 21 of the national lockdown and had it not been for the extension, today would have been our last day. And I know many people are still slightly anxious about the extension, but we all know that it's something that is much needed. Now in today's conversation, I'm actually very excited about this one because I'm sure a lot of people are trying to navigate how they can get into the property market, especially if you're thinking maybe you're not going to be able to get as many properties as you'd like on your personal capacity and want to perhaps go in with some friends or some family in buying a few properties. And of course, today's topic is taking advantage of lower interest rates as a property stock file. And we're going to be exploring, you know, first of just taking it back to basics. So exploring some of the do's and don'ts in setting up a property stock file, the best practices in setting a property stock file up, and how you can best position yourself and your property stock file in making sure that you can maximize your returns, but also take advantage of these lower interest rates. And joining me this evening, we have Slimdi Le Sia, who is the chairperson of the Saki Seas with a property stock file, as well as Baliso Le Hulu, who is a finance professional and an author. Ladies, good evening. Thank you so much for joining me this evening. So I think I'm just going to actually start with you, Baliso. You've recently published a book on stock files, and I want us to just first take it to basics around if somebody's looking into setting up a stock file, in particular property stock file, what are some of the things they actually need to be looking at in terms of their governance and perhaps structuring it as best as possible? I think, first of all, we have heard of, we know of the traditional stock file from a lot of us, especially from background where it was used to buy for basics like your groceries and your funeral community helping each other through the model. So as time goes and as we evolve with time, the stock file model is being used even as a vehicle to invest, whether it's into property or other assets. So the principles are still the same, but we need to make them much stricter if you are going to be investing in such a complicated asset as property. So the first thing, obviously, is getting the right people to come together and know that they're going to be an investment type of stock file. The right people would be, you have to know discuss this before everything else that you do. This is for investment. This is for long term. This is not a get-to-reach-quick scheme and we want to do this right. And this is the type of asset property that we are specifically looking into. So everybody is on the same page from their web goal, the right people and the type of investment that you are doing, which is property. Then you need to conduct it in putting the papers into place. So the first thing would be, obviously, drafting a constitution. The most proper thing to do would be getting the help, maybe, of a legal professional to help you draft a constitution that will be able to present your goals and the blind spots that you might come across. Because buying property or investing in an asset, you might come across things as a group. It's not the same as doing it alone. So you need to cover yourself and the members that you're starting to stop forward. So the constitution would be like your governance of the group, the governance of the stock fell in order to be able to align into your vision of what type of property you're going to be investing in, how you're going to be investing in, who are the people that you're going to be working with in terms of assisting you. And also just to line out the complications that might come up in terms of what is the expectation as members of starting this property stock fell. So the first thing and foremost is a constitution. It's the Bible of the stock fell. I just want to start to interrupt you there, but I want to bring in Slindi Le right now to just give us perhaps a sense of what are some of the things that would go into this constitution, particularly because you're a chairperson of Securities or Property Stockfell. So really looking at perhaps what are some of the clauses that you ought to be considering or almost a non-negotiable explore having this particular clause. Particularly when you're looking in investing in property or using the stock fell as a vehicle in your property investments. OK, hi ladies. So the stock fell is like it's a binding document on the members. So before you join any stock fell, whether it be property, whether it be grocery, whatever it is, that's a very important document that you should read and understand. If you don't understand, get somebody else, if you need to get a legal person to review it on your behalf, because especially with something like property, where large amounts of money are involved in the period of investment tends to be longer in nature. So some of the most important clause that would be in there, for example, is what is the vision or the mission of the stock fell? What are we trying to achieve? Because property stock fells are different which are they each achieve different objectives. Is the objective that we're going to buy each other properties as members or are we going to raise deposits when we use those deposits to buy the property? Are we going to invest in rental properties? Are we trying to achieve? So that vision of the stock fell is very important so that you make sure that you are aligned because you don't want to just enter a random stock fall and then you find out down the line that this is not actually what you had in mind. And obviously there's things around contributions. How