 Today, we're going to talk about Lori Valodabell, also known as the Doomsday Mom. And she is a fantastic study. Greg Ronstell, it's about the videos we're going to watch. Yeah, this video is a long time ago. This is right after her ex-husband was killed, however he was killed, we'll learn in the video. But this is hours after her ex-husband was killed by a gunshot from her brother. Now she is on trial in Idaho for the murder of her children and her current husband's ex-wife. This is also a charge to take her back to Arizona for the murder of her ex-husband. So intricate case and this is a fun one to watch. Okay, I know this sounds silly, but it's probably the easiest way to start is just to tell me what happened. And then so you can start what makes the most sense to you and we'll just work our way through. I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions just to kind of clarify. So I know you talked to the initial patrol officer. And he just got information. Okay. So yeah, if you can just kind of tell me kind of what happened. It sounds like some of this may have started last night or something along those lines. So start what you think it makes the most sense. Okay, so, um, I told you, it's a crazy question. Well, so we moved into this house three weeks ago because he offered to get me a house here where all my family is, remember in Houston. And, um, so he's like, we had decided to separate or whatever. So we, he's like, well, I'll pay for a house for you and for JJ and whatever because he's all about JJ. He's never about Tyler, but he's all about JJ because we adopted him together. He says great nephew. We adopted him as a baby. And so we adopted him as baby and so we've been raising him together. And he travels all the time for business. So he's used to just going back and forth. So he's always been on like Monday through Friday. So he came when we first moved in and brought me stuff from Houston, like a U-Haul. And then he hasn't been back, but it's all these threats on my phone all the time, you know, like whatever, all these things. And then he told me, just, you'd have to read them to me, but he's always mad at me. And he doesn't want a divorce, but I don't like him and don't want to tell him. So that's just how it is. So we married for 14 years and don't have for 14 years of him being horrible to her. Like he gets in huge fights with her. He, you know, a lot of things. But anyway, so he said, I'm coming Wednesday night all of a sudden. I'm not, I want to see JJ. And I told him, I said, I will never keep JJ from you. You can come see me whenever you want to come take him to school or whatever. Like, I'm not going to do that. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, OK, look, some simple things here. I would suggest she's minimized rather than maximized. What do I mean like that? Well, she's taking up as minimal room as she can rather than maximizing the room that she takes up, the space that she takes up. We'll see a minimize even more during this. In fact, we'll see a minimize over this in a way that I've never seen before a baseline change, which is probably the biggest I've ever seen in my life. Abdomen is concave as well, tucked in again, protective. Blink rate is is high, I would say, even for somebody being interviewed in in this way. So Blink rate is already, I think, quite high as a baseline. She's forward in her chair, though. So she's she's interested. She's she's paying attention. So that could be something to do with the concave nature of her. Abdomen as well, you know, curled in here for protection. Very active hands, very active descriptors, lots of symmetry, but lots of asymmetry as well. One last thing on this that emphasis on 14 years, 14 years seems that she wants some kind of approval around that or certainly wants us to pay a lot of attention to this idea of 14 years. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, Mark, I love the fact you start off with baseline because we're going to see fantastic baseline, baseline deviations from this. And I always say the organism does what made the organism successful. This woman is a queen of what she does. And we're going to watch her through here, walk down. She doesn't do chaff and redirect. She does chaff, chaff, chaff and disparage victim. We're going to watch it. It goes on and on and on. If it was chaff and redirect, she'd be giving you something to go after. She isn't. She's just talking until you let her go the next path and she disparages the victim for those of you who read method folks. Guess what? She's telegraphing what she wants to hear from you. So that's a great opportunity for us to talk about read method as we work through here. There's a really smart guy who talks about planes and talks about passion planes and grotesque plane and truth plane. Watch the planes in this woman. She starts off locked down. These barriers are beautiful. She's got barrier. There's a hands between her knees. And you can tell I'm going to start but call her big Lori little Lori as we go through this whole thing. It's a very different personality. She's apprehensive until she finds out what to expect. And there's in the 80s, there was a song called because I'm blonde. I have a feeling this woman has made her lifestyle on that because I'm blonde. And in the in the lyrics to that, the woman would say, be hello. You know what I mean? She would finish no sentences. She would just trail off and we see that a lot from Lori. She starts off with front of mouth talking and increase point crates, which we indicate mean stress. And she's being solicitous to the person who's talking to her. Then when she realizes what's going on the sides of her mouth to pull down her head or four heads up and nodding. That's all intake data intake. And that's a frown of understanding is all it is. But when she tells her a start word, it makes most sense. Watch that blink rate fade. Boom. And then she goes to M M. She's delaying confrontation there. She leans and I blocks and gives some nervous laughter. And we're going to see that a few times in this thing. This is probably one of the weirdest ones we've seen to yet. And I think, Mark, you might be right. Baseline deviation buckle up. This is a good one. Scott, what do you got? All right, I this this may be my very favorite one because we're looking at a straight up, in my opinion, psychopath. And I want to go through why I think so. Why my hypothesis that she is one as we go through this. Mark, you nailed it. I don't know what else to say about that. Let's see what's important. She laughs in every video except two, except number three and number four. She's she laughs in every one of them. We're talking about someone who has just seen her ex-husband killed or was there when he was killed. What, two or three hours ago? And she's she's so calm. Everything is just fine. It's like she's just come. It sounds like she's at a teacher's meeting. Sounds like whatever kids got in trouble. She's down there talking about that, but the kid didn't get that much trouble. They said, come here. We need to talk about this. This is what this sounds like. The interrogator does such a fantastic job with this because what a psychopath does is they try to mimic the person they're talking to to get to engage them. We see a lot of romance in here where she tries to mimic the interrogator to get the interrogator to like her. It's fantastic. But the interrogator, I think she knows what's going on because some of these things, as we go through this, I'll point out some of the things where you go, she understands what's happening here because she's asking this or she's doing this. She does some classic like you were saying, Greg, read technique stuff right down the line almost. And she does a great job at those. You can tell she's done it a hundred times now. But Lori hasn't had a chance to structure her story yet. So as she goes through that, she's taking her time. She and she she laughs a little bit too much. And but she's what we're going to see her. Even though she's tucked in and down, we're going to see her go lower and lower and lower and turtling and turtling. We're finally we're going to see her hands below her knees on this when we get toward the end. It is something else to see this. Her in this case, her illustrators are fluid, but they're fairly low. So she's not shown a lot of confidence with what she's talking about. I know the fellow you're talking about, Greg, for the for the truth playing things, a friend of mine, known for for quite a while. And he does a whole thing on he does a whole thing. How I'm sure which he would go through that if he were on here about the differences in those and how we're seeing those changes as we go along. And then she's creating the reason this happened when she's asked the question. She's recreating the reason this happened, not what happened. So let's talk about what happened. She doesn't tell what happened. She tells the reason it happened. So that this is just bells and whistles of watch out, something's up here. And keep in mind, she's she takes time to create this story because she hasn't had time to structure it yet. I think when she and her brother planned this, if it was a plan, everything went as they expected. But it's not how she doesn't have her story ready yet. She has she she hasn't gotten to where this, this, this and this. She's and she's really laid back about the whole thing. That's the scary part about this, if in fact she was a psychopath. This one, none of this would bother her. Listen to what she's talking about. Listen to the question she's being asked and look at how she responds. Look at her body language overall. This is basic body language stuff we'll be looking at. So Chase, what do you got? You don't know a lot of the body language here. But I think the interviewer does a great job. She's saying, start where you think it makes the most sense. This is a great strategy in interviews, because it allows the other person to pick what they think is relevant and it avoids leading them into a hard starting point. And this lets you know if they're going to go through a rehearsed story or not, just how they respond to this one question. And right away, you're seeing something called G.H.T. Gestural Hemispheric Tendency, whether or not we gesture one side positive, one side negative. She uses her right hand like this and gestures off to her right to talk about anything negative. And her left side is used for positive topics while she's discussing the negative relationship with one child and the positive and loving relationship with the other. You're going to see this. This type of information can help us in a lot of ways. But most importantly, we're going to use this to see where she gestures in the future about certain issues so we can see how she feels about them. And later in the interview, an interviewer can move toward that spot and start gesturing a certain way to change or maybe change the way she perceives something as positive or negative, depending on how you want to frame it. And no one who's being threatened will gloss over being threatened unless they're either lying or trying to protect the person who did it. So she uses the word whatever to describe these threats. And then when she's asked about the threat, she displays this uncommon hesitancy before answering and just lacks the ability to answer just a reasonable question. Now, at the end of this, you'll see more of this left and right G.H.T. data coming up when she's saying horrible to her. She's using her right hand again. I think it's her right. Yeah, her right hand again and even pointing in that direction with her thumb. And this is a very valuable data to an interviewer. But you can use this in any conversation that you ever have to identify these critical indicators like this. And I think just this one clip. I alone and not even included in these other guys here, I could do probably a three hour training on this one clip. Like we could spend a day dissecting this thing. Easily. Yeah, that's all I got. The island is huge. OK, I know this sounds silly, but it's probably the easiest way to start is just to tell me what happened. And then so you can start what makes the most sense to you. And we'll just work our way through. And I'll probably ask you a bunch of questions is to kind of clarify. So I know you talked to the initial patrol officer. And he just got information. OK, so yeah, you can just kind of tell me kind of what happened. It sounds like some of this may have started last night or something along those lines. So start where you think it makes the most sense. OK, so I told you it's a crazy question. Well, so we moved into this house three weeks ago because he offered to get me a house here where all my family is, remember in Houston. And so he's like we had decided to separate or whatever. So we he's like, well, I'll pay for a house for you and for JJ and whatever, because he's all about JJ. He's never about Tyler, but he's all about JJ because we adopted him together. He's his great nephew. We adopted him as a baby. And so we adopted him as baby. And so we've been raising him together. And he travels all the time for business. So he's used to just going back and forth. So he's always been on Monday through Friday. So he came when we first moved in and brought me stuff from Houston, like a U-Haul. And then he hasn't been back. But it's all these threats on my phone all the time, you know, like whatever, all these things. And then he told me what kind of threats just he'd have to read them to me. But he's always mad at me, right? And he doesn't want a divorce, but I don't like him and I don't know. So that's just how it is. So we married for 14 years. I've dealt with it for 14 years of him being horrible to her. Like he gets in huge fights with her. He, you know, a lot of things. But anyway, so he said, I'm coming on Wednesday night all of a sudden. I want to see JJ. And I told him, I said, I'll never keep JJ from you. You can come see whatever you want to come take him to school, whatever, like, I'm not going to do that. So I said, just go. And so he said, okay, so I gave him a backpack. He got in the car. This is his in-law, right? He always leaves something in the house and comes back. He never leaves the first time. I always expect my husband to come back into the house today. So I guess he has left his phone on the counter. So he initially left with the backpack and with JJ? And so he put it in the car, in the driveway and then he came back in, right? So I kissed JJ goodbye. He came back in and his phone was on the counter and I had his phone. And he was like, give me my phone. And I was like, why don't you show me your text