 Humanity faces a lot of problems, smaller problems such as a dead battery on your telephone, but also bigger problems, so-called wicked problems. And Tobuque University offers the GMSI program, Global Management of Social Issues, and Global Management of Social Issues deals with wicked problems. And today we're going to talk about migration. Why do people leave everything behind to go somewhere else and make a better life? And we're going to talk about migration with Dr. Jörg Raap. He's from Germany and he's the associate professor of the Department of Organizational Studies, but he is also the educational director of the GMSI program and his main focuses are governance and the effectiveness of networks. Second, we have a second-year student, Panna Kerti. She's born in Hungary, but currently studying here at Tilburg. She is a chairwoman of the International Student Advisory Platform and she's focused on migration and in the future wants to work with minor unaccompanied refugees. And last but not least, we have a guy from Poland, Adam Jetschik, a second-year student of the GMSI program as well. He's the president of MUN Tilburg, the Model United Nations here in Tilburg, and he's migrated a lot. You've lived in Kuwait, in Egypt, so you're a migrant yourself. Adam, what was the first thing that you struck as an immigrant here at Tilburg? I think the openness of the society and I think that was something something that I value really greatly and I think the community feeling and the way people interact with one another is something the Netherlands and Tilburg can be very proud of. So we can be proud of ourselves. We're an open society. Nice. Panna, you came from Hungary but why do you want to work with the unaccompanied minor refugees? Why that specific group? My parents' profession is related to working with children as well and I'm also specifically interested in working with those who are the most vulnerable in society and those children who are in such a vulnerable situation that they are without parents and at the same time they don't really have resources and it's really difficult for them to reach out to the right authorities. Make the world a better place for these children. And of course, Dr. Jurgaap, a wicked problem if you can give a 22nd lecture of wicked problems. What is a wicked problem? Well, a wicked problem is a very complex organizational or policy problem like, for example, migration, poverty, climate change and they are characterized by, let's say, three dimensions. One that a lot of problem dimensions are interrelated and that creates complexity. Then there's usually uncertainty about the knowledge base. Why do we have this problem and about certain outcomes if we do something? And then very often there is what we call value divergence. So different parties that are connected to the problem, they have different values and therefore perceive the problem quite differently. And can they be solved the wicked problem? Is there a solution for wicked problems? Well, there is, it's not like a problem is wicked or not. There are different levels. But if you say, for example, poverty or migration, that cannot be solved as if we take certain policy measures and then the problems are just gone. But usually we say we can do better or worse in coping with them. So limit the negative consequences. The problem will be there, but we can cope with them better in the future. And we're going to talk about migration and of course, you all are immigrants because you came from a different country to the Netherlands. Pano, why is migration a wicked problem? Well, I would say it has a lot of different aspects why it is so wicked. If you think about, you know, not only the economic aspects of integration, but also we can think about, you know, the cultural ones. And these are very different things. And it requires a lot of effort from the immigrant to be able to integrate within the society. But it also requires a lot of efforts from the society to integrate that newcomer to the society. So I think this is a really interesting issue because I do believe that it's very two-sided. And at the same time, you know, it's something that's very unique because it's very culturally enriching as well. So I think it also has its positive and negative size and it's really interesting to go in depth in that and do research in this field. Yeah, you can see with the policy discourse in different countries right now, what integration is, is already quite contested. Some people basically say, well, you have to do the language, you have to accept the culture. Well, other people say, well, you know, as long as you follow the law, then you're fine. Yeah, I think with migration, the biggest problem is the definition problem. There's quite a lot of disagreement as to what the problem with migration actually is or who a migrant or refugee is. And that is why I think policymakers are struggling with coming with any sort of solution because some believe that you're only a refugee in the first country that you arrive in. Others believe that if you move on, you become an economic migrant and so on and so forth. So that in itself is a problem already. And how do you guys discuss the definition of migration in class or in your lectures? Well, I think it's very, very important to say that within global management of social issues, it's really important that we have a really good theoretical background, meaning that, you know, defining these concepts is what we start within the first place. So seeing what a migrant is, who a migrant is, and what a refugee is, and seeing the difficulties is not only connected to one field of social sciences, but it's also connected to international law. It's also connected to economics. Looking into these different aspects is very important. And seeing that, for example, you know, refugees, they come from a place where, you know, they are literally threatened, you know, they are in very risk of their