much do you need to pay? How often do you need to pay it? What happens if you don't pay? And then also in terms of the profit sharing that's going to happen, how are you going to benefit from the stock fall? What is what is it for me as a member joining the stock fall? And then another important thing is exit. A lot of people enter into these kinds of agreements and then only to find that they've locked themselves into a five-year investment, which is illiquid and you can't get your money out for a period of five years. Understand what is the exit of it? And there's other clothes that are not as important, but I think those are the critical ones around maybe just going to be meetings, how often that happens as well as who your executives are. That's very important because you need to make sure that you put people in charge that have got the skills or the experience or even the passion to do that job, because it's mostly a thankless job in most stockfiles where you are actually at a treasurer or they're the chairperson of secretary. So people just expect you to do work for nothing. So it's sometimes a thankless job, but it's a very important one because you need to make sure that the people that are in charge of running the stock fall know what they're doing and we have got the time and passion for it. Let's also quite important things. And Balisa, what would we say are some of the best practices and not just only in property stockfiles, but in stockfiles in general that people, I think in addition to what Sli has kind of outlined should be mindful of when they are setting up their particular property stockfile. Well, firstly, you need to take your stockfiles seriously. No more just as a social play-play thing anymore if you are going to be using it as an investment. So you need to treat it almost like a business. So you need to run it professionally. Make sure that documents are in place, your constitution. You have the bank in the stockfile name. You have the right signatories, which is about three people. You you protect yourself in terms of working with experts and professionals where you lack skills in terms of running the stockfile. So for me, the most important thing is running the stockfile professionally as a business and getting help from experts in terms of where you lack skills. So constitution always needs to be reviewed at least yearly. Bank accounts, at least for open stockfiles, for example, you need to at least be able to provide the members on how you're doing financially as a stockfile, what's the money used for how is it going? Everybody must be transparent. Where is the money going? How is it going? This is how it's used. And this also eliminates a lot of the legitimacy of your stockfile, because now you know everybody knows where everybody stands in terms of their finances and also the proper registrations in place, working with the right company also protects ourselves as members. So it's important, especially with a lot of negativity that comes around stockfiles specifically. So it is up to the stockfile industry, which are the people in stockfiles to make sure that it's run properly to protect their reputation of the model. So if one stockfile likes Lindy Le's one is doing it properly, and then there will be that culture of knowing that you can actually stockfile and make it in a best practice possible by making it run like a business. So you need to take it seriously once you're using the model as an investment vehicle. So those are the most important things. So Cindy, what would you say is probably like the street spot? I mean, with any kind of stockfile, we've seen that different people do it differently. Sometimes it might just be, for example, just 10 of you who meet every month and it's socially, and sometimes you might find stockfiles that have up to 50, 100 people who are in that stockfile. I mean, oftentimes when people talk about the stockfile model, where property is concerned, they often speak about 20 people in your stockfile. If you have 20 people, and it's supposed everybody's paying $2,000 a month, at the end of the year, you'll have nearly half a million. And if there are still 20 of you, you're paying $5,000 a month, then at the end of the year, you're going to have $1.2 million. So people like throwing around those kind of numbers and say, you know, if you're in person, get 19 other people and you'll have a million at the end of the year. What would you advise or what would you say are some of the different ways to pay around with that model? Instead of just saying be 20, here's the amount at the end of the year you'll have, whether it's half a million or 1.2 million. So it boils down to what is the vision of the stockfile? Like I said, what is it that we're trying to achieve? Because if, for example, we want to buy each other houses and there's a hundred of us, it will take forever and we want to do it in turns. By the time we get to the hundredth person, it will be like 20, 30, depending on how much we are raising and what our objectives are. So really, there's no one size fits all. I can't say 10 is the magic number or 20 is the magic number. There is no magic number. It depends on what is it that you're trying to achieve. It depends on your management skills and how you can actually be managed. For example, we've got a hundred and twenty members, actually more than a hundred and twenty members, you know, which is a lot for a stockfile, you know? But I mean, we put systems in place that have enabled us to be able to handle those amounts of members and we use technology, we use a lot of automation. There's a lot that goes into the preparation and the planning and to make sure that we can handle those volumes. But if you're just like a