 in it. We are back, but I'm going to bother trying to point because there's two other people on the screen and I will 100% f that up. So welcome back, folks. Here we are again for another monthly episode of whatever it is we like to talk about. Today we're going to talk about what is recovery, I had to look at the screen, what does recovery look and feel like? My head always by Lauren Rosen. You guys know Lauren by now. She's a practicing therapist in LA in the LA area, specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorder at OCD. And then I don't know if you could see it below us. I guess it's the same for everybody. It's Kelly Frankie, otherwise known as the OCD therapist on Instagram. Hey, Cal. Hi. Thanks for having me on. You're very welcome. You're welcome anytime. And for anyone who's just joining us from our pages, we always have to give a shout to our fearless leader here, the one, the only Drulan Salata, who is the dot anxious dot truth. But yeah, most most people know you because of course this is your channel. So but if you're joining minor Kelly's, he's fantastic. You guys could post it on your YouTube or whatever it is. We'll do that. That's true. I have some of them. Oh, cool. Okay. So I'll put everybody's names up on the screen later on so you guys can follow along with these two fabulous human beings. Today's topic, if you choose to accept it is what does recovery look and feel like? So maybe we should let Kelly start as our honored guest here for half hour, take it away. Well, actually, we kind of talked about this last week in our own podcast. And I think it's really important to establish the fact that people think recovery means I'm not going to have intrusive thoughts and I'm not going to feel anxious. So out of the gates, just establishing that is that recovery will include intrusive thoughts and it will include anxiety and that we really measure recovery based on how you're responding to those things. And that's pretty common in the OCD world. I'm never going to have these thoughts again, right? Yeah, no. I don't know. That depends. Are you still going to be alive? Because as long as you're alive, you're probably still having the thoughts, lots of them actually. Right. So then I'll lead right into a question then because I think we've acknowledged this and most of the time we do talk about it, all human brains create what, for some people, become really sticky and nasty and scary thoughts. Like, you know, that 13,000 volt bus board is right there. I could just grab that. I've had that thought like on old construction sites when I was in architecture or I could just step off the top of the Trump International Plaza. 92 stories in the air. I could do that. You could. You have two legs that work. I decided to do that right now. So is it correct in saying that part of that is like, you may have, because all humans have those kind of thoughts from time to time. They don't go away forever. No. I think you certainly can, through treatment, I think you certainly can reduce the intensity and the amount. But I would say don't go into it with the goal of that being in the forefront. It's rather of like a side effect of learning how to manage anxiety. I don't know, Lauren, if you want to say it in a different way. Yeah. I think it completely connects to the first point that you were talking about and that we're trying to develop a different relationship with these thoughts, that it's really down recovery instead of looking like no thoughts, no feelings, unfortunately, well, fortunately, depending, is that it's about willingness and how willing are you to have these experiences because the problem isn't the experiences. It's the fact that we're so bound to not having them, like that this is the only way life can be good, which gets us all stuck trying to get rid of them with all sorts of behaviors, whether that's we're talking about an agoraphobia, not leading your home, or we're talking about ruminating endlessly about whether or not you want to murder your family in Homo City. Yep. Makes sense. I get asked all the time in sort of my thing, do you ever have panic attacks? And I'll say like, I don't know, maybe once a year I might have a panic attack and some people will say, well, you're not recovered. Oh, no. And how could you be saying you're not recovered? Like, no, no, no, no, when did I ever say that you would never, ever, ever have a panic attack? I know they want to hear that. But it's one of the hardest things for me to convey is, well, then how could you say you're recovered? And I will say, because I simply don't care if I have a panic attack or not. Yeah, the same in your it's similar to like, when people say, how do you stop a panic attack? You don't actually don't, you go right through that sucker. And, and the same is true with recovery is like, we're not stopping this experience. We're just moving through it. Yeah. And he said, I simply don't care. That's it is like, we go, cool, we'll find out. What sucks about that, I always find is you can't deny that the happy secondary effect of that is when you kind of don't care, then they sort of don't happen. It's just not guaranteed that they will never happen. Correct. Well, the more that you want them not to happen, the less that that experience of accepting them and therefore them becoming less frequent will happen. Yeah. I actually had it explained to me in an interesting