 Here we are back out here in Berg Street, Mall, Melbourne. We've got a sign that says, if you're not vegan, you abuse animals. Prove me wrong. We're going to see if the public can prove me wrong. Come on. Come on, come and tell it to me. Hello. Hi. What's your name? Anne. Hello, Anne. So, I'm honestly, because I'm an animal lover. You're an animal lover? Yes. And I'm an animal lover, and I used to eat lots of meat, and now I'm cutting down my meat, because I don't go to the races anymore. I don't do a lot of things that involve cruelty to animals. But what do you do when you just need that little bit of meat? Like, can you be a flexitarian? Okay. Like, once a week. First of all, do you agree what I've said on the sign? Yes. What does it say on the sign? Look, I don't see any animals, but there wouldn't be farmed animals if people didn't eat them. A lot of animals wouldn't exist. Yeah. Do you think that if you're not vegan, you abuse animals? You do. Indirectly, you do. Yes, you do. Yeah, like, you pay for someone to abuse animals for you. Just because you don't see it, you do it. I know. But how about if you just moderate and cut down? Okay. What do you think this is? Do you think this is okay? I'm sorry. That's babed. I'm sorry. This is standard practice in the pork industry to mutilate the pigs like that, though, so they don't bite their tails. And they can eat the lambs, too. And they can eat the lambs, too. Okay. Do you think a little bit of this is okay? No. But don't you think it's better than the amount of meat I used to eat, just eating a little bit? He's only a little bit dead. Well, no, don't say that. Yes. He has a little bit of a bolt gun in his skull. Oh, look. Look, they're shooting him. See now? That's right. There you go. A piece of cheese. I watched that on purpose to turn me off, on purpose, because you can't be blinded. Look what they do. That's a dairy cow. Yeah, but where is that being done? Australia. This is Australia. This is standard. A little bit of torture, a little bit of animal abuse. Go vegan. She had a good reaction. She was like a mum, you know, like everyone's typical mum. What did you think of this? What's your name, mate? I'm Patrick. You're being filmed, is that cool? Yeah, that's fine. Okay. One second. What did you think of the sign? Of the sign? Yeah. Do you agree with that? No, obviously not. Why, obviously? Because you don't directly abuse animals, but it's an interesting topic, yeah. I agree with it somewhat. You do? Yeah. So when you pay someone to stab an animal on the throat for your steak, do you think that's abuse? I don't think it's abuse. I think it's fueling an industry that shouldn't be supported anymore. Okay. But it's not directly abusing animals. Well, I didn't say directly. Well, let's put it this way. Let's just say I paid my friend to bash you. That's a good point. But I had the problem with you. My friend didn't, right? Yeah. He's neutral. Why vegan, though? It's interesting that it's vegan. Yeah. Well, because this is the dairy industry. Yeah. Okay. This is horrific abuse. This is just them being milked, but which is, I feel like it's slavery, which it is slavery. And these are bobby calves being murdered because they don't produce milk. What do you think that is? Do you think that's abuse? Yeah. Yeah. This is the babies being taken because, you know, they don't want them to drink the milk that we drink. Well, that, not me, that you guys drink. Yeah. It's interesting because I come from the country. Yeah. I study environmental science. Yeah. And I mean, I was an intern and now on the marketing for a social enterprise, which is not fighting this specifically, but sustainable development. So you've put me on the spot. Well, let's just talk about your personal contribution to this violence. Oh, I, well, I, yeah, I do contribute to it when I buy meat, don't I? Yeah. So you're contributing to animal abuse when you buy meat? Yes. So unless you're vegan, you abuse animals? No, not necessarily. You don't have to be vegan. Well, wait a second. If you're not vegan, you purchase these products that abuse animals. Not all products are produced this way though. Yeah. But wait a second. What is your definition of abuse? That's where we're getting stuck here. I'm not arguing against the fact that they're abused. Wait a second. How do you do this without abusing someone? I don't know. Where have we gone? I think to say I'm buying a meat means I'm abusing animals is too direct. It's an indirect. It's indirect abuse of animals. So it's abuse of animals? Yes. Let's just say I was paying someone to enslave a woman and, you know, for the sex trade or something, for the sex slavery trade. I'm paying someone to enslave the woman. I'm paying him. He's enslaving her. He's a neutral person. He needs money. Like, look, he'd prefer not to. You know, these people in these slaughterhouses prefer not to. Yes. I'm paying them to work in these slaughterhouses and abuse animals. Who's the animal abuser? I agree. I think agriculture is something that's going to, in the future, one day, be obsolete. And we're going to see a massive shift. I get it. I get it. But we're going off the rails here. You're talking about the future. I want to talk about your direct involvement in this abuse. Is this sign incorrect now that you're following the logic? I want you to be responsible. Oh, yeah, definitely. I want you to feel accountable. 