family club and you or whatever the case might be, it might be worthwhile just to keep it small. And because as well, what tends to happen is that the more people there are, there are more people that have got opinions. So what tends to happen is that now before we can even make a decision, we need to have a meeting and a hundred people need to decide we will never get anywhere. So it really is dependent on a lot of factors, how you're able to manage the volumes, how you're able to make decisions quickly, you know, putting those executives in place, like I mentioned earlier, who are able to make decisions and like in a company scenario, you've got a director, you appoint them so that they're able to make the decisions. So now if before you even sneeze, you need to contact a hundred people, you're not going to get anywhere. So it's really, if you're a smaller group, there's four of you. It's easy to just get everybody together to make a decision and we move on. So I can't say there's a magic number. It really does depend as many variables that are at play. You're just joining us at home. This is the Private Poverty Podcast with myself, Zaman Tunga-Kumalo. And on the show this evening, of course, Lindy Lelisaiani, who's the chairperson of Saki Seaswear and Property Stockfile, as well as Balisa Lecholo, who is a finance professional and an author who's written a book on stockfiles. And we're of course talking about property stockfiles. Interest rates went down two days ago and we're really navigating how as a property stockfile you can basically the advantage of some of the opportunities that you're going to find in the property market, especially given that we're now at historically low interest rates. If you have any questions or comments, you can send them down here and I'll ask it to my guests and we'll address them. Now, ladies, one of the questions that's actually come in is from Gostinati Weisman-Kumalo, who asks, with a property stockfile, do you still essentially use a trust or is it best to keep it under a company? So can I prove that? So stockfiles are not a legal entity. So if you're not going to be partnering with a property company or a real estate company, then you're going to need to turn your stockfile in either a business, which is a company or a trust or a cooperative, depending on how many you are in the stockfile. So a stockfile on its own, because of the fact that it's not a legal entity, you're going to need partnership with a company in order to be able to do that. So what most people do is just turn the stockfile into a company, then acquire the property. Steve, do you have anything to add on to that? I think Valisa has got it. So you need to register some sort of an entity if you want to be purchasing the property in the stockfiles name. So either the entity can be a trust or it can be a property or it can be a combination of both or a cooperative. So what I would advise people who are interested in having a property stockfile is to seek legal advice because it's not a one-size-fits-all approach. In some instances, a company would be best suited. In some, it would be a trust. In some, it would be a combination of both. So really seek out the legal advice. But in some instances, even in your individual names, if your stockfiles' objective is to buy the member of the property, understand what is it that you're trying to achieve and then seek the legal advice that will enable you to reach what your vision and your goal is. Some comments coming in from people watching us at home is we've got Gomuimosa, Marta, who's saying there is money in property stockfile. And one of the other questions was from Rindani Nainichife, who was asking, how do you even start? How many people should join? And we've partially covered it. But perhaps you can take us through how would somebody start. So if people are sitting at home and are thinking, okay, this sounds like a great idea. I know I could probably get some people together or I think I can get some people together. What are the steps that they should actually essentially go through in order to have set up a property stockfile? In my experience, it takes just one other person. Like for example, if I was to switch out to dancing, I want to start a stockfile. I need to convince at least one other person, then there's two of us. And then from then on, we get the momentum, we get the third person, the fourth person, and, and, and, and, and. So I can't say go out and get all 10 people before you start because what I've found is one is that some people want a proven concept before they can join. So get people who are like-minded, who understand what you're trying to achieve. And rather you be three or four of you, but you're all aligned and you know what you're trying to achieve, then get 10 people who are just joining for the sake of joining. I would say that, you know, start with where you are, get that one or two other people who have got similar goals to you and get the ball rolling with them. Just get the momentum going because the hardest thing to do is just starting. Whereas if you just start, get the constitution going, get the, get the contributions going. Once people inquire and see what you're doing, they'll be more likely to join you. But that's what I would advise. So I mean, one of the, a question that keeps coming up and maybe we almost need to break it down at a slightly granular level. Cynthia Judgeman is asking, as well as Numbong Ongosi and Khabela Tulani, they're asking around how you're joining, right? So suppose we've now set up, I've convinced one person. So Sli, I've convinced you that let's actually start this, how do then do we get other mandates, right? Because you were mentioning earlier that one of the things