 Thanks for staying with us now. Although activities of different groups that target civilians are definitely terrorism in nature, the attempts of the government in Nigeria to use this label may have created some confusion, especially when political opponents, civil society groups and opponents of the government have also been branded as terrorists. Now, this is an excerpt from the publication by DME Bukola Oyeni titled Terrorism in Nigeria, Groups, Activities and Politics. You can go read them all. Now, the Senate President Ahmed Lawan, in his remark after the bill was passed, said that the bill would complement the federal government's effort in the fight against insecurity when signed into law by the president. He said, it is our belief here in the Senate that this bill, by the time signed into an act by Mr President, will enhance the efforts of these governments in the fight against terrorism, kidnapping and other associated and related vices. Now, we are all aware of the level of insecurity in Nigeria at the moment, the killing, the kidnapping. I mean, we just mentioned a few now when we're talking about it in the news segment. And general unrest, so we are asking how does this terrorism prevention bill protect Nigerians and if it is a smart or is a very insensitive move by the Senate? I don't want to say the other word. Now, please let us hear what you have said. Remember, you can join the conversation and send us an SMS or WhatsApp to 081 80384663. You can also tweet at us as a ratio after one with hashtag ratio. So I would like us to probably set up, set the foundation for this conversation, right? Who are we going to start with? So, I want to start with you. You know, let me come to you, Uti. When you saw this thing, because for me, I saw it, I said, God, is this not putting the carts before the horse, right? Somebody has just gotten a phone call that we have your loved one and it's either you pay 15 million Nera or nothing. The first thing that raises through your mind is that how can I get this person out of the way? So the person is already thinking, I have to pay this money. Then what the Senate is saying is that if I then pay this money, I, after losing my loved one, will go to jail and I'm not even sure of my loved person coming back, right? Let me hear your thoughts first. Well, I will class it as a sad and unimaginative solution to a very big problem. Let's be fair. Not fair. Let's be clear. We have a problem and this is the best solution that they've been able to come up with. Is it the right solution? There are a lot of factors. I can just say yes, no, it's not the right solution, right? But do we have a kidnapping, ransom and terrorism problem in Nigeria today? Absolutely. Do our leaders need to find a solution? Absolutely. This is the solution that they have come up with. Is it suitable? Absolutely not. You cannot forget even kidnapping adults. You cannot in the face of the amount of kidnappings that we have had in education at every level from children, you know, to old facts and then tell a parent, these parents are past these laws that you will not pay and if you pay, I will pay it to my food chest and you will take me to jail, whatever you want to do. So the fact is, it's not even about your children not being in the country. It is the fact that you are faced with a very bad problem and you are looking for a solution. They've gone down the easier route, which is to target the parents who just want any members or loved ones who just want... Exactly, who just want their loved ones back? So that's one, two, cut before the horse. I like that you said that. What have you done to actually save the problem? Because let's not be clear. The business of kidnapping is booming. Seriously. If you can ask for 100 million, get paid. You can ask for 250 million, get paid. Even on the lower end of the scale, the story, one of the stories we were reading, the man was kidnapped the first time. His family screamed and scrunched to pay 1 million. Paid it, they released him. Then the same set came back and kidnapped him again. Then his family had to sell everything. They had to pay another 1 million. So let's be clear that this business is booming. Now, what is being done? You are deterring the victims. Please, what are you doing to deter the kidnappers and the people? The perpetrators. The criminals, the perpetrators. What are you doing? Now you say, I think somewhere in this law, I saw somewhere that the kidnappers would be killed, right? Is death. There's a condition, no? Death. So, let the condition, let's just say that there's no condition. They just chop your hair off. No, there's a condition. Now, if I was kidnapped for 30 days, like the woman that was pregnant and everything, and I did not die, nothing happens to the kidnappers. I'm just saying that, let's even say that there was no condition that it was just killed. Please, how many people have you caught? How many of these things have been investigated? If we go right back to Chibok, which is the oldest one I can remember. You know, it's not even the genesis, but that was the most public one that we can remember. Yes, one of the first public ones. Who has been held responsible? Who has been caught? Even the kidnapper that was eventually caught, Evans, what happened to him? So, as an entity, as a nation, we have done nothing to stop the crime. Then we go after the victims and say that is the way that we are going to stop it. I only have one word for that and it's unimaginative. When you start to read the story, as she was saying, as she was reading the story, she was getting more upset. The explanation beneath it is not even that lives are being lost, not that Nigerians are dying. It