lives. And being a migrant, being an economic migrant, is more about looking for better opportunities and living with those opportunities and trying to, you know, reach them by migrating to a different country or a different area, if you are talking about, you know, within country migration. You see that in Europe, for instance, we mostly focus in the media on the negative sides of migration, because you said there are a lot of positive sides as well. How is that not helping the problem, the focusing on the negative side of migration? I think it could be an issue, like it could be a social issue in the sense that sometimes people are afraid to get to know new cultures. So, obviously, it requires a really open society to be able to welcome migrants and, you know, find those aspects of migration, you know, enriching that they are, you know, and seeing that a diverse community and a diverse workforce, for example, at a workplace can really contribute to tackling issues and solving issues in different ways. And seeing those different perceptions can be really enriching, in my opinion. And I think if a society is being able to see that, then they are going to be able to cope with the integration issues as well. So, we should say we should start with changing the society, which is there, changing the Dutch views on migration. I think this is more of an internal change. So, you cannot really change society, but I do believe that by introducing society to people who are, you know, economic migrants or refugees as well, which is also an issue, you know, by getting to know them and organizing mentor programs or volunteer programs, where the members of the society can work with the newcomers, then they can really see those great aspects of, you know, getting to know new people from different cultures. Which is difficult, Adam. I don't think you can necessarily, or you don't necessarily have to change society in itself. I think what is important to take a look at is the narrative that is being created by politicians, policymakers, but also individuals within society and community themselves. Because if this negative narrative is there, if we label migrants or refugees as evil, as bad, as foreign, then stereotypes are created. If negative stereotypes are created, then refugees and migrants alike will indeed be seen in a negative light by the majority of people. And I think what is important to realize for society, for communities, for the host community, is that these people are just as normal and very similar to us. The only difference is that they're a bit less fortunate. They happen to live in a country, for example, where there's a civil war going on, or in poor regions and areas of the world, and we being in a more fortunate position, we should do everything in our power to help them. But you say I'm unfortunate? Because, I mean, I don't do not know your background, but it seems you're not poor, you didn't come from a war zone, so there are also the not unfortunate people, but just normal migrants. But still, that is a problem. I think it's about the narrative, as Adam said. So, for example, within the program, we learned about intergroup stress theory, which is basically a theory, where, you know, by creating narrative, you know, social leaders, politicians, you know, someone in your community who is more influential, if they create a narrative, then the society can experience, you know, symbolic threat. So, that's not necessarily a real threat. It can be symbolic, you know, like, for example, the narrative that they had in Eastern Europe during the refugee crisis, oh, you know, refugees are going to take your jobs. They are going to, you know, I don't know, like, you know, decrease social security. But those are mostly political statements. Yeah, they are going to take your job. The right-wing politicians often say that. But how can you guys, with your studies and with your background, change that in order to make, well, maybe a solution for this problem? I think it's about doing exact data and very specific facts. I think, by research, we can really get a good overview of what's exactly happening and not just, you know, and politicians, they can maybe see those numbers and then they may be there, it can affect their policies, obviously. So, by actually having facts, you know, like looking into those facts and creating research and then doing research in that, that can be really influential, I think, in your research yourself. Do you provide your data to the politicians involved? Well, in my field of expertise, yes, we do. But I wanted to say, you know, we do not deny in the course, for example, on migration that there are problems. That is very important. And I think, especially right now, the European countries can do much better than they do right now in what I said earlier, coping with these issues and avoid negative repercussions for people that migrate, but also for the host societies. I see you guys nodding. Yes, you totally agree with what's going on right now. They can do better. Yeah, very much. What's the first thing that they should change? What should they do? I think coming back to what we were talking about, I think the first thing, well, there are two things, actually. First is the definition and then getting rid of these negative stereotypes. Because I think that is the first, if the community, if the society, if normal individuals in the host country see that the majority of these refugees are normal people who are just looking for a better life, looking to flee away from war and persecution, if people see that, then they will be more open to help. Politicians can't do it on their own. They do need the support of community and local communities, local society. And in order for that support to be there, that narrative has to change. And I think that's a key starting point. A key starting point. Do you agree, Panhard? Do you say no, no, we shouldn't talk about the narrative? We should go