 Welcome to the Dr. Gundry podcast. You know, if there's one saying I can't repeat enough, it is this, food is medicine. And my guest today is living proof of the healing power of food. In 2000, actually, you know, it's 20 years ago, she was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and actually within a few years, despite following phenomenal medical advice, she was confined to a wheelchair. But instead of taking the conventional approach, which clearly wasn't working, she radically transformed her diet. And within a year, she ditched her wheelchair and the cane and was actually riding her beloved bicycle. And if you go on the internet, you can watch pictures of her. She's Dr. Terry Walls, professor at the University of Iowa Carver College of Medicine, a best-selling author, and in my opinion, one of the foremost experts on the power of nutrition to reverse autoimmune disease. On today's show, Dr. Walls and I are gonna tackle hot topics like the keto diet and intermittent fasting, discuss whether fruit is really all it's cracked up to be, and discuss ways you can rebalance your gut microbiome for better health. Dr. Walls, welcome back to the Dr. Gundry podcast. Hey, thanks so much for having me. Well, it's a pleasure. We always have a great time talking with you. You truly are one of the greats in this field, and it's a pleasure to talk about your new book, The Walls Protocol, The New Edition. So- Hey, thank you. What's changed in the new Walls Protocol? Well, so we have a lot more ability for people to personalize the diet recommendation. So I talk about histamines, we talk about oxalates, and we talk about ketosis. I have pulled back from my original discussion of ketosis in the first book, I'm much more specific about who should be on a ketogenic diet and that there are a wide variety of ways to get into ketosis. So we talk about time-restricted feeding, intermittent fasting, periodic fasting, and then I talk about hormesis. We've updated a discussion on metabolic resilience, on how to create more emotional resilience, the science of behavior change and how we, the reason most of our colleagues struggle with getting their patients to succeed is that it's really hard for people to adopt and sustain the lifestyle changes that you and I recommend. And so I've created a much more robust process to support behavior change. So we talk about that. We talk about food addiction and addiction medicine. And then finally, I have update the reader on electrical stimulation and the latest in neuro-rebellation. So all in all, it's over a third new material. You know, that's one of the things I so much respect about you is that you're willing to make changes in your teachings and your philosophies based on research that wasn't available to you or me even a few years ago. And based on the results of your practice with patients. And our clinical trials. Yeah, that's exactly right. We're getting ready to start our fifth clinical trial. So in these 10 years, we've made a lot of progress. We have a lot more insight as to how to help people adopt and sustain these changes. And we have more insight in terms of what happens as people adopt and then sustain these changes. So, you know, keto wasn't a big part of your original book. Tell me what's changed your mind or where does keto fit in this whole process? Let's start there. Well, you know, certainly, ketogenic eating is something our ancestors did. They're in ketosis a lot, either because of the prolonged physical activity which depletes your glycogen stores and puts you into ketosis or because of winter, drought, war, famine that does not food and so you're in ketosis on that basis. And the science is very clear that being in ketosis does shift a lot of chemistry in very helpful ways. And so there's a bunch of research on the benefits of ketogenic eating for neurodegeneration, cognitive decline and certainly seizure disorder and cancers. And I certainly still talk about that research and stand behind all of that. However, there's also more research on the benefit of metabolic switching. Of being in a ketogenic state because of either physical activity or absence of food and then resting and eating and letting your cells replenish the glycogen, burn carbs or burn amino acids. And so we're switching between a ketogenic state and a non ketogenic state. And that switching does even better things for our brain and better things for our mitochondrial efficiencies than being in a prolonged ketogenic state. So now my preference is that I want people to be in ketosis intermittently. And you can do that either on a daily basis through time-restricted feeding or a weekly basis through sort of a 5-2 intermittent fasting or a periodic basis, so a periodic fast or you can do a seasonal ketosis. And I think in general, that's my preferred strategy. There are clinical circumstances though where I will still put someone in ketosis and leave them in ketosis forever. So let me, you and I know these terms pretty well, but for our listeners' purposes, intermittent fasting and time-restricted feeding seem to be used interchangeably, but in fact, they're not the same thing. Correct. Can you educate us on that? So the time-restricted feeding refers to how long a period you're