 You're welcome back to the breakfast on Plus TV Africa, let's now talk politics and 2023. Southern Governors stance regarding that big day and that big year is that the presidency should be rotated to the south and we've been waiting to see what the Northern Governors have to say about that. And in their meeting yesterday in Kaduna, they came together to speak in one voice to basically back the federal government regarding that and to say that they reject zoning to the south for 2023. According to them, they say it is against the constitution. And let's now invite our Mr. Inquart Tharia as well as Mr. Ahmed Buhari for more on this. Thank you gentlemen for joining us. Thank you. Good morning. Good morning. Okay, I'd like to begin with Mr. Buhari. How would you respond to the Northern Governors their stance on this matter? Hello. Good morning everyone. It's good to be here again. This is what I think, yeah. I personally have been supporting the notion that a southern president should emerge in 2023. I just think for equity, fairness and some balance and some sense of belonging, that that should happen. But these things don't just happen like that. They are called, there are things that would have to happen within the political space. And so, somewhat like myself and some other people in the North who are very, very firm on the fact that maybe there should be a power rotation, which is not cited in the constitution, but just for the sake of morality and inclusiveness that power should be shifted to the South would have expected that the Southern Governors or whoever is interested in becoming the president in 2023, which in all honesty, I think it's an issue that is not as important as, you know, good governance that we should be giving to our people at present. But that also at that particular time, I would have expected that rather than go on and say we are a regional set of governors and this is what we must get. We want to have a Southern president and it's a mosque in 2023. I think the right thing to have done was to sit down with governors from the North. They have what they call the governor's forum. They sit down and they negotiate. That is what politics is about. You talk to each other, you negotiate. You work around it just because you want to get something. You know, my ideology for politics is very simple. Sometimes and most times you have to stoop low to conquer. But by the time you go out to say outright that look, we must bring power to the North or to the South. And there's a problem because if you look at the history there, times when the North has actually rallied around a particular candidate from the South and we gave him all our support. Why did we do that? Because some talking went down because we discussed because we agreed and because we then decided to move forward to support a particular candidate. It happened in 1999. The entire North supported. Mr. Buhari, can you hear us? Yes, I can. Yeah, we lost you for a minute. Please continue. I said very clearly that because this is politics, it has no other space to be discussed but under the political space. I would have expected that the Southern Governors sit down with Northern Governors and negotiate this thing out. But by the time you come out to make blanket statement like must come to the South, then you now see some people in the North who naturally would have been very happy to find a Southern and come up in 2020-23. So you know what? This doesn't have to be a must. Nobody has come to talk to me. Even in those individual states in the South, nobody comes out to say I must be governor. You go around the local government, you go around the stakeholders, you negotiate, you talk to them, you win their sympathy, you win their understanding, you bring superior argument to the table. We don't just say must. When this thing came up last year, I did mention it on this particular platform. I said very clearly, I said look, this is going to be very bad. If all these Governors are friends, if all these Governors sit together, then the reasonable thing for all of them to do is to say, you know what? This is what we want, but this, how do we go about this? Would that make blanket statements? We talk to each other. That is the point it's about. All right, that's noted. Let's bring in Mr. Inkutaira for his own response to that. Mr. Inkutaira, can you hear us? Yes, clearly, now that's clear. Okay. How do you respond to the Northern Governor's stance against power rotation to the South for 2023? Well, first of all, I will completely agree with the term of the argument of Mr. Buwari. I dissent when it comes to submission. Yes, I agree. It all has to do with confabulation. It has to do with negotiation. It has to do with lobbying and what have you. That's what politics is all about. But let us not be oblivious of the fact that there is no part of this country that can produce a president without the support of all the sections of the Congress, especially the North. And so when the Southern Governor, I don't know why we will be quarreling with the word must or shall, as if it is mandatory, when the Southern Governors