a completely different way. I do agree with Adam to some extent. I do believe that it is very much dependent on local communities. Because if we look at, for example, the integration system of the Netherlands with refugees, we can see how refugees are integrated in society in such a way that they are distributed across the country. Now, for example, in Hungary, there are three refugee centres where all those refugees who came during the European refugee crisis in 2015, they were situated in three of those refugee camps. Here in the Netherlands, one city integration starts. And there are big cities, right? Exactly. Not even big cities. It's more like small cities with a big refugee camp, you know. And maybe the population can be, you know, afraid and also, you know, it's also about the narrative. But if local communities also look into, okay, you know, we have this many refugees, we need to look into with societies which local communities they could be fit in, I think that could be a really good facilitator for integration. And here, because in the program, of course, you focus on wicked problems, but because it's such a broad and diverse problem, where do you guys start? Do you start with a solution or do you start with just small steps, which a small step for a human, but a giant leap from mankind? Well, as in all sort of scientific inquiry, we start with a good analysis of the reasons and the problems. And in the course, for example, we talk about different reasons to migrate. There are pull factors, but there are also push factors, and you can see that at the moment. And they are very diverse, and sometimes they are interrelated, and that makes it complex. But first, students have to learn different theories about why people migrate, and migration has been of all times and will be of all times. So it's quite important to understand the different perspective and the different reasons before we move on to, okay, what can we then do about it? And what can we do about it? From a scientific perspective, how can we cope with the migration problem in Europe, for instance? Well, I think there's the migration problem doesn't exist. I think that's where we have to start and say, okay, what are the different, why are the different groups and different people want to come to Europe? You have, of course, a civil war in Syria, but that's different from sub-Saharan Africa, where people sometimes also flee because of military conflicts, but also because they seek a better life. And therefore, if it's improving the economic conditions and societal conditions in these countries, Europe has to do more to support these, to support and develop these countries. Also, for example, with better trade deals, for example, that so far have been very often in favor of the Europeans. Well, yeah, we want to keep the wealth in Europe. As people say, just how do you work with the solution? Is there a solution for such a broad problem? Well, I think that's one of the characteristics of a wicked problem, that there isn't sort of one quick solution to it. And even if there would be a solution or attempt at it, it's a one-shot operation, meaning that there's just one attempt at it and you can't go back and improve it. And I think when it comes to migration, we have to, as has been said before, we have to learn to cope with it rather than by all means, at all means, try to solve it within one day, because that's just not going to happen. So we should look for solutions in the sense that, or ways rather, in which we can cope with this large influx of migrants. And then, in the long term, look for sustainable answers to the problem. And I think primarily, and this adds to the complexity, of course, is to look at the root cause of migration. So that's something that has been really discussed lately. Pana, your opinion on this? I think integration has different levels, right? So if you think about that, like, you know, if a migrant or refugee arrives to a country, after, you know, getting their refugee status or, like, you know, starting their life here, there is different levels they can achieve, you know, finding employment, also, you know, learning the language, you know, maybe, you know, starting families here. There are different levels of migration and integration in general. And I do think that the most important part of that is cultural integration. And we need to look into short-term and long-term procedures within this. And, you know, we need to look into those solutions, because looking at one of those is not going to lead to the required results. One important thing I think we have to mention is, because we're hearing quite a lot of solutions being talked about here, we also have to remember that we cannot do 20 things at once. Because we start trying to solve integration, trying to solve poverty, trying to solve sort of the potential terrorist threat that is being talked about. And then we won't resolve anything. So I think what is important, when it comes to talking about potential solutions or coping strategies, is pick one focus point as a starting point. And then move on from there and not do 20 things at once. And how does that work in a lecture? Because you are second-year students, you have the course, you have had the course Wicked Problems 101, for instance. Where do you guys start? You get the topic, okay, this is migration, then what? What's the next step? As Dr. Raab mentioned it before, first look into the root causes. And then we also look at the theoretical framework that could be applied to the social phenomena. After this you always look into how this could be solved based on different literature. So this is very much theoretical. But at the same time we also get a lot of group assignments and individual assignments that we can take home and then write them at home and work on them in groups. So this way we can kind of implement our own ideas within these papers. So that's a really practical way of applying