 What's up YouTube? Today we're talking to Karen Wickery, one of Silicon Valley's best super connectors who you don't even know of. We're going to talk about her book on how to advance your career even if you're an introvert, what to do at an event, and how to use social media to build that network. Stay tuned. Karen, thank you so much for joining us today, and I'd love for you to introduce yourself to our audience and tell them how you became such a super networker. So, hi everybody. My name is Karen Wickery. I'm a long time resident of San Francisco, a long time, I don't know, inhabitant of Silicon Valley, and I didn't set out to be a big networker. I am an introvert by nature. I do a lot of my connecting with people online, as I say, behind the safety of my screen, and I, you know, over the years people would turn to me and say, hey, you seem to know everybody, or can you make an introduction for me, or you know, that kind of thing. And part of that reason, and part of the reason I wrote the book is I've been in a very fluid job market that Bay Area and Tech are very fluid, and it's the norm that people move around and change jobs. I think the thing I've done is simply keep in touch with people as we've all moved into different roles and different jobs. And that turns out to be really a wonderful way to have a network simply by keeping it sort of an active touch with people and catching up occasionally with them. And that's the basis of the book. I think for a lot of people, they also need to understand that Silicon Valley, that area, and the way the job market is working is a little bit ahead of the curve. All the data and research is now pointing that people are not going to be staying in their jobs for very long, and their careers are going to be changing. And so this idea and these skills are, as we've been saying all through the month, is for everybody, everyone needs to understand that this is going to, you know, the risk that it takes being involved in the job market is solely going to be relying how comfortable you are with your network. No, that's exactly right. I should say Silicon Valley has had this kind of career fluidity, shall we say, for a long time. But it is not alone in that everywhere I go, everything I read tells me, and people are probably already experiencing this, nobody stays in a job for 20, 30 years. They may not even stay in the same field. And in addition, we have, you know, geographical moves that can happen over time, and just different, you know, new roles and new kinds of jobs and careers are opening up fairly frequently now. So for all of these reasons, it just pays to make connections as you go along, and then, as I say, stay in touch with them over time, because this much bigger network, it's bigger than your friends and family. You do know lots of people. It's just a matter of feeling comfortable in having some little bit of social lubrication, shall we say, with people. So that when you do want to be in touch about a specific new opportunity, introduction, that new lead, something like that, it's okay to be in touch, because essentially, we're all doing it with each other all the time. It's very much a give and get situation as opposed to a single transaction where you're desperate, and the other person is someone you are afraid to ask. That's why people hate networking. Yeah, and I think for a lot of our audience who's introverted like you, introverted like me, the idea that you could be a master networker and still be introverted is a little counterintuitive. What are some of the misconceptions that go along with introversion and networking? Well, part of it is this idea that networking is somehow you're in a hotel ballroom with 200 strangers, and you have to somehow come home with 100 business cards or something like that. That's a networking event. And I would say, don't do that if you don't want to do that. If you have to go to a conference, that's a different thing, which we can talk about. But for the most part, building a network is really simply paying attention to who you enjoy, who you've enjoyed working with, who you have fond memories of, who you like as a team member now, and you just stay in touch intermittently with them. And I find that people are happy to help each other, happy and flattered, to be honest, to be called on to say, could I introduce my friend to you because they have this question about your company or whatever it is? People want to help each other. So it's really just not coming on cold with, I'm desperate. I have a need. I'm not asking anything about you. I just want my thing, right? That's the image that networking has that's so bad. You know, something you said there, and all these different components for all these different companies all end up at some point being collaborative. And you mentioning about how important was of remembering the people that you worked really well with and that you got along with so that you can talk to them and these other times when trying to find something or transitioning. How important is AJ and I both grew up in families where our dad worked on assembly lines. So you're just you're focused. You're just dealing with your stuff. You're handling your day and your area. And you may talk to the guys at the lunch room, but that's about it. And that certainly is why some of those guys I think could develop a mentality that would allow them to last 30 years in a factory. But in today's climate, that collaborative, cooperative spirit and skills are going to need to be cultivated and developed