 We're in Palm Springs filming Peter Fisk's chat outside in the sunshine, and I was wearing a leather shirt earlier and Frankly was starting to melt. So if you'll excuse me, I'll go topless for the rest of the interview. Oh, I think that's a wonderful thing I should have brought another shirt to wear, but I didn't plan it had well enough. So Peter when we broke there for a moment you were talking about Coulter and the Contest in San Francisco and then the onset of AIDS Please bring us up to speed on that. What was the how did the community? react to The onset of the plague. I know there was act up. Cleave Jones was very famous There was the AIDS emergency fund There were women very beautifully presented in when we rise From the women's building who came to the ward at general hospital and and just helped Tell us so give us give us some idea what caused people to do this. Where were they stepping up need? It was it was miraculous really And I mentioned that the bike clubs the men's bike clubs used to take care of each other So it was an instance of the whole community taking care of the needy And if you even even people who were not well Were we're doing work? So and everyone was doing something everyone whether it was women giving blood and taking care of men whether it was Mother clubs and and the AIDS emergency fund Raising money whether it was Godfather service and Alan Selby who took himself off to general hospital three days a week And spent the day at the at the board seven being giving massages and Somehow Alan could do it. I went twice and I just couldn't but everyone pitched in absolutely everyone and it was So miraculous because there was no government funding. There was no city funding. There was no nothing and People were dying and I don't mean a few people in the first Five years of the AIDS epidemic in San Francisco. The death toll was 10,000 in the first 15 year first 15 years It was 30,000 well the gay population of San Francisco its biggest may have been close to a hundred thousand So in 15 years 30 percent were dead. It was like a war and everyone had to have to do what they could It became known as the San Francisco model of care and this holistic approach to There was Shanti to help people prepare to die There was grieving groups There were organizations like open hand that fed people Ruth just started to feed people and and and that became you know An organization still going today for everyone who's low income or or ill and then There were Rita Rockett's brunches Rita who's just she's still around and she's just a sweet lady and She went with Alan Selby once to the ward and she thought I think I'm gonna come and make brunch Every Sunday, and we'll have a little bit of entertainment and break up the week and give them something to look forward to And she did those brunches for 15 years What we did in San Francisco was unique, but in other places the same sort of thing was happening in New York There was gay men's health crisis in Chicago. What's the name of the big charity Harold Brown? Is it Howard Brown Howard Brown? They were doing similar work in London. There were similar work going on and people Confronted with this enormous crisis the worst crisis of your life You either go under or you find a way to Do what you can I'm so impressed that In this moment of crisis we didn't go under and I think Much of what we are today is a result of what we did then In the worst crisis and if you can survive the worst crisis that's ever happened to you in or could happen to you It makes you a little hard, but it also makes you incredibly strong Tell take us back to the initial onset of AIDS in San Francisco. How did you become aware of it? very good friend named Tony Tavarosi and Tony is very well known because he was the manager of The of the toolbox and before that he was the owner of a bar called the why not Which was the first leather bar in San Francisco and opened in 1959 about the same time Chuck O opened his bar and Tony I Remember in the summer of 81 Suddenly I saw Tony and he had these dark spots all over him And he had what was called gay cancer or carpocesis sarcoma And he died within four or five weeks incredible, and it was very unpleasant and Interestingly enough in those early years when there was no treatment and we didn't know how AIDS was transmitted If somebody got a diagnosis, you know once they had the test which didn't take too long They got a diagnosis One of our chairman of the 15 a man of color Charles Durham Took a taxi to the Golden Gate Bridge and jumped off the day. He got his diagnosis And I know others from them. I know three others from the 15 who off themselves the day they got their diagnosis So there was this enormous fear, but instead of going inward People reached out and helped each other and that was miraculous and that is something I can never forget And there were so many heroes that there's no way to even to remember all of them But everyone did did such a great work that we took care of our own We did what we could And we all grew up I think because we faced this horrible Situation and but we had fun. I mean the 80s to me in the middle of The AIDS epidemic in the middle of people dying were some of the best times I've ever had You know, that's when I first started to go to Inferno And and joined Hellfire That's when I met Coulter and then when Charlie died And he moved to San Francisco. We became close Those are the happiest times of my life and everybody has happy times, but those were mine And it was the middle of the epidemic Coulter passed in 1992. Yeah, tell us about that He I only found out some of the news about that recently and I don't think he would mind My telling some of it, but I won't tell all of it He Had been in really good shape and we went to IML in 1991 And he went on his cruise The gay cruise in January of 92 and then