our knowledge that we learned in the lecture. So I think this theoretical and practical basis really gives a good balance to the program. For example, in the course Wicked Problems 202, which is on migration, we ended with a policy brief, which is not an academic paper, but basically a summary for an imaginary EU commissioner that has to enter a meeting and needs to be briefed on a certain topic. Very concise, short, and students had to write that within 10 days and then present it. And maybe you can talk a little bit what topic you would like. What was your policy for the UN commissioner? Well, first of all, let me just give you a bit of background as to what the topic that we chose to focus on was. And we, Pan and I and another colleague of ours, we decided to focus on the issue of integration. And we chose Germany as a focus country. And the reason for that is because what we can see with this high influx of Syrian refugees is that they have a focus country that they want to go to and that country is Germany. Currently, there are over five million refugees spread around countries worldwide. Germany is the fourth, in absolute terms, fourth country in terms of amounts of Syrian refugees. So we focused on integration and we identified three key issues, segregated housing, education and obviously the cultural differences. And Pana, perhaps you can talk a bit about the recommendations. Yeah, so as the conclusion of the policy brief after looking at the issue, reflecting on that we came up with recommendations. And these recommendations are based on literature from UNHCR also from other refugee agencies who work with these refugees. And they think that these are policies that should be implemented in order to enable integration. So we looked at these three factors. For example, we looked at if refugees would have lower limits of being able to get social housing, that would really help them with starting a new life and really have that good basis of having a house. Also we looked into education where sometimes it is a tendency that sometimes the host national children bully, for example, those who come to their school even though those kids already speak the language, for example. That can be a big issue and giving cultural awareness trainings in that can really help the kids to see how culturally enriching it is that they are from different cultures. Also, like looking into education in general, we really need to be distinctive between the education of children and the education of adults. So basically we looked into all of these issues and we tried to recommend using our own recommendations and using some literature. And yeah, honestly, I think it turned out quite good. It was a very interesting quote. We can ask because we've got the teacher at the table. Yeah, I will not tell anything about the truth. You won't tell anything about the truth. Moment of truth. Moment of truth. Well, is there a good chance to pass in the course? Well, that's already settled then. Is there one question that your students would ask your teacher in a lecture, just as an example. Is there a question that you would like to ask Dr. Jurgraap, considering migration, of course? I would personally ask because I'm really interested in the social aspect and the cultural aspect of integration. What do you think is the best facilitator of of cultural integration in general? Looking at all countries. What do you mean with facilitator? I mean, like do you think it's learning the language? Do you think it's like being able to enter the labor market? What do you think is the best way to kind of be more part of society? Well, I think if you look at the discussions and the experiences that especially also European countries have made in the last years, I think language is key. And I think this is something that also the Netherlands have now changed the policy on, also Germany. In the beginning, the countries didn't really look too much into maybe even forcing people to learn the language. And that is a big barrier because without speaking the language, you also, it's very hard to enter the labor market. And then people very often have to, if they can enter the labor market, work way below their qualification levels. And the countries also lose human capital, quite frankly. So I think it's, you know, from both sides, it's, I think they have interest in learning the languages. And I think there's also something European countries can still improve because if you look at the Netherlands, for example, there's still discussion about how to offer these language courses when, how much pressure is behind it, who is actually giving them what's the qualification of the teaching personnel. But I think it's worth the investment there because it will reduce a lot of costs later. Thank you. And the human capital which is in the refugees or in the migrants is, we can benefit from it as well. So language is key. Adam, have you got a question? Yes, actually. Recently, the European Union and Turkey obviously struck a deal to where Turkey would host a large amount of refugees and I just wanted to ask from an academic or scientific perspective, do you think that's a sustainable solution and do you think more such deals are necessary or should we look elsewhere? That's a very difficult question also because it's also... You're the expert on wicked problems. Yeah, that's true. There you go. But there you can, I think it's a very good example of why migration is a wicked problem because it's a, especially also with Turkey and with Libya at the moment. It's an enormous dilemma for all sorts of reasons. The situation in these countries and how refugees are treated there. But I think in terms of getting control of the situation again, I think it was unavoidable because I mean, even if you would like from a moral standpoint to welcome everybody here in Europe, if societies are overburdened with sort of welcoming and then really hosting these people, it's