are saying the next president must come from the South, they are not saying willy-nilly. Maybe the problem has to do with the word, the choice of word. Of course, in communication, you must choose the right word from the word basket. You must communicate effectively. What I see is as a decoy by certain Northamans, knowing to where, what the Southern Governors are trying to make. What they are saying, in essence, is that they are going by the rotation of a president, going by the rotation of policy, that to ensure cohesion, unity. And this is because already the tenuous legations of a president like this, seriously threatening. And so you can imagine, to me, they should even go to the Southeast. The Eagles, if we have to talk of unity, if we still want these contradictions that we've already seen on the walls of Nigeria to be mended, they should even go to the Southeast. So if when the Southern Governors say, it must get to the South, they are not saying to hell with you, not at all. I don't think that is what they meant by saying to hell, whether you like it or not. Because even if you talk of numerical strength, whether it's curiously or factually, they not have the numerical strength. So there is no way the South would have just done away with the North. On the issue of the presidency, it is not possible. So when the Southern Governors say it must come to, maybe the choice of what it must come to the South, what they actually meant was going by the rotation principle that we have in this country, the next president should come from the South. That is basically what they meant. But this view, the views of the world, South is being exploited by certain mischievous characters. They want to use that as an excuse to ensure the emergence of the Northern president. That is my, that is what I deduce from it. Otherwise, it is not, we are not saying to be not, whether you like it or not, willingly the next president must come from the South. That is not what the Southern Governors are saying. I don't think that is what they mean. That is the truth about it. So if just as slanted interpretations are now being woven into the choice of world, that is just the problem there. And I don't think the Northern Governors should rely way on that must, ground on that South. It shouldn't be. That will be very unfair. Because if the presidency goes by the way, if the North retails the presidency, they will not talking of fairness. We are return going to talk about fairness. We talk about, like we talk about justice. I like that. And how are you going to explain those things if they are not returns the president? Of course, it's going to clarify that the cleavages we have in this country. So what my own take, my submission is that the Northern Governors should ignore the word char, should ignore the word must. What the Southern Governors are saying is, going by the principle of rotation, to ensure the coercion in the country, it is not the turn of the Southerners. Like to me, if you let me go to Igbo's, not when I say South, I know I'm not South. The whole of this side is referred to as the South. The whole of that side is referred to as the North. But we should actually go to the South East. But it's my take on it. Hold on to Sain Gautari. The world on the world, char, must and mandatory. No, we shouldn't dwell on that. That would be unfair. Okay. Ahmed Bohar, I'm coming back to you now. Sain Gautari has said that the Northern Governors are really only playing tricks with some of those words that have been used and trying to feed off whatever sentiments that can be gotten from there. So I want you to respond to Sain Gautari's thoughts. And also, I'm sure that in the past, we've seen some of these same Northern Governors and Northern leaders seek the idea of rotation. They have also asked that, oh, it's time for the North. And we've heard those things before. But this time, suddenly, from what you're saying, it seems like they now want to be negotiated with, which might seem like they need to be begged to allow for the Southern president in 2023. Does that also seem a little unfair? Even if, yes, you've pointed at most and shall as one of the challenges. But doesn't it still seem a little unfair to the Southern part of Nigeria and to the Southeast in particular and those who have been made promises to in the past that very likely it will come their way? So I remember during the build-up of 2019 when I contrasted for the office of the president of the Federal Republic of Nigeria, I made it very clear that I think the next election circle should go to the South. At that time, I know a lot of people from the South said it didn't matter that capacity was all that mattered. People hear these things. People remember these things. And so when it comes back again, people will tell you, oh, I thought it was about capacity. This is what I think, yeah. And I appreciate the fact that Ingotari, all of a sudden has become an English teacher with making us understand that sometimes the usage of certain words would not necessarily be what it means. It's hard for me to understand it. I mean, these are highly