way once, which is that it's not that they become less frequent per se. It's that when they come up, they don't register for you because you're not bothered by them, which I'm sure it's some sort of balance between those two things. But isn't that an interesting way to think about it? It's like, because of what you were saying that like, when they do come up, it doesn't matter to you anymore. That that is just like, it's a non event. And so your recollection over time is that they're just not happening. Right? That would be the case if somebody is dealing with intrusive thoughts, you think, or those that you relate to are compulsions. And I also think related to anxiety thoughts and other disorders. Right. It's all kind of the same. We've talked about this to you and I before, like the distinction is a lot. Yeah. So I like to say it was in a conversation yesterday with somebody who would say, I'm pretty much about 95% recovered. And he wound up in a situation and it's actually next week's podcast that you guys it's in the past if you're watching this, but anyway, he was triggered, you know, air quotes triggered by a thing that he saw on the news, which brought him back to one of his primary fears. And he described it so well as like the time that that would have taken a week away from my life in the past. Yeah. It took like a 30 minutes. That's it. That's what we want to hear. Yeah. That's where we're like, yes, recovery is happening. This is fantastic. See how he responded. And even just how he experienced it and explained it, it wasn't like, oh, I'm so frustrated that I took me this long. He framed it as it used to be this. Look how far I've come. Look what I can do. So a lot of it is attitude, you know, and an acceptance of like, well, why wouldn't I be afraid of that? It's just, you know, that's a disturbing thing to see happen to somebody and gonna have a human reaction to that. All right. Maybe my reaction is a little stronger than other people's would, but I was out of it in 30 or 45 minutes. I was good to go again, which I think that's what recovery to me. That's what it looks like. My personal recovery looks like that. Like people ask, how could you not care? Well, I do care, but I care for just a few seconds for six months in a row. Does that make sense? Totally. Yeah. Yeah. It's all on the pivot, right? It's all in how quickly you maneuver back to acceptance as opposed to resistance. Yeah, that's true. We're building that muscle. But then, okay. So there's that piece of recovery. Like what recovery actually looks like is that you're going to have thoughts, you're going to have feelings. What about the element of doing recovery perfectly? Because I think that that often comes up for people as like, well, if I'm really in recovery, then I'm never going to do a compulsion or safety behavior, which I don't know. I don't know about YouTube. Well, I think I know about YouTube. She definitely can speak for me. I know her. I'm pretty sure I have a feeling, but nobody does it perfectly. I've yet to see a client do it perfectly. And I think if you try to be so vigilant that you're doing it without compulsions or without safety behaviors, then it becomes another point of fixation. Yes. It becomes the obsessing on obsessing, obsessing on the fact that I'm having, you know, another intrusive thought instead of saying, Oh, wow, I'm getting less stuck in the content. So they're just like tracking every single thing that happens and how intense it was and how long it lasted is like, well, that's a surefire way to get more stuck. That's that checking and evaluation mechanism that always keeps looping back to say, is it working? Is it working? Right. Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And if it doesn't, if I don't judge it as working, then I'm going to question whether I did it right. What can I do different? What do I do wrong? I hear that all the time. Oh, yeah. Like, I don't know, dude, you described a text book response. What was wrong in that every day? Well, and the expectation that if I did it the way my therapist taught me how to do it and it still doesn't change, then what does that mean? Like normally it works like it quote unquote works. Like normally it doesn't bother me or it'll eventually go down. How come two days later, I'm still upset by it? Hmm. Same. Respond the same protocol, right? People are always looking for it should look this way. And there's like this exact piece of how to do it. Yet humans and their daily living is so complex. It's hard to measure that. I mean, I gotta say, when you're under stress, Lauren, like, you know, the shit is hitting the fan. It's not as easy to do it. Oh, no, is that what you're saying? Every single day. Well, and that's the thing is, it's like, how can I use this to get rid of anxiety? And that's where, okay, so we've been talking about, I'm not bothered by this. But isn't it that we get better at being bothered? Right, getting more comfortable in the discomfort of it. Oh, that's a good question. Well, and we've done this that the whole like, well, let's do a little guru, you know, sound bite here. It's like, it's not, it's not getting, it's not not feeling it's getting better at feeling. Yes. We work that out. Yeah. Yeah. I find myself in that sometimes when I'm having a particularly I bite off more than I could chew the typical for me. I'm not sleeping. I'm taking on a million