way that you can do it So sell them on I can support you. Tell me how Now most people who are really victims don't know how to get out of their Thing yeah, so you give them so tell me what a what's a little thing? I could do that could interrupt the pattern because remember the sympathizer that's that stays in the victim role Desperately wants to get out of it So as a leader support them yeah, give them something and say this is what we can do What do you think yeah? And I guess like you said that's empowering them as well Which is something that you know they might be in this situation in 20 years down the track and they will remember you for being That leader um while we're in the workplace, and we've had a few comments come through I just want to touch on the fact um is The issue that a lot of people within your workplace, so we're in this Webcast now, and we understand the difference between sympathy and empathy if we then go back into our everyday roles, and we then act empathetic and The rest of our workplace doesn't know the difference between empathy and sympathy. Can we just come across as rude? Well, you know people like we help that is it an organizational wide thing that needs to be and the reason Why I say is we've got Sanjay, you know What's the risk of your direct reports thinking that you don't care at all if that's the case if they don't necessarily know the difference? between sympathy and empathy I'm just Thinking do you know what I mean there could be quite a lot about educating them Yeah Is there a way is it is it common within all organizations to actually go and educate your entire staff on the difference? So I wouldn't the behavior within the workplace is accepted by everyone So imagine having a workplace where people understood when someone was playing the sympathy card wouldn't that be amazing wouldn't that be amazing and Could you make light of it and fun and say hmm? Is that a sympathy card? You're just playing on me. Okay? That's interesting and then you look at them and you go look I tell you what I can do I feel sorry for you for ten seconds. How about that and then afterwards? Let's figure out how we can support you. Okay, so you can make it light and engaging Or you can make them wrong and shame them. Don't do that Don't make people wrong and don't shame them Because the victim is shamed enough Yeah, if they are victims to their circumstances Then you give them away that you support them lift them up Empower them to move forward Now here's a really good way to stop people playing the sympathy card in the workplace figure out what Are your values in your business? What is the vision of your organization? sympathizers look for permission to break the value code and to not work for the vision of the organization The empathizer says so How is your behavior? forwarding our values and fulfilling on our vision That's actually quite insightful, right? So we ask our people three questions every day. Mm-hmm. Okay Three questions. What did I do in yesterday that Upheld the values of integrity and values and I score myself on a scale of one to ten. Yep Every day. So it's self-registration. Yep. Yeah What did I do to change the game? Mm-hmm for integrity and values and I choose one personal thing that I'm working on How do I rate myself on the personal issue that I'm wanting to grow for myself? Mm-hmm, and it could be anything. Yeah, it could be physical fitness. It could be my diet. It could be Ringing my family. It's about it could be anything anything anything you rate yourself now It's not an opportunity if you score less than ten which I do daily So think about this I have a really good story. Do you want to tell you want to buy my story? I do like stories Do I story so in 2003 I had a motorbike accident? Mm-hmm, and I split my pelvis back in front Oh ruptured all the ligaments off my pelvic floor Broke my leg ruptured every ligament in my knee Snap my bicep muscle and ripped all the all the ligaments off my I haven't done to have a lot of sympathy for you Yeah, so they told me that if I didn't Do exercise now? I love my work. Hmm. This this conversation of empathy and leadership It's what I thrive on They told me if you don't get physical You will never walk again. Wow, so it took me seven months to learn to walk Mm-hmm, and you know that thing with Superman where you saw the guy pulling himself on to help. Yeah Yeah, they told me that if I couldn't do ten meters of that that I couldn't go home And and I did wow I pulled myself and then they said so you'll probably always walk with a walking stick So you're feeling really sorry for me now. I'm feeling very sorry for you So I can still remember the day I gave up my walking stick and I only did it because I Gave someone permission to hold me accountable. I Got an exercise physiologist that I saw three or four times a week I had to learn to put my knee over my In on my not my big toe my other toe. I had a learn to walk again. So walking still an issue for me I have to think about walking Anyway, he said to me if you can learn to do this it will make a huge difference and I learned to walk again and like the year before last I ran to the top of cosy osco Oh, wow, what a tremendous achievement and I can story was the 10th anniversary I was so excited and I took a girlfriend of mine who was a cancer survivor and Her mother who only had one lung and she was 70 odd and we went to the top It was hard work 40 not wins. So we actually dragged herself to the top and then the mountain blew us off Yeah, but it was fabulous so Stop selling your