placement in society who should, who have a lot of following, who should always transmit as possible to present themselves in the light that would promote unity at fairness and justice like they actually claim. But when you segregate yourself and put yourself in a regional perspective and say, this is what we want, you send bad vibes, to be honest. And yes, you beg. In Ingotari contested since 2010, is it 2011 or so? He's been, no, before 2011, 2003, he's been saying, I want to be president. I want to be president. Until he was able to actually subdue himself, present himself before the South, and beg. It didn't happen for him. Yes, it is politics. That is what you do. That is how you get the sympathy and support from all over the sides. And you see, you are not making it seem like it's a Northern Governance problem. I remember people like, I don't know if I say the power should be shifted to the South. I remember people like La Long City, the power should be shifted to the South. But when the Southern Governance saw that a few of the governors from the North actually felt in their direction, what they would have done was to sit down, even if it has to be closed on meetings and say, you know what, we really want this to happen. Amongst ourselves, these are the candidates that we have pulled out for the possibility to become president in 2023. We want your support. Do you point us to other people that you think can help us actualize this dream? Not go on air and say, we must do this. And you know what that did? That actually created a divide. Whether we like it or not, in the minds of the people, a divide was created. And each time, each time I repeat, each time people in this country pull themselves to the side and say, we are Iowa Conservative Forum, or we are the Niger Delta people, or we are the Southwest people, what it does, it actually reminds us that we cannot be united. And it is wrong. What we must do, especially as leaders, is to promote what we call inclusivity, unity, put ourselves together. That is what we should do. These men have been into policies for us for God knows how long. And then when it comes to a time when you're supposed to now make sure that we mend all of the broken or all of the problems that we have, the next year when you are saying you have to be, it has to be given to you, it does not have to. In reality, I said it very clearly. I said, I've always supported for a Southern president to emerge in 2023. And yes, an evil president, but what are the evils doing about it? Right now, I would have expected the evils to have agreed within themselves to say, these are our four top candidates. Now we are going to go around the Northern States, around the Western States, around every other part of the country to say we want this to happen. And this is what we are bringing to the table. Let it happen, please. You don't just sit down and say you've put yourselves together and you're going to decide something. You know what is going to happen? The APC is going to probably present a Southern president. And that is when the PDP, the other party that is seem to be having an inclination with the South East or South South, will now present a Northern candidate. And guess what? The Northerners will vote for a Northern candidate. And again, whether regardless of the political party, a Northern might emerge, we must understand the politics and understand that we must, in all sincerity, play this game like it is. It is politics. You cannot expect a man who plays basketball to go into the football field and use his hand to hold the ball. It should be foul. Let's get it straight. Okay. So when we talk about zoning, rotation of powers and all of that, what really is your underlying reason? To give people a sense of belonging and to create inclusion. But there are other people who... Sorry? I say the reality. It is nonsense talk. Because what we should be talking about is good governance. I mean, too much emphasis is placed on the presidency. What are we doing in our local corners to ensure that these things are being done right, even from the governor's perspective? I can tell you for free that every governor, the governors in this country are stronger than the presidents. The governors installed ministers. The governors installed their commissioners. I don't see any president determined to become the commissioner in the states. Okay. All right. We should ask them for accountability. We understand your point of view, Mr. Buhari. I want to bring in Mr. Inkutara back to the conversation. Yes, go ahead. Yes. Yes, yes. On the issue of zoning, which he has just condemned, yes, I am one strong proponent of the best to the next. But let us also not forget that you have the best in every region. However, when we talk of zoning, for now, we cannot discard zoning. Because if we discard zoning, a particular section of the society will fail to imagine a life and back to watching the security situation in that section, which is the southeast. You see? So before we talk, before we discard zoning and say let the best, but also we also borrow from the best democracies in the world. Let