in order for you to be a good employee and somebody that people want to work with or collaborate with. I was going to say that's actually, you know, in some companies, people will say, we don't want just the superstar, right? We need people who can collaborate with other people. So in a way that soft skills are kind of more important than ever. And the reason you may remember someone and if somebody asked down the line, and by the way, sometimes this is a back channel, someone will text me or send me a note and just say, Hey, do you know so and so? Because, you know, we're looking at them for some role or just considering whether we should reach out or something like that. And that is, you know, a kind of a thing that was not done before. I'm not giving a referral. The person may not know about this connection I have with somebody else. And the basis of my answer is essentially a great, you know, a great person, lots of energy, loves to be helpful. I'm not even talking about the skills for the job. I'm just saying this is based on my experience with this person. Now, I might have worked with them and I could speak to that. But people are asking, like, is this a good person? You know, is this someone we want to have on our team or that we want to have, you know, around us? And that's where this idea of being collaborative and helpful. And I should add, this is not being you have to be like out in front. You know, it does not mean you have to like lead, you know, team cheers, you know, whatever, whatever is the most awful thing you can think of. It is not that it's, I mean, I just always, I mean, I've been this way by nature, I think, but I want to kind of get to know the other people and what they're doing. And I want to be helpful if I can. I think most people are kind of like that. And so that's a key skill now, as you say. And think about how important that is to the office culture and the productivity. Exactly. If we have one person who's poisoning the well, so to speak, now we have a full office of people who don't want to go in, whose, whose days are now turning into drudgery when they are supposed to be happy productive workers who are doing the things that they love to be doing if they're, if they're doing their careers. And that person has now contaminated those, those areas. And that's right. Every person on that team is incredibly important. We certainly know what that looks like in sports. So and I think the key distinction here that you made is so important is like, these are just one to one little interactions here. You know, I think, yes, exactly. People get so focused on, I need to meet everyone in the room and I have to have this vast network and that vast network will come over time if you focus on great one-on-one interactions. That's exactly right. So there's a quote I found that I have been using. It's in my book and it's basically this. Networking is more like farming than it is like hunting. And I would add if you're not a farmer, you might think of it as gardening, right? So gardening or farming, they're continuous a little bit every day. It's sometimes you're reading, sometimes you're planting, you know, sometimes you're just letting it all winter over. But that's an ongoing thing. Whereas let's say hunting is kind of a one transaction, right? You know, like you go in for the kill, you kill or, you know, it's not good. It's not like this. So what you're saying is exactly right. The idea that, you know, suddenly a network springs up. I would say you know more people than you think you know, but I'd also say it is a matter of cultivation over time to feel like, well, who can I really trust with, you know, like a confidential thing I've got going on at work or, you know, problematic boss or something new I'm thinking about. And you're going to pull among the people in your network, not necessarily that smaller group of friends and family. Right. We made that distinction earlier this month too. And I think the important thing with all of this is to understand no matter where you are in your career, great conversations can start building that network. And I think a lot of people get so focused on, well, I don't have anything to add. I just got out of college. This is my first job. How can I add what someone like Karen adds to a network? It's like, well, actually just being helpful, being a great listener, being supportive are all things that you don't need a college degree for. You don't need a vast amount of experience for. But those little one-on-one interactions, they parlay throughout your career into that network that you hope to have. That's right. And I would also add, I've talked to groups of college students and grad students both, and they've gotten that very question, you know, I don't have anything. I'm not offering anything. And I think, you know what, you're offering your curiosity and your interest. You may be asking really sharp questions. And someone's going to remember that they may act right away. But in any case, that's a gift you're giving to that other person who's, you know, the supposed expert. You may surprise yourself and hoping the other person is open to that conversation. They may be surprised too. I'd also add to that, youthful exuberance. Like we, all companies could use a healthy shot of excitement in the arm and fresh blood. And I know what that's like for AJ and I. We've been doing this for 13 years. When some of the young kids come to help out or intern or work with us, we're excited because they're excited to get in the door. And it fires us