is that we shouldn't appear on certain lists when it comes to financial acts and crimes. Now, let's even come to the financial aspect of it. We have put in laws against cash. We have a cashless policy. We have talked about BDN, NIN, all the various ways in which you can identify Nigerians, right down to tying the NIN to the phone line. We still cannot follow the money. Don't forget that someone actually said that they know these kidnappers. They know where they are, but they cannot reach them. They are actually interacting with these kidnappers. Let's not forget that. However, I want us to start from this premise. I want us to take this. What is the meaning of kidnapping, basically? What is the principle motive of kidnapping? It is said here that the principle motives of kidnapping are to subject the victim to some form of involuntary servitude, to expose him to the commission of some further criminal act against his person, or to obtain ransom for his safe release. Now, the Senate is saying that we should not obtain some sort of ransom, or we should not pay the ransom for the release of our loved ones. Safe release? Safe release of our loved ones. Why? So is it okay for us to lose our loved ones in the process of having this? Uti has already said most of these things. And what are the preventive measures they have put in place? What is the root cause of kidnapping currently in Nigeria? Unemployment, lack of education, or low standard of education. What are the other things that we can take into premise? You know, it just costs across border, poverty. And it is in everybody's faces. A lady walked up to me yesterday and said that she had not eaten. I had to give her some money for her to feed herself and her family. Now, is food, would you be happy to see somebody in that kind of dynamic? You know, it is sad part about this thing. But when you talk about poverty, the sad part about that poverty is that when you hear how much they sell a human being for, you remember the child that we were talking about? 5,000, 8,000, 20,000. The child that we were talking about at the school at Omole. So you think the wealth of a human life. And again, it is not, we can't kid ourselves. The election season is upon us. And it seems like this thing has just quadrupled, right? The cases of what we're hearing. I was going to come to you Nama, because again, somebody laid an allegation that the truth is that he thinks that this is a good move. It's a good move. It's a because government, parastate how they've been paying ransom. So interesting that even happened was that there was a time somebody was kidnapped. And the government actually claimed to have paid 800 million. Only 30 million got to the kidnapper. Kidnapper begin the events. Come bring us with you. So the 800 million they paid, only 30 million come to me. That no, this is this, you know. So even within, there's a lot of insincerity within. Because again, they're saying that in quote unquote, on the line gist is that this bill is supposed to be targeted at government bodies paying ransom. Because it is now a business, right? You'll pay. I'll tell you that I have written there that what we had to pay for the ransom was 800 million. But once we come to you, they will pay. So who is to blame? Which is his point that the kidnappers are known. Yes. Yes. They are known. I was just going to be, I was, while Issy was talking, I was reminded about the voice notes that we heard and how the person that was narrating his story said that this is beyond just kidnapping, that there's some kind of confound, the system going on. And then you brought out the aspect of profiteering. And it seems from what we can see that there are people who are benefiting from this system going on. Because when we hear, like you said, the amount of monies that are going to this is enough for you to put up a bill, quote unquote, to stop the profiteering from this situation. But my question is at the end of the day, who is benefiting? The young boy who attempted to kidnap some people for $5,000 an hour. He doesn't even know that when these people are going to take these things, they're going to sell it at a much higher... Of course, they put it up. The kidnappers usually will say that even if they don't pay your ransom, we're not going to lose. Because guess what? We're going to dismember you. Stephanie was dismembered and parts of her body was taken away, for God knows what. If it's about ritual killings, there are people looking for livers. There are people looking for kidneys. There are people looking for arms and legs or whatever for rituals. So who is profiting from this experience? You're putting up a bill and then you're telling my heart is so heavy. Because the level of insensitivity and insensitivity that some of our so-called policy makers present in their bills. Sometimes it is so disheartening. And that's why we have been crying time to the number for people to open their eyes in 2023. Your elections, the questions that you're asking the people who are going to be making policies on your behalf. And not focusing on just the executives. There's so many aspects to government. It's not just about the presidency. There's different aspects that continue to affect you and I as citizens of Nigeria. You can't make a bill. You can't try to pass a bill that you're not thinking about the people. Uti rightly said it and it would literally she took it out of my mouth. Because at the end of the day, these are victims. How are you sorting the problem of terrorism in Nigeria? The sitting government had promised before they came in that on top of the list is to tackle terrorism and insecurity in the country. And this is how many years down the line. It