 Everybody back here on Segal Talks at the Martini Segal Theater Center at the Graduate Center CUNY in Manhattan, New York City at the City University and it's again another day on planet Earth and it's a Friday and we are finishing weeks 16 of our Segal Talks where we talk to theater artists from New York, from the U.S. and all around the globe from all continents. I think we had over 120 artists we talked to now and it has been quite stunning to hear all these different experiences, how they experienced that moment of corona, the time of corona. We had Thiago Rodriguez yesterday from Portugal who runs the National Theater, who had to close it, open it up and had to close it again last Monday because of one case 150 artists had to be tested and collaborators about everybody was fine so they are reopening today and he says how complicated, how difficult it is, we heard from Susanna Kennedy from Berlin and about her journey she's going through how she's rethinking her work and from so many many many others. In America it is still bleak compared to what we hear from Europe. Susanna said her show opened again with restrictions and with only partial seating. Thiago's work was shown again and they are all very careful they have access to fast-tasking. Here we have 76,000 infections yesterday it's the double amount what used to be the norm 30, 35,000 and it will go up at least to a hundred thousand that's what people suggest. It is stunning, it is against what New York City experience we had I think around in April we had 800 deaths in one day. This is a terrible thing even to think about and actually five days ago Bloomberg's news report there was not one Corona death in New York City so we are doing something right here and that rejection to wear a mask which some governors even imposing on cities where mayors say people wear a mask and they say no it's shocking that's how it's politicized that if you're for Trump you don't wear a mask if you're against Trump you wear one it's not the case so it's shocking and it's a good thing that we have artists with us who can help us to make some meaning out of this time where we live in it's a time of profound confusion of shaking everything what we do what we think about what we feel is essential and if we ever said we needed some time to think things through this is now if you want to change it it's now things have to change also now it's the time to prepare for like Virginia Barbas at the moment before you shoot the arrow this is the one that is important and this is the moment now where we prepare this incubation time this is on a Kennedy said with us today we have a force in American theater we have the great Caridad switch with us Caridad welcome welcome back to the seagulls that you've been with us so many many times and the Caridad is the 2012 OB lifetime achievement award winner and she got also the ATCA prize Primo's Prize for her House of the Spirits which she adapted is about again this novel is a great great work she did her works a red bike and Guapa now performing or they're going around our work prepared and to be performed her place and performance text and English and Spanish focus on human and environmental rights gender fluidity incantatory speech acts and hybridity and she also wrote some books 50 playwrights on their craft Mitchell and Trask had had taken the English and many many others she is on the editorial board of Rutledge where she also write the books for the contemporary theater review and also as which I didn't know her first feature film based on her work will come out fugitive dreams with Mattis and April Mattis and Scott Shepard and so it will come out on 2020 which is this year and the Fantasia International Film Festival in Montreal and but most of all Caridad has been next to her great work in writing in translation is a brilliant translator and adapter and she has been also an organizer a community organizer as Obama would say she created the no passport movement conferences symposia were so so many people got together learned about each other she created a network that has been significant and so she has been in contact over many many years or decades with with the scene with Latinx scene and but of course also with American theater and so it's a great to have you with us Caridad sorry for my lengthy introduction we do have international viewers who might not know all about you so so where are you and if you are not in New York what time is I am in New York so I think I'm on I'm on the same time as you are yeah so what's going on how how do you experience this moment oh my gosh uh well many things you know as I'm sure some some people may have been in the same boat I was in terms of teaching so I in the middle of March suddenly it was like turn everything online it was I was right in the middle of spring break and I had to as with many of my colleagues kind of rethink the entire the rest of the semester also holding a lot of traumatic space for my students and myself and my peers while also trying to navigate faith in artistry and you know why you know I think I think that this is a moment where I think some people are like why should I write anything why should I make any art what does it matter and I think that you know what I've been finding especially from students has been like a desire to maybe as a means of escape but but a desire to actually articulate yeah and not necessarily articulate stories that are about you know one-on-one minimetically about this time but but more about fears and doubts and dreams that they're having so so I think that it's been an interesting time so I'm going to do my nose for just a second this is live so it's cool yay and it's not the corona it's not the corona no but I have like a little allergy I have allergies so that's been like kind of maximized by all of this it's happening in the world um and yeah and I just feel like there's also been I mean obviously we're in a an interesting time of reckoning um in culture both through through the pandemic and what it's exposed in terms of fault lines which I think have always been there you know I think it's fascinating that people like oh my god I didn't know like the theater world was so hierarchical and and so and there was so much disparity economically and I'm like yeah it's always been there uh but so it's interesting that that you know there's some uh reawakening our awareness of that but also around BLM and and and how that's also galvanized uh looking at institutional practices and systemic racism and um theater specifically uh but also globally and around other systems uh culturally and so I just think that we're in a fascinating moment of there's that word called pivot which I don't like very much but I will use it for now uh of a pivot moment but I also think I worry a little bit that if you look at history you know uh it's one step forward two steps back so I also have this fear that it will be like oh yes this is a moment of reckoning and then you know in six months time people are like well that's done and we go back to the normal you know what I mean and I and I think