up. And it reminds us about, you know, what it is special that we've been able to create and to see their faces get so excited. It only has the desired effect on us. Yeah, I would say, and actually, I think it's, it seems like it might be an age thing. And I get you because I also get energized by, you know, curious, sharp young people. But in a way, it's not about age. There's a book that has been very popular in Silicon Valley for a few years now called Growth Mindset by Carol Dweck, right? So this, anybody can have a growth mindset. I mean, this is, this is not about age. It is sort of like, are you open and curious to new ideas and new people and, you know, new thinking? Or do you have a fixed mindset? Right. And so that's, that's really the key. And that's why I think the right kind of like good, authentic connecting with other people is a mark of an open mind of a growth mindset. And do you think there are some strengths that introverts bring to networking that maybe extroverts don't have? I do. Actually, one of the key ones we've mentioned a little bit in passing has to do with listening. So even as a kid, without without any labels on it, I remember, I would just make a game, you know, someone would say to me, how are you, what's new with you? And I'd say, not so, I think, not so fast, you know, you're, I'm going to make you talk first, you're going to tell me what's going on with you. And then I gauge in that few minutes, what do I want to share and how much? Now that's just me, maybe that's some kind of self protection thing, I don't know. But the process is, no, I'm listening to you. I want to listen to you. I want to hear you first. And I would say introverts typically do not want to be out front, as I mentioned. And so the idea of, let me ask you the questions and hear from you that has a good effect in a different way, which is that person feels listened to and heard and flattered somewhat in that process. And you get more information in order to figure out how much you want to reveal, and also which way maybe the conversation goes based on that. I think that's a fantastic skill for making connections. And how to help that person. Yeah, a lot of times in these situations, they're going to volunteer information that, oh, I didn't realize they were into this, or I didn't realize they were traveling here, I've been to a great restaurant there. You know, these are all little bits of information that we have talked away. And if we give someone else a spotlight, we can now offer up some value that we didn't even go into the interaction thinking we had to get. Exactly, exactly. And when it comes to listening, obviously, I think a lot of us like to think we're good listeners, like to think, oh, I caught everything, but it's easy to get distracted by thinking about things elsewhere. What have you done to hone your listening skills as a networker? You know, I'm not sure it was a conscious thing so much, but I know, and we've all been here, we get caught out when we're not really listening, but we're waiting for our turn to talk. I mean, that's happened to me. And so, then I think, okay, I don't want to do that. I don't want to be like that. So let me kind of double down and just zero in here on what you're saying. And it doesn't take, now, you have to have the conditions for a good conversation. If it's a noisy coffee bar, and you know, you can't really hear that well, maybe that's not the place to have that sort of get to know you kind of conversation. But somewhere along the line, you want to have it where you say, I'm here for you, I really want to hear from you, and I want to know about you, you know, what's going on. It could be a concentrated period of time, but it needs to be, I'm really, I'm all here. So occasionally, I have to remind myself, I'm all here. And we all know that unpleasant feeling when, you know, you're not really listening and then someone asks you a question and you have to kind of, yeah, well, I think, you know, love through that's not good. No, that's not going to advance your cause. Certainly not grow your network. Yeah. And obviously during your career, the advance in technology and these tools we now have to our advantage, you mentioned at the top of the interview that, you know, you do a lot of networking behind the screen now. And, you know, 20, 30 years ago, that was impossible. Right. And utilizing these tools, I know Johnny and I rag on social media a bit because it does suck away your attention. And a lot of times it works against you and creates some depression, but there are also great tools for staying connected and allowing this network to grow like that garden. Yes. How do you use these tools in your life to manage your network? Well, I would say, I mean, and I hope this resonates for people, you know, it's old fashioned in a certain way, but email is kind of the only kind of interoperable network we all share. So in terms of being introduced to someone, for example, or following up with someone who you're not connected to on LinkedIn or Twitter or Facebook, that's about as easy as it gets. You just send a note. The person doesn't have to answer it in real time. You can explain what you're looking for, what question is, or can we make a date to get together in person, something like that. So that has a continuing place in the process. But I would also say now, because we actually know, we know of, we generally know more people than any time in history, just because of working with people and the people we meet, you know, along the way. So having LinkedIn