seems like it's becoming worse. Uti rightly said the elections are coming up. So people are beginning, it's like the business is even booming more because these are the people that are patronizing these terrorists. At the end of the day that they're booming and asking, having the audacity to ask for millions and billions and then people want to save the lives of their loved ones. If they had to scratch, that voice note said that literally it was some group that came, literally came to that man's aid to scratch out whatever it is that they could come together, some church members, family to be able to help. So how are you being sensitive to the need, to the cry of now that people are losing loved ones? I was reading up on the write-up and to date we have about 87,903 people who have lost their lives since we started talking about terrorism in Nigeria and these are the ones that are known. You are not talking about the people that are missing. You are not talking about the ones that have never been found. So this is beyond just putting out a bill there just for profiteering. Okay, let's take a break because the phone lines are buzzing. We'll take a break. We'll come back right now to open our phone lines. Stay with us. All right, so if you just tuned in, it's our ladies night out and we are discussing terrorism, prevention, bill passage and we're asking is it a smart move or a very insensitive move by our Senate, right? Please let's hear what you have to say. Remember, you can join the conversation. Send us an SMS or WhatsApp to the red one. 80384663. You can also tweet at us at Weissho, AFK1 with the hashtag Weissho. Our phone line is now open. You know the rules. Turn off the volume of your television set. The number to call is 07025007749. Let me come to you. You see, you know, about many years ago for our area, now robbery, the rain, all of a sudden it now shifted from robbery to kidnapping and kidnapping at that time was for expatriates. It now became now, I mean, if you are going back to Binin for instance, you're coming from abroad. Do you understand? You dare not not because... Don't flaunt your... Because they'll kidnap you. That was how it started. And now it's everywhere. But let me hear your thoughts to see. But even at that time, even if they kidnap you, they wouldn't hurt you. It's just go bring money. They used to give you food, so... Go bring the money. We don't say you get this money. Go and get it for us. It was based on information. And they don't hurt you. So they bring you back in one piece without hurting you. But these days, there is no empathy. There is so much insensitivity in the process of doing it. They beat them. They torture them. Did you see how he tricked them? Let's take a course. Sorry. So the amount from Baati, thank you for calling your life. Thank you, whoever. I like to talk with you. The same emotionally, or if you know they are not torture them, they are asking for their life. And those leaders, if you realize the situation is better. Thank you. Thank you, Suleiman. So please, for those calling the WhatsApp number, you can't call us on the WhatsApp number. Call the number on the screen. That's the number to call for calling in. Somebody has been buzzing the WhatsApp line. So I don't know how to respond to Suleiman. No, Suleiman makes it valid. It makes a valid point about, but you see the truth is, you can only put this being in place when every other thing has been put in motion. Exactly. Which is why we say that it's unimaginative. You've said we all know. I mean, which of the school kidnappings was it that they asked them to buy motorcycles? What for? It's the same perpetration of the crime. So the reality is that we understand that the problem exists. But what are you doing to stop the problem? What are you doing to... What have you put in place? Because there are so many aspects to kidnapping. Right? There is the terrorism side of it. You know, what's happening... And there's the money side. Then there's the money side of it because it's not every point. Like you said, some people are kidnapping and it's about body parts. There's all sorts of... It's become quite lucrative. So let me take Peter from Benin. Then I'll come back to you, T. Your life. Thank you for calling. Good evening. Hi, Peter. Thank you for calling. Yeah, good evening. When I heard about this bill, I don't laugh in my heart. It highly affects me. It's hurting me. Because it's paramount responsibility of any responsibility to get the protection of your life so that it can be closed between the old and the new. Now, we have this slogan that came on the U.S. military terrorism. It came from America, and it was through Richard Nixon during the regional culture of the U.S. business. Which I don't think that there is a mix of artists from within now. That's how we can implement that slogan of the U.S. military terrorism. Even the U.S. government, which are using our media to spread the American-American influence, they still make initiatives in terms of through the back door. If the international community is going to call back China, 30 days now over 160 people are seeing him in the bush. So we have this freedom one would say from reliable thought that she has been in there that he needs a doctor in two days to be revived with a lot of luck right now. If you know, if this bill comes to pass now, I would not say that people the government will never negotiate with China. They will probably never have to go through the hands and say, you know, bring the government to negotiate with China to be freed and not won. We wait for what is, maybe government to provide security. Is there security to a reasonable state? That's when you cannot say that