that actually uh there is I I fear that that desire to go back to a prior moment uh pre reckoning um might be a moment of great damage so so I'm in terms of discussions and conversations and awarenesses that have occurred but on the other side of all of this is here we are on zoom uh and I you know I've always been a big a big advocate for digital theater since about the year 2000 transmedia work especially and so I feel like the rediscovery or first for a lot of people or or the new the new discovery of oh this is a medium that can also be theater and what does that mean um uh I think it's been really exciting and I think a lot of innovative work has been happening around trying to figure out what what can make this a live experience as we're having now or if it's pre-recorded how can it capture the idea of immediacy and liveness so testing the notion of liveness in this medium so I find like that's too really exciting it's also pointed to moments of accessibility for people that have never been able to afford to go to like see a show like suddenly it's in their house and they can download it or they can view it uh and I think that's that's found a new audience you know for for the community and I and I hope that that continues like I think my other worry about who knows how long this is going to last but let's say let's do the six-month model for just a second or maybe it's like the nine-month model I would say especially in the US I would say that uh what I what I dream of is that uh physical physical building based theaters uh also sustain uh parallel digital programming um so that we don't lose the audiences that have actually found solace and comfort and have also new audiences that have come to theater spaces that normally would not have been accessible to them for physical reasons but also for economic ones how did you do how did you do with the time and you in your apartment in New York how did how did you experience it oh um I've been writing like crazy I mean I think the funny thing for writers is that this is sort of our sort of our normal like we're used to like just being hunkered down and working and facing our screens um so so a part of that is familiar in a sense uh I think that there's been for me like I wrote I had two big projects that I had to work on so I had deadlines and so that was really helpful in terms of my own process I was like well I've got to do this one by this date and I will do it um and then I found myself with like loads of time to do the work and I was like oh now that's done check first draft down of this that I have to turn in the second draft down of this that I've turned in and then I wrote two other things and I've been like kind of never had a chapter for a book on Simon Stevens work that's coming out with uh Rutledge uh later in the year in like so I've been doing all sorts of writing audio pieces and digital pieces um so it's been flourishing but I've also been a little bit uh wondering like what's the you know I I tweeted the other day because I'm very active on Twitter but uh I tweeted the other day about oh I feel like we're on shifting sand and I feel like for for freelance artists especially that's precarious and the extreme the other part of that is that in just in terms of the industry in the field um you don't know like most people are being furloughed or are being let go right so so all the contacts or all the people that you're sort of normally used to talk to are now no longer in those positions and she's like well what's the field going to look like in nine months time or 12 months time and who will be in those positions and which theaters will survive so I think that part of it from a practitioner's perspective is really scary um because you sort of don't know like where your community will be uh and and who's going to make it through but what I've been finding um is that small like what I call smaller lower budget theater companies have just been to me like incredibly inspiring like really taking the reins and going if we're gonna do it on twitch you know we're gonna do it on that platform if we're gonna like figure out how to do it like with three dollars we're gonna make it you know so I feel like there's um that sense of resiliency and resourcefulness that scrappy small as people say um which is not an easy road to to have by the way but I feel like that's been that's been very inspiring for me which companies are artists did you did you do you mean yeah so yeah the there's a company in the Cincinnati called no theater k and ow uh and they've just uh they they were like very early let me around right when this hit us anyway uh in terms of shutdown around mid-march um the first I got an email from them and they were like we're putting our stuff online you know I mean they were gonna we have productions that we archive that we're gonna stream and we're gonna ticket them and they had a plan like they had a plan like the next day um which I thought was remarkable um when other people were like I don't know what I'm gonna do and maybe won't do anything and maybe we wait they were like we're taking action in fact they've actually decided they're gonna do a season next year and it probably will be an all digital season or some combination of digital and audio um so they're not relinquishing the idea of doing a season so they've been amazing women's theater festival in North Carolina small small super scrappy um approach me also around the same time right when this all hit and they were like we're doing stuff on twitch we're gonna do readings we're gonna do digital productions we're gonna somehow make it happen we're gonna pay our artists even if it's like five dollars when to pay them um yeah and feeling like the out of out of you know extremely precarious and unsettling circumstances rising to the occasion uh and and I find that remarkable uh and exciting um and also I feel like there's real leadership strangely enough at places where any communities where I think maybe are not as visible in terms of mainstream press or or national press but are actually doing really strong work one to sustain their audience space and two to expand their audience space as well by by connecting with the digital platform um so how is your community doing how is the no passport community the nopers yeah what can we hear from everyone what do I hear from everyone I think a lot of fear and a lot of doubt and a lot of unsettledness I think uh we're still publishing so uh I'm in the middle of copy editing a new volume right now and preparing two more volumes for the fall so so that part of what we do is still active and and you know it's a little bit slower because I'm having to do everything myself um but uh but that's okay and you find the books you do all of it I do everything I do the whole thing yeah it's like hours and hours of hours of work but it's for love right so so it's great and then um yeah and then I think people have just been expressing fear and doubt I think a lot of people are thinking about leaving the theater entirely uh feeling like the field is not there for them anymore uh