obviously was designed for sort of professional and career networking. And it works, I think, fine. And it has some guardrails and people seem to understand how to use it. It's handy. So when you meet someone at a conference, the most common thing is either can I send you an email or can we connect on LinkedIn? That's great because then you can kind of start that. But then after you've met, this is when keeping in touch matters most, then it's, are we both on Twitter? And we follow each other on Twitter, we both on LinkedIn, etc., Instagram, whatever it is, then that can be a channel with that person. If that's something you both tacitly agreed to, then it's just, hey, I thought of you yesterday when I saw the news about your company or your team or the pop culture reference, whatever it is, it's sort of like, I know you like that. I know you're in that. I know you did that. Just want to say great, you know, and just, hey, that doesn't require a response or much of a response. It's not a request for help. It's really just, hey, I'm thinking of you, essentially. And so it's never been easier to do that and do that on a regular basis with a wide variety of people. Maybe you're work colleagues, former work colleagues, whatever it is. That's how I keep in touch with people, is all those ways. And it's often that I'm like going through, I'm big on Twitter, I mean, I'm on Twitter all the time. So I'm seeing things and I'm kind of passing them along with the direct message to this one or that one and just saying, did you see this? Do you believe this? Or, you know, oh my God, you know, I mean, I don't have to do anything else. That's a sort of moment of a touch point that someone might send me an emoji back. Like, we're in touch. It's when we need to be actually in touch in, you know, real time, we've had an encounter. It's not like we're, we've been out of touch, we've been in touch, and now we're going to be more in touch. So that's, that's how those tools kind of make it easy. You have to be comfortable using them, of course, and you have to use the ones you and your contact are comfortable using. You don't want to make people sign up for a new account. I'll see you on TikTok, you know. But, you know, we all find our ways through this. And it makes it very easy then to just have that kind of light touch with people. And this, you call this the loose touch habit. This is something that you're doing on a daily basis. This is part of your routine to manage that garden, so to speak. Yeah, exactly. And not the same people every day. It's more, you know, and by the way, you know, we're also living in an age because we are connected through, even if it's only LinkedIn or, you know, past email or whatever it is, it's really okay to kind of drop in out of the blue and just say, hey, I've been thinking about you or we haven't, I talked to people or I've been in touch with people or people reach out to me. We might not have even seen each other for five years or worked together for 10 years. But it kind of doesn't matter because there's that sense of we're all out there doing our thing. You know, we're all, we're all in the ether somewhere. And so assuming there's some degree of affection and fondness between people, even if it was just a professional relationship, suddenly you should just say, hey, I've been thinking about you because this, you know, because now I'm interested in your line of work. Now I'm, you know, the thing that we used to talk about, it's so much more true now. And I really, I'd love to talk to you about it or catch up with you. Or I see you're at a certain company I'm interested in. There's like no harm, no foul with sort of coming back into consciousness with someone, assuming you've had, you know, there's some, there's some past touch points. Yeah. And I think that the beauty of listening online is that people are offering up on their LinkedIn, they're writing articles, they're posting stuff, the things that they're interested in, they're walking billboards. You can see exactly what they're interested in. So if they wrote a medium post about something and you read a news article that's related to that topic, yeah, that loose touch is valuable to them. Oh, okay. He read my medium. Oh, great. He was thinking of me. Right. And even, you know, the LinkedIn will say like so and so, you're connected to, like has a new job, right? Even that's great. I would say, don't just rely on the LinkedIn canned language to send your congratulations. And I sometimes will just send a note note to say, awesome, good for you. But sometimes I'll also, if I know the person somewhat well, I might not say it on LinkedIn, but I might send an email and just say, hey, I saw the news. That's great. I really love to hear what's going on with you or what you think about it. And they know you've seen that news because they posted it, right? So it's, again, a little bit flattering, but also like, oh, you're aware of what's happening. And that's a sign of interest. We talk about that here, the same thing. And for me, I like to revert to the method of communication that we've been engaged in previously. So some of the times it's texting, it's like I see something on LinkedIn and I'll text them, hey, congratulations. You know, same thing with Facebook birthdays and all of that. Like, obviously, everyone is posting the same thing. They see that on LinkedIn. It's nice to have that little extra personal touch, catch something on Instagram, then text or even phone call on those important moments. And these little things you