story. I Refuse to accept the sympathy that people have rather. I'd say to you Sarah Ask me did I do my exercise yesterday and then ask me so what are you going to do about that if I didn't And this is into how to increase your empathy, right? It's the number one You're saying stop selling me stories. Stop selling the story in the workplace people sell stories Right, they tell you about how busy they are. Well, guess what? So is everybody else. Yes So is everybody else? How come some people can get more done than others because they stop selling their story? Stop selling the story if you're committed to something Then Stay with that get excited about what you're committed to and then ask people around you To hold you accountable Give them permission the more permission you give people now look by the way, do you think I like it when someone says no? I want them to say yes to me Yeah, everything should be yes, and you should feel sorry for me, and I have a very sad story Yeah, everyone's got a story, right? You know, it's like the person who's always late for work Mm-hmm. We buy the story of the bus was late that this was happening that that was happening really No, get up earlier. Mm-hmm So if you're empathetic, you don't buy the story. You simply say so I'm not going to set your alarm for you. Yes You set your alarm and you be on time Have you ever noticed that if you're going on holidays This is a good one. I used in the workplace once when you're you know how your people are going on holidays Yes, and they can get ten times more work done the week before they go on holidays And they never miss the airplane. No funny that so Be on time for work and get the job done Sounds pretty simple doesn't it? Now looking on the second point here, so get clear about what you are actually committed to. Yeah How can we elaborate on that one? So When someone comes and works at your workplace They buy into the vision and values of Redback Conferencing. Yes, they buy it. They say this is what we're about It's so exciting. This is what we value and they go. Yeah And then six months into the job, they're dragging their feet around they're late and everything else has gone down It would be really good to ask people what's the personal vision that you have for your life and Then how does that link or align with Redback's vision? What are your personal values for your life? How does that align with Redback's values and where is there a misalignment and then say to them? Empathetically I Understand that there's some misalignment here. Is this the right place for you to work? You know, I think that people don't get that if that isn't important to them. They won't do good work. Yes Yeah, so one of the values of integrity and values is team The space to go beyond our wildest dreams Now imagine working in a place that is committed to go beyond our wildest dreams When someone is not acting like they're going beyond their wildest dreams What could you now say to them and It's empathetically Hey, what's going on that this isn't alive and real and exciting for you Now you can hold them up against that. Yes and get permission To give them that kind of feedback the problem is whenever I ask people that Well, yeah, that's the thing. I think we're just so caught up in Everything and ourselves that we don't really yeah, I think we're afraid of getting close to people See sympathy keeps you away from me keeps me away from you Empathy brings me closer to you. Yeah, that's a good point. It has me get in your world Yeah, so like we said at the beginning in your skin and walking in your shoes So empathy as a leader allows me to know what are your personal dream goals and aspirations and How are we going to use that to hold you accountable to what's possible in the world Definitely now just talking about accountability point number three give others permission to hold you accountable And we love the questions coming in guys So keep them coming and there's also a survey on the tab next to the PowerPoint presentation So please complete that as well. But as we go into the third Point here in terms of how you can increase your empathy. How do we give others permission to hold us accountable? Tell them what your goal is. Well, that sounds simple enough. Why aren't we all doing it then Jen? Exactly? um, I think that what people do is we're afraid to put ourselves out there and Say something about what we dream about Yes Because if what happens if we fail? Yeah Whereas Sympathy is I get to feel sorry for you because you failed rather empathy is Hey, I get you didn't quite hit the mark. Yeah, so what are you going to do next time? Okay, yeah and then you invite someone to say okay, so what did you miss? And how will you make sure that doesn't happen next time? So you really are facilitating this two-way communication with people aren't you as leaders? That's all we're doing. Yes So someone comes to you they fail to produce the result that you wanted. Yeah Just got another question coming through now This is more on the other side, which is something that we haven't really touched on so Recent events have left me in victim mode But generating someone to call me to account. How do you find these people in a small workplace? Yeah so The number you know like first of all as a leader when you're the CEO It's a lonely place to sit. Yeah, it's very lonely as a CEO. It's lonely So I have a coach. I have someone that I can just ring up and say I'm in a mess. Yeah, and They have Permission to say so what are you going to do about that? Mm-hmm now Circumstances