feeling disconnected and so I think that those fears are genuine and I and I want to respect them and I don't think this is gonna I think we're gonna have a lot of attrition in the field and that's gonna be tough when we come through this especially in the united states um to see what's on the other side of this in terms of who who's still standing in a way and I don't think our government's helping you know so so in any way uh so I think it's also exposed the fact that you know the fact that we don't have subsidy like other countries you know is but it's so clear and and there's no plan there's there's no plan to begin with in terms of handling handling the virus let alone a plan to to save the art sector and to figure out how to sustain freelancers and and people in administration and and the related industries around the arts uh to survive so I I think I think the fears uh the the conversations around no passport have been around a lot of them about economic inequity and also about will it be will this be a time when we'll lose like a great percentage of our theater companies and and it'll be 10 people left standing and those 10 people maybe the people with the biggest budgets that can have to have some reserves that can weather this uh so I think that's a that's a real concern and not want to be taken lightly. What do you say to someone when they say that I think we're going to close down? What do you say to someone? Oh Lord you know I mean do you talk about it or is it do you talk to artists then or theater companies? Do they ask you? Yeah yeah I think that the conversations have been around I mean especially talking to artists the conversations have been around um A is this a time to A rethink about the work that we make so one of that what part of that is embracing the digital medium the other part of that is um are there you know a lot of a lot of the people that I'm talking to are her moving in or wanting to move into VR virtual reality platforms and feeling like that might be an answer in some way to rethinking how they make work um and so that's been sort of an interesting side side conversation that's been happening around the artist I've been speaking with um the other conversations have been around getting back to um really the what I do is super old school you know we have a wagon and we put it in the middle of the field and we do theater that way like super low budget um super mobile um bringing theater into communities in that way um observing all the guidelines that need to be observed and trying to figure that out um so that's been interesting I've been talking to some designers around uh spoke to a designer yesterday uh Robert Mark Morgan who's based in uh St. Louis and and he's been designing a wagon theater that that can that can make pop-up theater happen in communities and and we were talking about oh how can why isn't everybody doing it you know like this is a way right if we know that outdoor spaces are safer is there is a way to do that um and and also to um slung low uh across the pond uh up in Leeds uh in the UK who've been doing extraordinary work around uh community building but also turning their theater space turning their pub basically they have a pub space turning it into a space that feeds feeds their community that has like a local food bank uh and that also presents performances socially distanced like on wagons but also with their audience intents and like there's just so many ways of thinking about what we do that might not be quote business as usual but it actually goes back to the roots of of what this form can do um so I'm excited by that uh and excited too about how we rethink the kinds of works that we see um who who's in the driver's seat in terms of programming and also how can we dream again you know I feel like right now what I'm hearing from a lot of artists particularly sort of theater makers and writers and is there's a should we be writing about corona right now do you know what I mean like there's a there's a our jobs as writers usually is we're responding to what's happening in the world and we're kind of making work and but it also feels like writing about most of the people that I know have been saying I don't want to write about this time like I don't want to write about people wearing masks I don't want to write about you know like there's a there's a um it's too traumatic and and but at the same time the rules are changing about how do you like I was like writing a piece the other day and talking to another colleague and we were talking about how do we stage intimacy uh how do we write intimacy let alone stage it uh when we're creating a piece of work for theater and that it changes the rules around that and I think that abiding by this the same rules doesn't really fly you know what I mean so so I love the challenge of that I love the restriction of that as an artist personally but I but I also think we're thinking everything um and also what's safe for performers and and and making sure that people are taking care of and I think that I know that a lot of the conversations at least publicly have been around audiences but I think that we're not talking a lot about how performers can be safe uh and in environment in a new performing environment and and I worry a little bit that we're not taking that into account especially when people are desperate for work and you know the whole industry instead of shut down around them and and the idea of like wanting to work again is so tempting but I think that we have to really take care of each other at this time in terms of the not just the CDC guidelines but also just making sure people are again we're we're all suffering from tremendous social trauma which is impacting not only what we make but how we present to ourselves so uh and how we interact with others uh even when we're we're trying to make art uh so so I think acknowledging that is really important um despite the rush and desire to to kind of make work uh uh somehow uh at this time if that makes sense yeah yeah of course and what about you do you do are you rethinking what do you believe in theater about what you the foundation the essentials the the why what and where and I or do you do you think I'm just wait till it's over I I publish it right and then we go back right no I don't think so I mean I'm I'm not a I'm not a waiting person anyway that's not my mode so uh in in everyday circumstances I tend to be a patient and kind of I think sometimes in a good way something in a bad way but uh just wanting to get to kind of stay connected and do the work uh I think that rethinking your work has been around uh I'm thinking a lot formally about what the work looks like I mean I always think about that but I think that more now um and and because of I said for the last oh gosh um 10 years I've just been really thinking about uh the relationship to the audience and audience engagement and in a very direct way and um how do you create spaces for audiences to to be with you um to be witness but also to interact and what are safe spaces in which that can happen so I've I've just been thinking