us look at the United States of America, the U.S. In the U.S., you have the college system. Why do you have the college system? So that you take care of the minorities. Because if you look at the medical spread very long, certain states in America will never produce the presidency. And therefore, you might have the greatest amount of the greatest number in terms of who? Yes, you don't imagine the president in the United States of America. So you must look at the nuances in every system and in every country and adjust to it if you talk of coercion. But certain persons will believe that they have been certainly getting the game. They have imagined a life and that is when you have the protest. Like the one we have in Nigeria that has zoomed up for candidate dimension. So we have to be very sensitive to issues when we are addressing them and when we are looking at them. Who must be penetrated and talk to them. I won't say this. I must tell you the truth. Like you rightly said, is that APC might bring up a certain candidate? Philippine might bring up a certain candidate. No problem. You are also going to negotiate. I said initially, I said from the beginning, I said no. Negotiation Contabulation will not be these are key ingredients in election. You cannot dismiss and I said even the North cannot dismiss the South. That's the truth about it. Not with standard animal footprint. They can't dismiss the South. So because the worst case you know, you're not even going to have an election. Is that what you want? Crisis. Is that what you want? That is not what you want. And that's the way you sit down to never say. Ms. Angotaria. Ms. Angotaria doesn't kindly hold on. Kindly hold on. The question I was trying to ask really was when people talk about zoning and rotation of powers. First of all, that's on our constitution. And like, you know, you and Ms. Angotaria have been saying it's something that, you know, both North and South should be able to negotiate to work out how it should be, right? So when we're talking about inclusion of some certain groups, you're saying Southeast. Some other people would say Southwest. You know, when we're talking about inclusion, should we now sacrifice inclusion? You know, or rather sacrifice, you know, a competent leader on the altar of inclusion. Is that what it should be? Because a lot of other economic or political experts have come off to say that, you know, this zoning really doesn't make sense. No, no, no, no. You can't say zoning doesn't make sense. It does. Because that is what has guaranteed the continuous existence of the encasement we call now. I mean, what they're saying basically is that zoning produces zoning produces incompetent leaders. That's what they've said. I heard you clearly. I heard you clearly. Let me just say this. I heard you clearly. You asked two questions. There are three questions. One, I don't have one. Now, the second one, I have already answered it. I said in every region, every section of the society, you have competent hands. So if, for example, you say let the e-boots produce the next president, the e-boots will ensure that their best hand are presented. So that is not an argument whatsoever. In every section, in every region, you have the best hands. You also have the worst hands. So the issue of competent being sacrificed at the altar doesn't even arise. Because if you say e-boots produce, they'll produce. The knots that you are talking about, when you say, okay, you knot, you talk about numerical stress, I don't have to look for the best, and in most times they make mistakes. All right, Ahmad Buhari. Even in the south, in most times, like, I will tell you that most South Anas, most South Anas are not pleased with goodwill, goodwill, goodwill, I can tell you that, 200,000 euros. Hold on. Hold on to the same guitar. We produce the best. We make the best, we make. Sorry? Sorry? Yeah, no, I'm saying, you know, hold on. We make the best. We make the best. You have the best in every region. In every region. So that is not an excuse. That's not another way. That is the point I'm trying to make. All right. Well, like you said, then I'll suddenly become an English teacher. That is not the issue. The issue is, I see the exercising most as main prognitorials. Because it's just a strategy. Oh, we have something to hold on to right now. To use again. But if the notanals are sincerely interested in producing a sound guitar, most times the notanals don't come and say, I agree. Some might be agree because of the choice of word. And he said, giving the caliber of people that made the statement. Yes, we agree. But my God, I don't forget that there are times you have sleep on the phone. All right. Let's bring, let's bring back. That's the truth. I'm involved. That's the truth. That's the truth. That's the truth. Hold on to the same guitar. And go and make them, and maintain the status quo. Now, again, it is not in our constitution. But don't forget that when legal imperatives and the technical to coercion and legitimate imperatives, we must allow the legitimate imperatives out this time to legal imperatives. All right. Hold on. Hold