projects. And I'll feel that sometimes. But I would hope you would. Yeah, I can write. I'm not a robot. Contrary to popular belief, I have, maybe why not bleed? Liar. Take my face off like this. Oh, shit. That was freak. Matrix. Yeah, total matrix shit. But I will feel that. And when I do feel it, I can acknowledge like, Oh, that's right. I knew I should. I shouldn't have gone to bed at 2am. I should have said no to this project. I should have pushed the deadline out a week. I guess I'm just going to feel like this today. I'll do the best I can today. Well, and people who are fixated on recovery might go, well, I slept fine. I ate well. I worked out. There's no life stressors. Why in the hell do I still feel anxious? Well, because you just feel anxious. Come on. Let's go. Keep going. Yeah. It's a part of the human experience, right? Right. It's also part of the human sorry experience to figure things out, right? Like our minds are these intense problem-solving machines. So it's easy to have compassion for the person that's trying to also make sense of why they feel anxious. Yeah. Yeah. And then we normalize that. Fixing fixing fixing pathologizing and negative mood or a negative thought or negative emotion. We got to fix it. We should be able to fix that. Get out of that. I mean, yeah, why? I sure that would be great. But why is that our automatic response? This is the thing that we must fix. Yeah. Yeah. It's a problem. Well, because we're good problem-solvers. I think that that's one of the one thing that anecdotally anyway I see across everyone with anxiety disorders is that generally they're pretty high-achieving people, right? And that they've responded very well to one MO, which is, ah, there's a problem. Let's figure out how to solve it. And then there's this thing that you don't like, like a feeling. And it's like, well, ready, I can solve this. And I'm going to do all of it. Then you get stuck trying to solve it because you can't solve feelings. It doesn't work. No, there's no formula. Yeah. And that sucks. And it's funny because one of the words that I regret, I use that phrase when I wrote The Anxious Truth, I kept saying, solve this problem. I really want to do it. I can't, but I'm going to fix that in another way. I worry about that myself. Like, future me be like, will I take that language back? I have that thought. Yeah. I regret having written that. But I thought of it that way at first when I was like, I can solve it. I know what to do. I had to discover, like, in a very real sense, I didn't know what to do at all. I was at the office quoted what the hell it is. Like, in a real sense, I had no idea what to do, which is true. I had to accept the recovery looks whatever it looks like today. And that's as good as it's going to get today. That's okay. Right. What can I learn from today was a big part of my recovery. What can I learn from this? I love that. Yeah, I think that's a very resilient building statement. Took a while to get there though. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was that growth mindset is it's everything. It is. Because it's no longer about solving the problem. It's about how, how can I just continue to get better at navigating this problem? Yeah. And accepting that these things are going to happen. I can call them problems if I want. So I could try to make them not happen, but I'm failing at that miserably. So at some point, yeah, you know, to me was I had to come to that realization as part of what did recovery look like? I one of the things I had to do was discover I cannot. I can't engineer my life. I just can't do it. It doesn't happen that way. So I do think that there is some amount of formula and that's there are ways that you can make it worse, right? There are ways like compulsive behavior is one part of the formula. It's like, we want to, you know, reduce as much as possible and we can't get rid of it entirely, like Lauren was saying. But if you're going to spend hours a day and you're choosing to try to control it, figure it out, engage in some type of compulsive behavior, then yeah, chances are that's not contributing to how you're going to learn anything different to the next day. So there's stop looking. There's not necessarily a formula for making it better, but there sure is a formula for making it worse. Yeah. That's not eating well, sleeping three hours, adding so much more stress to your plate. Here's the other piece though, right? We can't get, and this is what we were saying before, is that you can't get too rigid about that either because there are some people who are like, well, I'm not getting exactly eight hours of sleep. And so I'm going to have a relapse. It's like, well, okay, but if you're life, if you're going out to a big party and celebrating and you stay out until three o'clock in the morning, then that's part of what life is all about. Would I advocate for you doing that consistently? Kind of like what Kelly was just saying, like, no, I'm not going to advocate for people doing that or not eating regularly or, you know, compulsing or doing safety behaviors on a regular basis because generally speaking, over time, that's what we're building. We're building unhealth. That's a word. Unhealth. Unhealth is officially in there now. Unhealth. You're welcome. It's all good. Like you can cultivate your wellness or you can cultivate your unwellness, right? Like that's essentially culture. But that process of going toward recovering away from the icky stuff would say that, well, I can be open to more experiences now because my interpretation of them are different. Oh, I didn't sleep. I only slept four hours. I said, I'm going to be a mess tomorrow, as opposed to, oh, I'm going to that concert and I'm going to be dragging tomorrow, but it's so worth it. So how come that's okay? But the other side isn't okay. So do you guys find that your experience is a little wider and richer? Like, yeah, it's okay. I can go toward this thing. I would have never allowed, never. Absolutely. 