can do habitually, not the same people every day. And that's how you're pruning that garden. Now, you talk about this place, the third place. Johnny and I love this concept. We talk with all of our students about it here, how important it is to have that place outside of home and outside of work where you can express yourself. You could be part of the community and engage in it. And it's interesting now because online, these platforms have created that third place for a lot of us. That's right. Or a bunch of third places, right? Because there are fan communities that I have no part of, but I know they exist. I know they're a third place. Or even eSports or Twitch or things like that can also serve that purpose. But I would also say even the larger, like I say, I'm big on Twitter. So I know when I, I mean, I look at Twitter to say, what are we all talking about now? Like what's on our minds collectively, right? And I'll see. I ensure I say things. I'll tweet things that then other people I know will also, a little subset of us is exchanging. But that's where we do it. Yeah, it's a very interesting phenomenon. It's important for those of us who don't understand this idea is to identify your own third place where you can feel comfortable sharing. And we've built a little online community on Facebook for fans of the show at our challenge. And yeah, on there, we have people from all over the world who are interested in growing their social skills, personal development. And, you know, maybe their friends and family aren't interested in it. So they congregate online, they post some videos, they're connecting with each other. And now they're even meeting in person because they found this third place. And I think the internet has sort of provided so many opportunities to find your own third place. You're really doing yourself a disservice if you're not engaging in these little communities and creating opportunities socially online outside of, you know, where you are at work and where you are at home, which a lot of us refer to. Yep, that's absolutely right. And by the way, you don't just need one third place, right? I mean, I think we're used to this idea now that there's an incredible community of people who are, for example, cancer patients, right, and they're sharing their experiences in clinical trials and all that stuff. It's fantastic because that didn't use to happen, right? The early days of AOL, they had chat rooms, right? And one of the big categories for chat rooms from those days was the gay and lesbian community, who'd also been active in use net groups. But it's like these kind of places you meet people through either forced or lifestyle interest groups, that's some force by saying like an illness, for example, or even grief. You know, all of these things are kinds of third places that reflect a bunch of things in our lives. And I think it's fantastic that they all exist. And obviously with these platforms, there's a lot of concern around your online brand and not putting too much online. And of course, we now know that recruiters are less likely to place you in a job and point you in the right direction. If they can't find you online, so your online brand matters. But for those of us who feel a little overwhelmed with all these platforms and are concerned about our privacy, what are some of the tips that you have to make sure that you're developing a good online brand that's going to help you build your network and help you professionally, but not maybe oversharing and creating a position that a company wouldn't want to hire you. Well, I mean, for this purpose, if you do nothing else, I do think LinkedIn has value for a couple reasons. One is, as you say, I mean, recruiters live there. And it's not just for jobs. It's also sort of, I think for a lot of us, it's a kind of de facto directory. If you say to me, do you know so-and-so? I immediately am going to look them up online then. And do I know them? Do I have some connections then? Because so many people are on there. So I would say if your interest is basically professional development, do have a profile on LinkedIn, have a photo. Even if you've been in the same job, take a little time to describe different elements of the job. And I talk a lot about the thing they call a summary, which is at the top of your kind of chronology. That's where you can kind of paint a bigger picture of what you really want to do, what your aspiration is, or what you're kind of the total package, what you're done for. And the reason that's valuable is, again, for all these kinds of connections, even if you love your job, people want people who might speak or be a panelist or write an article or be a board member or all that kind of stuff. But in addition, just sort of being part of that community or having some expertise about something that someone else might turn to. So I'd say that LinkedIn is a minimum. And then from there, it's really kind of your personal style. But these things don't all have to hook together in a unified brand. I was saying to someone earlier today, you know, my Instagram is really all like kind of architectural details when I travel. I mean, I like looking at old buildings and I like taking pictures of little parts of those buildings. It's really mostly that it's not connected to anything. It doesn't have any bearing on things. Now, it's safe if someone finds it, they're not going to see this crazy side of me. So I guess I have thought about it a little bit. But I would say, you know, be cognizant always of what you're posting in there