a lot about creating um installation theater and also um what I call conversation theater so so that's been at the forefront of my mind a lot and on the side at the sidebar of that which maybe not a sidebar but going back to as a writer going back to stuff that I was thinking about you know when I first started writing when I did when I was writing for theater and uh and and writing things that maybe look more like poetry or that that could live in different mediums so I think what it's what's been exciting for me is to think about how can I make something that can live as audio live or digital how can I create work that's sort of can accommodate three different kinds of platforms potentially uh and still retain its integrity somehow um so that's been like a really just on a formal level that may seem like a really simple thing but I feel like that's been for me like personally really exciting uh to figure out like the strategy around that to go like oh my god how can I this could be really cool and uh and and then to see it mutate so I think that one of the exciting things around some of the work that's been streaming of mine like red bikes archival recording was streaming but uh there's a small company in Santa Fe New Mexico that's starting to stream um did a video performance of my play red bike that's starting to stream today and runs through the end of the month and that play is originally structured to accommodate one two three four five how many how many many people want to be a part of it uh and and it's you know it can be any generation it can be you know it can sort of is inflected by the performers that walk into it um and in Santa Fe they're doing it with 10 actors across generations uh and across ethnicities and across race um and I'm tremendously excited and they also did like a video rendering of the play so so which is uh super again super small company just trying to make work happen and that to me has been very exciting because it's made me rethink about how language since I'm primarily work with words as a writer uh uh how how does language function in different mediums and and I think what I find about this medium particularly the sort of zoom stage or the digital stage is that I've been finding that I'm attracted as a partitioner to its possibility for immediacy and intimacy intimacy like relationship to the viewer um maybe because of the camera and that it that it puts me I think closer to the material but I think then the language has to carry through the screen um in a different way than it would on stage so I'm I'm finding just on a technical level that to be such a ripe and thrilling ride for me as a writer uh and I'm eager to see what comes of it like as I've been making things in this time period I made one thing that was like a throwback you know that I was sort of like well this is this is sort of a play that like harkens to the past and now I want to write for the future and I think yeah so I'm really interested in that and I'm also thinking about how do we stage globalization when borders are closed and how do we interact with international artists this platform is one of the few where that can happen so so it's it's bypassing a lot of border controls to be a digital environment and I find that tremendously exciting and also thinking a lot about multilinguality and thinking a lot about uh oral dramaturgy a u r a l um and how that can inflect this medium you mentioned theater of conversation what's that yeah I've been thinking about uh plays that function like conversations with the audience um that the structure of them is um embedded around questions and and room for answers from the audience but also that those answers get incorporated into the text um in a digital platform that might function really well over chat I suppose the chat window uh the but also that the structure of the play resembles a conversation so that it's not that we're following an insensible plot or uh but we're following how a movement of movements of thoughts and how how we can interact so if I'm talking to the audience or if a group of actors is just with the audience that that movement of thought is shared um so yeah so I've been I've been kind of it started actually with a play I made in 20 oh gosh what was it uh 2015 I started working on this play called town hall which was structured a sort of forum theater and and I've we've been I've been working on it ever since and that place sort of has led to other plays so and in fact it was going to have a uh kind of staging workshop staging at the tape modern when COVID hit so uh in association with royal hallway drama so so then we did a like a festival version online uh of it um but I've that's I've been kind of investigating that notion of interactivity that feels um uh that affects how the piece is built uh as well as how it's presented uh I'm just really interested in in how an audience can be empowered uh in a theater experience and and at the same time feel safe uh I think what what happens sometimes in interactivity is that you're like forced to do things and I'm definitely not interested in that but I am interested in spaces that allow for reflection and contemplation which means going against sometimes things that that we know of a structure at least in more conventional settings around uh rising action and so forth it's I'm sort of going against that and I'm also really interested in decentering the human and thinking about how we contend with because you know we're still in climate change you know so I don't know like that hasn't gone away so I feel like uh how do we write work or make work um that is and bring it into being that decenters human actually talks about relationship to the planet and and talks to relationship to humans and animals and insects and water and air and so forth and and and looking at systems that we're a part of and I think that that is something that's a space um that I'm deeply deeply deeply invested and interested in and and want to keep plowing that furrow as it were so you're investigating how writing online that is in an open discourse dialogue conversation with the audience as a democratization of participatory socially engaged art yes have you done this uh have you put one out or sorry have you have you tried things out have you done that or I'm interested I think we tried we tried a little bit with town hall when we did the festival interrupted um version for royal hallway drama uh I'm working on a piece right now how did it go with the audience it was great it was super exciting and um sorry I'm just gonna do my nose again it's not COVID I swear um uh um the um it was great it was uh the students had been working on the play for about a year in the class so so they were dig deep really deeply in it and the faculty person director named Rebecca McCutcheon had been working with me on it for a while so we had done a workshop of it at the Camden People's Theatre in London last summer as part of the Calm Down Dear Festival so so so it was kind of like at the next stage actually in our development with the piece um and and I think I think