can leave us in a victim's state Who's responsible for taking you out of a victim's state? The first person you need to stop selling the story to is yourself Because let me tell you something I can sell the story of my Circumstances over and over and I'm really good at it and everybody As your go-to story go and tell the story once and Then Say to the person I want to get over this Imagine saying I want to get over this now. You know sometimes it takes a while Because we're really hurt Yeah, or we've been shamed or we feel ashamed. Yes Those are valid Experiences if we're going to hold people accountable or move into the empathy stakes You tell the story you feel heard and then you say Please don't let me tell this story again Without how am I going to move forward? That's a good point because I think sometimes we get so caught up in being the empathiser But once again, it's about putting yourself into the victim's shoes But as a victim, you know, many of us have played the victim before and it's about Understanding how can we be on that other side and what can we do to help other people empathize with us? Because it is a two-way street, right? Absolutely Think about The role what happens when we seek sympathy Is we maintain our victim status And we enroll or we sell people On our story And we keep selling it Over and over and over again. Yes And that story keeps us stuck We keep ourselves in that place It can't be a nice place, surely. Well, how about this? It's familiar Sometimes that overrides nice Absolutely. It's familiar And if you're getting sympathy from people on a regular basis, then why wouldn't you stay some people thrive on that? Don't they? Yes Well They don't thrive on it. They die inside of the story Because they're stuck inside of it I recently had an experience where someone told me a story that they have kept alive since they were eight years old And they were now 55 And it was something they just retold They retold the story This is what happened to me And isn't a sad life And my daddy didn't love me and maybe your daddy didn't love you. Okay? Who knows? Yeah You're 55 now You're not eight Take accountability Take responsibility For your own personal health and happiness Think about someone who maintains the victim status in the workplace Each time they don't fulfill on a project. They don't complete on the work. They're late They They see Gremlins in every hole in the business. Yeah As a leader gently Empathetically lovingly remember empathy is with feelings with pay thoughts I understand this is tough We are going to do this Yeah, definitely and give them just if you want to lead really well and you want people to do something different Don't give them the whole elephant to eat at once Just give them a shaving of the toenail And what about those um in workplaces these days who Are part of different generations and they're much more inclined to want to communicate Over social media rather than face to face. We've got a question from sanjay here So how do you demonstrate empathy to gen y who use more of social media to communicate Rather than face to face are they going to get the same? Is that going to have the same impact on them? Look social media has its place. This is going to be broadcast on social media And i'm hoping that some people are going to walk away from here with some tips and tools that will make a difference Yep, don't Use social media if you are gen y whoever generation To have your argument with yourself and enroll people or sell people on your story Rather use social media To tell the story of your victory over Something that has held you in place for years It's a great point and it's quite nice to end on. I feel like I keep saying the word nice now after your You're not nice anymore Okay, so that brings us to the end of the discussion now Final thoughts from you if you could tell everyone online what they should walk away with today What would be your final food for thought? I've sort of put you on the spot here, haven't I Look i've thought about this what I really like all of you to walk away with is start with yourself Stop selling your stories and stop buying other people's stories Get powerful in interrupting people's stories Excellent To get clear on what you're committed to what is it that you want? Then ask people to hold you accountable and give them permission to do it And don't try and eat the whole elephant Just a little bite at a time Start with a story that you have kept alive Ask someone to support you to stop the story And give them permission to hold you accountable Excellent. Thank you. Um, thank you. It's been a great 45 minutes I certainly have learned a lot and I bet everyone online has as well Um, I now think I don't actually like empathy, but we'll talk about that afterwards Um, and if you would like to get your empathy score, please feel free to contact jennifer our integrity and values And they'll be able to provide you with that. Um, also, please complete the survey We do value your feedback and if you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us directly at redback conferencing Or go over to jennifer at integrity and values. I'm sure you'll be very keen to answer any questions after this Excellent. You can send me an email at jennifer elliott at integrity and values.com I will answer your questions. Excellent. Um, very very thought provoking discussion So thank you so much for joining us and to everyone else out there We do hope you enjoy the rest of your day and we'll see you at the next redback business skills event. Bye for now