because certainly it will get found and looked at unless you have, you know, some alias setup that you that you can use. But really, I mean, we sometimes forget it really is our choice what we post. I know parents who post a lot of their kid stuff on Instagram, for example. And I know others who do not do that, or they don't say ever their kids nates, right, or maybe show their faces. But, you know, it's sort of people have to figure this out for themselves. I think at a minimum, it's important to have something up on these platforms. And I think it is important to look at it from the lens of, if a recruiter was staring at this, if my potential boss was staring at this, and there were two candidates in the room, and it came down to my social media, do I want to be known as the person who was partying in Meakinos or who was running around, right, you know, those sorts of things probably want to stay off there because these tools are being utilized. You can't deny that these are part of the job search now. And it's important to craft that. Yeah, with all of these tools that we talked about online, of course, they've helped networking, they've helped us stay in touch with each other. But of course, when it comes to meeting in person, especially going to these conferences, going to these events where you're a little introverted, you know, you're going to be forced to meet a lot of people, and you may not also feel like you're that far along in your career yet. And you want to talk to the speakers, you want to make an impact. What is your advice there, specifically on conferences? Because I know we got a lot of questions from our audience. Right. And so I think a couple of things. One is, you know, remember, you really don't want to meet everybody and you're not going to meet everybody. So let's just not have that super high bar there. If it's a smaller workshop, you know, you may have a more comfort level with a little bit of small talk with people. But I would say a couple of things. One is, you're not going to do your whole networking transaction at the conference, right? You're going to make some additional contact that's kind of friendly and kind of interesting for five, 10 minutes. And then you follow up after. So you might be waiting in line together for coffee. You might be waiting for a speaker and just sitting next to each other. The small talk there should be a little bit, should be related to the conference, the event. And try not to ask yes, no questions. Basically, you know, how did you, how did you find yourself wanting to come to this conference? What are you hoping to get out of it? Is there a speaker you're looking forward to today? Is this a field you're in? You know, if you can read a badge easily, not awkwardly, that's great, because that gives you a little more intel to go on. But it's basically, you want to draw them out a little bit and oh, you know, I'm interested in, oh, I know about your company, because they've been doing, you know, something I'm interested in. Could we follow up? Could I follow up with you after? Could we exchange contact info or may I, you know, link to you or whatever, whatever is appropriate in that setting? And then do follow up, you know, wait a day or two. And then say, if I was glad we met, here's something I've been reading or here's a thing I wrote or, you know, whatever it is, I'd like to talk to you more about it or just stay in touch about it. You've made that contact. Yeah. And I think there are certainly strategic areas too to help those of us who are introverts get into those conversations. You know, I go to a lot of conferences where, you know, the quiet people tend to sit all the way in the back row and they're removed from even opportunities to talk. And just standing in line next to the speaker, you're going to be inundated with people who are waiting to talk to the speaker, introduce themselves. And it's a great opportunity to have a quick conversation, ask them what they want to share with the speaker. That's a trick that I've learned from one of my mentors is being by the speaker has that halo effect too. It's like, oh, maybe AJ knows the speaker. Even if you don't, same with where the refreshments are or where the badges are handed out, right? When people are first coming in, they're going to be a little nervous. They're looking around, putting their badge on. Who do I know here? And these are where the conversation is happening. That's right. And I also love the tip that you gave that it's important to, even if you're an introvert and you're overwhelmed by this, to give yourself some time to recharge too. Oh, absolutely. A lot of times we go to these events, we're like, okay, I have to hit it so hard and I have to meet everyone. And when you're worn out, other people can know that they're going to see you're not listening, you're not engaged and it's going to harm your network if you're forcing it. Yeah, that's right. I mean, there's no advantage to just sort of going to the nth degree to the last mile when you're really spent. There are times I know I've kind of done it up here. I need to take a walk outside for a minute if it's a multi-day thing or I'm going to sit out one session. I would say one other thing, though, about the break areas and the common areas. If your goal really is to sort of meet some new people or make some specific connections, keep your face out of your phone during those breaks so that you look like I'm open to conversations around me. I'm making eye contact. People legitimately have a need to check their