 Well, I guess I'll start. Good afternoon everyone. So my name is, pardon me, my name is Jeffrey Harris, better known in the broader preservation world by my nickname of free. And this is a networking coffee chat that conversation that we're going to be having. So, I instead of doing a broad based introduction we're going to introduce ourselves. I'm Jeffrey Harris. I'm an historian and historic preservation consultant based in Hinton, Virginia. And in a past life, I was the first director for diversity at the National Trust for Historic Preservation. It's wonderful always to be back and to see individuals whom I've known for a while and names that I recognize. And with that, I'm going to move things over to the next in line. Thank you. I guess I'm next. I'm Marta Martinez. I'm the, I'm an executive director of Rodad and Latina Arts. So I'm calling in from Rhode Island. And we were having an informal conversation earlier. I consider myself an accidental preservationist. I work in the cultural world. And so part of what I, you know, bring to the table is the, the respect and the acceptance of cultural preservation as an important way to look at preservation. Pass it on to Melissa. Thank you, Marta. I'm Melissa Jess. I am the senior manager of preservation projects for the African American Cultural Heritage Action Fund as the National Trust for Historic Preservation. I was sharing earlier that I'm about 20 years into this movement, starting in my hometown of Savannah, Georgia, working with grassroots colleagues, practitioners as well as elected officials to bring the message of preservation as a tool of uplift. And value building and celebration. So glad to be here with you. So I think it's my job now to kind of transition us into the first discussion of our, one of our kind of talking points today, which is around the term of Allied ship. We're in a very, very curious time as a society here and this particular term has been kind of thrown around as folks try to position themselves and figure out, you know, how do we bring about the change that, you know, we say we want in our society the improvement towards social equity and social justice that we want. And so the term is Allied ship. And so I'm going to be the busy body and ask the question, what does that mean. And it's not as if I can't Google right or go to Webster, but in my mind, when I think of Allied ship I think of someone or some entity that sees itself or him or herself or themselves outside of an effort, but wanting to bring some I guess some help or some positivity there, but I would love to hear you know what my colleagues have to say about this term that's all the buzz now. What does it, what does it mean to you all. Martin, if you'd like to start. Yeah, Allied ship for me is. Yeah, it's it's it's trying to, I sometimes find that it's a way for others to make up for their shortcomings at times, you know, trying to work with with people of color, for example, like in my place for not even sure why they're reaching out they're filling a mandate or a requirement within their institutions that they want to be allies. And, you know, not really sure and I find many institutions and individuals who reach out to me because they have to feel feel like they almost have to check put that check mark on there. And I see it the other way around. I reach out to people who are like myself, where we can lock arms and work together as allies to to to make change together, because we can't do things alone, and also to lock arms with with those. I'm sorry Marta, you're muted accidentally. Okay. Yeah, so so it not just locking arms with the people who are like us as as people of color but also those who reach out to us who are better also trying to understand and work with us so that we can all work together. But it is, it's an uphill battle I find that it's it's, I'm always going up the stairs and kind of sliding back down not really quite knowing where I'm going or why I'm going there or why I'm being pulled up. And I think for, for me, the term is is one that's a bit on the complicated side, or at least it's it's nuanced so that one can be an ally. As a professional, you know, in terms of a community that has reached out to us seeking help, and they need an ally to achieve an end. And also the idea of, you know, being involved in in say a project that is in a community that is not that is not mine, for example, and you know me wanting to show a sense of solidarity with others but also bringing the skill set that I have and bringing, you know, an offer for the possibility of someone to take advantage of if they so if they so chose to do so so for me it's it's it's it's always been a both and rather than an either or construct, you know, insider outsider I think we all can occupy those spaces, depending on the work that it is that we're doing in the position that we find ourselves in vis-a-vis our projects. I think that's fair. Given the position that you're in, sometimes you're an insider, sometimes you're an ally or someone who's trying to bring support resources, you know, to an effort, but I like the imagery from what Marta shared about locking arms. So, you know, as a movement, I think preservation definitely needs to focus more on solidarity, and not necessarily the positionality of allyship. So, being our accidental preservationist Marta, what has been some of your opportunities or experiences locking arms, you know, with your colleagues, you know, here in the preservation movement? Most of my experience has actually been in, you know, in the arts community because I spend a lot of time just explaining why I consider the arts as an important tool or the art how I approach preservation through the arts. Most of the artists just look at their trade, you know, they're a singer, a dancer, a cultural dancer, and they really don't understand that they're also preserving their culture. It's a way of you learn how to do a