100%. I think about the conference in Denver where Lauren and I presented way too many. Oh my god. And is that what you're going to call it? Yeah. No, I want to call it pull a drew because we didn't get enough sleep and we worked our asses off. It was, yeah, I mean, not eating enough food because it was like back to back to back, not sleeping. Like at some point at five o'clock every day, we would start laughing hysterically, like just like insanity. Like really, like it was true, like no reason. We couldn't stop. And we couldn't stop. And it was awful and embarrassing, but whatever. Wonderful. But it was all good. Yeah. Like I got home and I had a little bit of a rebound. Like I feel like I had a little more intrusive thoughts. I was feeling a little more anxious. And I was like, oh, like that's okay. Like I of course that's going to happen after I spread myself so thin that I was barely alive. But it was totally worth it. So it's reframing it in that way, for sure. I find it amazing because while I was not at that conference, I am in touch with enough people who were, be it clinicians, researchers, advocates, people who are still suffering in recovery, who all have the same story. I got to go to the next one because clearly it's a good time. Everybody dragged themselves by their lips out of that conference and barely made it home. So so many, this large number of people who were insistent on maintaining control and boxing, keeping it all together for three days, just like, hey, whatever happens happens. And it was okay. Nobody died. Nobody died. Not to my knowledge. No love. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that in addition to that, in addition to just feeling totally exhausted after that, I think I can speak for Kelly as well as myself that, and this is with the podcast too. I never got up in front of people and spoke publicly before. Didn't like it. Made me anxious, makes me anxious sometimes, right? Lots of social anxiety, like, Oh, what are they thinking and like the fear of judgment? And really being willing to go toward that, even though it's not like it wasn't ever particularly debilitating for me, that, and just sort of under the umbrella of what does recovery really look like, it's seeing these opportunities and going, you know what, screw it. I'm just going to push myself a little bit harder. I'm going to do the thing because that's what I care about. And now, you know, even though I am uncomfortable, I'm pretty good at being uncomfortable in the service of talking about this stuff. And hopefully, it helps a person or two, you know? I would have never known. Great on camera. I know. It's wild, but she does get nervous as do I. But yeah, agreed. It's like you're more willing to an experience that normally you would avoid, for sure. And that's part of what recovery looks like. Things get broader, like experiences get wider, like there's less restrictions. So people ask me, well, you know, is it only, I always like to try to talk about recovery in terms of how it starts to look more like just life and less like recovery. You stop. Good point. They only want to know about the anxiety part of my life. It's not a part of my life anymore. Let's just talk about my life, you know, I travel, I go to things like I don't have any restrictions here. I never, I never make my decisions based on how I feel. I'm legit sick or whatever. But so that's really important. Recovery looks like you stop asking about recovery to a certain extent. Yes. I saw a post about that actually recently. Shannon, I think is her name, a healthy push. You know what I'm talking about on Instagram? Said something about like about just that. I thought it was so on point because essentially instead of focusing on how do I feel better, how do I get better? It really comes down to how do I live my life? And if people start to focus on that and less on the anxiety, the anxiety gets smaller and smaller anyway, just because it's not the focal point. Yeah. So do you guys find as you went through it or as your clients go through it that at first it's all recovery all the time. And then over time that balance begins to shift and it becomes there's an almost an even mix and at some point recovery starts to kind of tail off and it just becomes life. And you don't know when it happened for me and for most of my community like, wait, when did I, when did this happen? I don't know when it happened. It was no moment. Yeah. I see it when my clients, we stopped talking about OCD and we started talking about like their life, like Lauren was just saying. Yeah. Which is a great thing. It is a great thing. Yeah. Give us a point to that to somebody. Where's that? Usually, usually I'll be like, Hey, look at all this work you did. That's so incredible. There's usually this moment that's this an epiphany