on. Ms. Zainkotarya, kindly hold on. Kindly hold on. We need to bring in Ahmed Buhari here. You have military decrees. Military decrees around. Absolutely. But hold on, Ms. Zainkotarya. I want to, most of the conversations we're having now are from leaderships on, you know, different levels. You know, Northern Elders Forum, Arewa, Oraneze, Affenifera, many of them. They're different groups, you know, that supposedly speak on behalf of the people. And, you know, the conversations really starting to sound like these persons, these governors, these heads of forums, really are the ones who anoint a president. And it's no longer about the electorate. So, Ms. Ahmed Buhari, I want you to share your thoughts on what you feel from conversations you've had with people from different regions. What do you think the electorate really wants? Do you think that they're interested in the zoning arrangement? Do you think they really would like a power shift to the south? Or they really don't care as long as it's a competent person. What have your conversations been like with, you know, with the electorate? So, I just got back from my hometown yesterday evening. And to be honest, this is the front burner. Everybody is talking about what 2023 will look like. They want to know. They want people like myself to advise them. But, you know, to be honest, I decided to get the feelers from the people. The people, I would say 50 percent of them do not care what happens, right? The other 50 percent of them, honestly, sincerely do want a southern president. And this is from the north. And... Where in the north are you from? Kind of clarifying. I'm from Puntawara. I'm from Puntawara. And this is what the people want. In all honesty, some of the people would tell you, we have tried our own. Let's try something else. Hopefully things might get better. But you see, we need, for this kind of things to happen, we do sincerely need the support of the south. And the south has got to be politically intellectual right now. They have to be sensitive. They have to be smart. They have to think deeply before they make utterances. They have to think deeply on how to, you know, meet up with the different regions in the country to let them understand that, look, we mean no harm. We want to work together. We want to support you people. We want to see things happen. Bring superior argument to the table. Not pull yourself together. Have a meeting in the south. Southern governments may have a meeting in the south when you can sit down with your northern contemporaries and have the same meetings and, you know, and resolve. In fact, the governors in this country can actually sit down and resolve with themselves and pick one of themselves. And then we in the other sectors can decide we want to challenge them with our own candidate after all. It's not like we can point out to say any governor is outstanding, to be honest. So in all sincerity, I want us to take a chill pill. I want us to be sensitive and understand that the governors who came together to say they want power to be shifted to the south are only doing it for themselves and other people. And all of the things that we're doing here today, all the talks we're having, I wish we were actually focusing on how much achievement the governors in the country have achieved. And then we'll now use that yardstick to determine if we even want to see any of them at the helm of affairs when it comes to the office of the president. At the same time, we should also spread our tentacles and understand what is happening in the states. How the state governors are actually addressing issues of insecurity. How they are actually addressing issues of policy. What are they doing about local government autonomy that the federal government has actually allowed to happen. You know, all of these things are burning issues that we must put to the table so that we can deflect some of these unnecessary divisions that are being created by political warlords and make them understand that they have a responsibility to pay to the people and its audience because time is running out. Okay, so Mr. Inkotaria, we've been talking about the possibility of dialogue between both governors on these divides to decide amongst themselves what region the president will be zoned to so that everybody's speaking with one voice and there's some form of unity. But what's the likelihood? Do you see that happening anytime soon that an other than Southern governors would agree on a meeting and they won't back out just a few hours at a time. They would actually fix a time to meet across party lines, across regional lines, come together, meet and decide on a zone. Do you see that possibility? Yeah, I saw that in a time when a particular zone has been excluded from participation. Never. Even when you say the town of the south, you have the Nautana. To say the town of the north, you still have Soutanas you have meant to contest. So talking of agreeing, reaching accommodation on prevailing on the particular region not to present a candidate without the batting on the city weekend is not possible. However, I haven't said