it is there is a matter of policy that you don't negotiate with the military. I don't like putting the cat before the house in this country. It is very funny, highly sensitive and wicked, wicked law that you want to bring into this country. Thank you very much. Thank you. And the thing as far as this third reading, go ahead. Peter has touched where I was going because you now talk about the fact that there are many drivers the real one is money. It's the economy. We're not just seeing which is why we see what's happening on poverty. We are just seeing it in the increase of kidnapping and ransom. You just said it with you. Even crime, breaking and entering, breaking cars, all these things are on the increase. Why? People must eat if you are hungry. Anyhow. Anyhow. And that's the reality. So there are many drivers for this problem. So when the government just comes with a bill that targets the victims for the worst of reasons, for the worst of reasons, about the impacts for the country, sanctions, whereas we are already living a hard life. I'm telling you. What are the sanctions going to add to it when people are dying like chickens? Let's take a call somewhere for Mota then I'll come to you. It's easy. Thank you for calling. Hello, Wendy. Hi, Samuel. Oh, ah. The book is over. Thank you. Um, um, on Tuesday I said we are mad in this country. We think I'm joking. Nigeria is just a joke. We have goats, sheep at the leader. Ah, Samuel, take it easy. I'm telling you, the goats and sheep are the leaders at the leader. No, take it easy. If these people can feel the power of humanity, they will know the power of God. They will know it's not even easy to take over from one place to another. We are... Oh, sugar. Somebody is asking a question that what do you do? And I want to come to ESEE on this. What do you do for the people that kidnap themselves? Which is why? Because because kidnapping, there are so many aspects like what we are. It's very profitable. So there were people that, you know, kidnapped me. They were called and they would split the money. So how do we even start to dissect the same? Because there are people that genuinely are in big trouble. Well, some people actually just say, you know what, let me just feign these things so that because it seems to be lucrative, I can get something out of it. I've seen situations where a child, you know, gets herself or himself kidnapped and have the father or mother pay a ransom on their behalf or for them. Now, in a situation like this, that child should be held accountable. When they find out, right? Yes, of course. That child should be held accountable. And if that child is held accountable, the child is above 18, yes. You should go to jail. The child can go to jail, can face the full wrath of the law. But if the child is not up to, is a minor, that is where you have to look for ways to discipline that child appropriately so that it doesn't occur again. Now, the key thing about this is that I will come back again to value. How was that child trained? What are the people, the children, who are the people that the child is exposed to? Wait, wait, wait. Let's not even go to value. Why would I even feign a kidnap in the first place? I want to think on that question. Let me take you on, guys, old man. I'll come back to you. Think on that. No, no, no. Youngest old man, you're alive. Yes. Sorry. Yes. We are very deep. Yes. Absolutely. This girl was rich because of her life. They gave birth. They gave birth and they allowed her to try to live. They fed that child to the dog. They fed it to the dog very well. She's mad. Yes, she's mentally. Thank you so much. So it's really sad. So that's why when I see bills like this, it's like you're making light of people's pain. This is jeopardy. You have given me a problem. I have a problem. Somebody that I love so much is under somewhere. I can't even tell what's happening to that person. You don't tell me that if I eventually pay this bill to release the loved one, I go to jail. Are you guys even understanding the situation? Aha. That was the place. It's not making light of it. It is a shift in perspective because I understand what that person could be going through. When I want to solve a problem, glass half full, glass half empty, there is a solution that says I drink the water. Or there's a solution that says I pour the water away. It depends on how thirsty I am. So at this point, look at the way the story was couched. It did not speak of the death of Nigeria. No, the lives of Nigeria. It talked about it from the perspective of the country, the international laws, the sanctions, which again is not a bad thing. It's not. What is that what is most important? Thank you. So perspectives are key. So I love the way we've couched it in the sense that Youngest Old Man said there is a sequence of events when you show me that security is important to you. You have taken steps and measures to improve security. You have taken steps and measures to show the criminals that crime doesn't pay because I will catch you and I will deal with you. I look at the other drivers and I look at the economy, I look at how to put money in people's pockets, I look at how to employ people, how to educate people. All of that is emotion. Then you come and say, well, I've done ABC. So it's not on us. Now if you choose to pay ransom, I will now face you because you have now become part of the problem. But you have not touched the problem at all. Not at all. Even money, actually print special money where people can be traced. It can be traced. One of those things. You've not put in any measure. But I think we have a caller as our final caller for the evening. Then I'll come back to Isi and them. I'm