not eating. So in general, you wanna, because most of us will deplete our glycogen stores, that is our stored carbohydrate, in about 12 hours. So if you can go longer than 12 hours without eating, you begin entering a ketogenic phase. That's why most of the time-restricted feeding asks people to have at least 14 hours of not eating. Sometimes it'll go as long as 16 hours or 18 hours. And I do have followers, I'm sure you do as well, who may eat once a day. I even have some followers who eat just every other day. So they have a really prolonged time-restricted feeding. Intermittent fasting sometimes is using that same sort of overlap term, but more commonly it refers to every other day or perhaps two days a week to either not eating or greatly reducing the calories on those days, perhaps to like 300 calories or 500 calories. You might hear a very common plan of a five-two plan where you have five days a week where you eat your normal metabolic requirements and two days a week where you have a severe, or I mean a fairly severe restriction to 300 calories, 500 calories. Some folks even do a water-only fast on those days. Yeah, I think they're not interchangeable. They both work in different ways. As you know, I wrote about time-restricted feeding actually back in the early 2000s with my first book and my editor actually cut a huge chapter out of my first book because she thought I was crazy. But during the winter, I think this is now my 18th year of doing this. From January through June, during the week, I don't eat breakfast, I don't eat lunch, and I eat all my calories between six and eight o'clock at night. So 22 hours a day, I'm fasting. That's very similar. That's what I typically do year-round. And then one week a month, I will do a calorie-stricted diet of 300 to 500 calories. And by the end of that week, I'm pretty hungry. Yeah, but you know, well, let's talk about that. People say, well, how can you do that? You must be starving all day. And the fact is, you know, it's now past lunch and I'm not hungry at all. In fact, it shocks people that once, if you're starting this for the first time, yeah, you may be hungry for a couple of days, but then there is no hunger involved. That's right, your body adapts and this becomes very comfortable. So eating one day a week is very comfortable. And even, you know, our week of the calorie restriction is way easier now than it was the first month that I did this. So, and interestingly enough, my wife, after watching me do this for a year, said, you know, honey, I think I'll start doing it. And so she now does this regularly with me as well. And so, you know, our kids are looking at the two of us and going, God, you guys keep looking better and better and better. And I think that's true. You know, certainly my hair is still getting gray. So I haven't changed that. But if you line up photographs of me, I certainly continue to use them. Yeah, I posted on Instagram, I think last year, a picture of me from 11 years earlier and a picture of me currently. And most people who see me, you know, comment, why aren't you aging or, you know, let me see your skin. It looks like a young person's skin. And, you know, you're very old. Yeah, I think there's, I think there's something, you know, I think just to get in personally, you can visually see the, or the lack of the changes or the backward aging, de-aging. And what we're doing is, I like to call this euthanine. And part of what we're doing is with the time-restricted feeding and the periodic fasting, we're boosting the number of stem cells in circulation. And we're boosting the stem cells in our skin. We're boosting the stem cells in our brain, in our heart, in our liver, our kidneys, our blood vessels. And so we're not aging at the same rate as all of our peers. So, yes, we are absolutely euthanine. My kids sort of laugh, you know, that movie Benjamin Button, they're like, oh my god, mom, are you doing a Benjamin Button? So we'll see. Yeah, well that was the comment on the Instagram. I said, oh my gosh, you know, it's Benjamin Button going on here. So I think you're right. You're right, my hair is still gray. Initially, I was convinced that, you know, I was gonna have a nice shocking blackhead of hair again, but there's certain things that I haven't been able to kick into gear. But, interesting story, one of my patients had a male, had breast cancer in his 70s, and it was a fairly aggressive form, and he went on chemotherapy for a year, and his hair fell out, and surprisingly, when it grew back in, it grew back a luxurious black of when he was young. That is wild. Now, you also mentioned in your book, and there's far more important things, but both you and I recommend the idea of Walter Longo's idea that a five to seven day vegan calorie restriction is a really good way, and clinically proven, to boost stem cell production. And I know you mentioned him in the book. Are you still using the prolonged every now and then? Yeah, you know, so sometimes we'll do prolonged, sometimes we'll do water only, sometimes we'll make our own soups and broths. You know, and I certainly agree with Walter that a high protein diet is a problem. Just sort of like a high carb diet is a problem. It stimulates a lot of insulin, it stimulates