one of the things that I think we discovered in this interrupted version uh because we couldn't get to do it at the Tate is that um there was the I feel like we needed more space for the audience like I it was sort of interesting because I was like oh actually we need I want to relook at the piece again and think about how we can create more openings uh in the piece for for engagement and reflection uh and more breathing space especially uh so and moments of silence um and moments of ritual so so that's that's kind of fun to be kind of testing it out in different formats uh I think one of the things we also talked about is maybe there's an element of that piece specifically that functions a little bit like breakout rooms so that maybe that's um you know maybe we need as as a group and an initial like the initial scene first scene there's two scenes and then we actually go into breakout rooms with it and then come back I felt like there's something in the energy of that that I'm really excited about um so that's happening and then you know alongside all of this you know sort of being re-energized and reawakened and hopefully uh coming through this it had three world premieres canceled and you know so so I've also been negotiating mentally how to how to deal with work that suddenly has evaporated basically each of them sort of five years of work that have just now like are in limbo uh and so I've been like oh you know that was going to happen that was going to happen that was going to happen now those three things are not going to happen right now uh so as a maker how do I how do I mentally adjust to that and look at these pieces that we're going to premiere that are that I look at now with with forlornment and uh melancholy you know what I mean because then now they're tainted by this experience so I've I've also been just on a personal level dealing with that and trying to figure out um what do you know how do those how will those pieces live again and if so how they're going to live again and and what will that mean you know if we're truly back in some live form in 2021 may or or June what's that going to look like and and how how how are those works going to resonate because they were made they've been building for five years and I've been they were going to premiere this year so and that's it's going to be a different world right so I so I've also been thinking about that to be honest yeah that means uh it's almost like a research and development and it will not see the light of the day like you know and yeah I don't know maybe like I have no idea you know it's like really crazy in the form as you said that it was um consistent with the context changes Joan Baez the great singer said she said you know I sing my song it's the same songs but the context changed I was singing in Woodstock it was something completely different if I said I sing it now and she was funny she said I started out with friends and family then little clubs larger clubs big venues stadiums and then slowly went back from stadiums to larger clubs smaller smaller smaller I'm back to family now and I feel maybe it's a bit uh with theater too but there is something um of course to it how is that moment I mean for the Latinx community where you are a leader where you are an activist where you're someone who has made a real change and gave voice to a movement how is the black life matter that be how how how does it fit in for you what are your thoughts yeah well I think the Latinx community that field I mean we this was a you know it's funny we there was this season uh nationally uh was going to see I think the most premiers of Latinx work around the country and there has been in a long time so and that's suddenly all gone uh some of them that come to my I don't have the full list in front of me but uh you know copper children OSF by Karen Zacarias which is now streaming for for till July 22nd they were able to capture one of the last performance before the shutdown Torera by Monet Hirstman Dosa at Longworth you know is canceled his phone the Kilroy's just put up the whole list of especially work by women um uh you know so there's just been like you know Isaac Coleman I mean it's just so many artists and it feels like you know Brian Herrera at Princeton University talks about the last season of Latinx theater and and this is one of them the last the last season of Latinx theater yeah talk to Brian yeah and he's been making a google doc of of all the plays and all the kind of performance work that was going to basically premiere a lot of them from young early career artists so it's going to get their first shot um which is like really important I think that especially if I can't imagine you know just imagine being a young artist now or a young artist coming out of college and going doing your first big show or doing your first semi-big show and and then their feel shuts down and you're like now right so I feel like finding the faith for especially early career artists right now I think is and mentoring those folks has been really important I think that uh the Black Lives Matter movement and uh has galvanized so much of everyone uh to to re to recalibrate um where where we are and and where in heck are we going and what kind of what kind of field do we want to be in and how can we affect change I feel like the culturally specific organizations um especially in the Latinx theater movement which tend to be smaller budget uh much more precarious in terms of how they can make it through right now if at all um I just worry about them the most and I think most of the our colleagues in the field worry about as well because I feel like it's one thing to say um just as an example you know I think it's one thing to say oh Longworth will probably survive but maybe Milagro theater in Portland Oregon may not do you know what I mean like because of just economics right so but actually Milagro is like one of the few sort of theaters that are doing incredible work in Portland Oregon for the Latinx community and for the national Latinx community so it feels like those venues like Caramilla and Dallas Milagro in Portland um Teatro Visión, Teatro Paraoas there's so many Repertoria in New York you know who's been shut down uh and are streaming thank god some work and and doing readings and so forth but I feel like those organizations are suddenly in uh chokehold uh a little bit about how to move forward and also they don't have the infrastructure to suddenly go digital and suddenly have all the tech and suddenly you know and so it's a little bit like an unmooring and I uh I think there's just a lot of concern and I know but the concern is also like let's save these theaters right let's say let's try to save these theaters that are that have been embedded in community for a long time and have actually been uh supporting Latinx artists for years um sort of sometimes against the tide right so so I think there's a an interesting reckoning with what are our spaces and how do we take care of those spaces and not take them for granted um and lift them up you know so I think you know I feel like the