that you've been texting all the while? You know, whatever. Because he's like, acting really weird. Like he's plotting something and just be like, I'm like, why are you, why are you even here? Like, what did you come here for? You know, he's been talking to my other brother and my brother came into town at the same time last night. And I haven't talked to my brother in a while. My other brother and I was like, and so he was texting him on the phone when he first got to my house and I'm like, why are you texting Adam? Like, do you even talk to him? Like my other brother. And, you know, he's been telling me all these texts. Like, you're going down, blah, blah, blah, blah. He's blaming me for our marriage breaking up and my niece getting divorced and my friend getting divorced. He said, I'm a destroyer of families because I want everybody to get divorced. What would my motivation be for people getting divorced? So I could babysit the kids more. Like, why would I have any control over what people do? Yeah. So it's just very odd. But anyway, he goes nuts. He's gone nuts on us a lot of times. Ted and I have had to leave with JJ over the years, probably five times in just staying in a hotel for two days because he goes nuts. Like, you don't know what's gonna set him off. Like, whatever. And she's mad at me for always like going back, but we had JJ and he special needs and it's really hard. Like, it's even harder to get her back. So when you say he goes nuts, that's... All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, one of my favorite things about her, whatever, is those are bumpers for her. And by that, I mean, when she's chaffing and going to change directions, pay attention. That whatever is her bumper. She goes, boom, hits that and turns. If you know that and you're interrogating somebody and go, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on a minute. Whatever, what? And just start poking them because she goes, whatever, blah, blah, blah, back to the BLO, you know what I mean from that 80s lyric, song lyric, because that's been something she's been successful with before. She can avoid conflict, she can do whatever it takes. This is a, again, I'm gonna call this a modified form of chaff and redirect because she doesn't have a real plan where the chaff is going to take her and something to throw out that you'll pick up and run with. She proves that because at one point, the woman asks her a question based on her chaff and she's like, oh, oh, and she stammers to answer it. So she's not chaffing and redirecting. She's chaffing until she gets the opportunity to say, this guy needed to be killed is basically what she's saying. She's running down the thing and in the South we would say that mentioned he needed killing. This guy might, that's, she just as well say that. She says he was dumb, he took the phone, he would always come back. Then they get in a fight about the phone. When she does whatever, blah, blah, blah, she's avoiding something significant here in my opinion. This is where that fight starts and it's over that phone. Now, whether that's a set up or not, it's another story. She's locked down, she's in sacred space and what I mean by sacred space is she has a barrier, a way of blocking something between you and me and rubbing her hands or adapting as a way to release nervous imaging. That is creating space and taking control of the space with something you're comfortable doing. She starts to balance a good bit when she's talking about her brother, Adam. There's a lot of movement. Something's going on, something has to go somewhere. Most of this has nothing to do with what happened. Almost everything she says is that and then when she's controlling the conversation, she's turtling, she's shrinking. We're seeing her baseline deviate. Pay attention. If you wanna see what a baseline looks like, look at the teddy bear in the chair next to her. It doesn't change. Now, pay attention and compare her to the teddy bear over time and see who gets smaller. It's like a limbo contest between her and the teddy bear. Chase, what do you got? That's pretty good. Love that analogy. And just word whatever or seems to be her word for whenever she wants something to appear more detailed but she's unable to add any details because they're probably not there. She's using forms of speech that are typically seen. So let's, I'm giving you some behavior profiling stuff here, not just body language, but some deep level of behavior profiling. This speech that she's using is typically seen in trendy, I would say 20-somethings. We have what, like whatever, vocal fry, up talk and she's I think 46. These on their own don't show us much, but when you process this fully, you'll realize she's not a 20-something. She's give or take 46 in this clip. She tells us more about her behavior than most people will see here. And as an interviewer, seeing a 40-something use these trendy vocal behaviors. This tells us that she's vulnerable to social influence from popular young women online. As an interviewer, this lets me know she's strongly driven by social reward. This also means that she's strongly driven by the fear of social consequences of her actions. So I now know that this will be the most powerful reason as the interviewer for her not to confess or not to be honest in an interview with me because of this fear is gonna be governing a lot of that. It's also the most powerful avenue that I can take when influencing her or getting her to confess. It's interesting her denial of being the destroyer of families I think she uses is about her lack of control instead of lack of desire. That hit me in the stomach pretty deep there. Scott, what do you got? All right, this is where we find out that she's the problem. And if I was talking to her, I would be under the assumption from this moment on, she started it, whatever it is that the encounter or the engagement of this fuss that started because she says she's checking his phone looking for texts and stuff. And she goes on talking about how he's chasing her around and doing all this stuff. So she's the problem here. So I think like going back to your thing, Greg, was it something that you said, I don't know if we talked about that before we started or after. How maybe they set this up to make him mad so he would do something and the brother would have a reason to shoot him or they would have reason for it to go full out like that. So what we're seeing is again, that a psychopath will show you you to the things you need to be looking for as far as if she's a psychopath, one of the things we look for is how the emotion doesn't match with what's going on. Her emotions are all calm. There's nothing, if you may as we're gonna talk about shooting and stuff and she's gonna look the same way she does right now. She's gonna be talking just like, she's talking to somebody she sorta knows or just mad is trying to impress. That's really important because at the same time, she's taken on that part number two is she's taken on the voice tone and cadence of the interrogator. She's trying to show her her. So this is a fantastic study in watching how one of these things works from the minute they start talking as they go through and even when she gets threatened in a couple of parts of this interview, she doesn't, you don't see it on her. She doesn't show it because she can't. There's no way to do that. You can make those, you can make them mad but she doesn't get mad. She gets upset at being corrected but I'm saying too much already. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, one thing that really interests me on this, when you listen to her story at the start, notice how she isn't responsible for stuff. It's a cascade of cause and effect where something else or somebody else causes something, there's an effect and then that causes something else and then this and then this and at no point is she there interjecting to go and so I did this and so I did that and so then this happened. So, you know, in Chase, maybe in your words, she's trying to get across maybe the idea that she's not in control. She doesn't have that internal locus of controlling or even external. It's like, she just isn't in control and she even says it. She says, well, why would I have control ever what people do? Well, as a mother, you'd want a lot of control over what people do. As a parent, as somebody who lives in a home and has kids running around, you want a lot of control over what people do or it is utter mayhem. It lets you like complete mayhem and I think she probably doesn't because I see how she's put herself together and she's pretty well put together. She certainly has enough control that she can exercise at the level to get that muscle tone that she has, a lot of discipline there, a lot of control there. So I think she's protesting too much and therefore I think I'm gonna go to the opposite end. I'm gonna say she likes a lot of control. I would say she wants to control as much as she possibly can. In fact, at the end of that, she has emphatic symmetrical gestures. There's a smile for approval. There's then an eye block and then a pointing into self. So there's too much going on there to try and convince me that she has no control. Unconvinced, all she wants is a lot of control. There, that's all I got on that one. All right, if you don't know who we are, we're the behavior panel and I'm Scott Rouse, my body language expert and analyst and I trained law enforcement in the military and interrogation in body language. And I created the number one online body language course, body language tactics with Greg Hartley, Mark. I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language. Help people all over the world to stand out, win trust, gain credibility every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7, Chase. My name is Chase Hughes. I did 20 years in the US military, wrote the number one best selling book on behavior profiling, influence and persuasion and you can get training in that. Just type my name into your app store. Greg. Greg Hartley, I'm a former Army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor. I've written 10 books on body language and behavior, including one that's in the top 10 for business negotiation right now. The most dangerous business book you'll ever read and put together the number one online body language tactics.com course with Scott Rouse. Yeah, I would, Mrs. Hughes. So I said, just go. And so he said, okay, so I gave him a backpack. He got in the car and this is his ML, right? He always leaves something in the house and comes back. He never leaves the first time. I always expect my husband to come back into the house, right? So I guess he has left his phone on the counter. So he initially left with a backpack and with JJ? And so he put them in the car, in the driveway and then he came back in, right? So I kissed JJ goodbye, he came back in and his phone was on the counter and I had his phone and he was like giving me my phone and I was like, why don't you show me your text that you've been texting all the while? You know, whatever. Because he's like, acting really weird. Like he's plotting something and just be like, why are you even here? Like, what did you come here for? You know, he's been talking to my other brother and my brother came into town at the same time last night and I haven't talked to my brother in a while. My other brother and I was like, and so he was texting him on the phone when he first got to my house and I'm like, why are you texting Adam? Like, do you even talk to him? Like my other brother. And, you know, he's been telling me all these texts like, you're going down, blah, blah, blah, blah. He's blaming me for our marriage breaking up and my niece getting divorced and my friend getting divorced. He said, I'm gonna destroy your own families because I want everybody to get divorced. I'm like, why would my motivation be for people getting divorced? So I could babysit the kids more. Like, why would I have any control over what people do? Yeah. So it's just very odd. Anyway, he goes nuts. He's gone nuts on us a lot of times. Ted and I have had to leave with JJ over the years, probably five times and just stay in the hotel for two days because he goes nuts. Like, you don't know what's gonna set him off. Like, whatever. And she's mad at me for always like going back but we had JJ and he's special needs and it's really hard. Like it's even hard to take care of her by yourself. So when you say he goes nuts, that's hard to take care of her by yourself. So when you say he goes nuts, that means that can mean a lot of different things. So goes nuts like yelling and screaming. He goes nuts like bringing things. Goes nuts like physical violence. He's never really, besides like grabbing us or pushing us but not like punching us or something but with Tylee he has gotten physical before. And with my grown son. Like physical how? Like got into a physical fist fight with my son when he was 16. And he came after Tylee two times in Hawaii. Okay. And like went like he was gonna hit her but then I got in between them, right? How old was she when that happened? Probably 14, 13 and 14. Okay. Chase, what do you got? This video really shows us why pronouns are so important. She's making the denial about aggression being against us. He didn't show aggression against us. So when you hear this and you wanna ask a follow-up question you should use the pronoun of a group instead of singular people. What did he do to you guys? And everyone was safe. Did he hurt you all? This is great instead of the singular stuff and it helps this person to identify with the question and continue along their natural language pattern with their answers. And again, she's pointing to negative references on one side while mentioning Tylee and him getting physical. And keep paying attention to this and you're gonna see something interesting emerge here in these clips. I think most of this was honest and she's not skipping over a lot of words. Her body narration of the physicality of the interactions was clear and well timed. It was demonstrated in what she was talking about. And that's kind of what we look for when someone or when we see somebody using their body tell a story those three elements right there. And we see that here. So I'm thinking some of that physical interaction some of the physical violence that she's describing there actually did happen. And I think that's probably real. Mark. Yeah, here's a couple of areas that I have problems with Chase. Two times in Hawaii, she says and then there's a pronounced tongue jut. Now, having said that, is it a tongue jut because of her distaste for the violence that occurred? Or is it a tongue jut because of her distaste for making up a story or a detail in the story? Maybe it was one time in Hawaii. Maybe it wasn't Hawaii, but there was violence. Listen, I'm not a mind reader, none of us are. So I don't know exactly, but I know there's an issue there of distaste somewhere around the two times in Hawaii. So were we in a position to do this? We might go back and we might ask again to try and work out what that distaste might be about. Probably 14 or 13 comes up. Then there's an eye block where the head completely shades, it goes down. It doesn't go down into emotion or memory. I think it's a true eye block. She just, she doesn't wanna look at the interviewer at this point. So again, around probably 13, 14, why the eye block around her child's age? My guess is it's not about the child's age. My guess is it's around the story about violence being perpetrated on the child. Now, am I saying that no violence was perpetrated on the child? I have no idea, absolutely no idea. But I know there's probably an issue around that somewhere. Could be an issue around the violence if it happened. Again, were I in the position, I might go back. I might ask again, now I know where to pinpoint on. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, we're gonna get a lot of people who say you don't recognize that people who've been abused get X, Y, and Z. Look, that's not what any of us are saying. What we are saying, however, is there are patterns that we are seeing in a person's behavior deviating from baseline to this. And you'll see a cascade in this person. Chase, I think, yes, those pronouns matter and how you talk to the person because that's their choice of how they're organizing their thoughts and that's powerful. However, in this case, I also think she's chosen these words to wrap herself in some kind of protecting other people. If he beat me up, that's one thing, but if he beat my children and his children and his adopted children and my cousin and Bob and the guy who shakes the bell at the, I would call little guys going Christmas, that guy. If he beats all those guys up now, if I heard him, it's better than if he just slapped me one time and I shot him. So I think we have to be careful with people because we don't know what happens in relationships in a person's salvation armies or what I was looking for. By the way, a person who is doing all this thing and who may be in volatile relationships may play a part but the other person plays a part too. So what I don't want us to do is take away from that and I agree with you, Chase. I think whether this happened or she perceived it to happen, she looks genuine and honest because she's illustrating with her body, this is big Lori. Lori's personality is up now and she's talking. She's got her hands up. She does this taste and he goes nuts. She does eye blocking. When she does that, Mark, it's when she's describing and repeating the questioner's words. She closes her eyes and she repeats her words, maybe to give her time to organize her thoughts, not sure. There can be lots of reasons this whole thing happens. Why volatility happens. We don't know anything about what's going on. We can't read their minds. But one of my favorite pieces of disapproval I've ever seen here is when she talks about her grown son, there's textbook, purse lips, closed eyes and chin jet about him hitting her grown son. That may or may not be the crux of a lot of what's going on. Who knows? There's a lot of train wreck here. Scott, what do you got? All right, now continuing from the last video where you watched to this one, she continues to presuade us but the interrogator and whoever's gonna be watching the videos of her interrogation and why she, this guy was killed and why it's not her fault and why he deserved to be killed. She got him Robert Cialdini and he wrote a book called a presuasion. I suggest you check it out because it's awesome. And he talks specifically about how you presuade someone before you try to sell them something or when you try to make them like you or accept you or in your job interview, those kinds of things. Fantastic book. It's called presuasion and that's what we're seeing here because she's adding bricks to the pile of here's why he deserved to die. This is almost pre-confession what she's doing here. She's telling us why she did it or why it was done if she did it. Has she already been, is she already in? This case is not going to trial yet. Okay, well then these are just my opinions. That's all it is, but I would assume that she's building this big pile of bricks over here with each time she says he did something. This is why he deserved to die pile. So, but don't forget about presuasion. Now, her body language is starting to close up even more here. We see all the hallmarks of someone who's shutting down. We're seeing slumped shoulders, the turtling wind we've been talking about, vocal fry, her legs are still crossed, fading facts. And when you start giving the answers, they start getting quieter as you go along because your confidence is dropping because you may not be under the impression that that's true, as that's out. And her illustrators are diminished as well. They're getting smaller. Every time she's presuading, they get real big. But when she's telling something she's not sure about that she should be telling since she hadn't had time yet to structure her story perfectly or talk to her brother about this in detail, she's watching what she says. That's why she gets quiet. That's why she's starting to shut down because the deeper this thing goes, we're gonna see the quieter and more shut down she becomes. Especially, and again, that part about, I got between him when he was gonna hit the daughter, hit the little girl. She said, I put myself between him. She's making herself the hero of this thing. Again, like you were talking about earlier, Greg, about being the victim, victimization of her as we're doing this. So this is all, she's presuading the whole, the outcome of this thing with here are the reasons that he's a bad guy. Here are the reasons that he was shot or should have been shot. That's my opinion, my opinion only. All right, are we good? Greg, I think you and I actually agree on that in that if she is using those pronouns as a blanket, part of our job in some parts of interrogation would be to help her build that blanket so we can rip it off. I agree with you, Chase, 100%. When they use those words, you use those words regardless of the reason and then you get to the reason. I agree with you, 100%. Yeah, we're on the same page. I just wanted to clarify that for people watching because I knew we agreed. Oh, yeah. I wanted to make that distinction that we are not doing that because we agree with her and we're doing it because we're helping her to build that. Yeah, that's a great clarification. I think that's important. Yep. I have to take care of her by herself. So when you say he goes nuts, that means that can mean a lot of different things. So goes nuts like yelling and screaming. Yeah, yelling and screaming. Bring the things, goes nuts like physical violence. He's never really, besides grabbing us or pushing us but not like punching us or something but he with tightly he has gotten physical before. And with my grown son. Like physical how? Like got into a physical fist fight with my son when he was 16. And he came after Tyley two times in Hawaii. Okay. And went like he was gonna hit her but then I got in between them, right? How old was she when that happened? Probably 14, 13 and 14. Okay. So this morning he comes back in and- He comes back in, I wasn't giving this phone. He was screaming at me, giving this phone. He was very worried about whatever was on his text that he did not want me to see. So I was just holding it there and he was screaming at me. And I was kind of walking towards around the house with it so he couldn't get it. He was like reaching for it and stuff like that. And so Tyley came out of her room upset and she had a bat and she told him to leave her mother alone like, right? So she was really, whatever. And he's screaming at her, don't you tit me with that bat, blah, blah, blah. And then my brother heard all the commotion because he was in there. So he came out into the main room and I guess whatever. What's your brother's name? Alex. Alex, okay. And then he just started, he was screaming and he was super upset and whatever. And he's yelling at Tyley, don't you tit me with that bat and blah, blah, blah. And so Tyley, I guess, I don't know if she swung at him or what, but he like grabbed the bat from Tyley and then went to like hit Tyley with the bat. And I was right there, they were right there and my brother grabbed him from behind like just to stop him from hitting Tyley. You go like this, like he grabbed him like. Yeah, from behind, like just kind of to pull him back. And then they got into the thing, he's hitting him with the bat and they're on the ground like grappling around or whatever. And then, I mean, it was all. And he quickly hit your brother with a bat while they were grappling and stuff? Yeah, I, yes, he was hitting him with the bat, like swinging the bat, you know, back and forth and they were kind of like on the ground and I was like freaking out, trying to go around. Knowing JJ was in the car, right? And so then he got up and he had the bat like this towards me and I was going around the other side to try to just get out of his range where he kind of hit me. And then I had told Tyley to, she was on the ground because after he took the bat from her, she fell back. And so I told her, I was like, go get her the car of JJ. Like, I don't want JJ coming in to the house and I want her out of the way. I wanted the kids out of the way, whatever this fight was going to be. And then. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, look, the description of the grappling that goes on, the fight that goes on, they were kind of like on the ground or whatever. Well, it's a little nondescript. I would like a little more description on that, but maybe that's the only moment where it's a little nondescript, but it isn't. Because, and I've minimized the amount of fillers and nondescript words here. So I've minimized it. They happen again and again and again multiple times. And there's some that I will have missed out as well. But we get, and stuff like that was really and whatever, like, right. So, and then and whatever, I guess or what it was, and then no clarification of what it was. Look, all of this, if you have seen some kind of violent act go on, I understand that you can be traumatized. I totally get that. I understand you can lose certain memories, but you're more likely to say, look, I just don't remember any of it. I'm so shocked by it. I do not remember what went on. This is utterly nondescript. And therefore I would suggest, I wouldn't lay a lot of money on her being very accurate about what went on here. Let's just say that I wouldn't go to the casino and put down, in fact, any money. I won't put down any money at this point that she's accurate about some of this. And I will start putting money on that she's gonna start to become even more deceptive and increase the deception. Of course, I could lose at the casino. I just don't think I'm going to lose on this one. Scott, what do you got? All right. She has his phone and she won't give it back. It's his fault. She's still coming on like this is this guy's fault. This is all pre-sweating us to believe that he's on started. She says that he chased her all over the house with it, trying to get the phone from her. He's chased her all over the house. Is it, come on, that's crazy. She's the problem here. If that actually happened, then she's a problem. If she was that freaked out by it, she would have dropped the phone and run or she would have left it there or not done that in the first place. But she's making him mad on purpose, going back to Greg's thought of the possibility of if this was set up, that that's where they're gonna do it. Get in there and trigger them real good, get them all worked up and then shoot them and say it was in self-defense. She's really locked down here. And her illustrators are minimal. They're not very big and they're really fast when they come out. So she's not sure still, she's not totally confident with what she's gonna say, but she's leaning into what she's saying. So that's why we're seeing that juxtaposition of being locked down, but a lot of things going on at the same time. She laughs talking about a situation that's really violent that involves her daughter. She laughs about that. Again, like psychopaths, like I was talking about earlier, if indeed she was one, the emotions don't fit the situation at all. Not even a little bit. She's seen something horrible, talking about somebody who's gonna hit her daughter with a baseball bat and she's laughing about it. That's not right. That's not right. That shouldn't be happening. And then when she talks about, he was grabbed from the back and he had the baseball bat and her brother grabbed him from the back, but he was hitting him with it. How's he gonna hit the guy with the baseball bat when he grabs him from behind? That's not gonna happen. You can't, I don't, Greg, is that possible? You're a big fighter. Yeah, you could hit somebody over the shoulder, sure. Yeah. If you grab me, okay. Easily. Back, yeah. Okay, maybe I'm wrong about that. Swing it around and catch him with it back end of it, even though it's kind of sick. Okay, all right. So after describing this big fight and all this about behavior, she smiles. And you know why she smiles? Because she likes that. That's really the only emotion that a psychopath can see or recognize is one of fear. So I'm sure she saw that and the little feelings that they can feel, if they can feel anything at all, because she likes seeing that. That's why she's smiling. I think throughout this, as she smiles when she talks about this horrible stuff, it's because she likes that. That actually brings the only feeling she may have is that excitement of something happening to give her an adrenaline rush. And so she sees that as pleasure. That's what she thinks is pleasure in her mind. Like when people jump out of planes all the time and don't wear a parachute. And they have somebody give it to them. You've seen those videos where those people jump out of planes with that parachute. I think something's wrong with those people. That knows motorcycle people who drive those real fast down those little roads. I don't know if you've seen those on Instagram or not. That's crazy. Those people probably have amygdala problems as well. Then she describes like juicy, smooth, yeah. She describes something that didn't happen. I don't think they're in there wrestling around like that. I don't think that was happening. I think they went in, got him kind of mad and said, okay, that's it. And then maybe the little girl came out with a bat and he ended up with a bat. But if you push some, if you get a bat away from somebody, I don't think they fall backwards. Wouldn't they, if you pulled it, wouldn't they come toward you? Who knows? Right? Who knows? No. Okay, so there's no, man, my thing's on the fighting stuff. You can tell off when I'm out fighting. You don't get it. So if you got a baseball bat, you probably gonna win if it comes to me. So I'll leave it there. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, so right away, the interviewer makes a leading statement. He comes back in. So she does two things here, probably unintentionally. She lets Lori continue the sentence by letting her voice drift off. Second, she gets Lori into present tense by having her repeat a present tense statement to continue her story. She says, Tyler came out of a room upset and she had a baseball bat. Not she came out of a room holding a baseball bat or with a baseball bat, which is more fluent and more normal. Another negative GHT pointing to that negative side again of her body where she references negative things. And then she says she was really whatever. Every time I'm hearing this, I'm seeing a pattern developing here. She's assuming the whatever here and using blah, blah, blah as just fillers to suggest that there was so much more going on. I just don't have time to get into the details yet. I don't think this happened at all. And she also used this negative reference to refer to her brother, which might be different, but I doubt it. I only say it might be different because she uses her body a lot to illustrate stories. And if this did happen, maybe her brother was on her right side. So something is off in her description of the incident, the language, the actions she's using, filler words. She's also just waving them away with her hands. And just like this, like it's not a big deal. And this is different than any time she's moved for anything else for this one part of the story. And these pieces of data are likely false. I think they're all false. Greg? Yeah, so I always say when people speak, listen. Listen to what they say, listen to how they say it. There's a key word in here. She says text. Go back and listen to that, how long that word is compared to every other word in the sentence. And what you'll hear is something is up. Something is tied to whatever text was on that phone probably cause some kind of generation of some problem because it's over exaggerated. The vowel is longer than any place else in the sentences we're hearing. My first note up here is how old are these people? You're playing keep away with a divorced or separated person's phone. Well, that's private property, first of all. Something's up here. This is not new for a person when they can talk about this casually. This kind of playing keep away with a person's phone is probably something that's going on in their life. When we talk about relationships, all relationships are about entitlements and expectations. People don't often state those in a relationship upfront. Hey, I expect you to behave like an adult. And if you've never argued with irrational people, you have no idea what this is like. This is irrational. When a person's got your phone running around the counter and they're 46 years old, the hell's going on in that relationship, first off. And it's somebody you're split from. So there's all kinds of crazy probably going on in this house that we don't get. I'll just start with that. There's a lot of adapting when she's talking about her keeping his phone. She starts fidgeting like all hell. And the questioner does a great job, another really good kudo for this questioner. I could have sat across and said, what the hell's wrong with you? You're a grown woman. This is his phone. Hand it back to him. And she would have lost him. What she's doing is if you're going to use read method to go after him, you want to build up this whole disparaging the victim. You want to build up this whole undermining the victim and she's letting her do it. I expected this to go somewhere else and I think she does by the end. But you see that she's been illustrating up to now pretty big and that's kind of slowed down. When she says she had a bat talking about Tylee, upload, she had a bat. She makes hard eye contact and raises her forehead. No illustrators whatsoever. Wait a minute. You're really demonstrative with these illustrators. What about a bat? Why did that not come up? And so Chase, I start to be with you. Did this really happen? This would be a great chance for her to do that. I would start asking questions about why she didn't do that. And then she hits whatever right at the end of that bat, or whatever, and then she laughs. She laughs about this most horrific thing you've all brought up and then her illustrators come back up because she's avoided that whatever that she was going to bring up and she's now moved on. So the nervous laugh is a release. You'll see people often do it when they get to a point and then she guesses, says whatever again and then the questioner interjects a well-timed question. Another great job by asking her brother's name to get her from going down whatever path which she was doing. Have you ever seen a movie called American Graffiti? It's an American classic. Candy Clark plays this woman in there who is a dits. This woman is a characterization of Candy Clark in American Graffiti. This rambling pieces of sentences that go nowhere. Then she goes back, look, I'll just stop there. He was hitting him or swinging or what was he doing exactly? She just goes on and on. She reminds me of that Candy Clark character talking about the goat canal killer. Anybody who's a fan of that movie will know exactly what I'm talking about. He's just random, random, random. I'd be all over this. I think Greg, the reason that she said text for so long because it wasn't about the text. I don't think she was texting. I think she just grabbed his phone if she did because like I was saying earlier, I don't think it's just a juicy smoothie. I don't think it happened like that at all. I think like you surmised at the beginning that it's made up and she's just to get him triggered and get him all fired up. You guys know, I don't conjecture much. I was saying if it happened, how could it happen? Is how that conversation started? Because I don't usually say, hey, here's what I think happened in these things because I don't, there's way too much. There'll be evidence. These guys will have all the forensics and all that kind of thing. And they'll know whether the guy was shot from behind. What kind of, there are all kinds of pieces that will come up in that trial that will be interesting for us to see. But yeah, I think she gives us enough here to just say, what the hell? So when does that trial start? I know they chose jurors. No, no, that trial, the trial for the death of Tylee and JJ is right now. It's ongoing right now. They've seated the jurors. This trial will not come up until after she's finished with the trial we're talking about now, which they expect to see in 10 weeks. Yep. Okay, cool. Yeah, I wouldn't dispute. So this morning he comes back in and... He comes back in, I haven't given this phone. He was screaming at me, giving this phone. He was very worried about whatever was on his text that he did not want me to see. So I was just holding it there and he was screaming at me and I was kind of walking towards around the house with it so he couldn't get it. He was reaching for it and stuff like that. And so Tylee came out of her room upset and she had a bat and she told him to leave her mother alone, right? So she was really, whatever, and he's screaming at her, don't you tit me with that bat, blah, blah, blah. And then my brother heard all the commotion because he was in there. So he came out into the main room and I guess whatever. What's your brother's name? Alex. Alex, okay. And then he just started, he was screaming and he was super upset and whatever and he's yelling at Tylee, don't you tit me with that bat, blah, blah, blah. And so Tylee, I guess, I don't know if she swung at him or what, but he like grabbed the bat from Tylee and then went to like hit Tylee with the bat. And I was right there, they were right there and my brother grabbed him from behind, like just to stop him from hitting Tylee. You go like this, like he grabbed him like, yeah, from behind, like just kind of to pull him back. And then they got into the thing, he's hitting him with the bat and they're on the ground, like grappling around or whatever. And then, I mean, it was all quickly, and he hit your brother with a bat while they were grappling and stuff. Yeah, I, yes, he was hitting him with the bat, like swinging the bat, you know, back and forth and they were kind of like on the ground and I was like freaking out, trying to go around. Knowing JJ was in the car, right? And so then he got up and he had the bat like this towards me and I was going around the other side to try to just get out of his range where he kind of hit me. And then I had told Tylee to, she was on the ground because after he took the bat from her, she fell back. And so I told her, I was like, go get in the car with JJ. Like, I don't want JJ coming in to the house or, and I want her out of the way. I wanted the kids out of the way, whatever this fight was going to be. And then, Do you remember what your husband or your brother were saying or yelling during all of this? If they were at all? Just kind of get off me out or whatever. You know, whatever they were like, like, don't talk to me. He's not like, whatever. I don't remember specifics, but they were kind of both, they were kind of in the heat of it. I don't think there was much, many words that I remember. So Tylee goes outside. Yeah, she was outside. And then what happened? Then he, they got up from that and my brother had like stepped back, I guess. And then Charles was coming with me at the bat and yelling at me to give him his phone still because I had it in my hand. So it was all really quickly. And then when I went around kind of in the circle then my brother was there. When you said he, when you were going around and he was coming at you with the bat, how was he holding the bat? Just like that, like backwards. Almost and whatnot. Like he was swinging, but like, swinging it backwards? He would have got like. Like he would have swing it backwards at me, not backwards. Okay. He was a professional baseball player. Okay. So it wasn't a good idea for Charles to get out of the house. Probably not the problem. He's like, it's in my hands, yeah. But. All right, Chase, what do you got? Her level of eye contact here is stunning while she's laughing about the situation. And I think she's probably been using this charm to get things her whole life. Here's why that should be scary to you. We know that adult behavior is shaped by what made the person get what they wanted earlier in life and what behaviors they needed to avoid punishment or consequences as a kid. And she's smiling here because she's used this in the past. But she's also, she's unaware that it's an inappropriate emotion to display. So what kind of person would spend a long time mastering facial expressions and making people like them and also be completely unaware which emotions are socially appropriate? I'll let you be the judge. All the behavior you're seeing here might seem off. This is because you're seeing the signals of uncertainty, doubt, hesitation, and inward focus. Those four things are the things that we're seeing that might make you feel a little bit off. Uncertainty, doubt, hesitation, and inwardly focused. Internal dialogue, so to speak. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, let's run down just a couple of things. And I'm gonna pitch this one off the mark pretty quickly. But this woman sitting there, let's look at the teddy bear next to her and look at her now and look at how collapsed she's become. She's shrinking even more. She looks like the puppet next to her. Her arms are about to touch the floor and somebody I know is gonna talk about the grotesque plane. I have a feeling as soon as we have this finished up, her animation is gone. She's not talking. And I agree with you, Chase. She's like, oh, what do I say now and where do I go? She's adapting to release nervous energy, even reaches up to an uncomfortable position to scratch. There's internal voice as she describes and she's now changed planes. And what I mean by changing planes and people are going up here and remembering things. Now she goes down to internal voice and emotion and internal voice and emotion. We as interrogators know that she's headed into a place that we can push her a little further and especially using all this disparaging the victim to get her to break, to get her to confess. Her voice tone is different. Her cadence is different. Her blink rate increases, even with that hard eye contact. When she does that trying to understand the question, she opens her mouth. I see that, you know, I live in a part of the country where we make fun of people who hang in their mouth open when they're paying attention to something very tightly called mouth breathing. I think she's doing a little bit of that as her circuits are heating up pretty hard. Mark, is this grotesque plane? Or is it just? This is very definitely grotesque plane. I also think she's got very long limbs as well. Her fingers are incredibly long as well. So she is long-limbed, I would say. But having said that, I rarely see anybody manage to get their hands so low as they're talking that she's actually pulling up on the cushion and adapting on the cushion. Now what does it mean to be in the grotesque plane? Well, certainly it means that gravity is getting way the better of her. She isn't winning that fight against gravity. It's bringing her shoulders right in. She's concave here. She's minimising. I mean, it's almost like some kind of chimp there, you know? So she's almost dragging her knuckles on the ground. One last thing on this. She says, you know, what were they yelling? Well, just kind of get off me. And then we see some asymmetry in the mouth, i.e. one side of the mouth does something different than the other side of the mouth. And we see a slight pull-up in the mouth. Now, that could be disdain or contempt. But I don't know why it would be disdain and contempt. What is she disdaining or contemptuous of based on the text of it? So in asymmetry of the mouth, we're left with one other opportunity, really, which is, is