bomba and plena from Puerto Rico or you're looking to do traditional dances in a way that you bring to the table. It's a way of preserving culture. And so kind of locking arms with my fellow, you know, preserved artists and cultural organizations to understand that that's a cultural movement. You know, they are in the cultural world and that's kind of why that was the light bulb that came on for me when I first went to the, when I went to my first National Trust Conference. I was invited by someone who insisted I come and I thought it would be, and it was because I do oral, so I'm an oral historian as well. So collecting stories, you know, is a way of preserving culture. You preserve your language, you know, I collect them in Spanish, you preserve everything else. So I entered that way, but then also I realized that the arts is a way, doing art is a way of preserving your culture. So, so being, you know, locking arms with my fellow cultural preserved cultural artists and cultural organizations, but also bringing that to the table in the preservation world, you know, preservation professionals. I love that artist expression, you know, just expressing your experience and, and there's artistry in history in preserving history in the places and spaces where it happened. So, I definitely agree that that expression that opportunity is is what we need to explore I think when we're talking about engaging folks as well, you know, here's a chance for you to tell your story to help preserve your history by sharing your story. Yeah, and to respect also to respect the culture it's not just getting up on a stage and you know, dancing around there's a reason why there's a story behind the dances there's a story so it's a way of preserving. You're telling a story through the art so it's respecting that that it's not just calling. You know, what I get many calls from from organizations just wanting to bring fun and dance but there's a way to respect the culture is respected. Well, and, and I would add, you know, as as one of his trained in academic history. I showed up at the National Trust as an intern 20 years ago this year. What became relevant in my mind was the sense of sometimes feeling as though those of us who are within the broader preservation movement or enterprise can sometimes forget that it's the history that's brought us all here in the first place. Whether that's the history of from the artistic perspective history from the classic, you know, book learning perspective, it's the history that has driven that drives all it is that we do. And for us to then you know going back to this term of being better allies and showing a sense of respect. It's actually also I believe having a sense of respect for the history for the historical information. That's being presented before that's put in front of us, you know, and really being able to properly contextualize it, you know, to really embrace it and understand what it is that that we're engaged with. And when we don't know what's happening, being willing and open enough to ask to ask somebody, what's going on, and you know what is it. What is it that I can do better that I can learn more, you know, more effectively what it is that we're doing so that as we're saying, we're going to help you preserve X, you know, a particular site. You know, we also need to understand the culture that that site, you know, sits within we also need to understand the community that that culture has, you know, create. Does that make sense, so that for us to be better allies and in some ways better professionals and all that we do. It is, to me it goes back to having that respect for the history respect for the culture of the various work that you know within the various works that we do. That taps back to the point that Marta was making about, you know, some allies, you know, think, well I got to check a box or, you know, I'm feeling nudged by a little, you know, guilt or or that kind of thing, and just wanting to kind of get through it and, you know, not really taking the time to listen not really taking the time to develop that respect, or more importantly that level of understanding, so that you can move towards solidarity, move from the ally or outside their position into the movement into the effort through understanding through respect through compassion. And that kind of to your point Marta, not necessarily see it as something you have to do but sit with that discomfort in order to develop that compassion that's necessary to get to solidarity. What's your observations been, you know, when dealing with folks who, you know, just want to come in get it done so they can say they did it and feel better about themselves. Other than knowing that that's exactly how they feel that they just want to come in and get it done, other than that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that's that's the the uncomfortable part about it is that sometimes we just have to sit sit with it. You know, literally, you know, so who who are you saying is uncomfortable those who come with it or those of us who are being asked to join. I find myself being uncomfortable when I'm put in those positions because, you know, I'm to the point where it just it wears me out, you know, and I get so many calls and so many people reach out and, and I and I feel like it's not so much a responsibility but I just feel like yes they they. I should do this but it happens too often. And, and I get worn out so there's that uncomfortable feeling that I have is like okay. All right. Yeah, I guess I should do this. As a preservationist 20 years in and coming into situations where I am viewed as the outsider by others, you know, where I am viewed as the ally who's coming to bring resources or bring information, you know, to, to, you know, help those those neighbors who are facing this challenge, you know, oftentimes, I haven't had the luxury to be able to sit with, you know, our friends