your mTOR, it stimulates insulin-like growth factor, ends up increasing your risk for growth, which if we're not toddlers and our bone plates have fused, growth can only do a couple of things. It can make me fatter, which I'd rather not have happen. It can cause benign tumors, which would be inconvenient, or it could cause cancer, which is terribly inconvenient. And so I want sufficient protein to do the maintenance that I need for my body, but I don't want so much protein that I have all these growth factors stimulated. Well, now I'm glad you brought that up, because that again is something I respect a great deal about you. You, even in some of your cookbooks, there's quite frankly a lot of animal protein. And you know, I'm from the Midwest as well. And I had to make the fundamental switch in my brain that this protein was probably not doing me a great service in the long run. What about the carnivore diet? Oh, yes, so I just had a very interesting conversation with a carnivore MD, and so we had some robust points of view. His, he quoted a study of two men from the 1930 that were filed for a year with zero adverse health consequence, and a study that had looked at the microbiome change over a week, and that was all the research that he could point out. He does make the case that plants, because of their lectins, it quotes you there, Dr. Gundry, that plants are noxious to us and are poisonous. Then I asked him like, okay, I've not been able to find a hunter-gatherer society that ate zero plants all of their adult life or all of their childhood life and the whole life of that clan. Do you have any that you can refer me to that I can read about? So he couldn't find any of that. I will agree with my carnivore colleagues that for some people with a severe autoimmune problem that's unresponsive to my protocol, to your protocol, that the carnivore diet may be the ultimate elimination diet. That it may allow them to reset their immune system in that doing the carnivore diet for a period is that three months may help reset their immune system and then they could begin to reintroduce foods. I think he has, we need more information. I told him that what I really would like to see is to get this stuff in the peer-reviewed literature. So give me case series, give me case reports, do a survey-based study. Who's following the carnivore diet? What is their clinical experience? Do some weight food records? So we know what are the nutrients that are in the carnivore diet as you are describing it. So we can identify are there nutritional insufficiencies we have to worry about? Are there nutrients that are up over the upper limit of what's safe? For example, he wants people to have a pound of liver every day, probably a pound of liver every week. Every week, yeah. That's a lot of retinol. And I'm very excited about liver. I think liver is a superfood, it's really good for us. But a pound of liver is gonna exceed the upper limit for retinol. And retinol, once you get it in your body, although it's a critical nutrient, there's a narrow range. And within that narrow range, once you get over that, then you're gonna be at risk of long-term toxicity, which can lead to problems with cirrhosis, needing a liver transplant, pulmonary fibrosis, needing a lung transplant. And there is no getting it out once it's in. And so there may be a select number of patients for which the carnivore diet may be a helpful tool. I certainly don't yet have enough information to feel comfortable saying that historically we have societies that have been carnivores with zero plant material for the rest of their lives. And so I am very reluctant to call this a safe long-term diet. It may be a safe diet for a month. I may go as long as three months, but I think we don't know. Yeah, I think he, I've talked with this physician as well. He praises me for bringing up lectins and turn his thoughts around. But, and I think you're right, it may be for certain people with an autoimmune disease that you and I can't break with our protocols, which are incredibly similar, that maybe a carnivore diet with true grass-fed, pastured, et cetera, may be a good elimination diet for maybe a month, but I had the pleasure of debating another young woman who I won't mention because it was off camera when we talked about this, who has done a carnivore diet for her autoimmune disease, but now she wants to get off the carnivore diet and she can't. She, anytime she now re-introduces plant materials, her gut goes haywire. And that's one of my fears about all this. So let, actually, that brings up a question. What, how you and I see a lot of people with irritable bowel with deranged microbiome that when we ask them to increase their plant material, let's just use that generally, they get severe gastric distress, IBS, cramps, bloating, diarrhea gets worse. What do you do with those folks? So I haven't got a pressure pot, instant pot, and start doing soups and stews. We do a lot of bone broths. And I will make sure that they are having liver once a week, and that I have them cook everything in high pressure, and I will potentially blenderize the soups and stews and take that route. I also make sure that we have a gluten detection kit and that I'm detecting their urine and their