that you need to look out for when you're setting up, certainly within the constitution is for example, how you exit. So if let's say we are already in, let's say three months in and it was just the two of us for that three months and we've been contributing 1,000 rands each, by the end of that three months, we're going to have 6,000 rands. So when we are now getting other people to join, are they first having to put in 6,000 rands so that they're almost in equal footing with us? Or are they just going to start at 1,000 and we'll just as well, perhaps the constitution would have made provision that then the shares are distributed in a particular way. So how do people mitigate joining a property stockfile that's already set up and running? So that depends on the constitution as well. You know, for some stockfiles, they will say that if you are joining and we're already six months in, you would need to catch up or top up what we would have paid prior to that. Whereas some other stockfiles will say, for example, for every 1,000 rand or for every 100 rand that you put in, it's equivalent to one share. So whether I've joined in November or in January, so there's a benefit for me having joined in January because I've accumulated more shares than you who only joined in November. Whereas for you who joined in November, you've got the option to pay what the others have paid. So that's another then equitable way of managing that. But it all falls down to how is your constitution so that is where that also needs to be taken into consideration to say, what happened to the join, to the late joiners, do they pay a penalty? Do they, for example, if I'm joining a stockfile that's already maybe acquired a property, they've already got an asset. How do I then, you know, capture that premium or the value that is already been built into the stockfile? So all of those kinds of things would need to be built into your constitution. And Balisa, so we heard early in the week, Reserve Bank Governor decreasing the interest rates by 1% and it's the second 1% decrease in less than a month. And of course, there probably already are property stockfiles or even just normal individuals, but certainly property stockfiles who might want to take advantage of this opportunity. How do property stockfiles sort of take advantage of opportunities like that or big events like that that happened as a unit? Well, there's two things that property stockfiles serve in my opinion. Number two is the economic conclusion of people who wouldn't necessarily be able to afford property on their own. So they join a stockfile in order to be able to do it collectively and having the buying power to be able to do in the form of investment. And then there is affordability is a big thing for me in terms of stockfiles. So that's another thing that is, and then number two would be if you are in a stockfile, you already in a collective power to be able to accumulate contributions in terms of capital raising and getting properties. Now with the cards, members number one needs to understand how does it affect them within the property stockfile and within them. So for me, I'm big on educating members within stockfiles whether you are in a property stockfile, in a grocery stockfile is very important to know what is the money that you are contributing doing. So in a property stockfile, the first thing that you need to know as a property stockfile member is the fact that now that the rates have gone down, it means now properties becoming more affordable than before the interest as much has been cut. So you need to understand that that is gonna be have a bit of, you're gonna be buying, you can't be able to buy more properties now because of cheaper. So that's the first thing that members needs to understand. And then how you can, how you need to have a strategy now in terms of, now you're gonna be having a bit of money to move around with, are you gonna be investing in more properties because now there's a bit of cash flow or are you gonna be using it for other things within the investment of properties? So it's very important for the ongoing property education within members and to understand how this affects them specifically that now we are making an investment. I like people within property stockfile to ask the relevant questions, to ask like, okay, now we're investing in this property and the interest rate has gone down. What does that mean? Does that mean are we getting a higher rate? Are we gonna be making more money? What are you gonna be doing now differently from how we acquired in December when the interest rate was a bit higher? So it's very important to keep in communication with that and understanding and not being just a lazy investor as per se. Because these are the things that can help you even personally, which is another advantage of being in a stockfile. You learn together and you're in the position to be able to acquire more information. Yeah, so Stingy, I mean, you're a part of, you're a chairperson of a property stockfile. What are some of the questions do you think somebody should be asking before they join a particular stockfile? So if they're coming to yourselves or they want to join you or any other stockfile, well, what are some of the questions would you preemptively say people should already ask before making that big decision of actually joining a particular stockfile? I think you'd need to understand around the finances, if there's a training fee, how much is it? Contributions, you know, what is it that you're committing yourself to? You'd need to understand, like I said, what we're trying to achieve here, what is that vision? You'd need to understand what is the exit, like what's the locking period, it's very important. You