email and whatnot. That's fine. But don't do that the whole time so that you've come away saying, no, I didn't meet anybody. Well, no one's not going to bother somebody with their faces in their phone. Yeah, and a lot of us use it as a self-comforting safety behavior. It's just like, oh, I'm not talking to anyone. I have to grab out my phone and do something. But we don't realize that you're basically sending a signal to the rest of the room, but don't bother that person. They're engaged in something. So being open to conversation is great advice. Now, you mentioned something that we talked a lot about this month, which is the follow-up. And as someone who goes to a lot of events, I find that this is where 90 plus percent of people screw it up. You have a great conversation with them. They're like, oh, I'm going to reach out. I'm going to follow up and you think something's going to happen and then they don't follow up. And that's the crucial part in all of this. It's great if you exchange LinkedIn's. It's great if you got a little bit of face time. But if you're not following up and doing those loose touch moments and making sure that the other person knows, hey, I'm here to be helpful and supportive, well, you're not really networking. Yeah. No, that's exactly right. And the follow-up is where it just takes more than one conversation to make a new friend. It's sort of like it has to be a little ongoing. And so if there's a reason to say, oh, you're going to be at that thing next month, I'm going to be there too. Or did you know about I'm going to send you a note because I know about another event like this. And let's follow up about that. That's the way that along with offers to help in a kind of general sense, it really is all about that follow-up. Because otherwise it just, oh yeah, I'm not really in touch with anybody. And I'm the one who says, well, I am in touch with them because I'm having these little intermittent moments of being connected. So I can tell you where they're working now. I just know because this is what I do online. But it happens not in the moment at a conference. And now I would, I'd love to know at this point with your reputation, I'm sure there are a lot of people who are trying to get in your inbox, trying to get on your LinkedIn, what are the things that people do, strangers do that just annoy you when they're trying to network with you so that our audience can avoid these things? Right. Well, one is the obvious, the sort of presumptive sell. And frankly, I think this happens most often on LinkedIn, where there are people who have services to sell and they want to be a coach or they want to be an agent or they want to, whatever it is. So they have no connection with you. And they write basically through the mail function that you can read somebody you're not connected to. And it'll be like, you don't know what my business is or what I'm interested in, and you're just sending this. So that's just a cold call. So that's not good. I would say it doesn't happen to me super often. I was just mentioning this and I was laughing because we just got one on Instagram yesterday. And the first line was, oh, I see you're burning up the podcast as well. So they're saying, oh, we know you podcast. And the next one is, do you guys ever have guests? It's like nice try. Yeah, I'll tell you an interesting one. I've gotten out twice. So because of this book, I got recently, this was email, I believe, to my website account. And it was basically a PR firm that does PR for authors. Okay, that's legit. I could see somebody, somebody did a little homework. It was a can note. But I thought, you know, that's okay. But then I look at their website. And it is, this company is so behind the time. And so they're not, they're not linked on social. They're not, I mean, listen, maybe they do great work, but I couldn't find their clients. I couldn't find, you know, their own presence online. They had like circa 2000 website. So I didn't even bother. And I got the same can note a second time. And I'm sort of tempted to write back and say, you know, here's some, here's a critique, but then I think I don't know if I want to get into a dialogue. But it is, that's essentially a cold call to, and I would say to people who maybe are in that business, like, you better have your, your best game on, you know, when you're, when you're doing that kind of pitch, maybe you do reach people that way. But, you know, people are in the know, I think you're going to, you know, look a little deeper than your, than your pitch list, pitch note. The other thing I'd add on LinkedIn in particular is if you want to be connected to someone, say something about why don't just use the LinkedIn message, right, which is just, I'd like to be connected to your network or whatever it is. Tell me why. I mean, maybe I would say yes to somebody I knew nothing about it had no connection to, but I need to know a little more than just, you know, someone is someone playing a numbers game. I don't know. So I, as a result, I don't act on, you know, a lot of requests that come in that are just kind of random, but I can't, I can't see what the connection is. I don't, I don't decline them. I just kind of sit in purgatory. Yeah. It's a good way to put it. And you talk about the importance of the double opt-in and when making introductions, how important it is to get the other person's consent. Can you walk our audience through that? Because I think that's another big no-no that people are doing. Yeah. I think if you think of yourself as a recipient