it Jupa's delight? With her, quite possibly is. Quite possibly she is enjoying the idea of making up a story here. So look, never seen this adaption on a cushion down this low, and she really has shrunk and heading further, further towards the ground losing that fight against gravity. So even with somebody who may well be psychopathic in nature, it doesn't mean that they don't have stresses on them. It doesn't mean that if they're put in a corner, they won't shrink and they won't have elements of fear themselves. And I think that's what we're seeing here. Somebody who doesn't feel much fear and loves to have a great deal of control, but this is one of those moments even for her where she's caught in a corner. Scott, what you got on this one? I agree, she's caught in the corner. That's what's happening there. At the beginning, she's talking about how they're yelling and she's had all these, oh, they're saying this and that. But the time she gets finished talking about it, she doesn't remember what they said. She did really connect with what they said as she explains to the interrogator, who's still doing a great job during this. And then again, like everybody's brought up so far, let's look at her posture. Man, she's so low, her hands are below that seat. You don't see that very often. When someone's sitting there, I think it might be the first time I've seen it on any of the things we've done on this channel. The first time we've seen that. So that's really interesting. Again, we're hearing fading facts, more vocal fry and way too much laughing when she shouldn't be laughing. Her emotions are not fitting with the situation that's happening there. Well, it's interesting. I thought, and I figured for sure when you guys would find this, her ego was hit on here. Did anybody see where that was? Where something hit her ego? No? Okay, when she talks about him being semi pro, I think that bothered her. I think that embarrassed her because she grabs her arm and that's the first big adapter we see on her. That's the biggest one we've seen so far. And I think when she says, he was semi pro, she wanted him to be a pro. And I think that embarrassed her when she said that. Now, that's going way out there, but I think they're so sensitive. The psychopaths are so sensitive, they're so narcissistic that that's something that didn't make her look as good as she could possibly look and I think it bothered her. Now, keep in mind that when it comes to narcissism in psychopaths, a lot of people ask this question. All psychopaths are narcissists, but not all narcissists are psychopaths. So be sure you keep that in mind. They can get real close to it and they'll seem just like them. That's why you can't, that's why I can't diagnose for sure this is a psychopath, but my goodness, she sure looks like one. Sometimes it takes six months to a year to be able to really find out if someone is or not without all the MRI work on the head. But that's one thing to keep in mind. So that's what I thought. I thought that it sort of hit her ego there when she had to say it was semi-pro and that's why we're seeing that adapter on her hand there on her forearm there. All right. We good? Yep. All right, Mark. You had no competition in that whatsoever. Chase did a lean out towards the trophy cabinet of the back. Trying to find a charger. The eye witness is you. Do you remember what your husband or your brother were saying or yelling during all of this? If they were at all? Just kind of get off me. I don't know. You know, whatever. They were like, like, don't talk to my ears about this. Whatever, like, I don't remember specifics, but they were kind of both, they were kind of in the heat of it. I don't think there was much, many words. I don't remember. So Tyree goes outside. Yeah, she was outside. And then what happened? Then he, they got up from that and my brother had like stepped back, I guess, and then Charles was coming with me at the bat and yelling at me to give him his phone still because I had it in my hand. It was all really quickly. And then when I went around kind of in the circle then my brother was there. When you said he, when you were going around and he was coming at you with the bat, how was he holding the bat? Just like that, like backwards. Almost and whatnot. Like he was swinging, but like, swinging it backwards? He would have done like. Like he would have swing it backwards at me, not frontwards. Okay, yeah. He was a professional baseball player. Okay. So it wasn't a good idea for Tyree to get out of the house. Probably not the, he's like, it's in my brother's hands, yeah. But, yeah, and then I was kind of turned around and we were all right there in that room except where the kids had been outside by that time and I heard the gunshot in. So you heard the shot? Mm-hmm. Dude, did you actually see, see the shot or did you just hear it? I had gone around to the kitchen to get away from him and so back around, so I don't know if you went in the house. I didn't, so I'm a little bit of a disadvantage. Yeah, so I didn't see when, I didn't see the shot, I heard it and then I came back around and I saw that he was on the ground and it was freaking out. And so I was just freaking out and I just went into mama and I'm like, I've got to go to Chichi's school but I get to the kids. And so I just went outside and to see if they were in there, okay, I didn't want them coming back in the house when all that was going on. And it's got Chichi in the car and he was trying to come in and Tyler was like looking at me with like the crazy eyes, like what just happened and I told her to get in the car and we're gonna take Chichi to school and I just left. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so did you hear the shot or did you see the shot or some question along those lines? And there is a pause after that that I believe is way out of the baseline. I mean, it's not a great long pause in the grand scheme of pauses that you've ever heard in your life but notice how rapidly before she was delivering information and right now she takes a long time before she then gives really quite a convoluted answer there of why she would be there but not quite there to see the shot. This is clearly important. It's clearly important that she helps people understand that she maybe didn't see anything but only hear anything. She's not fully in that location. In fact, she wants distancing from the whole thing. She says, all that was going on. Well, all that, what I can see was all that is somebody has definitely fired a weapon and there's somebody on the ground. So let me just assume somebody's been shot and in her mind, that's all that. So that's clearly distancing. She wants not to be attached to what's gone on here. And then in fact, she says, look, I then wanted to get the kids to school. I just left. She's already said that's her mom mode. So she's giving a, saying it's reasonable when somebody's shot and somebody's on the ground or if the gun goes off, there's somebody on the ground that you'd wanna get the kids to school because you're in mom mode. You don't want them in that house. No, I get that, but you don't have to get them to school. I mean, just away is good. So I'm very concerned about this story. It doesn't make a great deal of sense. It looks like she's trying to distance herself from everything as carefully and as quickly and as boldly as she can. Greg, what'd you go on this one? Yeah, this is a really good one because she's adapting and burying. She's closing up and then fidgeting. And what I always mean by that is when a person's burying, they're making space for themselves. That's innate, that's human nature. We put things between us. Often women will cross your abdomen or primary sex organs in high stress. And then they'll start, not surround, play with their fingernails or hair or something or fidget with their fingers and rub on their arms. It's a way to release nervous energy and make yourself comfortable because you're creating a known environment behind that barrier. She also has a cadence change again, back to the one about the bat. Remember the bat? She said the bat and she does it here when she talks about the gunshot. There's a little top. Her brow goes up, heart eye contact. So she's asking for approval. That's twice, twice around a bat and around the gunshot. That's interesting. Does it mean anything? Maybe because it's different from everything else. Did you see or hear? She avoids the question for 15 solid seconds. I counted it, 15 seconds. She avoids the question by talking about, and I walked around this way and walked around that way. Have you been in the house? Well, that is chaff and redirect. She's working hard to get her off the topic. Now there's a second uncomfortable laughter, really big laughter compared to most of what we've seen. We've seen smiles and awkward, but this is a laughter. And then Mark, I'm with you. Oh my God, this guy's lethal injured. Well, the kids need to go to school. No 911 call, no police. Nothing, let's just go, let's just go. Look at her hands now, look at where they're at. And then at the very end, when she says, I just left, there's another laugh, that laugh is powerful. And there's a half smile of contempt or derision. That has to be about somebody. Is it about her brother? Is it about her children? Probably about the guy laying in a puddle on the floor would be my guess, but Chase, where you got? Yeah, let's talk about a couple of phrases she says here verbatim. The first one is except where the kids had been outside by that time. That's word for word. Absolute loss of fluency, hesitancy, unusual body narration. Second statement, she says, when I heard the gunshot in, and that's it, in, that's it. So this, and then this is also loss of fluency, hesitancy, all that, but right here, we have staccato gesturing, which is like this little weird kind of staccato method of gesture. And you'll see that here and you won't see it anywhere else pretty much because this is out of her baseline. When she gets the question, did you see the shot? This is not a question that you have to think about or process or mull over or consider, but she definitely does, or maybe all of those things. So this is a non-answer statement. There's a loss of fluency, a shift to past perfect language. And I would say this is likely 100% deception, very likely. The loss of fluency is apparent now, probably to everyone watching, but there's one thing her body does here after she's describing this, hearing the shot, her arms flop and fall down onto the chair. I've seen a lot of people do this. I can't perfectly explain what it means, but I think it's an unconscious attempt to look relaxed and stressed out at the same time. But she sees a murder and thinks, I've got to get JJ to school. You guys mentioned this, but this alone I think should tell you all you need to know. If you look more closely at this, you'll see a person who is not able to lie about a situation in a way that a normal human would. She's unable to fabricate what an appropriate emotional response would be to this event. So she assumes that this is what most people would be thinking in this situation. So she's offering up this reaction to show you how she responded. So what is missing here? I always ask this question when I'm watching these videos, what's missing? What's missing here that 100% of people would have described having just witnessed a murder? And I'll leave the answer to that question up to you and put it in the comments. That's all I got, Scott. You're right. I don't think she was in there. She wasn't in there. When a gunshot goes off in a room, you remember it and there's no pause. Did you hear or see it? Did you see the gun? Because when a gun comes out, everybody looks at the gun, everybody. And your eyes don't leave that gun. You want to make sure it's not pointing at you. And when it goes off, you never forget how loud that is. Because when it goes off, you hear a whistling right after that. And especially if you're in the same room, it gets loud. And I promise you, everybody's looking at that point, who shot who? Even though you know that person who's got the gun, you still look at him and you still look at that gun. That's where the danger is. Your brain makes you do that. You can't help it. Now, so that's the reason she waits for that long pause because she hasn't talked to her brother about this yet. I think, and I know, Greg, you hate it or you don't do this, I think she left. And that's when he did it. And he called her when it was over. That's what I think happened. That's why it got so weird right there. And I'm jaded, so probably. But that's the road I go down because that's what I would start asking her questions about at that point. So I think they went in there and she got them all worked up. She left, she hits the road and this guy tags him. That would be my assumption at this point. If I was talking to her, that'd be the road I went down right there. And then as she's talked, let's see, I've covered all that. Let's see. Oh, then she says, she took the kids away from the scene because she knows it's a crime scene. It's a murder scene. Have you ever heard somebody say, hey, you know, we're going out to McDonald's. We left the scene and unless it's in the 60s or something and people talk about the scene, but it's not the 60s. And she talks about leaving a crime scene. That's what she said. So I think that's where she messed up as well. That's the reason I, yeah. That's video seven. Oh, is it? Okay. Sorry. Oh, I'm glad you told me that. I've got it on 16 years. We all have those same notes, I'm sure. Oh, okay. Well, anyway, we didn't watch the whole video this time, you guys, that's why I'm talking about that. So I'll save that part and I'll try not to go over it in our next set of videos. In our next video. Thanks for telling me that I didn't just waste my whole thing there. I've got six B's on Mark Darrow. I've got a good one on the scene thing. Yeah, me too. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I wouldn't dispute. Yeah, and then I was kind of turned around and we were all right in that room except where the kids had been outside by that time and I heard the gunshot in. So you heard the shot? Mm-hmm. Dude, did you actually see the shot or did you just hear it? I had gone around to the kitchen to get away from him and so back around. So I don't know if you went in the house. I didn't. So I'm a little bit of a disadvantage. Yeah. So I didn't see when, I didn't see the shot. I heard it and then I came back around and I saw that he was on the ground. Okay. And it was freaking out. And so I was just freaking out and I just went into mama and I'm like, I've got to go to the kitchen to just go back and get to the kids. I just went like, I've got to get to the kids. And so I just went outside and to see if they were in there, okay. I didn't want them coming back in the house when all that was going on. And it's got JJ in the car and he was trying to come in and Tyler was like looking at me with like the crazy eyes like what just happened. And I told her to get in the car and run and take JJ's school and I just left. Came back in and you saw him on the ground. Where was your brother? Did you see him? Where he was at? Yeah, he was right in front of him. Okay. Like it all happened very quickly. That was, I mean, I was, I feel like I was there because I was right there a second later. I just went around the kitchen to get away from him. Did your brother say anything to you at all? Do you remember? No, we were both just in shock. Okay. Like it was just a, I mean, I didn't think I went out with the kids just to check on them first and I was going to come back in maybe, but I didn't. I was like, I just have to get him to school and call the police and come back, you know. Whatever. Did anybody say, did you or your brother say anything at some point about calling the police or calling 911? Do you remember? Yeah, he called me. Okay. And he said, are you taking Gigi to school? And I said, yeah, we need to call the police. And he said, okay. Okay. So he called you when you didn't come back inside, basically? Right, because I was like in the car for a minute and then I was like, what do I do? And then, you know, I didn't want Gigi to go inside and I didn't know what to do and Tyler was freaking out and I was trying to get them away from the scene. See if I keep my cards straight this time. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is an interesting one and we'll talk about the scene. Each of us will talk about it a little bit differently. Let me just give you the simplest version of being an interrogator and somebody uses the word the scene. There's options. Do I jump in and wait, hold on a minute. What does the scene mean to you? Or do I leave it until later to constrict the person? And I use that word later. But either way, I would call that a push pull word. I use them all the time. When I hear something, I may opt to throw a hurdle in front of the person so they have to work damn hard to get over it and cause them to stumble. Or I may use it later in much a Colombo method where I start to constrict around them and tighten it, tighten the news. So here's the most interesting of all these things. There are three or four pieces to this one. They're great. Scene is one. Where was your brother? Yeah, he was right in front of him. Yeah, now there's no 15 second ramble now. Now you had to walk back around there. Now this is just contradicted what she said two minutes ago. There's block number two. So we can start using that. The answer is so much shorter. And now she was there. Is this an incremental admission of involvement? We're really good at that. We like slippery slopes. So once we start and you start saying that, now the disparage of the victim, look, I got it. I get it. He was trying to hurt everybody. You had to rush to protect. Now you start to minimize. Now this starts to affect. In intelligence interrogation, we're not trying to get a confession. We use love of hate of that kind of thing. We'd say, you know, you're justified in doing it. He did something wrong. And we're not after getting a confession. We're after finding out facts. But listen to the change in the baseline. When she does, I just got to get the kids to school. I didn't want to call the police. And she's in grotesque when she's doing that. When a person is lilting up, I expect, Martin, they're in passion or truth. They're up here. They're negating the effects of gravity. She isn't. And then just that piece to say scene, how do you reconcile that with an ordinary speech? I haven't heard that word anywhere else. Chase, what do you got? I agree with you. Wholeheartedly agree. And right at this moment, did your brother say anything to you at all? This moment of absolute silence is her careful consideration of A, the brother's story. They haven't maybe made up something together. But it's a careful consideration of what normal people would do in this situation. She's processing what might happen if one of her friends had experienced the story. And I'm willing to bet that she's heard this line about being in shock from a friend or from television before, and that's stuck with her. And what's being asked, when she's being asked about calling 911, take a look at her hands. They go into what's called palm exposure. So they're exposing the palms. This is what we see innocent people do. And she's unconsciously replicating this behavior. Her brain's processor speed is then going up so fast to keep up with the story and this question that her brain is doing what all brains do. It's conserving energy to conserve processing power of the brain. It freezes the body so that there's more resources to use for the story. You'll see this when somebody suddenly has some really great deep thought and they have to think about it. They'll stop, their body will stop so they can process everything. And they'll be still for a moment. And it's usually a sudden stillness, which is what we're seeing here too. So the hands get stuck in this position while the interviewer continues to ask a couple of questions. And one final point. I think she's potentially, we all maybe have different takes on this. I think she's using the word seen because she's heard it in police shows by people who are dispassionate about the crime scene, but she doesn't know they're dispassionate. She thinks this is the normal way that people talk about where a killing has taken place. It's just a scene. So she just calls it a scene because it's not an important emotional thing for her. Scott, what do you got? Yeah, okay. I'll agree with that. That goes along with it. Plus it goes along with mine. What she's talking about, this is crazy talk. This doesn't sound normal on, no matter what planet you're on, it doesn't sound right. She wasn't in shock and thinking, we're gonna get the kids to school. She was thinking, okay, now what? If she was there, I don't think she was there during that. That's again, going back to my thing earlier, that's why she has no what to say. There's why is that that long pause. She hadn't talked to her brother yet. They don't have their story together yet. That's why you separate them to make sure they don't talk and get their story happening together. So I don't think she was in there. And then when she says, did you see the shot? She just deflects. I think she just, she goes off into the last video, goes off into day nowhere, talking about other stuff. That just makes no sense whatsoever. This whole thing right here, it's really confusing because she doesn't know what to say. And we're trying to piece this together and say, why does this make sense? Why doesn't this make sense? It doesn't make sense to us because it doesn't make sense to her. She hasn't had time to get her story worked out. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so we were both in shock and the gestures that she's doing there are what I would call contra-gesture. She's doing the contrary to exactly what you should do and would do in a state of shock. Now, what would you do in a state of shock? I can allow you to find out. It's gonna be a little bit weird, but after this show, take all your clothes off and get in a cold shower. Let it run icy cold, okay? Okay, and just walk into that cold shower. And I want you to notice what happens to your muscle tension. What you'll notice is your muscles tighten up and you can't stop it because your brainstem is doing that. You cannot counter-measure that. Well, you can, but if I surprised you with the cold shower, you wouldn't be able to counter-measure it. So your muscles are gonna tense up and also your hands are gonna come up and your elbows are gonna come in to protect your delicate organs and also to keep you warm. That is shock. So you've got tension in your muscles and you're coming up to what I would call the passion plane up here. So we might come up even closer up into closure or disclosure here as it's hitting your face. Now, what's she doing? Her muscle tension is in no tension at all. Zero tension. That's why her hands are hanging flaccidly down and her gestures are not in passion. They're in the grotesque plane. So no tension, almost like a newly collapsed body in the arms and gravity taking hold of that. It's the exact, it's what you do if you were like super relaxed. It's exactly what you do if you were sitting on a beach with some kind of pina colada and you couldn't even be bothered to pick up the drink because maybe you've got somebody who's gonna do it for you. That's the kind of tension state and gesture plane that she's in and she's talking about we were both in shock. It's contra-gesture. You rarely see that. You rarely, rarely see that. There it is for you. Beautiful moment. But we got something even more extraordinary coming up. So stick with us there. That's all I've got on that one. You guys, those of us who've been around where people have been shot. Do you remember what that was like? Sight, smell, all that kind of stuff. You remember what it was like? You never forget that. Now imagine you're a person in your own kitchen and somebody's killed. I have no idea where they got shot. Let's assume it's the head. That's a hell of a lot of blood, a hell of a lot of blood. If it's not the head, then it's a slower, much more impactful death. I expect to see things like, and I'm not projecting onto her, every person's different, but most people are gonna show signs of disgust from the smells and the sights and the sounds of pain of something, of some emotion. None of that, none of that. Scott, that may support your theory. Yeah. And how loud it was. They always talk about how loud it was. Have you ever shot a gun in the house, in a building? You never forget it. You know what, Greg? Even if you had very little empathy, you would be upset at the mess. Yeah, exactly. Just the general like, disgusted. Like wallpaper. Like, that was expensive. You know? The second man. Right. Yeah, I wouldn't see you. Came back in and you saw him on the ground. Where was your brother? Did you see him, where he was at? Yeah, he was right in front of him. Okay. Like, it all happened very quickly. That was, I mean, I was, I feel like I was there, because I was right there a second later. Like, I just went around the kitchen to get away from him. Did your brother say anything to you at all? Do you remember? No, we were both just in shock. Like, it was just a, I mean, I didn't think I went out with the kids just to check on them first and I was gonna come back in and maybe, but I didn't. I was like, I just have to get him to school and call the police and come back. You know, whatever. Did anybody say, did your brother say anything at some point about calling the police or calling 911? Do you remember? Yeah, he called me. Okay. And he said, are you taking Gigi to school? And I said, yeah, we need to call the police. And he said, okay. Okay. So he called you when you didn't come back inside, basically? Right, because I was like in the car for a minute and then I was like, what do I do? And then, you know, I didn't, on Gigi, go inside and I didn't. Okay. I didn't know what to do and Tyler was freaking out. Yeah. I was trying to get them away from the scene. Away from the scene. Understandable. Do you, I don't, and you may not know this so, because I know you heard the shot. Do you know at what point your brother had the gun? Do you know if he had it when they got in their first fight or did he have to go get it? Or do you know that at all? I don't know. Okay. I don't know. And do you remember if you ever heard your brother? I didn't see him ever leave the room. Okay. So, it was so fast. All that was so fast. I was on the ground, rolling around and I'm screaming and this probably happened in a couple seconds. Yeah. I mean, it was like super fast. I don't know if you know this or not. Does your brother normally carry a gun? Like I carry a gun everywhere I go. Right. Like I know he's a gun person. Like he has guns and things. Okay. He's got guns. Did you know that he had one with him? No. When he came over? No, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did. Okay. Because he's very, very professional with guns. Proficient, professional. Responsible is usually a good thing. Right. Responsible. And then do you remember? All right, Greg, what do you got? You know, the only thing I would like to see different here is for to hold her arms out like this, kind of like the teddy bear so we could compare them more effectively. But her arms are down like the teddy bear. It makes me kind of giggle when I look at it. So it's kind of funny. She's adapting now. She's even scratching down lower on her leg. When she asked one of the questions, the person stops, and you can tell that she's starting to go to internal now. And what I mean by internal, when we get a person to confess typically, what we get them to do is to go behind their face and start working. Our job is not complete until they get in there and start working. And then we let them work and they bring back the answer to us. Good interrogation is about getting the person into internal voice and internal conflicts. So they have to figure it out. The only way for me to get out of this is X. That's futility and that works wonders. This questioner almost got it. I mean, she got her to a point where she asked her a question and then she kept talking. She should have said, been very quiet and let her talk. But that's okay because Valo's brain is working like we expect behind the face now. And she continues to give her even more details even after she interrupts her with a question. See that self soothing as she's in internal voice. And we say, when you're looking down to your left you're an internal voice. She's trying to figure out what to say. She turtles, meaning she shrinks in her body. She adapts and barriers against. She's rubbing and she eye blocks when she's talking about her brother and the guns. Why? That's new. That's new. Her brother and the guns, did he have a gun? Did he go get a gun? Oh, he's a gun person. This is back to like his phone. This is back to the key elements. If I were looking for key elements of the story right now I'd say phone, bat, gunshot, brother had guns. Those are four places. There's some major deviations. And if I were building a case, those would be part of my case. Scott, what do you got? Yeah, and I would add all this stuff about her not being, in my theory, about her not being there. Cause it's just too, it just doesn't add up man. I don't think she was in there. Now, we'll go past all that and talk about the gun. When you're talking about guns being a responsible gun person, that's not funny. When we talk about guns, we don't go, yeah, you gotta be, no, because it's serious business. There's no joking around when it comes to guns. You can talk about how good somebody is when they're at the range or something like that and you mess with somebody about that. But when it comes to being responsible with a weapon, that's not funny, not even a little bit. You have to be very serious about all that. And when that interrogator corrects her and she says being responsible, not professional, all that, she doesn't like that. That brushes up against her ego. That's how sensitive that this, if she was a psychopath, is because she doesn't like that. So that's when we see her, she starts tightening up again. She doesn't like that at all, not even a little bit. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I think there's something more on these guns. Guns and things. So I would like to know what the things are because maybe the things aren't other things. Maybe that's a mindset. It's possible that the guns and things is she alluding to a way that he might use weapons, that he might be more violent if he's done the shooting, that the things are more than just, he's got guns and holsters and bullets to put in there, but there's a way, a way about him. And then she goes on to say maybe proficient, but then maybe turns into professional. Again, both which are unusual words maybe to use around that because as the interviewer says, well, maybe you're thinking about responsible. The interviewer kind of helps out a little bit on there. And then she closes up around that. The hands close up, the arms close up, one hand goes underneath. She's more concave in her body and she eye blocks. I wonder whether the brother has been outed a little bit here. Maybe the brother is heavily into guns or if not heavily into guns is violent in nature. I mean, if he shot the guy then and relatively unprovoked, probably is violent in nature. Look, I don't know. I just think it's quite interesting that we get a big baseline change there around professional, proficient and responsible. Now, as you say, Scott, the baseline change might be about her being narcissism being triggered there and corrected around something. Although it's quite big, I wonder whether the story is collapsing a little bit there. Chase, what have you got on this one? You all hit a bunch of stuff that I had here, but aside from this, this is a wonderful combination of self soothing and shutter speed. Self soothing is to calm herself down. You'll see it on her leg. And the shutter speed is what you're seeing here when her brain's trying to process how she's going to answer this question as the question's being asked and you can see it. It's rare, given everything that you guys have talked about, it's really rare. I'll go all in on something being deceptive. This is one of the closest I've ever seen to me going all in. This is like 100%. The next thing you're seeing in this clip is discomfort with unknown information. This is a big deal. Guilty people are usually thinking that if they can't come up with information when asked, then they're gonna be caught. As a result, they're gonna try to over deliver on the unknown information or the information that they're pretending not to know. In their subconscious, this is how they can appear helpful and informative to the interviewer. I'm gonna just try to give you all kinds of stuff. Innocent people will just say, I have no idea. That's all I got. Right. The island is huge. Away from the scene. Understandable. Do you, I don't, and you may not know this, so, because I know you heard the shot. Do you know at what point your brother had the gun? Do you know if he had it when they got in their first fight or did he have to go get it? Or do you know that at all? I don't know. Okay. I don't know. And do you remember if you ever heard your brother? I didn't see him ever leave the room. Okay. So, it was so fast. All that was so fast. And on the ground, rolling around, and I'm screaming, and this probably happened in a couple seconds. Yeah. I mean, it was like super fast. And I don't know if you know this or not. Does your brother normally carry a gun? Like, I carry a gun everywhere I go. Right. Like, I know he's a gun person. Like, he has guns and things. Okay. He's got guns. Did you know that he had one with him? No. When he came over? No, but I'm gonna be surprised if he did. He's very, very professional with guns. Proficient, professional. Responsibles, usually a good guy, but I'm responsible with guns. And then, do you remember if at any time, so you were trying to get away from him and you heard the shot. Prior to the shot, do you remember at any point hearing your husband or your brother saying anything to either of them? So my second very ridiculous question is, is there anything else that I didn't ask about or anything that we didn't cover that you think is important? I always ask that just because I wasn't there. So we're going through something that happened a super small amount of time. Yes. So yeah, go for it. Just thinking, just that he was just so angry, like super scary. Did you have to take your phone away from like a 16-year-old and then freak out? Like, their world disintegrates. Like I've taken my phone away from a 16-year-old boy before and he like, he's like wanted to kill itself because like, that's how it was. It was like, it's something on his phone that he does not want me to see that he was like, for reaching out. Like, to the point where I thought he would hit me in the back of the head to get the phone. Okay. So you thought it was... All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, we're back to small Lori again. She has a threat identified, her eyes are locked and we call that romance or true crime workshop, but it's simply paying all attention so you make sure you don't lose any opportunity to convince the person. She adapts the leg bump at specific questions. Her blink rate is through the roof. She's shrinking and turtling more. She goes to internal voice when she's asked one of the best questions an interrogator can ask. Is there anything else you should tell me? That's a beautiful question and one that professionals all use. Precisely where or where she should be though, is this emotional act, this accessing when she's doing it. So there's nothing wrong with her going to an internal conversation than emotional accessing. Then she goes in this weird little meditation pose which is just odd as it can be. I'm always a fan of people doing weird stuff because it gives me insight into their personality. But then she goes into what we typically, the old days, it would have called a kinesthetic plane where you're not doing visual or auditory accessing. You're just down here in emotion and internal voice. She's behind her face working. She's doing our job for us. You never wanna bother that. You wanna let that person do it. Then when she asks her questions and she pokes her little, she goes to front of mouth talking. She said just thinking and fading facts. She, here's another, disperse the victim. She goes at him and then she lowers her head and looks at her in data intake. We've got her behind her face. I thought this might actually turn into an interrogation instead of it just being a question. It's pretty nice. Chase, what do you got? Yeah. So Greg, I'm gonna hammer down hard on this yoga pose for a second. Yeah. So for you listening and all of our subscribers, I want you to watch this again and I want you to just try it on through my eyes. When you watch this again, here's what I want you to see. This question she asks about, is there anything else I didn't ask you that I should have? It's a common question in all interviews. Somehow, I don't know why, but this question makes the interviewer feel slightly socially awkward. The interviewer is actually a couching, qualifying and explaining her reasoning for asking this question. She gets a little bit nervous asking this question. In the moment that Lori sees this insecurity and nervousness, her entire being changes. She develops self-confidence in one second in the presence of insecurity here. And you can see her entire body shift. She's no longer protecting her abdomen. She sits up, takes this confident posture and looks like a completely different human being. You're seeing someone who becomes confident the moment she's made someone feel or observes a person being socially awkward about asking questions. And I'll just leave you with that to decide what that means. But I want you to see that, so that you'll recognize it in your life if you ever encounter someone similar to this. You get embarrassed and they start acting more confident or you feel bad and they start acting more confident. That's a big deal. The rest of this clip is just covertly, emotionally justifying the gunshot wound to a person who feels emotions. And I think she believes she's gonna go home. And I think she believes this will all be over soon. And she's just gonna go home and have some dinner. That's all I got. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, here's what I got. I think this is the biggest change in baseline I've ever seen. The only thing that might be as big is there's one interrogation out there or interview out there where they leave the room and the subject stands on their head. I can't remember who it is now, but it- Jody Arias. Okay, Jody Arias. Which that's a big change in baseline because all the rest of the interview, her head is pointing upwards and then in that part of her interview, her head's- I mean, that's a big change. In this particular case, we see her legs disappear completely and come up off the ground and into the chair. That's really quite significant. I like your theory about it, Chase. I really like that. Look, whether that theory is accurate or inaccurate, you know, is, you know, we may well find out over time. However, it's clearly a big thing is happening here. Clearly a big thing is happening here. It's a spiritual pose as well. So I think you're right, Chase, in that it gives its high status. It's like, and then the head bows and everything goes internal and there's just a lot of space, a lot of thinking space. I think there's some real thinking going on there as well. I think this has given her time to work out what's next because she doesn't really answer the question at all. The question is, you know, is there anything else that we should have asked? She doesn't answer that. She goes back into enforcing the extreme emotional state that the husband was in. So back to the old story, doesn't answer the question, but what a bold and big, big move. Never seen anything so big apart from standing on your head in an interview room. Scott, what do you go on this one? All right. I think the interrogator did that on purpose. I know what that looks like. And we've talked about that before, not in this specific situation. She's trying to make her, did the same thing to Ted Bundy, trying to make her feel smart, trying to make her feel like the interrogator is not very smart. I think she did it on purpose. I think she's, I think the interrogator is that smart. I think she's that slick because this is going so smoothly. It's going so well. Everything's just kind of moving right along. There's no button of heads or anything. And she's getting all this information out of her. And I think she did that on purpose. That was my take from it. Because as soon as I saw it, I said, oh my gosh, that's what she's doing. And you're right, Jay. She got all cocky at that point. She thinks she's got it all figured out. And that's what you want sometimes. So that might have been the road she was going down. And the question was excellent. And you're right, Greg. It's the, is there anything that you haven't told me that you feel like you should tell me? I use that when I'm talking to entrepreneurs. When I get hired to go talk to entrepreneurs, these guys are getting ready to invest in. And they said, go talk to these people. See what's going on over there as I talk to them. So I'm here just to talk to you and see what's going on. That's one of the ones. And it's about, you want to make it feel like it's the last thing you want to ask them. But when you're about three-fourths of the way through, that's when you scoot that one out. Because that gives you that extra time to work on all that. If they say anything that's weird or out of pocket or something you didn't expect, you've still got that time to talk to them about it. I'll leave it there. But I think that the interrogator knew. What are you going to say, Greg? You know why I use it that way? Is I give them an out, make them feel like the door is close. And then they feel liberated. You know, you go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. There's one more thing. There's one more thing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The island is you. And then do you remember if at any time, so you were trying to get away from him and you heard the shot prior to the shot. Do you remember at any point hearing your husband or your brother saying anything to either of them? So my second very ridiculous question is, is there anything else that I didn't ask about or anything that we didn't cover that you think is important? I always ask that just because I wasn't there. So we're going through something that happened a super small amount of time. Yes. So, yeah, go for it. Just thinking, just that. He was just so angry, like super scary. Did you get it? You have to take your phone away from like a 16-year-old and then freak out. Like, their world disagrees. Like, I've taken my phone away from a 16-year-old boy before and he like, he's like, wanted to kill itself because they came to that function. That's how it was. It was like, it's something on his phone that he does not want me to see that he was like, freaking out. Like, to the point where I thought he would hit me and go out with the head to get the phone. Okay. So you thought, okay. So you thought, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you thought it was possible that he was gonna hurt you. Absolutely. He was gonna hurt me entirely. Okay. Not JJ. You've never heard JJ. Okay. And you hurt my brother. Yeah. He was going like ballistic about, it was bad. Okay. I'm gonna go talk to her real quick. And then if, obviously, you know, we'll be here for a little bit, hopefully not too much longer. But if you