going to hear your final thoughts. Quickly, let's hear what you have to say. Yeah, somewhere. Let me give you my solution. I see this deal. Can you first of all apologize for calling them ships and boats? Don't apologize because you're left off. Ah, okay. They're not ready. Go ahead. Is it there? I think we've lost. Okay. So Isi, let me hear your thoughts. My thought is this. They should profile solutions first, which is what he has haped on. Prefiring solution is not about us going through the motion of just lip service or saying that we will do this, we will do this. But we should see the actions being taken place so that first, we should work with the fact that we have individuals who are not educated. We should work on literacy. We should work on the greed and the mindset of Nigerians. We should work on providing jobs for Nigerians so that if this profiteering or whatever doesn't grow beyond what we currently have. And the fact that we have individuals who are who have been traumatized by the experience of being kidnapped. When the young man was talking and he was describing the description of how the ladies were being raped and I just couldn't take it. It is quite seething for me to take in. So if we have like an anti-kidnapping sport that would be trained to actually go in there, get individuals who have done this and hold them accountable. Hold them accountable. I think yes. So we can say that the government has done their part. Which they haven't yet. Let me hear your thoughts. Before I share just a few words I have a comment here. Good evening ladies. I think this is one of the insensitive bills passed by the legislature. Why not a bill on a governor of a state that cannot handle security being impeached or some for the president? Why will it be the masses that are supposed to be protected bearing the pain? In 2023, we should elect people that really understand issues and can contribute intelligently and profile solutions. These bills encourage citizens to be kidnapped and family leaving their loved ones to be killed. We should encourage the citizens to get PVC and vote rightly. That's from BC. Thank you BC. But just to conclude I think I would want to beg our legislation to have a heart. When they're considering this think about your mothers think about your daughters think about your sons think about your your fathers it is because of a sense of a lack of consideration that's why we always have this mentality of not in my backyard so because it's not happening close to me I don't feel the pain I don't know what you're going through they kidnapped a son of yours I don't know what that feels like so I cannot empathize towards the victims I don't know what can be okay for them to pass third reading you can imagine when they begin to have a heart in their considerations when they begin to think as citizens of Nigeria if this was affecting me directly what would I do you know what if they refuse to have a heart for all the people let me say my own we can take them out getting well educated when it comes to your governance the governance structure in Nigeria so that if they refuse to have a heart like normal we take them out and put people that have a heart if those ones come again their head is not correct we move them out and it's like that so there has to be a system we get the right side of people now remember something Evans was arrested in Magudo there was a lot of fancy who is the police again that is going to arrest him again arrest him answer the name his name doesn't come quickly to mind who do I know you know the answer why are you calling me why are you calling me why are you calling me why are you calling me because he knew that he was few years down the line Supercop is being injected for being a drug peddling drugs and whatever and being part of the system my point is that even the people that are supposed to be part of the security architecture because you cannot tell me that these kidnappers our police and our army our military and our army they do not have the money to fish those people out they do not have a cut in its so-called percentile share because this thing is very profitable do you hear how much they take for ransom money so if we are ready and we are serious people before you come and pass a bill to say you want to arrest me and put me in jail for 15 years because I had to go and pay ransom that I do not have because mind you most of us don't have this ransom we have to sell things to go and pay the ransom before you say you want to come and arrest me can you please make sure that you have all your eyes and gross on your teeth you have to go to government security wise then you can come to me and tell me that yes, if you go ahead to pay that ransom I will jail you the first thing you will do is to go and meet the special escort to say you know what my person I just got a call and they will take you from there on that note we arrest our case I arrest my case thank you Noma, thank you Isi thank you Riti, I am using me to calm myself and thank you Uwa thank you to everyone that called and tried to call the phone is tearing me, sorry we can't take the calls now before we go and show you follow us on Instagram is that we show Africa you can interact with us further drop a comment and more importantly follow all the engagement on social media like share invite your families and friends to watch the show if you miss this our quotes today here it is again one of the greatest disillusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation this is one to almost read, I didn't say it so just want to think about that quote very well we will see you guys tomorrow at 8pm to bring another great conversation to your screen enjoy