he started to go downhill and the riot In San Francisco in Los Angeles Where the man was beaten up by the LA Rodney King Rodney King the Rodney King riots I was trying to go get morphine for Coulter who was in great pain and I went to the drugstore and because The man who was closing up the store knew me and knew Coulter He said okay, come on in and I'll take care of you and I was the last person They had already boarded up the windows on Powell Street And so that spring he didn't go to IML, but he didn't want people to know Because people could be very hurtful so he just pretended he'd gone to IML Then he was sick and very briefly in the hospital about four days and at home convalescing and They put him on he had to take food through liquid IV and that would take up eight or nine hours that he did it at night and he hated doing that and I Remember one time he went to the gym and he hadn't been in a few weeks and Somebody he knew came up to him and said oh, I heard you died And not even nicely, you know and the guy came home crying And it was just the way people were some people they'd have different ways of dealing with things but anyway He he wanted to have control of the end of his life and he did have control He decided he didn't want any deathbed Scenes and he picked who he wanted to be with him and that was shadow Morton he and shadow were very very close He They were intimate. They had a sexual relationship And I think shadow Morton is probably shadow hadn't fully transitioned So shadows the only the only girl that culture was ever with and and shadow then fully transitioned and is Very fine tattooist in San Francisco and we're in touch and culture love shadow love shadow whether whether it was shadow she or shadow he and Shadow made a wonderful transition, but culture decided Couldn't eat and his quality of life had deteriorated His parents came out for a visit and he moved next door to me then because he wanted his own place He didn't want his parents to see the week collection and the artwork and they didn't want to make me take it down so so he moved and that was two months before he died and He decided over Labor Day weekend He tried to have some food on Friday night some real food and he spent the whole next day and night sick and I think he decided then and He called up shadow and said I need you to come over this was Labor Day about 8 in the morning and Because it's now and So shadow went over and found culture in a bottle of empty pills He just got tired And so many people died in in 92 it was right before the cocktail came about And just about anyone who made it to the end of 1992 or early 1993 is still a lot today That cocktail was a lifesaver Continues to be so people are living with AIDS now not dying from AIDS although people still do die and That's when I think we've come into the more modern era this post AIDS era Certainly since the late 90s we have a different time now our normal institutions like byclubs and Bars are changing rapidly And some will survive and a lot won't Many clubs in cities have gone under and new ones have come about There's been this broad acceptance Has taken hold of of trans men and women of people of color Of women and women's issues And I think that's been a really good thing for the community, but it's been a learning Process and pre AIDS. It just didn't happen I'll flash back to To the 60s when I arrived in San Francisco The bars all had country Western music And I hated country Western music I did not like Johnny Cash, and if I heard a boy named Sue one more time. I was gonna smash the jukebox And There was a certain racist atmosphere in San Francisco in the 60s and even through The There was one bar for black men in the Castro and and men who liked black men and There was a certain spirit of not welcoming the other bars They would ask the people of color for their IDs or two IDs, and they wouldn't ask the white people And thankfully we didn't see that in the 15. I never saw that in hellfire either Prejudice But it certainly was there around the edges And I as a person of privilege I certainly could observe when people were discriminated against or treated poorly and it bothers me I don't like it and I think that's It's not something I can let go either And we'll talk about that tomorrow when we when we talk about the shift change towards transgender men But you know that's something I'm willing to fight for I will not allow people around me to make racist or sexist or Or transphobic or nasty comments. I will say something Wonderful You you alluded earlier to attending inferno for the first time. Tell us about that. Oh my It was inferno 13 and for the first time they had three sites and they had buses that went back and forth between them 24 hours a day It was a very wild event a wilder than inferno has been in recently Although I think it's getting a second wind with the return of sex, but sex everywhere They had an area called Maison Maird for for For scat They had a piss they had a they had a piss Avenue, you know they Had big tents for Bondage and and and whipping and Needle play torture You name it Some of the things went a little You know had to be pushed back there was one guy who Decided he wanted to do a And had to be told no you can't do that. Wow if it goes wrong. Yeah even with people standing by we're not Because I was experienced with the 15 I started running dungeons for them and That was a lot of fun the heart of of inferno the heart of Say Delta or the 15 is the play. Yeah, it's twisted summer camp and Keeping those dungeons safe, you know, and I helped set up the Trainings for for dungeon monitors So that you know, they would know what to do with an emergency. I always would say to everybody. Do you know where the where the What do you do with the lights go out? Do you know how to get them back on? Do you know where