think of anything or there's anything that kind of pops in your head or something else that we didn't cover, obviously. So I'm gonna go talk to her for just a little bit and then I'll kind of come back and check with you and then we'll kind of go from there. So I know my partner's talking to your brother over in one of the other interview rooms. So we're gonna just try to get, you know, as much done as we can and go from there. Okay. Okay. And then, is there anybody that you need to call or anything or you want to wait a little bit? Yes. And wait a little bit. We'll see. I don't know what I would say. And if you want to, you can think about it. So we do have victim services that work within the police department. They're right over here. They're not cops. They're civilians. And they do, Jessica, who was out there with the fire department. So they're kind of our crisis response. They come right away. So our victim services that work in the department are kind of more long-term type support systems. So they're just a really good resource because they do a lot of stuff with our families and things like that and can help with support services and questions you might have. She's been through so much. So it might be a good idea. I just can't stand for her to have to go through all this. Yeah. It might be a good idea maybe before I take you guys back today that I get one of them to come in and maybe sit and talk with you guys and see. And it's not something, there's a bunch of stuff they can, you know, offer. But it's good to have a contact and like a name and a face and a phone number. You know, that way maybe a couple of days from now, a week from now, or if there's something going on or you think you need help with something, it may not be something that's necessarily up like me and my partner's alley, but it very much will maybe up theirs. So I'd like for you to meet one of them before we leave that way. Hopefully it's, if there's something that they can help you and your daughter with they can, or even JJ or whatever else. Yeah, exactly. Okay. I haven't thought about it. Yeah. So he's used to him not being there, but he wouldn't understand even if you told him. Right. Like that somebody passed away, he doesn't understand what that means. Well, I mean, it's hard at seven to understand that. Anyway, that's true. But with him, he just doesn't, which is probably better because it doesn't comprehend things. But I don't know. It's just, that's a lot to think about. Yeah. So let me go find one of them. All right, Chase, what do you got? I'll just say one thing. When this video comes back up, all I want you to look at from my end, y'all may ask some more, but when it comes back up, just look at every single moment she says a word or two with her eyes closed. That's all. You'll see everything that you've ever wanted to see and you'll be doing it yourself. Scott, what do you got? Your mic sounds like those ASMR mics when you're talking. I don't know what microphone you're using, but it sounds, well, it's working very well. Wow. It's working very well. Yeah, that's really weird, man. It sounds like you're doing that ASMR stuff. Is that what you say in ASMR when they're putting their type in and stuff? I don't get that whole thing. She's just rehashing the reason she's going back through making her list of why this guy's fault. And that's, I mean, I could go on for 10 days about that. That's really all I got on there is my list of stuff. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I think though she starts apprehensive about a question, here comes the, she thinks there's a big hard question coming, I believe. And the reason I say that, she starts off with her chin down to throat protect and apprehension of that question coming. Then she realized she's given a bone. She starts to illustrate again. Her hands come back up, her voice is to monster. She's back to big lorry, going ballistic about pause, pause, pause, pause. It was bad request for approval. Forehead up crosses her arms and there's lip compression and then okay at the front of the mouth. I think she was afraid and then she comes to this. I think now she's in a glide path and she thinks the end is close enough. I think she expected this to be harder and more of an interrogation. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, okay. So you're going to have to go back and watch that video a couple more times because I got something, you got to focus on what Chase said there and then go back again and focus on something completely different. Now with AMSR, I don't know whether you've watched any of that stuff but it's quite interesting because they often, those presenters often do stuff with their hands as well and they'll like tap on the mic stuff but also they'll do kind of flicky things with their fingers as well. And it's a kind of to not just hourly excite you but visually excite you as well. Watch the interviewer's hand. You get a really great close up of the interviewer's hand and I agree with you all. I think this interviewer, this interrogator is really quite good because I want you to see how indefinite and indirect the hand movements are. There's nothing, there's nothing pointed or direct around it. It's all very indefinite because she's creating this idea of, look, there's lots of opportunity. You can go meet this person and then we'll maybe come back and then maybe something else will happen and like there's no big deal. There's nothing terrible going on. It's all really good. Creating a sense, I believe of confidence in this subject, potentially even overconfidence so she may be able to come back with some new ideas and create some discomfort. So it's lovely, lovely what's going on there. Enjoy that. If you're into AMSR and the visuals of that you got something quite beautiful happening there. There, that's all I got on that. Oh, no, I got one last thing on this. The subject says that her kid wouldn't understand the death, wouldn't understand somebody being dead. The kid, well, my understanding would be from about the ages of three to five most developed kids will understand death but they don't understand necessarily that it's forever. So, and they'll start to play with the idea of death and they'll play, you know, being dead games but they always come back to life from five to seven and seven and above the permanence of death is understood. So is it that this mother feels that the child is not correctly developed? That's correct, Mark. He isn't. He isn't, yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay. Well, then yeah, she's right. Then he wouldn't. Fair play, fair play to her. Perfect. I wouldn't dispute. So you thought, and I don't want to put words in your mouth but you thought it was possible that he was gonna hurt you? Absolutely, he was gonna hurt me entirely. Okay. Not JJ, you've never heard JJ. Okay. And you hurt my brother. Yeah. He was going like ballistic about, it was that. Okay. I'm gonna go talk to her real quick. Okay. And then if obviously, we'll be here for a little bit. Hopefully not too much longer. But if you think of anything or there's anything that kind of pops in your head or something else that we didn't cover, obviously. So I'm gonna go talk to her for just a little bit and then I'll kind of come back and check with you and then we'll kind of go from there. So I know my partner's talking to your brother over in one of the other interview rooms. So we're gonna just try to get as much done as we can and go from there. Okay. Okay. And then is there anybody that you need to call or anything or you wanna wait a little bit? I don't know. And wait a little bit, we'll see. I don't know what I would say. And if you want to, you can think about it. So we do have Victim Services Network within the police department. They're right over here. They're not cops, they're civilians. And they do, Jessica, who was out there with the fire department. So they're kind of our crisis response. They come right away. So our Victim Services that work in the department are kind of more long-term type support systems. So they're just a really good resource because they do a lot of stuff with our families and things like that and can help with support services and questions you might ask. And through so much. So it might be a good idea. I just can't stand for her to have to go through all this. Yeah, it might be a good idea maybe before I take you guys back today that I get one of them to come in and maybe sit and talk with you guys and see. And it's not something, there's a bunch of stuff they can offer. But it's good to have a contact and like a name and a face and a phone number. You know, that way maybe a couple days from now, a week from now, or if there's something going on or you think you need help with something. It may not be something that's necessarily up like me and my partner's alley, but it very much, well, maybe up there's. So I'd like for you to meet one of them before we leave that way. Hopefully it's, if there's something that they can help you and your daughter with, they can, or even JJ or whatever else. Yeah, exactly. I haven't thought about him. Yeah. So he's used to him not being there, but he wouldn't understand even if you told him. Right. That somebody passed away. He doesn't understand what that means. Well, I mean, it's hard at seven to understand that. That's true, but with him, he just doesn't. Which is probably better because it doesn't comprehend things, but I don't know. It's just, yeah, it's a lot to think about. Yeah. So let me go find one of them. And then, I like your daughter a lot. She's fun. Yeah. So one of the victim services, Denise is here. So I kind of told her just a little bit of what happened. So if you're good with it, I'm going to have her come over and I'm going to introduce her to you guys so you guys can talk for a little bit, which kind of works well too because I need to run over to where my partner's at and just talk to him a little bit. That way, you guys will have a little bit, hopefully extra support if you need it. So I'm going to go grab Denise real fast and then introduce you guys. Okay. All right, I'll go first on this one. The guilty sleep. That's really all I got to say. She's so relaxed. She goes to sleep. She's so confident. Or maybe not even confident. She's just relaxed. None of it bothers her. You know why? Because nothing can bother her because she doesn't have the proper amygdala function in there, I would say is just my opinion. But if you're dealing with psychopath, things like this don't bother her at all, not even a little bit. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, okay. So let me just put forward an idea for the opposite of that just because I can. Both hands are protected. Both ankles are protected. The abdomen is protected. And so maybe she looks casual. And her head is down as well. So the neck's protected. Maybe she looks casual, but actually it's the play dead response and she is feeling some fear. Now I don't know because I'm not a mind reader. I think both ideas there are potentially the ones. I could be a bit of both. Could be a bit of both. Greg, what do you got on this one? I think she's in her head space. I think she is locked down tight. Her body's locked down tight. There's protection, there's whatever. But whether she is headed to sleep or whether she's headed to deep internal, she's behind her face working. I like it. I'd come back in and give her a few more prods and pokes, give her a little bit more homework to work on and then put her back behind her face and let her work. That would be me. What about you, Chase? I don't have anything. Yeah, I would use a few. I like your daughter a lot. She's fun. Yeah. So one of the victim services, Denise, is here. So I kind of told her just a little bit of what happened. So if you're good with it, I'm gonna have her come over and I'm gonna introduce her to you guys so you guys can talk for a little bit, which kind of works well too because I need to run over to where my partner's at and just talk to him a little bit. That way, you guys will have a little bit of a talk that way, you guys will have a little bit, hopefully extra support if you need it. So I'm gonna go grab Denise real fast and then introduce you guys. Okay. So Mark, what have you seen so far in this case? Well, what's amazing for me is one of the biggest changes in baseline I've ever seen other than somebody potentially standing on their head. So extraordinary. I will be interested to see what comes up. I don't know whether we will get some of footage you're in court as we're getting other people in court, not quite sure. But what an interesting case this could well turn out to be. Chase, what are you seeing so far? Yeah, I think we're seeing a combination of a person that has antisocial traits, a lack of empathy, some hardcore membership and what they call a doomsday cult and some possible mental health issues there. And you can see routinely, this is a rare example that we don't see it. We can see it sometimes in an interview with psychopaths, but you can see someone routinely searching through their Rolodex to discover how a rational human being would respond to a stimulus. Great. Yeah, guys, I always say this, if you never lived among volatile people, you don't know volatility begets or attracts volatility. And so we don't know what happened in this house, but there were four people who knew, three of them are dead. Let's just leave it at that. And two of them apparently, she's being blamed with. So then we go from there, one of them died of natural causes, but this kind of volatility creates a personality trait. And if she's had those kind of altitudes throughout her life and she got married, I think she's been married five times and every one of those ended in some kind of horrible situation, I don't know, then you expect that people become comfortable in that whether they're psychopaths or whether they're just broken toys because of things that have happened, they're gonna have a different mindset than you do. And so I try to always think, what makes this person do this? I'll leave it at that, Scott. All right, yeah, I think this is a wonderful example and study of what I would assume to be a psychopath because we're seeing everything that's always talked about about them. No emotions, no emotional way it should be. The emotions we're seeing are generated and that aren't real except for if you've seen with anger and those types of things where she talks about that in the situation she was in that got her into this interrogation in the first place. So I'll leave it right there. All right, fellas, I think this was another good one and we'll see you next time. So what do you got?