stool a couple of times a week. And often what we discover is their diet's not as clean as they think. And this might be, and then we have to figure out, okay, where's this gluten coming from? Is it in their supplements? Is it in their medication? Is it in their food? Because they've not been as meticulous. Because when you go to the restaurant, 40% of the food that's labeled gluten-free still has detectable gluten in them. If you go to the grocery store, 20% of the products labeled gluten-free still have gluten in them. So I spend a lot of time telling people, don't get the gluten-free bread, cereals, pastas, brownies, cookies, just get vegetables and meat. Yeah, I know, I think that's true. I'm friends with a number of James Beard award-winning chefs and really to a person, they say it's, you really cannot eat gluten-free in a restaurant even if our servers tell you you will be eating gluten-free. And I think that's incredibly important advice. It's virtually impossible. You cannot reliably get it. There are some published papers now that have gone out and collected food from restaurants, food from grocery stores, and then tested that and have quantified the gluten. So my advice is to be much more meticulous. You're the person who's struggling. I monitor their urine and stool and that can create a big aha moment. That's area number one. And then number two, we have them use the Instant Pot. Yeah, and I just released my latest book, the Plant Paradox Family Cookbook, that uses a pressure cooker and Instant Pot for most of the recipes. And it also helps busy families, which is, it's miraculous in terms of a time-saving device. But yeah, I do the same thing. I really have these folks, I mean, cook their vegetables, pressure cook their vegetables to, you know, limp. And then I agree with you, blenderizing them, making them into soups. And then what I do is I introduce these things really in small amounts initially and work the way up. And this is actually the advice I gave to this young woman, kind of off camera. And we'll see if it works, but yeah. You have to be very cautious. You know, when the carnivore MD and I chatted and he talked about this old study, which really was very interesting, the 1930s individuals who have meat-only diet for a year, that was a very different kind of meat. The animals would have been grass-fed, it all would have been organic rations. And so that was a very different product than what people are getting now. Even if they're getting organic meat, it's probably grain-based meat. It's pretty tough for people to get grass-fed, grass-finished meats. And so this is a very, very different product. And the Arctic dwellers, which was what were the original source of the diets for these two men, even those communities during the summer have plant material. They don't have a animal-based product the whole time. And their products with sale, pardon me, whale blubber, seals, and primarily fish-based and some caribou, that's a very different mix of animals than what most carnivores are eating. That's very true. Plus, interestingly, following modern hunter-gatherers and certainly following carnivores like lions, they will actually eat the guts of the animal they kill first, including the parts of the intestines that the animals have eaten, which are digested plant materials. Correct. And I think we have to understand that piece of that equation of the carnivore diet is missing. So... If we look at evolutionary, so six million years ago, we were part of the primates in eating primarily plants. Two million years ago, we're in the Homo genus. We are eating more animal products as well. We still have pretty large guts, so we're still eating a lot of plant material. Then about 100,000 years ago, we are, we're eating more animals and we're cooking. Our guts begin to shorten as we're cooking our food. And so, I mean, what I did agree with our carnivore MD was that, okay, so my ancestral mothers and fathers, the Brunhilda and Baywolves of thousands of years ago. So during the summer, Brunhilda was out there getting plants and we were having a lot of non-poisonous leaves and some tubers and a lot of dirt. And some small animals that she was catching in the nets. Baywolf was out there getting the bigger game and bringing that back and then during the winter, I wasn't eating any plant materials and I was either not eating or I was eating carnivore. So I was willing to admit that certainly, several months out of every year, I was either fasting or being a carnivore and at least seven months to nine months out of the year, I was clearly an omnivore. That is what we have the most historical precedent with as homo sapiens are being omnivores, just very occasionally carnivores and fairly occasionally having to fast. Hey, let me, on that same subject, let me give you another question. So my wife and I will eat our meal at dinner because that's quite frankly, when we're both home, we both work. Same here. So what say you that really, if we were gonna do this correctly, we should eat our meal at breakfast and then start our fast at that point? Well, again, let's sort of think about Baywolf and Brunhelda, back there about 100,000 years ago. Baywolf was out there hunting and so he's gonna come back in