would need to understand what happens to my money. What are we investing in? Are we passive investors? Are we active investors? Are we going to go out there pounding the streets with cancer deals or are we going to be passive investors or investing in property shares, whatever the case is? You need to understand all of that. And you need to understand what is the level of risk that my investment is being exposed to? How am I going to make sure that I get the return that I'm expecting and understand the upside and the downside, the risks that I involve? So do your homework around that, do that, do diligence. Understand who are the people that are running the software? You know, don't just see a software wherever it is. Because I mean, traditionally, software is now a community that's based on, you know, people who knew each other, whether they're family or friends or church members or people within the same community. But now where the world is going is that we're now global in the digital. So now you're able to find people online that maybe you wouldn't have in the past. So do a better research, dig a load, define, understand who exactly are these people, especially those open type of doctors, who are these people that are investing in and what is their background? And Melissa, any questions you'd like to add to that, that people should be asking the new stock file that they'd like to draw on? The type of property stock fell is it. There's a big misunderstanding when it comes to property investment in the stock fell industry. Everybody thinks property stock filling is by each other houses. There's three most popular one. Obviously the home ownership one, the building supplies one and the property investment one. So the home ownership one would be obviously the longer term one, where people are gonna be putting money together for like maybe five to 10 years in order to buy each other property. There you need to really involve experts and lawyers and everybody in making sure that nobody is being done a disservice in a way like the 10th person, for example, and they're usually a smaller group. So properties stock fell when you are asking to join one, make sure you know which one within the property investment is it. The one where you buy each other household supply, I mean, building supplies, or the one where you buy each other houses, or the one where you are investing in property. So the one that is really becoming very popular and much easier to stock fell around is the property investment one where people are just gonna be investing in property for income, not necessarily for to reside in those properties, is to just to invest in property, like buying property to rent out so that every, and then that rent is distributed to members. It's easier to manage than the other ones, but the point is make sure you know what type of property stock fell you are in those three. So already I'm just mentioning those three, but there's even more within the property industry. So other people raise money to buy land. So there is still falls under property. So the question should be so investing in property. John, just be excited by the word property. No, and must be go with them with your vision as Linda said, what type of investment you would want to be, to go into, because when you're going into, alone going into as a group, make sure that you do why it's convenient for you, for example. We've got a question here from Spiso Chimbuzzi who's asking how do you benefit from rates in the collective, or there needs to be a juristic entity for finance? So I think they're asking if you've essentially set it up, whether let's say it's a trust or as a PTY, is that the juristic person that would be trying to access the finance and how do they essentially benefit if they are collective? So if you're purchasing a property in a juristic entity, like a trust or a company, you'd need to, depending on the type of stuff, for some stuff, they want to purchase the property for cash upright. So they would rather wait until they've got the money before they go in and actually purchase. And some are actually happy to take on dates. And also you need to understand what the members need to be comfortable with dates. And some people are not, but some people are. And also if you are comfortable with dates, what the level of dates would be. For example, you'd say you want to put in a big deposit of 30% or 40% or whatever the case might be. So where you benefit is that, obviously, when you're purchasing a bond, when you're getting a bond, sorry, it's normally paid to the interest rates, whether that be normally at the prime rate. So when the interest rate starts going down, it means that your repayments become less, which frees up cash flow for you because now there's now a gap between, especially if your rent remains the same and now your bond is reducing. I mean, we've had 2.25 production in interest rates this year already. That's a big difference in terms of how much you'd be paying on a monthly basis. So that now allows you to have those reserves available or that cash flow that's causative that comes back into the pool, which essentially could, for example, if you're paying 1,000 rent and the savings that you've had from December to now the 1,000 rent, that's essentially a free member contribution that's now coming in as additional cash, which now allows you to stay up a lot quicker than before. And I'd like to hear from both of you ladies around what are some of the lessons from either running or being part of a stockpile, but particularly a property stockpile that you've picked up along the way. So lessons that you'd like to share with our viewers at home around being part of a property stockpile. Well, I'm likely to be