and neighbors who are working on the ground oftentimes in preservation. You're there at the last minute, you got to save a building, you got to, you know, document a history before it's lost and we don't have that that luxury of time to sit and be able to hear them and give voice or allow audience I should say for our neighbors our friends our colleagues, you know, who are really close to the history who've experienced the history who embody the history to express their experiences. We really don't have that luxury and I think it's really really necessary. And so it's great to be able to facilitate and to bring about those discussions that's why I'm so so proud and honored to be a part of the African American Cultural Heritage Action Fund, because it's not just about getting out the resources getting out the technical assistance but it's also about facilitating those discussions about why this history is important. How black history is American history and contributes in all the warts and things that come with that. You know, open to more and more opportunities just to sit in that discomfort, give that some time so that we can grow and go through it to the other side, if that makes sense, that might be going on a bit here but. Yeah, and I think that that almost like we were also talking about what is it what. How do we as work with the communities, you know how do we bring communities together and I find that as a community based organization it's my responsibility to try to rally the troops again lock arms. And the the people I work with are those people who are you know individuals in the again in the arts world in the cultural arts world who really don't understand and just work hard to empower them and to want and to really get them to have a light bulb moment and and realize that what they're doing is, you know they're preserving not not only a culture but I'm going to go back to a comment about. And we're always talking about saving buildings and forgetting that those buildings have stories behind them and that those buildings and the stories are really what build a community that's what what gives it its history if you don't listen to this, the stories before it's demolished after it's demolished a community. Sometimes I find that a community, you know, kind of fades, it fades away. What was once there is gone and and you forget that what what that building the significance of that building what it meant to someone. It was a grocery store. And it happened to be the only place that you can find a particular food when you first moved here whether you moved from the south, and you were looking for some, you know, southern food or, or if you move move move from another country it was a very important thing for you to walk in and find a shelf. And those are the kinds of stories I like to collect is that because it keeps the buildings alive that are long gone even though you can't find physical evidence which I have a hard time finding sometimes. They demolish neighborhoods or sections of neighborhoods and people just kind of move on you forget the lives that were lived there, the life so a lot of what I do is work in the neighborhoods and to try to get people in the present to really, you know, collect not just stories but objects and artifacts that we can bring to, you know, allies in the professional world and to help them understand this the story why that that particular area so important to a community. And that's part of the work I do with in building community networks. And that I love what you said, they're Marta because it always serves as a reminder to me to remind others that, yes, you know, we often deal with physical structures, but just because something is no longer there doesn't mean that the history is disappeared. There are still people who are, you know, who know that what happened in said place there are still people who remember. And, you know, that goes back to my original point about the idea of remembering that it's the history that brought us here in the first place. And so that I think there are too many instances, at least that I've seen, where within our profession, we get so wedded to the physical to the physical structure, and not just and not the history but you know just sort of can't you know how can we figure out a way so that you know it can be viable after we restored it. You know the things that we can do can get the credits here, you start thinking of all the of the pieces that one thinks about that isn't directly tied to the history of us of a place that you know you lose in my mind, why you were there in the first place, why somebody has invited you into a community space, and you know again more importantly if you're talking about spaces like so many of us who deal with, you know, with communities of color or LGBTQIA plus communities. You are talking about spaces, you're talking about places that no longer are there. In the LGBTQ example, a lot of those spaces are in neighborhoods that, you know, we're already on the margins, because that was a particularly marginalized community. So next thing you know you hear about the redevelopment coming through. And I'll give an example we all have lived in or have dealt with Washington DC. The entire sort of red light district of DC's LGBTQ community around where the baseball stadium, it's the national baseball scene and that's gone there's there was a whole history tied to the LGBTQ community of DC. That was there that is that is still relevant none of that stuff. None of that history is gone. Those are gone, but the history is still there people can still talk about I have heard stories about things that you know have gone on, you know I can recall my own, you know stories of going to tracks, you know, or, you know, see you know hanging out and, and you know meeting people. But I think we do tend to forget that just because a building is not there. That the history hasn't left, or