that. I strongly agree that we need to discuss because that is the only way forward and I want to tell the likes of Anne-Marie to please go back and tell this country that he has his own full mansion and tell them to dismiss and ignore the word must. They should forget about the government who sat at the round table to issue that community and consider the electorates who are here. They talk about the 30% of the people also saying let's go to the south and if you ask me, I say let's go to the south east so that we all have this sense of inclusive and everybody believes in one and that's a very large extent we can't create mess in the country because our political engine is overheated and we don't need to worsen it. So if you ask me, yes, it is extremely possible. It has always happened in the past for the Anabasin Delta image for the Anabasin Delta image, there was an negotiation. So as a side, the south east as well as the south west because of the death of NCO. So here I've got the image, of course. For a Jonathan, of course, we also have the images of Jonathan was almost concentrated, he was almost satisfied when he mentally made. And the truth is Jonathan lost in 2015 because it is believed that the Jonathan himself that is dead. But is a Jonathan free. We don't need to reach accommodation, we only to agree. All what we are saying, we are not going to war. We have to judge or we'll sit down to discuss and agree. Of course, that's a play right now. But that should not be used as a yasty. That is the point I am making. It should not be used as a yasty. Okay. It's not ungovernable, it's ungovernable. Miss Sanco Charia, Miss Sanco Charia, you've been mentioning something. Let me say this, Miss. Let me say this, Miss. Most of these problems are not represented in the interest of that too. And the reason is that the truth about it was fortunately are like the voices. And that's why we have people like, we are people like all sitting here to discuss this thing. And we have strange feelings. So I'm telling you right now, Mr. Anna, that the president should go to the south. Okay. And the truth is not the use of the word. Miss Sanco Charia, I want to further ask you. No, we just have a few seconds left on this conversation, Miss Sanco Charia. So we've been talking about zoning and it seems that most people are in favor of the south, right? But I've noticed that throughout this conversation you've specifically said I want the south but I'll prefer southeast. Are you aware that the south west also are clamoring for a Yoruba presidency or a Yoruba nation? So if we eventually settle for the south, do you see the possibility of a unity within southeast, southwest, deciding on who they should bring? Or we'll still have that division even among the southern region on which area, southwest or southeast which should now come up with the presidency? There can never be a hundred percent agreement. Even in a family, you have the settlements. There can never be a hundred percent agreement but majority do have it today. Like what is rightly said, even in the southeast he doubts, he feels the ability of the southeast don't have to really come together and present a credible candidate and that he expected them to start lobbying or to have started lobbying which is true, which I have not really seen from the southeast. I think there is certainly for vice presidency something like that. I've not really seen that. But however, we are talking of fairness here. We are setting the roadmap. We are like gatekeepers. We are talking of fairness here. If they say we should get to the south, we should also all agree just as we are arguing now. We should all agree that let it get to the southeast. I know of the south, I'm a reverse man. I know of one, two, three reverse persons that I want to contest for the presidency from the south. But I want to be fair, I want to be honest. Let it get to the southeast. All right. When we get to that, we are going to cross it because that's zone to us. When it is zone to us, then we will not have our own discussion and turn out discussion. Whether even if we say should get to the southeast, we will see a reverse man contested. We will see a Euroban man contested. No doubt about that. But if that is zone to us, then what is left is just lobbying, negotiation, contemplation, discussion. That is what is left. All right. Ms. Ingotaria. She knows at the end of the day. Open up, Ingotaria. From an advisor to the River State Government, thank you so much for your time and for sharing your thoughts with us this morning. And also Ahmed Buhari from a presidential candidate in 2019. Thank you also for your time and for speaking with us this morning. Thank you both. Thank you. All right. And this is where we will be wrapping up the discussions on the Tuesday morning. Thank you so much for sticking with us all through the breakfast. If you missed out on any part of our conversations, remember to wear to catch up at simply at Plus TV Africa on Facebook, Instagram, saying on our YouTube channel at Plus TV Africa. I am Osal Gi. I'm long. And I am Annetta. Felix saying have a great Tuesday.