moment that's either brought to the client will bring it up or I will notice it. I'll be like, wow, like I was just reflecting on how when you first came in here, this is what you were doing. And now here you are telling me that you're going applying to colleges and you're an intimate relationship and you got your license and you know, kind of listing how far these things that were so something they would thought they would never be able to do. And here they are talking about it as if they were just anybody on the street. It's really cool when you see it. Or when other life problems can be problems. Yes. Like how work is killing me, my husband's being a pain in the butt. Like the kids are making me crazy. Like, you know, you didn't care about that a year ago. No. And now you have a whole different skill set to even deal with that stuff, right? So that when your husband's pissing you off, you can sort of like go back to what kind of a life do I want to live? What kind of person do I want to be? Instead of like, how do I, you know, release this feeling of frustration I'm having by yelling at him? Anything about this goalie in the NHL enough with that. My husband has aspirations to become an NHL goalie now. But no, it's yeah, it's it's remarkable. But I think what what I appreciate about what both of you are saying is that yes, there's this these moments where it comes into stark relief, the difference. And at the same token, it's this slow accrual over time, that one day you make this choice, and then the next day you make this choice. And then over time, this becomes the norm instead of this, but it is in those in those small moment by moment choices that we that we build our recovery. And then all of a sudden it's like, well, wait a second, we're not, we're not focused on that anymore. Wow. Right. You just preemptively answered my next question, which was going to be, I know that people watching are going to say, but how can I possibly get to the point where I don't care? That's always the question at the end of these. That sounds great. I can't wait to get there. But how can I possibly do that? I think Lauren just answered it. Tiny moment by moment, right? Acceptance of every of these little moments. And yeah, I tend to like minimize them as well. It's like, well, I did all these awful, like I did all these compulsions and blah, blah, blah. But then as the session goes on, they're like, I did this, I did that. I'm like, wait, hold on. Why did we just bury the lead? That's exactly it. It's a great way of putting it is like, forget all the other stuff. All right. Forget it. Let's talk about the stuff you did do because those matter. Like those tiny things are actually what's getting you closer to where you want to be. And people don't realize that it's so, it's so important. Every step is a big step. And like building the foundation of a house, like if you keep sort of sweeping it away every single time, like, no, that's nothing, right? You never build the house. All these compulsions. Oh, okay. We'll work on that. But you did all these other things too. Yeah. Those are some good bricks. You leave them there. Yeah. Don't you touch those bricks? Every single time you drive a new nail, you stand back and like, ah, damn it. It's not a house. Right. Like where we're going with this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Damn it. It's still not a house. No, it's not, but it's one nail closer to us. So keep driving the house. Yeah. Celebrate. Be proud of yourself for every step and keep going and not stop. Don't stop building when you hit a block in the road. How do you deal with that? And you're like, when you're working with people, Drew, like you see people? Well, it's the same thing. I mean, it's so funny because clearly we might be in different environments, but the story is that you buried the lead. It was in my head when you said it, because I see it all the time. People will rush into like my Facebook group and like, I did that. They'll give me a big long litany of all these amazing things that they accomplished over the weekend. Oh my God. I went to a birthday party and I went to the park with my kids and it's, these are like crazy things they would have never done three months ago. But then they come to, but then I got home and I started thinking that I was really anxious and then I didn't, you know, I got stuck on that and I couldn't get rid of that thought. I'm like, whoa, hang on. Stop. You could have stopped. Yeah. I think it's a universal experience. We don't give ourselves enough credit and we're too close to it to see the wins. And I think we're emotionally invested in the, in the suffering. We're not emotionally invested in the win. So we have that negative bias of like, I'm going to only focus, it's like customer service. Well, you know what? No one goes to therapy just because they get a nightmare, by the way. That's true. But what, you know, in my, my life is in technology companies, I used to tell my people that we're doing customer service, like no one calls us to say, I love you, man. They only call us. No one goes to see you guys in your office because you're just cool. I mean, you are, but then it's not where they go. Nobody goes because you're just having a great day. I want to tell us about it sometimes. So they'll bury the lead 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Highlighting each of them is so