just because a building is there that it isn't just about the economic aspects of their preservation effort that makes it relevant. You know, we tend to forget that and I think that as we, you know, continue talking about this idea of allyship, you know we're coming into a place. You know and talking about we can preserve this we can get that we can get you, you know this sort of, you know tax credit here. Remember, who it is we're dealing with who we're talking to, why are we, why are we in, you know, why are you why have you asked us to come in. You know the idea is to give respect for where we are. For me that's always my thought I need to respect where I am and I need to respect those who have been kind enough to ask me to come in. There's a wonderful manifesto that was composed by black space a collaborative of African American architects in. And I think they have several chapters in different cities but they started in New York, and one of the principles in their manifesto says to plan at the speed of trust. So you have to develop the trust you have to develop the respect. You have to recognize them and embody value of the people in that community. They are the resource. They have the value human capital human resource and take the time to tap that value, but you have to have trust in order to do that. So I think that's a good point in that. Erasure may be happening, you know, as far as the buildings, but as long as you have the people, the value, the history, the power is still there. And so that's why I always refer to historic preservation as a movement, a movement of people. And so the concept of the goal of achieving solidarity is so important that everyone is a preservationist in some form of fashion and getting people to embrace that and sit with the ugly part of it to whatever that perception might be. You know, we're here to do that and help to help you do that I think, you know, as a as a movement. I know that you know my colleagues with the action fund they're definitely committed to bringing people, you know, to that positive realization. So a quick story, my landlady in Philadelphia. Wonderful woman talk to her every month or so now she has these beautiful stone properties, and she caretakes them. I mean, just meticulously scraping and caring. And once I just shared with that, and that she was a preservation she said don't call me that. And I was like, why not. And she just ran off a list of negative, you know, experiences and perceptions of preservation. And I had the good fortune of being able to show her that the love and the care that she takes for her buildings, the time that she takes with people like me newbies who moved to town and share about the Philadelphia she grew up in that she was preserving very important resources that she was inspiring, you know, with this history that she was able to share with me at least after going through that process the fact that I think I can accept that now. But again, that takes time and relationship building and and being present and seeing the value, you know, in in people in their stories. And, you know, it takes a community effort at the ground, you know, the ground level to, you know, someone like me who was, you know, now that I'm in the present, you know, I've been doing more preservation work and I attend the conferences. I understand now I get it, in other words, you know. And so I always feel when I come back from from, you know, these kinds of conversation having these conversations or conferences. It's my responsibility to go back and just share that knowledge and just as you said, tell people you, you know, you are a preservationist when you spend your garden when you paint your house when you, you know, fix up your business when you add an ingredient to your grocery store, because that person walked in the door and says I'd like I would love it if you could add this thing so you're you're really enriching people's lives by doing that. And so I feel that's my responsibility. And that's why I do probably call myself a preservationist because I do feel that that is a movement that I want to be part of. And I need to, you know, kind of start bringing other people together, including preservationists. So I have a story I was invited to ribbon cutting just two, three days ago, they there was this building that kind of sat at the beginning of a Latino neighborhood. It's called the Broad Street cultural corridor. And it's that empty and for about 20 years it had burned and it was a very popular Dominican restaurant that served Caribbean style chicken and those kinds of things and and those are the stories that I had heard and but it's that empty and it was right at the at the gateway as you call it. And as you went into that neighborhood that's what it that what is what represents that the neighborhood people saw that as what the neighborhood stood for when I knew otherwise. And so the city just bought it and decided to level it and they redid it and they, they built a gateway center so they wanted people to come in and it's right next to our biggest park it's a zoo. And they want people to find that as a gateway to the zoo. And so they asked me to speak. And so I, I told them the story I shared countless stories I said yes this is a gateway to the zoo, but I want to just remind people that this is a gateway to this really wonderful neighborhood. And, and then I just told stories about what that building was it was a Dominic that's similar to what we told you. And there was and where you're standing now is is almost sacred we're standing in the location of a big one of the first restaurants that was built in the neighborhood and so you know again it's it's that you just have to remind the city and the government officials and even the preservationists who were there. Yes, now this is a new gateway but let's not forget what stood here before, and why it was so important and why it still is important