100%, 100%. Yes, I am accountable. Yeah. Yes. It's just that you were asking about the word abuse. Yeah, well, you know abuse is exploitation and use. So if I was to use you without your consent, I'd be abusing you. Yeah. No matter if I did it humanely. If I didn't, you didn't feel it when I raped and stole your children when you didn't see it and you didn't feel it when I bolt gunned you in the skull and ate your flesh. Yeah. It's your flesh. When I think about the agriculture industry, I don't necessarily think about this side of it. I'm also thinking about the environmental impact it has. This has got nothing to do with the environment and everything to do with the animal's rights being taken away from them and their bodies being exploited. Okay. That's what veganism is. It's to do with animal rights. Okay. All right. I always look at it from an environmental aspect. Why? You don't care about them? Well, I do care about them being abused. But what if I was to say to you the slave ships that took all the people from one country to another to be enslaved? What if I said that those slave ships would cause some environmental impact? What would that be like? What did you think of me? Oh, terrible. You think I was a terrible person? No, yeah. I think when you talk about humans. You think I was a terrible person if I thought that concentration camps caused an environmental impact. That's why we should shut them. Yes. Okay. So should I think you're a terrible person? We're talking about the environment when animals have been raped and killed. I don't think it takes a terrible person to fuel it. I think the times are changing. You are seeing a shift in the agricultural industry. Why is it changing? People are waking up to this shit, eh? Yeah, definitely. I think this is half of it. And the other half is what I've been speaking about, the environmental side of everything, yeah. Well, for these animals, this is the brunt of it. Yes. I'm an animal person. I'm speaking from the animal's position. Yep. And if you were in that position, I'd be fighting for you too, bro. Yeah, definitely. And what if someone said, well, let's say you're suffering in this slaughterhouse. Put yourself in their position. It's a hypothetical. And someone would just say, oh, we should stop this because the environment, though. Yeah. Good point. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I've never seen one of these documentaries. I've never really looked into it. And it's also one of those things where you grow up. It just being normal. Like in the country, you know, it's just normal for that shit to happen. I used to eat steak all the time too, man. Yeah. Exactly. And not that I think it's okay. Or that I'm not trying to give anyone any leeway here either. What I was doing was abusive and cruel and wrong. Yes. Yeah, definitely. And it's, it's, it's like what you said, it's about the awareness and learning what actually is happening. So this here, like, look, we've got our footage. This is what's going on. This is standard practice across the board. These are downers. And this is Australian industry. Okay. I've worked in an avatar. Yeah. So you've seen the blood, the violence that, you know, talk to people on the kill floor. They don't like it. Oh, I was, there was the most depressed part of my life. I wasn't on the kill floor. I was in the loadout. But yeah, I had to deal with all the caucuses. Yeah. So as hard as it was for you, how much harder was it for them, the animals? Well, it's supposedly pain, painless. But I haven't looked into it. I don't know. I don't know the specifics. Is that in the human context? Probably. Yeah. It's painless. Shoot him straight in the back of the head. Yeah. Look, I'm going to tell you the most environmentally friendly thing I can do right now is go out and cull humans, because we are destroying the environment more than anyone else on earth. Okay. But we wouldn't do that because it's a right violation. Okay. Ethical concerns. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you. The environment is a, look, it's not a non-issue. It's not, it's got nothing to do with the issue of animal rights. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And veganism. Okay. Yeah. So when we talk about veganism, we're talking about this. Okay. All right. That's something I didn't know. I thought it was just completely cutting meat out of your diet, which- It's about animal exploitation. Okay. Yeah. I think meat's just not necessary for owner diets anymore. Like, we can get the nutrition in other ways. It's not- It's horrible. Without this. Without destroying the planet. Without everything negative that comes with this. However, you're going to see people go out of jobs. And that's another topic. What's worse? Yes, obviously. Obviously, like, if we make a shift, we're going to be creating other jobs at the same time with- Time-based innovations. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. They're not going to be destroying our environment and murdering and exploiting and subjugating the innocent beings, which is our focus. Yes. Yeah. Nice to meet you, mate. Cheers. Challenge 22 if you want to try a little vegan challenge and be ethical for life afterwards. Okay. Yeah, definitely. Have you seen the vertical towers of vertical crops they call it? Yeah. Have you seen them? Really good. They take up less land and less crop deaths and all those sort of things, which we all should be concerned about. But when I'm talking about this, it kind of feels like an injustice to talk about the environment. Like I said in this, if you were enslaved, I wouldn't talk about the environment. I'd be trying to free you. Yeah. Yeah, I get you. But another thing, if these weren't being bred, they wouldn't have life anyway. Yeah. Apply it in the human context. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty sick, isn't it? Yeah. I gave you life. I gave my children life. I can exploit and kill you. Yeah. Awesome, brothers. Now stop here, mate. Take care. Hey, hello, worries. There are people out there who are for the death panel, but she says, if you in your mind cannot say for certain, I would pull the trigger, I would inject them. So there's something in your heart that is not fully committed. And that's why you think about veganism from that premise. Well, because the only reason I can eat meat is because it doesn't look like an animal. If I had to go out and actually murder the cow or murder the chicken, I couldn't do it. Very strong point. So that to me sort of, it feels quite like a similar point. Well, let's just say, let me put this to you. Would you pay someone to kill me if you hated my guts? No. Well, you're paying someone to kill innocent animals when you are a vegan. Yeah, you're complicitive. Yeah. Yeah, so that's something that's better. Do you agree with the sign, by the way? I know, it seems a bit harsh. Truth is harsh, isn't it? Well, that is true. The truth is... Let's follow it logically. Like, what do you consider abuse? Exploitation use? Yeah. Taking away someone's children, breeding them, putting them in pens? I really want to look at that. Gas chambers? Yeah. Yeah. So when you pay someone to enslave and kill and chop up animals for you, are you not complicit in that abuse? Oh, absolutely. If you don't do something to stop it, then you're accepting it and going along with it and saying this. Well, maybe that's an activism argument, like if you're directly trying to stop it, but you're actually causing it. We can talk about being neutral, which is being vegan, not causing it. And then we can talk about activism, which is trying to stop it. This is what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to stop it. But just, you're actively paying for them to be abused, which is why I say, if you're not vegan, you're abusing animals. Yeah. Well, that makes sense because you are, as long as you don't have to see it, then you don't think about it. You have a good heart. Conscious. But I did wonder about cows with veganism, because vegans obviously don't drink milk. But if cows aren't milked, doesn't that kill them? Don't their udders explode and they die? Okay. So let's talk about the dairy industry. Here's footage from the dairy industry in Australia. So cows to produce milk have to have a baby. So they're forcibly impregnated, and then they, so they, this is the way they're forcibly impregnated. So when they have their baby, the baby gets taken away. If the baby's born a male, they get shot on sight, okay? Because males don't produce milk for the dairy industry, okay? So they can be grown for veal or grown for beef, but usually shot on sight, this is artificial insemination. It's basically they're raping her. Now, she'll produce milk year after year. Okay. She'll dry up. They'll rape her again. She'll produce another child. She'll have that taken. And then after she can't produce milk anymore, turn into beef. Okay. So if cows only produce milk, they're like human women. They only produce milk when they have a baby. Do you have any children? No. So it's not like if we stopped dairy farming, all these cows would die because their udders would explode because they're full of milk and no one's milking them. They skip out a lot of the procedure. They don't tell us that cows are raped and have their children, they're impregnated, have their calves taken from them, and then they take the milk. They don't tell us that. No, that was just always something I heard that you have to milk cows, otherwise they die. Well, they're milking them three times a day in these big milking parlours and they've been selectively bred to produce 12 times more milk than normally. It's an industry, basically. They're industrializing these animals. Now, whatever they tell you is their excuse for this. It's just their excuse. Yeah, well, that's the thing. I think a lot of people in good faith accept what they say and say, oh, well, they would know. And so you don't know what the actual truth is because you just take it on good faith. That's what they're saying. Well, they have their procedures online. You can check up the dairy humane standards in Australia. All of these practices of taking calves away, killing bobby calves, slaughtering the mothers after they can't produce milk for us anymore, turning them to burgers, turning them into leather couches. This is all easy for you to find out yourself. We have footage from inside these places. We're getting the footage. Industry won't. We're showing people. Yeah, it's just something I've been thinking about for a while. If I myself couldn't actually murder an animal for food, there must be something in my conscience and in my heart that says, I'm not comfortable with the process. We have other things to eat and every single individual here in Melbourne right now has got other things to eat other than someone's body. Can you recommend a good vegan cookbook? I can recommend you a fantastic Facebook group. It's called Challenge 22. You can do a little vegan challenge at the start and they help you with all this. You can go, hey, I'm in Melbourne. I want to do the vegan challenge and you can say, what's the good milk? Where's this? What's some good recipes? And I work with them and anyone who's interested can sign up. Well, I mean, my family is a Sicilian farmer and they couldn't afford meat. They were peasants, so I know a lot of already... Pasta and beans and... Yeah, things like that. Okay, so yeah, it's something I've been sort of struggling with a bit for a while. Don't seem like you'd be comfortable with abusing animals. No. Well, as you said, none said, if you yourself say I'm for the death penalty, but you couldn't actually do the lethal injection, you couldn't pull the switch on the electric chair, then obviously there's something in you that's not comfortable with it. And if I can eat an animal, it's unrecognizable, but if I had to actually go out there and murder an animal, I couldn't do it, which says to me, I'm not comfortable with it. Deep down. You're a vegan in your heart. I think so. Really nice talking to you. Remember, it's called Challenge 22. Challenge 22. No, it's just Google the website and then you can sign up and now contact you back. Okay. Thanks.