the process of lifting up those spaces has become really important uh in an effort to to try to get them through uh and also you know knowing that we're all looking at systems of inequity and institutional racism that affects across the board and trying to figure out how the structures themselves at the core have to be thought um and I think that the you know conversations that are happening around you know should it be an artistic director model like are there are other models you know there's collectives there's cooperatives there's different ways of running a theater and and I think that it's maybe this is the time you know I hope um for that to occur uh and to kind of rethink how the entire structural models put together um of most of most of the theater companies in the United States um especially so so yes and I think there's also been interesting maybe I would call not side conversations but uh a rethinking around Afro Latinx artists and Afro Latinx voices uh which in the which in the Latinx community I you know have been not as visible you know there has been uh colorism and racism that's been very active in Latinx community so I think that we have to reckon with that and deal with that and um and it's and it's starting to happen thank god you know so but yeah but that's that's becoming sort of slowly at the forefront of conversations and also thinking about funding and thinking about how do we empower Afro Latinx artists and and empower the Afro Latinx identities to make work and um and so you fear also for your community that there will be a lot of the theaters will close artists will leave and then that the community that already has been disadvantaged over centuries once again will carry a burden and will suffer and will not get the same funding the British the well-made British play will get right and or do you have a hope that this moment is as you said pivoting is it's a change something revolves revolutionary something is changing what what is your what is your feeling about this moment my feeling about this moment is uh multifaceted but what I will say to quote Alan Reed uh is we need to evacuate the building just evacuate the building and start working in non-buildings and start thinking about our people and start thinking about the people in our arts uh who are suffering and have have been suffering for a long time in terms of economic and equity a lot of our gig workers as we recall there are freelancers who have no sustainable anything no nets um health care no nets around jobs no nets around anything to actually figure out systems that can um empower us you know whether it be through some sort of as other countries have or starting to have universal basic income for artists um that that is actually a viable thing to fight for uh I think that but I you know it may not be fashionable to think to say evacuate the building but I do think that's sort of the answer the answer because when you're when you're um not tied to the edifice when you're not tied to real estate uh and are looking at the people are what make the art uh it's really looking at how do you sustain the organism the ecology of the humans um that are making the work uh and that are trying to make the work and are developing work and are researching work you know in our sometimes spending 10 years or five years or seven years just developing a project um and I so I think that for me it's about the liberation the revolution is in liberation from uh physical structures actually uh with with no with no dissing of physical structures however beautiful they may be on the other side of my sort of thinking around that is which may seem paradoxical but just hold hold this thought for a moment which is collaborating with architects collaborating with architects to rethink if we're going to make physical structures new physical structures what are they going to look like what's more equitable and maybe this notion of like let's pack them in and let's you know that that's actually not going to be the answer anymore certainly so I feel like we need to rethink what our physical spaces look like uh and how they function uh and new ways of thinking how we make theater um and I think collaborating with architects is one of them so so as there as has happening in you know another country so I feel like so so my two strands are are antithetical but I think we're related one is evacuate the building and if you're going to make another building make a different kind of building uh and the other the other and more foremost out the forefront of all of this is take care of your workforce take care of your cultural workers who are actually doing the deep listening the deep collective listening around culture that are that are through trauma uh and that are that are maybe maybe be our visionaries and maybe the ones that can hold us together uh through all times and so and I feel that really passionately really strongly um so yeah so you use feel the structures we have will not work let's hope no or build new ones yeah I think it's been broken for a long time so I'm not like you know I've said this in print I've said this on books I've you know I've been saying it for you know it's been broken for a very long time and it just needs to like and and I think that and I think small repairs and small bandaid repairs don't work uh they're cosmetic and they're also performative gestures so I think that that actually it's really about you know restructuring everything but are we in a culture that's going to allow for that I'm not sure uh because we're so tied to capitalism so I'm not sure uh so maybe it'll be small things that occur you know what I mean to be small versions of restructuring everything uh and then there'll be things that will always remain the same uh sadly so but it's the nature of it's the nature of the culture we're in so I think it's also acknowledging that we can't overturn capitalist structures overnight and how is the support for you I mean you are you know some the role models in the Latinx community you publish you write you adapt where do you for no passport where does where does the support come from where's what support do you get what for the theater's gap you know Ralph Pena and other where does it come from is there a Latin based community that supports you is it the city is a donors how how is it even even funded oh lord my credit card is helping I'm being funded by my credit card and uh no I mean I've been getting uh I've been you know I've I've personally gotten as an artist uh some COVID relief um through through the Brett Adams Foundation because of my show got canceled in West Virginia and I luckily was was got some money from them and foundation of contemporary art uh has also kindly uh giving me some money to to weather this I've also been the benefactor of you know this is what I mean about artists like Bryony Kimmings in the UK did this thing called Gigade where she single-handedly raised money for artists freelance artists and I was one of them you know so and so I put that back into the work like I've just put that back into like a go hey how can