counterproductive. So I do think the nation states have to or they did have to gain control again over their borders. And I think the Turkey deal with other measures achieved that. Now, should we stay there? No. I think now the question is, okay, we have stabilized the situation. So how can we alleviate the problems in sort of the periphery of Europe? And how can we set up a system that we can sort of organize a controlled influx of people from different groups into Europe? So at that point, would it be fair to, at that particular moment when it was signed that deal, what is it fair to call the necessary evil? Yeah. I mean, that's sort of the wicked problems. There are no sort of best solutions. There are also only just coping solutions. Yeah, they're coping so they're second best solutions. And Pana, is this the way it works in a lecture? Yeah, we can always ask questions. So I think that's very nice that we can really interact with the teachers and they are also really open to us to come in there free hours. We can always make appointments if we have any questions. So I do think that that's a really interactive way of learning. And of course, you get the opportunity to ask one question to the students. So, well, let's see if they're great is as good as the policy that they just invented. Well, the question I would ask is, I mean, if the predictions are correct, population growth in Africa will be enormous in the next 30 years. So your generation will be confronted with that very likely. So what should we do about it? That's a very difficult question. That's a very good question. I do think that there is going to be several waves of migration in the future, you know, like this one now and then, you know, like the one after the Second World War. But I do think it is really difficult to say what's the best solution for that. But maybe if we reflect on what we learned in the course, I would personally say because I'm very much like, you know, focused on social integration is that by maybe, you know, helping those people there to, to those communities there to, you know, be, you know, to engage in entrepreneurship and then start their own businesses and maybe that way integrating not necessarily only European societies but only all over the world, I think that maybe could be a good facilitator of, you know, equalized population density. I think because, as you say, we already know that we will experience this potential huge population growth in the future and we already have the statistics and we can predict it. We can do something right now. So first thing is not to wait 10, 15 years but act right now and I think we should do everything in our power to limit the push factors for migration. So do everything in our power to ensure that those people will want to stay in their home countries in Africa or wherever it may be and that they will want to develop their countries from their country if I can put it that way. Now, whether that is in economic aid whether that is whether that involves going there and, you know, constructing schools, hospitals, or what have you, that's open for discussion but I think what is important to realize is that we shouldn't wait. If we know that something's going to happen we should act now. I do agree with Adam on that, that, you know, planning ahead is really important and, you know, not only, you know, I think economic growth can be a good answer to population growth in the sense that, you know, enabling those communities to be self-sustainable is very important. Did they pass? Yeah, I would say. Yeah, yeah. Of course the future is unpredictable and we can never see where we end up but we can ask you where do you guys want to end up? What are you going to do when you graduate it? Very good question. I would personally love to work in in humanitarian response team. I personally find it really interesting. That's one of my, because I find it a very dynamic environment and something, I love working with people so I do find that very important but on the other hand I would very much like to work in a more policy-making role of helping children. So the United Nations somewhere. Maybe an international organization, yeah, we will see how it goes but I'm interested in these two fields and I'm still kind of doubting which way I would like to go. Well, you still got a couple of years to go. Adam, what are you going to do? It's probably is the most difficult question of this entire discussion if I can be completely honest. Okay, then we'll focus on that discussion later. No, what if you say the first thing that's on your mind. I think something to do with international relations but with globalization and sort of the development of sustainable education. Development of sustainable education. Something to do with that, yeah. What's your next research going to be? What's the next thing you're going to do? Well, right now I'm in a project with the Dutch organization that is basically combating infectious diseases. The Rijksinstitut van Vox was founded in Milieu so which is sort of the Dutch equivalent of the CDC. Language is key, ladies and gentlemen. Yes. And we are looking basically into how do different organizations in the Netherlands in the public health sector and beyond react to new viruses if they come here. And we developed two scenarios. Fictitious but realistic scenarios and asked, did a questionnaire about where do these organizations get their information from? What would they need? What would be their role? And we analyzed that sort of as an assessment what we can improve in terms of response to these kind of new threats. New outbreaks, yeah. So just like the movie, outbreak. Well, good luck, all of you. Thank you very much. Migration. Just one example, one wicked problem that is being dealt with within the GMSI program. So thank you very much for your insights. Thank you for watching. And well, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for the pleasure. Thank you.