part of Linda's stockpile. So I'm also part of Sarkisizu. It's so convenient for me because I'm very, I'm very busy. So for me, I'm an investor at heart. I'm a passive investor. I don't want anything that's gonna make me work. I just wanna put my money into the right people's hands and then they must do and let them work it and however they, and I do my thing. So what I like specifically with Sarkisizu being part of that property stockpile is the fact that I don't have to worry about anything. They have partnered with Property Expect. They've done all the groundwork and most importantly, they're quite transparent when they're about to invest in the new property. They let everybody know the breakdown of the finances of this is how much we are taking from each category. This is how much we have. This is how much it's left. So it leaves you with no questions but most importantly, it's convenient to be able to be in such a stockpile because now it doesn't need your efforts to be involved. Yes, you need to be aware and ask questions and like, where is this building? What does it look like? Is there a building that actually exists? It's a very important thing as a stockpile member because of the scams that are around even the property stocks on the industry. It's an important thing to ask when you are in the property stockpile. This building that you say we are investing in, can I see it? Where is it? It's one of the most important questions to ask as a member. So for me, if your package is full of everything that I would ask as an investor and it's still convenient, it's a good experience for me as a stockpile member. And the lessons for me, especially with the way stockpiles are going with technology and everything is how technology is also making the stockpiling experience much easier. We're using an app that is transparent like Stockpile being able to communicate and holding Zoom meetings in terms of shows that there is progression as the world we are progressing. We are using this and old model of stockpile but we're moving where the world is moving in terms of technology and how we connect to ourselves. But most importantly, if you are gonna be an investing stockpile you need to make sure that you educate your members and you yourself are informed. And just to protect yourself from all the scams and making the stockpile also a legit movement in a way. So for me, property stockpiling has been quite a good experience so far. I'm looking to even diversify in the property stockpile because I really like property as an asset. See any lessons that you've learned along the way? Lessons that I've learned along the way is that transparency is key, especially when money is concerned. I think Valencia has touched on that. So, you know, just that over communicating, you know, because people need to know exactly what's happening at any given point in time and they need to feel that you are accessible and that you are reachable and that at every point in time they can, they know exactly what's going on. So I think for us that's really how to bring out the, because I mean we have infosessions, we have virtual sessions, we use in the app that Valencia has mentioned, stockpile away each and every single money that goes in and out, members get notifications. You know, even when we were throwing funds, we need to tell the members beforehand of this is where the money is going, you know, so that they don't know what's going on, they're free to object and all of that and the money then doesn't get released, you know. So I think just that and just being organized and running like a business, running professionally, even though we are a stockpile and it's a social concept in South Africa, but it's got so much potential when it's being used and packaged correctly. So I think those are the lessons that I've learned, you know, in terms of just putting the systems in place and running it like a proper business and making sure that you just maintain the transparency and communication with your members at all times. And ladies, you know, what would you say is one of the best ways for your property stockpiles to decide if they want to go from, let's say to go either residential or commercial property, what are some of the considerations they should be thinking about when looking at how to disperse the funds that they have in choosing those two types of property streams, essentially. I would say it's your level of experience in education. I mean, I'm not familiar with the commercial space. So, I mean, if you were to leave that decision to me, it would be, you know, if you're gambling with your money. So it really does go down to your own skills and comfort level. So where you feel that you know what's in this area, I don't know what I'm doing, find somebody who knows what they're doing, either as a coach or as a consultant, to come on board and work with your stockpile to help you make the right decision size. If you're gonna be running stockpiles as businesses, you must be willing to spend money that are going to money in the right way. So if it means paying somebody to help us make the right decisions in terms of getting into the commercial space, then that'd be so. Like for example, you can also be having your executives who have never even bought primary residential managing your income, you know, your rental income properties, like how's that gonna happen? So it's all good and well to be excited like Alice was saying about how we want to invest in property, but also check yourself, understand what's my level of experience? What do I know? I mean, you've never signed an OTP before for your own property and now you're gonna be investing in property and dealing with tenants and dealing with maintenance. Like how? You