the afternoon with his brothers and cousins, et cetera. And they'll probably be showing up around one o'clock. Then I'm cooking that stuff. So maybe at best I'm eating two or three o'clock. So I bet we have probably a longer history of the feast mid-afternoon and that's when we ate and we probably had one meal a day. I mean, the concept of three meals a day was a newly introduced European dictum to separate themselves from the savages. And my guess is historically, we probably had one meal a day. When we are farmers, and we came farmers 10,000 years ago, we might have had a meal before going out and doing the farm work. You've slaved all day in the fields, working your tail off and you come back in and you have another meal in the evening. So it might have had two meals a day. But when we were hunting and gathering, it was one meal. Okay. And it was probably late afternoon, mid-afternoon at the earliest. Yeah, as I tell my patients, we didn't crawl out of our cave and say what's for breakfast. Yeah, we're ready to go catch it. Yeah, and breakfast means break fast and that's when we found it. The other thing that interests me is, as you know, our cortisol levels rise early in the morning, starting around four o'clock in the morning. And that actually kicks up our blood sugar. And my argument to people saying breakfast is the most important meal of the day would be that we seemingly have an evolutionary fix for the fact that we weren't going to have food early in the day because cortisol makes us insulin resistant and it kicks up our blood sugar and we're actually off and running. So all my diabetic patients, I actually say, haven't you noticed that your blood sugar goes up early in the morning and they go, yeah. And I said, well, believe it or not, that's on purpose. And you were designed for this. So the idea that we've got to get that meal in, the first thing that we wake up just, it doesn't make any physiologic sense. No, no, I don't think there's any need for that. All right. So like I say, you change your ideas, bless your heart. What have you learned about the microbiome that you didn't know five years ago? That my colleagues are really getting excited about our microbiome that they admit we don't really know what species we should have in a microbiome. Even my microbiome scientist admits that he doesn't know what species are the right species to have. That probably it's what these species can do. And that microbes are gene-swapping all of the time. And so even though we may have these probiotics because they're being cultured in these big steel vats, they're gene-swapping all the time, we don't know what processes that microbe can do. And it's the processes that I need, not the name of the species. So the research that is really the most interesting is the research that looks at the metabolites, the metabolome, and we've got that frozen. So we're gonna be analyzing that. Metabolon looks at about 20,000 different compounds that are in your urine, your blood, your poop, your spinal fluid, and sees how that changes. So we're writing grants now, so hopefully there'll be a time when I'm gonna be able to analyze the changes in our blood, urine, and stool as people adopt the wall's diet or as they adopt any of the other diets that we study. And because you see, that is what I think the change in the diet that you advocate and that I advocate that our gut then digest that foods into smaller compounds that get into our bloodstream that help us run the chemistry of life. And it's the microbiome making these metabolites that influence our health. So that's very exciting. I talked about that in the book. We are writing grants. Hopefully in the next couple of years, we will get funded, be able to analyze that stuff. And so hopefully in 2021 or 2022, I can begin to much more specifically address that. Fantastic. You're famous for advising people to eat nine cups of vegetables a day. Now, yeah, now most people equate because of dietary advice, fruits and vegetables as equally healthy and because fruits takes good and vegetables don't, they tend to head for the fruits. In your new book, you aren't particularly wild about fruit. And as you know, I have told people to give fruit the boot. So what say you? So our fruit is very, very different. It's been cultivated to have a lot more starch, have a lot higher fructose content. And so that's very different than the type of fruits that would have been our ancestors would have consumed. For them, berries would have been like this huge treat, a very seasonal treat. You could have that. Probably does not have nearly the amount of lectins because the plants want us to eat. The fruit, so they aren't going to be as noxious towards it. True. The fruits that we have cultivated and created again have so much more fructose, so many more carbs. And frankly, so do a lot of the starchy vegetables. So what I've discovered in my clinics and our clinical trials is that people ramped up on the fruit and did not have near the amount of vegetables that I wanted them to have. So I've made it much more explicit that we're dialing down the fruit. And my preference is that what we're talking about, ideally, are berries. I think berries are the most beneficial of the fruit. It's so much