we make these books happen and how can we you know I feel like it just always goes back into the work for me like I don't I don't have like a if there's no profit uh but there is some some month to month sustainability so I feel like yeah and then I've been teaching like resilience you know just personally I've been teaching teaching teaching and and sustaining that way and and grateful for those opportunities uh but yeah I have no idea like what the next six months is going to hold and so I'm just trying to you know hanging on some of those credit cards and hoping for the best and and you know I think the funding structures have also really changed because you know everybody is asking for the same pot right there we don't have subsidy so it's like organizations and individual artists are all asking for the to the same people basically so the same philanthropic organizations to the same foundation so so yeah so it's like and and organizations tend to because of the way our field is structured um tend to to get those to get those requests approved first so um so I think that cuts out the freelancers in a big way uh so I think the people that are remembering that there are freelancers in this field um is really important and maybe we need to create new funding structures for for us that go beyond Kickstarter and go fund me and other crowd sourcing new platforms but uh but yeah but for now it's like uh credit cards and and so those uh those lovely kind of like grants have come through and and I just can't say enough about Brian and Kimming is doing that uh if you haven't had her on our show I mean I just recommend the university of her because what she did with the gate was extraordinary yeah it is stunning thinking how large the population Latina Latina Latin acts is in New York City for example and the languages on the street spoken and how much money gets allocated to the kind of how many stories do we see how many storage do we hear how many story how many artists are represented on the stage it is uh it's shocking and uh and uh and uh indefensible how um it is this money around for the arts but the way it's distributed perhaps he does not does not really goes to the big large institutions who then don't be the host so could be nothing against the big ones but they have to and they should be obliged they will have to go and do their trainings and and open their doors and have a meeting as you say of the creative workforce and then existing structures who perhaps could be could be more more there I know you are if I'm right you are Cuban Argentine Spanish Croatian so you are a no passport artist and you have felt I'm sure in your life and work you know all these invisible walls and structure that are visible to you perhaps not visible to us are you planning something will that be in a no passport um zoom gathering will you will there be what what are you planning if you say yeah the next generation you did already so much I know it's the sea last thing we hosted three years or four years the first conference but how much how long can you really do it but what what's what's on there in the burner at the moment for your community uh in the burner uh no passport specifically just the three books uh right now because you know that's taking up a lot of time the um I did wake up this morning so funny that you asked this I did wake up this morning and I was like we should do like a no like a no passport uh zoom now we can do it right like we have the platform we can do it actually uh and so I've I've been strapped I've been I sort of I'm gonna get on the bandwagon today because you know my my my sort of I get like inspired in the moment and that's how I respond as an artist but um uh I was thinking oh we should do something in the fall so I'm I'm hoping to do something in November uh if I can galvanize enough folks to do a zoom something uh and kind of a zoom conference uh I think that would be really exciting and also we haven't met um in in person but this is sort of faux in person for a long time and so I felt like oh that would be really cool to actually take the temperature uh of the of the 600 and some colleagues but also affiliated colleagues around the world uh to see what we can stir up if anything just to create an open space to listen to each other uh would be really remarkable so so that's something that's on my mind at the moment for November and then um yeah and and then I've just been like because I'm still with climate change the interaction um you know we're still sort of in those conversations uh with Chantal and and the folks there and yeah so it's just been like that those are sort of the immediate things that are coming up as well as my own stuff and getting the film to premiere and you know taking care of like business as it were um but yeah but I'm excited about like doing a conference where we can re-recon re-recon with what was what we're with the building and I'm sure Hall around could be a host and you can see the day when we had the seat to talk I make that decision to come back and we'll support you of course and but this is um you know no I think it's a time where we have to take action and we organize it but yeah you did so much so much and I hope there is an next generation also that will support you and it's inspired by you and put it up so we're coming closer to towards the end of our session what is um what is the um what is the uh twice you would give to to um to artists who um maybe are starting out the ones you say who do not see their play cut cancel it's hard enough for you and but you would see it was your first shot and and uh Latin acts or you know African Latino what what do you what what do you say what should they focus on and on do you say stay in or do you say please really do consider if it's the right thing what is your advice yeah I mean I think it's different for every person in terms of all scope fiscal and health security um or potential security around both of those things uh I feel like it's important to if you believe in this thing you know this this is a humble bit this is a humble field to begin with you know um so I feel like if you still believe in it try to stick it out if you can um try to keep making try to maybe maybe work in different ways maybe it's around doing you know local actions uh you know I've always been interested in you know go to your local laundromat and stage theater that way or leave you know notes by your friends door and that becomes a theater action um so so maybe it's thinking about the artistry in a different way I mean a lot of my students were asking me well what do I do now they were just graduating literally the class of 2020 right and so and they were like we have we can't do anything and I was like well yes you can you have skills you have skills around caring and you have skills around nurturing you have skills around inspiring you have skills around creativity which you can use in different ways and so I feel like maybe that's the time this is the time to to test those skills and um and you know and I say like for people that feel like um you know