to the community for us not to forget what that was at one time and but that meant to the neighborhood. We're bridges. Right, we're standing in the gap right. Yeah. I just thought of an anecdote that I, I've got to share this this was back when I was able to, when I was running the diversity scholarship program, and I remember fielding a phone call from a fellow white woman who called and asked if it was okay for her to apply for a diversity scholarship. And, you know, I, I'd said that. Yeah, but I wanted what is it that you know what is it that you're working on. And she told me that she was a part of the she's a descendant of the Virginia check in Slovak communities. We had check in Slovak communities in Virginia in the south side of Virginia's south and west of Richmond. And, you know, I was like I was excited because that was new information I was like yes, absolutely you know this is, this is good good interesting ethnic history, you know that could add a nice little wrinkle to the south. And then she, as we talked she told me how you know her ancestors arrived in Virginia and they saw the black folks the formerly enslaved and they said hey, they're doing what we did at home. So they felt an immediate bond with the African American community that they found there in the south side. Sadly, because as time went on, they took on the. They adopted the mores of white Southerners who were there and you saw the break between, you know, between communities that had shared values. But the key point, the key reason I bring this up is that after she had her successful run, you know as a diversity scholar at the conference and, you know, met wonderful sets of folks and made, you know, made all the networking that she could. She sent me a letter the following year, all excited saying that, you know, she wrote a letter to the mayor of her town I think it was Petersburg Virginia, stating that she was, you know, writing in support of an effort to save an African American historic place. And she wrote very clearly as a diversity scholar as a former diversity scholar for the National Trust for Historic Preservation, and I was thrilled, because she understood. She understood her role. She understood the opportunity that she knows she was like okay I have some privilege. Let me go ahead, you know, with my white woman self, and, you know, show support for, you know, for fellow folks who are in the community to preserve community and culture. And, and that still sits with me to this moment, because it felt in that in that sense I was like, that's what I meant. When I said that if I did this right with the diversity scholarship program. If I could get white folks to see themselves as diverse as well, then I will done something because I know the rest of us see it. Maybe they see themselves in their various iterations of Europe, you know, out there doing their thing and then to turn around and use that, that sense of that gains sense of, you know, that newness of, you know, I can do this to I'm a part of this broader community, and then use that to be supportive of other efforts. Yes, that that felt like that present that was a preservation moment for me. You know, and I hope I've not spoken to that woman since I left the trust back in back in 2008, but I hope that she's continuing to do that I'd be great if she were somehow in this space right now going oh my God free I can't believe you remember that story. And that to me was my sort of great example of, of a person who was worried about whether or not she could be in a space, and then found herself taking advantage of being an ally after the fact. Wonderful. Thank you so much for that for sharing. The goal is solidarity right stand in solidarity, and to see that we are more alike. Then we're different, you know, Felicia Rashad who was co chair of the African American cultural heritage action fund and our brand ambassador. I don't want to paraphrase but she has a wonderful quote where she encourages encourages us to see the humanity in each other. That's, that's when we can go and grow towards solidarity when we understand our shared humanity and our shared history again black history is American history. And, you know, Latino history here in this country is history. I just wanted to then kind of talk a little bit about our role as preservation practitioners know how that thing came up and bringing people to that point bringing people to the solidarity. What what do you guys think, you know, are our roles I use the term bridge earlier, standing in the gaps to kind of share information. What what do you all see as our roles as practitioners and those who are coming to this conference are hoping to grow their skills as well and take them back. Back to their respective home home time so let's can we top it up a little bit about our roles in the movement and when we're interacting in our communities. Well, bridges is one thing and I don't necessarily need to say this because I'm in that age bracket but we need to act like elders. We need to, you know, we, we know, we know our field. We know, you know, I can speak from one perspective of preservation and the three the three of us together can come together and define it in different ways but it's still the same thing right we all have the different perspective. But, you know, I believe in education, you know, being an educator. I use I do use the word elder because I don't know somehow I think the word elder has a little bit more respect to it. I try to put respect to it I teach kids that just because you're you use the word elder doesn't mean that you have white hair and you're you're don't know what you're talking about. Because you're wise, you know what you know you've been there, and you're out you're now an elder because you want to learn. It's not just that you have all the answers it's just that we need to come together to learn from each other. So in the preservation world that's