more important to get the greens, to get the sulfur, and a small amount of fruit. If you have a belly that's bigger than your butt, then I'd rather you not have any fruit. And that's most Americans, unfortunately. Unfortunately, that is most Americans. And unfortunately, most children now too. No, that's true. And now, we kind of touched on this. So the ultimate elimination diet may be a temporary carnivore diet, but give me your new elimination diet. So my preference is meat, vegetables, but we're talking about the greens, the sulfur, the color. We have people remove nightshades. So that's tomatoes, potatoes, eggplants, peppers. I have them remove all grain, all legumes. I talk about removing nuts and seeds, and preferably seed spices. If you're going to cook, then I want them to cook with a Instant Pot. I do talk about if someone is a vegetarian, vegan for their spiritual beliefs, then we have them have gluten-free grains and legumes, and we stress that this should be cooked in a Instant Pot. And then I have them do that ideally for six months, but at least for a hundred days. And then I have them begin reintroducing foods, one ingredient at a time, to assess what their reaction is. And I talk a lot about biosensors and the subtle symptoms that may indicate that your biosensor is detecting more inflammation. So I have trigeminal neuralgia, which means I have bouts of electrical face pain either across the right side of my face or the left side of my face. And as a result, if I begin to have any change of perception of my face, I'm very sensitive that that's an early warning sign that something activated the microglia in my brain and my spinal cord and my trigeminal neuralgia is about to start firing. So now I have to think about, okay, did I have, was I exposed to food that might be contaminated? Did I get too much toxin exposure? And the most recent thing I realized, Steve, is that I can't, I have to limit how many flights I take each month because I'm trying to help as many people as I can. So I'm flying around the country doing all of these lectures and realize that, I can take two speaking gigs a month if I do three, I'm likely to have my face pain turn on. And so if my biosensor becomes active, if my sensation of my face changes, I need to sit down and really reflect on what's going on. What could I improve in my environment and how did my environment get contaminated? I think that's a really great point. Certainly people who have followed my program for a while notice they become very aware. They finally get back in tune with what their body is trying to tell them. And even a knight of a cheat, what they'll call a cheat, they pay for it in sometimes subtle ways, sometimes in fairly vigorous ways. And I have a number of particularly women who had had MS that no longer have it, but they know their triggers and they feel it. Yeah, it also reminds me that I talk a lot about epitope spreading in that early on people might feel like, well, it's a special occasion. I could have pizza and beer with my friends or I could have an indulgence and I'll just clean up my diet. What I have to let them know is that every time that you are causing this flare, you're damaging your cells, you're damaging how you run the biochemistry and there's no guarantee that you can get back to your previous baseline. And so if you continue to damage, you may trigger another serious autoimmune condition and that you may discover you don't get back to baseline. I also talk about if we don't get to the root cause of what's causing their MS or their rheumatoid arthritis or their scleroderma or their psoriasis and they keep taking their disease modifying drug, but not address the diet lifestyle root causes. What will likely happen is that every decade, another autoimmune problem will develop. And that's why so many people now are having two or three or four serious autoimmune diseases. Yeah, I tell my patients that if when you and I were coming up through the ranks, if we know what we know now about autoimmune disease, I don't think we would have put names on these things. I don't think we would have named them. You have MS, you have rheumatoid arthritis, you have psoriasis. I think it's far better to say, your immune system is activated against you. My personal feeling it's because you have a leaky gut that has turned on your immune system and that's what we have to address, not the name that you have. That's right. The time that these things were being described, that was about the early 1800s and my Crosby was just beginning to be developed. We didn't understand the mechanisms of what were the root causes of these illnesses. So we just could look at what organs were being damaged, where the growth symptoms were, and we devised our treatment gradually addressing those and symptoms. And now when we look at the microscopy, the electron microscopy and the cytokine profiles, what of course is no surprise to you and I is that the basic biochemical processes are the same, whether it's psoriasis or scleroderma or anxiety or depression or MS, it's mitochondrial dysfunction, excessive inappropriate inflammation, over-activated innate autoimmune immune system. And so if we help people address those root factors, they discover that their disease state that they originally came to see me for is getting better, but then so is their mood, so is their pain and their husband saying, their blood pressure is getting better and their blood sugar is getting better. And more discovery is that the whole family's health challenges are often steadily improving. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Yeah, and I'm so glad, again, revised and expanded because I hope you and I have learned something in the last five years that we didn't know before. Yes, hopefully so. Hopefully so. And there are, unfortunately, people giving nutrition advice who haven't changed what they say in the last 20 years, which is unfortunate, because I can't wait for tomorrow because I'm gonna learn probably something new from one of my patients that I didn't know before. No, I have more appreciation when I think of George Orwell's book, 1984, and where I'm going with that is it's very hard for us to learn anything new. You know, we have so much information coming to us from the periphery, our brain and our nervous system keeps tamping down, tamping down, tamping down. And we manage by recognizing patterns of what we think, how we understand the world. So it's really no surprise that our physician colleagues ignore lots of information for a long time because they can't deal with the volume. So they interpret everything within the context of what, how they currently understand the world. Our physician colleagues do this, our scientific colleagues do this, we do this, all of us in our lives. It's how we manage with the overwhelming amount of information. Yeah. Well, Jerry, it's been great having you back on the program. Before I let you go, I wanna share a few comments we got on the last show we did together. Oh, good. Yeah, here's Joanne who wrote, how exciting to hear this brilliant conversation between Dr. Gundry and Dr. Walls. I am so very grateful to both of these magnificent healers who give us all great hope for joyful longevity. Well, that's sweet. Thank you, Joanne. That's why we do this. And here's a great one from Barry. She is articulate, humble, educated, helpful and profound. She represents the future of good medicine. So that's much deserved praise for you from our listeners. So where do folks find more about you, your work and where do they get the new version of the Walls protocol? So please come find me at terrywalls.com. That's T-E-R-R-Y, Walls-W-A-H-L-S.com. And if you wanna see our research papers and including the videos of gate changes from before and after, go to terrywalls.com forward slash research papers. That's very exciting. We have a in-person event where we have hundreds of people coming every year to learn what we're doing in our research lab and my current thinking about diet, lifestyle, restoring health. And that we have every summer. So that's an amazing experience as well. Fantastic. Well, thank you again for all you do. Before we go, we got an audience question. So ScorpioMum on YouTube asks, Dr. Gundry, how about kidney stones forming because of increasing intake of leafy greens? So I prepped you about this. Dr. Walls, what do you think? So if you already have kidney stones and if your physician has told you that you have oxalate stones, then yes, they will probably put you on a low oxalate diet and will tell you to avoid sph greens and to avoid beet greens in particular. Yep. If you happen to have a problem with autism spectrum disorder, potentially oxalates may be an issue for you. However, aside from that, I'd say the vast majority of people do very, very well. The biggest driver of kidney stones is dehydration. It's a sugar high processed diet. Again, our ancestral mothers and fathers did very well eating plant material and meat. And they probably did not have access to as much water as you and I have access to. So advice is get rid of processed food, have plenty and plenty of water. However, if you do have a history of kidney stones, by all means talk to your physician about the particular type of stone you have and any guidance that you might need. Yeah, I agree with that. Please, as I tell my patients, we gotta know what kind of kidney stones you have. They're either uric acid, urate stones or calcium oxalate stones. And I also advise, particularly my female patients, please don't take traditional calcium supplements. That's out in my protocol. Yeah. Yeah, and quite frankly, I see so many people that have the urate crystal kidney stones and they are on a high fructose diet, whether it's from fruit, whether it's from wine and beer or whether it's from all the processed foods they're eating. All right, that answers your question. And boy, it's great to see you again and hopefully we'll have you again on soon. Write another book, please. I'm finishing my next book called The Energy Paradox, which is gonna be right up your alley as well. Great, I look forward to it. All right, stay warm in the winter out there and come visit us in Southern California. Sounds good. Take care. That's it for The Dr. Gundry Podcast, see you next week. Before you go, I just wanted to remind you that you can find the show on iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts because I'm Dr. Gundry and I'm always looking out for you.