important. Like what you were saying, Kelly, like each and every one of them is just, Hey, but look at what you did well. Look at. Yeah. And I think that's why it's really important to have friends. If you don't have therapy and you don't have a therapist who can point those out to have support in some way, or even like a Facebook group or whatever, you know, Lauren's my best friend. And there, I can tell you right now, there are times where I didn't see certain things. And she's like, Oh, like I'm so proud of you that you did this. And I'm like, Oh, shit. Yeah, I did do that. So hang on. Cut out. I did it. Kind of a badass. No, you mentioned it. You're 100% right. Yeah. That's so interesting there because that's one of the ways you get to, you know, talking about what is recovery look and feel like with one of the ways you get there sometimes is we do have to trust the people around us, the people that came before us on the path or the, you know, our friends, our family, whoever are professional helpers, because we can't see it. Or we can't believe it. So people, I don't know, that's a different topic altogether. It's true. I just can't seem to get my brain to believe this. I know it won't until you do it, the belief you have to. So you'll have to use my belief for now. Borrow mine. Borrow mine. Yeah, borrow mine. Like trust that all 5,000 of us are not sending you to doom. Yeah, would we? Yeah. Yeah. Does that, that makes any sense to you? Oh, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a leap of faith required. I remember my own therapist telling me like, you're going to just have, you're just going to have to trust me on this. Yeah, mine too. And I was like, what? Plus who what now? I don't know. I don't know. But there's doubt. It's like, okay, let there be doubt, you know? Actually, yeah, to your point, Drew, I think we could do a whole other thing talking about that leap. Maybe that's next month, like the collective brain of recovery, which we don't, and Kelly, you're welcome all the time. I know you're going to make a regular thing. Yeah, we just need another element. I don't know. As long as we can talk about Lovowski a little bit. Sure. That's the next, I literally wrote, I write that morning newsletter, I wrote an entire episode, an entire morning newsletter about what the big Lovowski teaches us about recovery. So that was. Oh my gosh, I need to see it. I'll send you the link for sure. Are you kidding? I was like, Lauren's face, I can see her face like laughing at my face. So good. Well, it's funny because as you were talking about nihilism, I was like, oh, that would be like, you know, before the chat and how Lovowski is a nihilist, it sort of has that flavor of like, I don't care, right? Like, oh, all right. Well, that's happening. Totally. The dude is teaching us about recovery. Interestingly, in that situation, and we'll talk about it next month, Walter, Walter, the hot-headed guy was the voice of recovery. Yeah. They're going to kill that poor woman. They're going to kill her after they screwed up the drop. Her life is in your hands. All right. Relax, dude. Nothing is aft. Like that's just how you put the sound clip in it. So I'll send you the link. I can help myself. This is how I have my fun. It's like, I'm calm. I'm so calm. Comer than you are. Comer than you are. Oh my gosh. I don't know. I find myself as a Lovowski person. It's rare. I just, I'm going to say something. It's rare to find a woman that can quote it line for line. So you're welcome back all the time. Watch this one. She's going to take your chair, I like it. Go do it. I will say we have to find a nature element for Kelly to have, because for some reason we became fire and ice. Our disco group, our recovery disco group that I don't know why. So we need like earth, wind, power. We're going to be a captain planet is basically what I'm saying. Sort of power rangers thing going on. Yes. Oh, I love that. So I don't know. Kelly's face when you mentioned fire and ice was like, wait, nobody told me this. I wouldn't. Yeah. I was like, I feel like I've missed out on so many cool things right now. Water. I like it. Wonder twins, but with a strange third wheel. I love that. I want to be the strange third wheel. That's great. Good. I like it. We support you in any way we can kill. Thanks. Thanks. All right. So maybe next time we'll talk about maybe the hive mind, the recovery hive mind when you have to trust the hive mind because you can't trust yourself. Love it. Anyway, we're out 32 minutes. It's about as far as we want to go. Thank you. Appreciate you guys. Let me put you guys up on the screen. This is how you get to Lauren. She is at the obsessive mind on Instagram. This is how you get to Kelly at the OCD therapist. And lastly therapist too, like you were the first one. Yeah. It's like, bam, self-relieving. The OCD therapist, not an OCD therapist. It's hard to find a handle. Yeah. That's why I have periods of mine. Some do to read the truth without the dots. True. How dare they? And there is Drew. Go check him out. The anxious truth. He's got, he knows it, the anxious truth. What are we gonna do? Anyway, so thanks for coming by guys. This will stay up on my YouTube channel. So if you keep commenting, I will answer. And if I have to drag these two lovely humans back in to answer some comments, maybe I will do that. But otherwise, we'll see you next month as always. GTS then.