how I see it I, I'm really trying to bring as part of the ally ship a lot of young people who don't really look or understand or one want to don't care about the preservation the word preservation field or don't understand it so you know that that's kind of what I'm trying to add to my list of things to ways to look at at being an ally. Well, in my experience, you know, you know, had to be a little bit of everything coming in and helping to interpret the language that we've developed in this movement that we've developed in this you know it's a lot of, you know, words terms, you know, we have a very large lexicon of terms that really, you know, confused and confound. Some people say we did it for that purpose, but nonetheless, so come in as an interpreter. Try to come in to facilitate and get people in the room so that we can exchange so that they can constituents can share their lived experience and allow, whether it be allies or elected officials or whoever the opportunity to value that to hear it. To see it embody in a person in another human being and come to value that. Yeah, and then also come in as a lack of a better, you know, term, a bit of a gap fly. Especially when dealing with governments institutions organizations who've always done things a certain way and always had a certain perspective and just pose those questions. To hopefully get them to open their understanding and open their minds to most importantly valuing a community, valuing the resources within that community. And, and again, planning at the speed of trust. Because as quiet as it's kept, we're, we're all in this boat together. I don't care what corner you've assigned yourself to. I don't care how much you've worked to separate yourself, whether it's in gated communities or, you know, restricted districts or whatever we're all still in this boat together. And so in as a preservationist, I see my role as pulling up the shade and shedding some light on the fact that we're not that we're not separate rather that we are together and you can't throw that boomerang without it coming back so let's make sure we're putting out good work and that we're being as equitable as we can be and that we are valuing and lifting up each other. Because when I'm live when I lift you up I'm lifted up as well. That's how I see, you know, some of my roles. How about you free. I usually say that I try to meet people where they are, and, and figure out what is it that I can do to help other individuals see that what I'm doing is I can do what they do but they may not necessarily see it the same way so that if you're a preservationist fan, and you have a revered stadium or field that is in the process of being restored. You know I'm like, you're like me, you're you're in the preservation game because you know you know that you know the stories that you have attached to that place. And to see that place, you know, restored so that you can go back and continue to share with others that which you gain there. For me also, I've been very big on music venues of late thinking the same thing if you're a fan, you had that special concert where you met someone, or, you know, you had that first love, your first musical love. You got to see them and you know when you hear a song, you see yourself back in that concert getting a groove on, you know, when that place is threatened. You know I want people to tap into those those old feelings and go, yeah, that place should be saved because you know that story was, you had a good story about what you did there, you know back in 1987 or something like that. And, you know, the effort that the folks here are putting towards saving this place, you know, is a part of respecting and honoring that memory that you have, you know, so your preservation is because you know you want to see that play save And it's it is it is that sense of respect, it is that sense of again meeting people where they are but getting them to understand that the work that we all do is in a way helping to honor the memories that they have for various aspects of their lives no matter who it is that you are, you know, and, and there's a beauty to that because in getting them to understand and see, you know, see that aspect of themselves. We then get allies when it comes time to go to a city council, a state legislature, a governor's office, the federal government, you know now we've got a whole group of people behind us, who are like, Yeah, yeah, we want to support. What they're doing because, you know, they've helped us, they've helped to remind us of why it is that, you know, we're supporting them doing their work. You know, and that's how I see this opportunity of, of expanding, you know, our movement moving us, you know, again back to my my constant line moving us back to that history, whether it's a personal history whether it's a learned history, whether it's an acquired history, you know, it goes back to that know why are we here. Why are we doing this, and we all know why, you know, we're trying to preserve that history in some way shape or form. And that's, that's how I see the role that I have and, and I accept that you know as a as an academic historian that's kind of where my head sits I'm always I'm always fascinated by what I learned when I go someplace you know I get to a place and I'm like tell me what I learned there again, and I'm trying to put it in the historic broader historical context of some other stuff that I've learned or you know my my areas of expertise. You know, and that's how I do always thinking about historic sites and how you know they can use. academic institutions and get grad students or undergraduate students to help build their sites capacity by helping them improve the historical interpretations that they have you know that's, that's how my mind works. And that is of my approach to bring the, the, the particular gifts that I have, you know in this field forward, but I also as a former