flashlights are? Do you know how to evacuate people here if there's a fire? What are you gonna do if the cops come? And they would just get a signal and everything would have to shut down and you go back to your cabin and cops did come to to inferno many times while I was there in fact one time a Guy died and the ambulance had to come to take him away. It wasn't during play but everything had to stop while the cops were on site and the openness of Having this twisted summer camp which we'd never had in our youth It was such a joy And Hellfire set the set the set the pattern of twist and summer camp Everybody helped out Everybody was part of it Everybody was welcome and everybody tried to get along Thumbs like the 15 and Seattle men and leather and Delta have continued that That sense of belonging that sense of brotherhood And I hope that women's events will get going so that there can be a sense of sisterhood I Think that's very important We'll see what happens. I think it's a good time. It's probably done Well, we've got desire out here in Palm Springs all good and blue to you amazing things with that and of course there's there's Imsal and the work that Pat and Sharon are doing yeah, and Making that queer inclusive is incredibly important And they're they're doing great things to further those The women's community because the richness of having something like Inferno Something like Delta something like Seattle men and others something like the 15 or avatar or or all these other groups GM SMA The richness of having that community and having a place to meet people that's safe having a place to play and I I'm happy to say that we're not losing that to Online to recon or or online people still want to meet each other They still want to go be at an event together. They still want to join a club together And I guess they still want to go to bars, but maybe not quite as much But that time in the in the early 80s that in the middle of the epidemic that things like inferno were happening or things like in San Francisco this this amazing Renaissance of caring and You know, I got to meet a whole bunch of a whole bunch of transgender soon-to-be men who were transitioning and And they were reasonably Completely accepted in San Francisco. It just was a magical place You're you're a founding member of Delta. Tell us about that. Well, Delta has everyone who joined in that first Push is a founding member, but I wasn't one of the ones who organized That was a group that included a couple of guys from the 15 and included Harold Cox Charlie Clark and and some others Jim Bruce and Delta was created to be the uninferno to be relaxed To be no sponsorships no No soliciting for money no club just an event And to keep it inexpensive and as accessible as possible. I think it's worked very well Delta's very successful and viable and vital relevant organization in the community because of it and The membership is is very diverse, but you know Hellfire's membership is pretty diverse these days, too And the 15 so all these men's groups Playgroups are doing well and Many of our community institutions like I wish we had more publications, you know drummer is sorely missed And what was the bondage magazine bound and gagged down and gagged is sorely missed And we just don't have that anymore We've got a we've got a couple of magazines that are good in their way, but they're not I'd like to see us have real a real renaissance of publishing Anyway so We're in the late 80s early 90s and The epidemic is changing. It's it's pretty much over and so the clubs and People start to put things together But there's this still this fear of sex That's only now passing because of crap in the cocktail and it's wonderful to see sex positive behaviors be acceptable and encouraged now And so, you know They started talking about old guard in the 80s. I mean nobody ever heard of old guard before them and I like to say that I'm sort of Every man and leather. I mean I've not been a prominent person, but I've been around And You know, I've never founded a club I've never I've won some awards and I was Leather Daddy of San Francisco And part of the AIDS emergency fund and president And I worked on the pride board. So I have worked, but I never could say that I'm particularly prominent but Over the course of 50 years in the community I have learned a few things and I'm happy to bring it don't bring it out and share it with people so that they can know and Have some insight and I've had a chance to help out people Not it's not like I have a class in or mentor with a rulebook or a guidebook But I like to think just this week my friend Eric Grove Who competed at IML a few years back Eric sent me a writing cease-done and said you you encouraged me to write and you encouraged me to be part of the community And my way of giving back is to send you this so that you can know what you've done I'm very proud of our community. It's full of heroes It's full of people who've gone extra miles. It's full of people who've worked Even against their own interests But for the community So for every for every crazy person or jerk that we have I think we have 10 or 20 people Who are real heroes who probably will never even be known What's your philosophy on community service? well It is not self-serving you if you're going to Be part of serving your community. It has to be unselfish. It has to be selfless You are doing it for the community not for yourself. And if you're involved with an organization It's what's best for that organization And sometimes you even have to go against what the current management might be thinking Okay, and It Takes real dedication. I think I've had burnout You do face burnout eventually at some point And then I tell people you pull back to where you're comfortable If that's doing nothing if that's just doing a little And you find people to take