know, I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying if that's what you want, be prepared to put in that print in the work. You know, be prepared to go for property education or coaching whatever the case might be or to partner with someone to work with you until you're at a place where you're comfortable to do that. Now, ladies, before I let you go, I think the last question would be, do you have any tips for our listeners at home in terms of how they can spot a scam? I mean, Balisa, you briefly mentioned this, but what tips would you have for our viewers in the best way to spot a potential scam or an actual property scam? Because we're seeing a lot of those. And a lot of people bringing up models around property stockfiles and six months later or a year later, they've got your money, but you, and they've essentially run away with them. But what are some of the things that people should be maybe aware of or ways that they can use to spot a particular or a potential scam? Well, first of all, if you are going to join any stockfile, you're gonna have to do proper due diligence because it's such a low regulated industry, you need to do your own homework and do it properly. And these scams have become so higher grade these days that we come out. So they look very properly, their presentations are tops and everything. So informing yourself for me is one of the ways of protecting yourself. Like if you are, if you know how things work within the property industry, if you know the financial information you should be looking out for, it's easy, I always say financial education within stockfiles can prevent, can prevent so many stockfile members but to be scammed because you will know it from far away by just applying the simple financial education principles. So for me, one of the red flags would be exorbitant returns within very short space of time would be one of the things that I would question. And I remember when you're looking for scams within stockfiles, you put your list and you don't write it off just because of those things. That's where you're supposed to be deeper looking. So for me, I always do because I'm always looking to join progressive stockfiles. So for me, I always make a list of, okay, if the returns are like this, they are too exorbitant, then that means I have to dig deeper into why, how has it made, what backs them up. I mean, if you're saying you're going to be investing in property that is gonna be returning 50% return per annum, I want to know what kind of property is this that is so, so amazing. Like I need to see it. I need to understand how it makes money. So the asset that backs up whatever investment you're making until you need to understand it and you need to understand how it makes money. For me, that is the most important thing. You need to understand where you put your money, how it makes money. When you are putting your money in shares, in shop right shares, for example, you know how shop right works, you know that sells food, there is a shop right at the corner and it's a legit company is registered with the JSE and if you use your money, you'd know where to go, you know where their offices are, how accessible they are. So I use the same principle when I'm shopping for a stockfile to join and I need to, I verify everything. I even go to as far as asking for the constitution and the financials of the stockfiles. If it's still a new stockfile, I need a plan on vision on how they are going to, I know not all stockfiles are able to provide what you're looking for, but I need something to give me comfort to be able to look to say, okay, I'm comfortable with their finances, I'm comfortable with the asset that they are investing in, comfortable how they are using their money, I'm comfortable with the companies that they're working with and they're registered and they're legit. So those are the extra homework, unfortunately you're going to have to do for yourself. There's absolutely no going around that. I mean, if you're going to be putting away your money, whatever the amount is, whether it's a nominal amount, like having a drain every month or as much as 5,000 rounds every month, the importance of doing your due diligence before you put that money away is so important because if you're looking at it from a cumulative perspective, because it's often not a once-off amount, you know, you're paying everything on month, you need to know that you're essentially going to get value for your money. Ladies, thank you so much for joining me this evening. This has been quite an insightful conversation. I'm sure many people at home now understand property stockfiles just a little bit better and are able to make better decisions whether they want to set one up or they want to maybe better run the ones that they're already in, perhaps they don't have the right governance structures in place. This conversation has certainly helped them with that. There was, of course, Celine Dionysia, who's the chairperson of Saki Seizu, a property stockfile, as well as Bale Saliholo, who is a finance professional and author. And we're talking about how you can take advantage of lower interest rates as a property stockfiles and really looking at some of the dues and don'ts as a property stockfiles in ways that you can, of course, maximize your returns. If you've been watching us, you've, of course, been watching the private property podcast and if you have any other, if you want to catch up, rather, on some of our past episodes, you can go on to our YouTube channel. And if you have any rentals, selling, or buying needs, you can go into our website on www.privatepuppet.co.z. I've been your host, Zaman Donga Kumalo, and thank you so much for joining us this evening. Ladies, thank you.