director for diversity at the trust. I'm constantly thinking about the many multiplicity groups that exist here, and our interrelationships, and, and really, you know, trying to figure out ways that we can all do a better job of making sure that the totality of the complex history of this country. You know, gets to be told, and that the places that we can say can be saved so that those stories can continue to be told for future generations. And we're all using the word stories. I love that being an oral historian that's really, that's really how, you know, I do my work I base, you know, I, to me the stories are so important the stories of a. I mean you each of you have shared stories, you know, the stories of, you know, the first time you went to a concert the story the first time you tasted something that reminded you of back home. I'm just wondering, I, I'm not, I don't do preservation work, you know, by definition, but I'm just wondering do you, how much do you depend on stories to make decisions is are the is it at the top three of your list or is it top 10. Do you have personal stories oral histories, or just stories. Definitely, I mean, oh yeah, best practices when it comes to documentation. That's the first thing you want to know is what is what happened like you said free what happened here. So we can start documenting and then go to documents documentation to further confirm. How it can be applied across so many communities and how it touches so many lives and so many of us, you know, as you begin your process whether it's for designation whether it's for advocacy work to save or promote that space, or even to bring the story so you can motivate and educate the young folks and and bring them into the fold, get them excited about this story and what happened in this place and, and active in, you know, preserving it and and reactivating it if it's not already in use. So yeah, it's, it's top of the list. And I was going to say the, I'm sorry, the, the, Oh, go ahead. I asked the question. The national register nominations that I've, I've worked on that have been successful have incorporated oral history oral history interviews in those, and with a specific goal of trying to find the oldest person who is related to the historic place, and a younger person. But the oldest person related to an historic place because that person can tell me, you know, can get me as far back as possible. But I often also look for a younger person who I see as, you know, I want to know, are you going to be that steward, going forward as the older person leaves us, those places need stewards. And by doing that, that's, that's how I try to construct my way of putting together all histories to support a nomination for the national registered historic places. Yeah, I love that that moment when you have a, you know, an elder and a young person together and, and, and, you know, you can almost see that knowledge being passed through when, again, that bulb goes off. And, and, you know, and I have found when I do end up going to try to meet with state legislators or even federal legislators. It's those personal stories that they want to hear you can come in with all kinds of data. And you can come in with, you know, reports, but it's like, okay, do you have any store. I mean, it's a stories that really sometimes sway the decision or or way very heavily. And it's from the young people. So, especially, especially constituents. That's, that's always the key. You make sure that they're their constituents, so that you're reminding them that these are people who can vote for you. You know, you know, this is important. Or it could be or they could be the next elected official that you absolutely making these decisions. And I have to point out that, you know, since we are here at the past forward conference that a lot of our colleagues here are looking for those best practices. When you are dealing with these intangible resources that are our stories. And so as, as our oral historian here Marta, any kind of best practices, you know, for someone who says, okay, so oral history is a tool. What do I need to make sure to do or not to do when collecting these very important, but, but sensitive and intangible resources. Yeah, I do a lot of fact checking. So I also have a journalism background and I, I approach oral histories. To me, it's just, it's just important to capture story from somebody who has one to share. But also I use those, you know, I need to verify it three times, you know, make sure that three people have the same at, you know, again, it could be more than three people. But three people, once the third person verifies that same fact. So it's up, you have to do fact, fact checking. And then, you know, I do go to the archives, archives are important. Reading newspaper articles, sometimes. So really just making sure that you do your detective work and the facts are there together. It's not, I mean, the three of us can be at the same event and we each have a whole different story to tell. So you have to have factual checks all the time. That's, that's the best practice advice I always give. What about you? Everyone has to be a little bit of an historian. You have to be because again, you know, like with the journalism aspect, you're, you're required to get, you know, if you're doing an oral history for me. You know, I'm making sure that if the goal is to get a designation, that I am, I'm making sure that not only am I making sure that the interviewees are conveying the historic importance of the place, but that they are that they are more or less as as I said there, they are, they're bolstering the information that I know I always walk into an oyster interview, knowing the basic the straight up history of the space. So when they're talking to me, I'm looking for, you know, key things that I know about the historic relevance of a place of the civil rights event happened in that space. And I hear