up the work One of the biggest mistakes leaders make in a community is they try to do it all their self And they never train anyone right and that's a big mistake Whatever I've done whether it's running Dungeons and Inferno And Delta or being on the Delta board or being on the pride board or the AIDS emergency fund board Or being president is involving new people moving on a little bit to more more German issues of today How can our community confront the needs and or the complications or the nuances of aging in The leather the gay leather community the There are big issues But I would call it a duality of issues. It's it's it's a two-way street It's it's not just how we treat aging and our aging people. It's how we treat our youth And I think it goes two ways Young people they don't want to be told what to do They want to be welcomed with however they want to conduct themselves just like we did when we were young and older people want to be accepted for themselves and not just aging an unattractive Queen that some of these young folks think they are and we have to fight that And the way to do it is to listen to each other Communicate with each other and try to have our events Diverse so for instance, we've kind of kept track of ages at Delta The age had the average age had crept up into the almost 50 Some years back about 10 years back and Gradually, we've brought that down by at least seven or eight years. It's now perhaps low 40s So there's a range of ages there There are there are guys in their 20s and even early 20s who go to Delta and there are guys in their mid 80s and Every everyone in between and the same thing has taken place at other events at at Hellfire at Inferno at the 15 Average ages have started to go down And we get it in the organizations I think if you want to have a viable organization, you have to have a range of ages and interests and in particular if you if you if you're not welcoming and If you don't let people participate and have power they will walk every time It was gmsma was a classic case. They Decided they needed to appeal to young men and so they offered a junior membership for $10 a year Where full membership was about 50? Oh, I see and they had special events But they had no power in the organization and eventually they all walked And they didn't know how to cope so they didn't do anything to attract anyone and kind of like the bike club They were not very friendly if you showed up there and they were doing the same programs by the same people Year after year decade after decade won't quite but To the point where no one would work anymore and they went under and that's what happened to most of the bike clubs And I've I've seen it San Francisco the AIDS charities these days have been combining because they can't afford to Have all the employees when money is is going money available has to go to Treatment and to patient services not to salaries so I Think there's a great respect for elders in the community But I want to see beyond that respect. I want people to look at me as another human being And they don't have to play with me unless they're interested But I don't want to feel like I'm Unwelcome and I certainly don't want young people to feel they're You've alluded earlier to the concept of old guard new guard What are your thoughts on these things? Well first off old guard never existed There's no council of elders. It's become a fun joke. It really has They couldn't even figure out which where to wear your your Your chain on your boot or your leather jacket on the east coast in the 60s You you wore if you were top you wore your chain and on your leather jacket and chain on your boot on the right And in California the opposite on the left And so there was a there was this wide divergence between communities and histories So there was no one old guard period and there were Guy Baldwin and and Gail Rubin have spoken about families often veterans of World War two who had people in their orbit their boy their friends enough to fill a dinner table, you know on weekends and And that's how you learned and that's how you earned your leather And that's this concept of burning your leather that was around to a certain extent But no there was no such thing as protocols. Nobody even heard that word until the 80s And I'm not putting them down because if that's what you're into go for it And there are many people I know who have wonderful times with DS relationships or or MS relationships and so if that's what you want go for it, but Don't tell me that that there was This old guard and this Council of Elders and and all this when there wasn't yeah different different families did things different ways I knew guy and I knew I Several different families in the Leather scene in San Francisco in the 60s and 70s And they did have their own ways of doing things, but it went didn't go beyond those families and Actually, I think of myself I wouldn't want to be boxed into old guard or new guard You know, I'm sort of the no guard Okay, I really don't believe in the concept It made a nice Speech And it it's an interesting topic I think the real topic is how do you get people to interact with each other and Build a sense of community and Creating old guard and new guard perhaps help with that, but I think the time for it is over now I think it's beyond that now So what advice do you have for people new to this community? Get in and get to know people Get friends If you want to get something done remember the advice of Harvey milk Get allies Be nice about it but be firm and Know very clearly what you want to do There's room for everyone in this community There's still prejudices of all sorts income is one of them If you don't have money in the leather community, you're kind of it's difficult so Get involved there's a real nice community here and you could be part of it beautiful