of one of these kind of, I didn't opt in for this notes, that's kind of a surprise. And you, even if it's a friend of yours, you're like, well, what's the connection here? Like, I'm super busy right now. I can't do this. Or, you know, you don't want someone promising something for you. So I always, always, always, somebody will meet with me often. They're new to town or they, you know, they have a specific question. And I'll get excited when I talk to them. And I'll make note of three or four people, maybe, and I'll say, listen, I'm going to write to these people. I'd like a little bit from you, like a little paragraph about specifically what you're doing or what you're interested in. Send me that. I'm going to send that to each of these people with a little note from me about how we met and that I, you know, I think you're interesting. I think this is a good question. If you don't mind, only when they say, yes, this person I'm asking the favor of, do I then say, okay. And then I put, I send the next note to the two of them introducing them and saying, you know, my contact is kindly agreed to talk to you about this. Take it away, but, you know, enjoy. Right. Being respectful with other people's time and you hit the nail on the head when someone's making promises on your behalf, it puts you in an awkward position because now you have to say no, which makes you look bad to some people. And or the flip side, you're forced to do something that you wouldn't have done in the first place. Even, I mean, I do have friends who will say, listen, anyone you want to introduce to me, it's fine. Go right ahead. I still will ask because it might be, maybe they're jammed for a month with a deadline, you know, and they just can't, they would like to, but they can't feel right now or whatever it is. I still want to kind of clear, you know, say, Hey, you won't hear from this person for a month. Yeah. Context is key, right? Context is key. Giving people who are busy, especially as we talked to start, how fluid things are. It's like, yeah, you met this person at a conference a year ago, they could be working in a different company now, doing something completely different. They didn't have time to update their LinkedIn. And if you're just forwarding them, Hey, I found this person, deal with it. Yeah, you're actually harming your network. And I think a lot of people don't realize that. Yeah. Yeah. It's really, think and put yourself in that position. And I bet you won't want to do it anymore. Yeah. We love to give our listeners a challenge at the end of each episode so they can start applying exactly what they've learned from the show. Do you have a challenge that you'd like to share with our audience to help them grow their network? Yeah, I would say make a short list of three to five people you're not in touch with now. You'd like to know better. You used to work with whatever it is, but part of it is you like, you have a good sense of them, right? And reach out to them in some fashion, whatever your connection mechanism may be, whatever channels you use, just to say, Hey, I've been thinking about you and I would love to catch up when it's convenient. If these are local people, you can make a coffee date. If you know them better, maybe it can be a meal, but I always keep it light initially with coffee because that could be 20 minutes. All right. But anyway, try that. And it's like, you send out the outreach to three to five people. Maybe you do three a week. Maybe you do three every two weeks. You're planting, you're ongoing. And then some will say yes, some will say yes for next month, but keep doing that every, every week at whatever your comfort level is. And then over time, you're going to be caught up with more people. And those people are part of your network. And I just wanted to add to that as well. I know when that happens on my end when people reach out to me and say, Hey, I haven't heard from you in a while. I've been thinking about you. I want to catch up and allow it. It makes me feel good. So, you know, bright people say with all this technology, we tend to feel more and more isolated. So when people actually reach out, reach out, contact, I was like, Ah, people do care. People are thinking about me. No, exactly. And it is a nice feeling. And, you know, maybe they want to catch up with you, but you took the initiative. Yeah. And it's a net positive. Even if they're busy, that warm feeling about you, the fact that you were thinking about them, it's cumulative. It compounds over time. And everything that we talked about here, the more you can create these habits. And we've even talked about creating space on your calendar instead of farting around on social media, create space on calendar to actually use it to your advantage, use the tools like we talked about today. Thank you so much for joining us. The book actually drops today. We're so excited. Where can our audience find more about this fantastic book? So my website does have book information. It's just my name, Karen, wickery.com, K-A-R-E-N-W-I-C-K-R-E. And I'm also on Twitter at Kbox K-V-O-X. Thank you so much for joining us. We love these tips and we love that. An introvert like us has actually cracked the code to networking. Same here. God forbid we should have her meet in person. This has been great. Well, you're going to be getting a LinkedIn connection from me. One of those generic ones. I could take that. Now come on, write a note. Thank you for the tips. It was awesome having you. Thank you. Oh, it's great to be here. Thanks a lot, you guys.