somebody say that already knew that that's where it's been happened, but I now have a witness today. You know, that's, you know, again, I'm simply repeating what Marta said, but it's, for me, it's not journalism, it's, it's the academic history training for me. So yeah, I am, I am running to an archive I am digging through these papers, but I love those things. I'm a history nerd like that. Well, I have to always do the disclaimer that I am not a historian. You know, you know, you know, I'm a busy body who likes to, you know, get people hyped up and get them working on something that elevates and motivates and inspires all of us. My friends are busy bodies who published what they learn. Well, as, but as you know a best practice. Now I'm kind of, it motivates to remind folks to get both sides go across the tracks and get both sides are as many sides of the story as you possibly can you made a great point Marta, we can all all 3D in the same place and have a totally different experience and perspective and so with oral histories, if you are focused on African American story. You'll go to, you know, the white residents or neighbors, Asian Latin go check out everyone's perspective on it to really give us that full story, you know, as we say at the action fund, telling the full story. So that's, that's the one thing that I will add in terms of a best practice and check out the, you know, the oral history entity or organization in your county or your town or your state to get other to do is in terms of, you know, permission releases and other ways to ask questions and and to collect the data because those, those are some really important resources to utilize. But I think we're coming up on our time. So we can't leave without talking about moving from vision to action since that's our theme here at Pass Forward this year. So how do we, you know, we've gotten people, you know, envisioning this world as one, and this movement as one of solidarity and unity. How do how do we move from that vision, or the vision that you even have for preservation how do we move to action. What's what's our call, what, what do we do next. Yeah, I think that's the key word move just keep, keep your feet on the ground. You know, talk to as many people just, you know, grass just for me it's to continue the grassroots movement. Work with young people, you know, going back to the role model or elder teacher educator and just start, you know, one of the things that I have founded, there's only one, there's one university here in Rhode Island that has a preservation focus is on preservation and they're very, very few. I don't even, I dare say there are no people of color in that field right now. And so for me that's my goal is just to try to get some of the young people as young as middle school to start understanding and for me, it's through the understanding of the cultural preservation approach. You know what you are doing is you are a preservationist, when you, you know, look at it that way so. So yeah, that's my, my call is to work with young people and get them to understand a more holistic way of looking at at the preservation world so that you don't get the misunderstandings and the and the doubts that you did Melissa when you talk to your neighbor about the fact that she was fixing her house she was already, she had this frame of mind and said oh no no preservationists are bad people. So we need to start young and start changing that attitude. You're muted Melissa. I was gonna say how about you free what how do we moving from vision to action. I'll keep I'll keep this. I'll keep it as quickly as quick as I can. I would I would challenge everybody who is listening to our conversation. It's a particular project that you're working on, and you're not focused and you've not taken a somewhat deeper dive on the actual history of that place or the history related to that specific project. And if you do that, see if you find that you have new questions coming up that actually can help make it so that you're doing a better a better job at doing the professional work that you're doing, because I would guarantee you that there's there may be something that you might be overlooking that the history of that particular place is trying to tell you but you haven't seen it yet. And that's that would be my challenge to as an historian to others who are watching me do that do a deeper dive on project that you're working on right now historically speaking, and see if you have any questions come up. And if you do one with it. I like it very motivating part hard one to follow as we wrap. Well, I concur with what both of you have shared. Yeah, keep keep moving and, you know, dig deeper and check your intention check your motivation. Because if it is to an uplift and to inspire and to tell the fuller story, there's no challenge with questions there's no challenge with criticism is an opportunity to learn. And so as we celebrate our fifth anniversary, you know, of the African American cultural heritage action fund. I just want to offer to all of our colleagues practitioners grassroots, whomever just take the first step. Call whomever you think might be able to help add to this vision that you have that don't don't hesitate to check in with the action fund. I remember listening to Brent legs are executive director gush about this vision that he had about this very thing that has been in existence for five years now that has supported more than 200 projects around the nation and raised $80 million. Just on this, this determination to move this vision forward so I again I just can't say enough happy anniversary action fund for being a light for being a beacon an example. Thank you all for being here and like Marta said, just keep moving. Just keep your feet on the ground with your head to the sky and let your intention to uplift movie forward. Do the work. Do the work. Thank you all so much. It's been great. Thank you.