they can't stick it out uh respect and honor that decision uh you know it's it's the nature of we're in a pandemic you know um but but I hope that I think honoring and trusting the skills that you have that they can be um put to use but also inspire others and maybe and it's thinking really thinking outside of existing I do think it's about thinking outside of the existing structure because if you look at the existing structures um it may feel hopeless but actually you know I'm a big believer in the wilderness so I feel like if you if you believe in the wilderness and if you believe in working from the wilderness um that space can actually free you up uh and and you know you can you can create a revolution that way but it'll be probably outside of public view for a long time um but that's actually important like that St. Louis company you mentioned that is building an old-fashioned wagon and will go through the Ozarks in small towns you think and yes exactly chairs and sit down have a cookout and then with this we'll we'll see a medicine show or something that's right that's what like it happened in the old days so what inspires you at the moment what do you read what you listen to oh heavens I'm reading I'm reading a lot well I'm going to be writing a book uh soon I should be writing it now um for for about theater so so I think I've been like a lot a lot of my reading has revolved around looking at other books in the field and unchiefly reading dark theater by Alan Reed as an inspiration uh which just came out from Rutledge so I feel like it's been my kind of bedside bedside reading as well as work reading um and I've been listening to um a lot of podcasts specifically uh Chris Good in the UK has been doing this podcast it's really interesting around experimental resistant art uh and has been posting almost every day like a piece of impossible uh writer-based resistant art usually poetry and I've been just finding that super inspiring uh to kind of listen to what feels impossible historically um and I've just been reading a lot of a lot of amboyer because I find her immensely inspiring and so going back to garments against women and and also the undying of course but garments against women specifically has been really kind of great to to put back in my consciousness it's making me want to write so I'm so that's a good thing I think yeah that is that is good and what do you is something you listen to or what to how do you spend your day you get up in the morning and you write and eat and write all day no I write in the evening I'm a night owl I write like at three o'clock in the morning so so no my day is like part of it is teaching so I have like a teaching thing in the summer so yeah which is great so with as I'm teaching for at the moment I'm teaching with us by primary stages uh so teaching I get up I have coffee I have lots of coffee lots of coffee uh and then I'm I'm kind of taking notes on the on my book uh and then taking notes in a couple of plays that I want to make because I've just made four of them in a row and uh and I have to make another one for another theater so yeah and then I've just been like you know like talking to a lot of artists and and uh trying to be safe just trying to be safe uh it's health-wise so so I feel like that's been like at the forefront of everything um and listening to I'm listening to a lot of music you know I always listen to music so so for me it's like the it feeds my soul in just the best way and I've just been kind of uh listening to a lot of jazz and and which might sound pretentious but it really isn't and and just kind of like just trying to just trying to find um spaces of peace because the world's so chaotic and and I feel like I need to I think that one of the things that happens in art is that you're as a maker you're there's the reactive mode there's like oh you know I've got to react to what this happened in the world and that happened in the world and that can be like useful it's to a certain degree and at the same time I think it might sometimes get really damaging because you're only in reactive mode as opposed to listening mode so I feel like for me it's like I went through a reactive phase for like two months and now I'm like you know what I need to I need to create a space for myself as as much as I can to just kind of not be in reactive mode only but actually which is hard given this administration politically um but actually be in a space where I'm writing comes from that this listening to your heartbeat it comes from listening to what your body's telling you it comes from listening to what the ground is telling you and trying to make that reconnection so I feel like that's where I'm and music helps me do that so so yeah I find like I reconnect in that way yeah no that's um that's quite something I can can only imagine how a writer in New York City alone and publishing writing and living in that imaginary world and finding a symbolic meaning in in words and scenes and things when comes up and in a way uh in solitude where meanwhile theater is such a collaborative effort but writers often as you pointed out earlier are used to that and there's something we we can learn from them how to how to find answers to this so thank you so much Caridad for giving us a little insight in your world and your thinking and how you experience this moment and and I hope you know that also this time will be for for your community life next community everybody also a shot in the arm that the significance of it will be recognized even stronger that your work life's work will be recognized but also what you fight for and that is perhaps at the moment a bit more on the forefront than it was before and this is a good thing next to all the complications we do experience and we will continue on the CEO talk series you know again next week we will go again around the world and also find out what is happening here in New York we will start with Tony Wack and some of his tap dance friends to see how are they doing is such a great American original art form tap dance a bit undervalued I do think but it's a resurgent worldwide so like jazz as you mentioned it is something that create that came here and it was a choke influences from so many parts and has a significant impact and Deborah Mitchell and I see a gray will will join Tony Wack who runs the tap dance foundation on Tuesday we have a significant writer and director mostly from France is Philippe Cuisniève he is in the Nanterre Amongie theater in Paris it's a great theater a big theater and to hear what is happening there Cuisniève will talk about it in France where things opened up where now you will have to wear mask inside spaces but outside they ended the state of emergency so it's a very very different experience and so they must have done something right Betty Chamier will come and talk to us how her experience is of the you know and US Arab American or American community or American Arab community however one will say that right perhaps tight Jones will join us next we will see it depends as always on on many many things and then Adelheid Rosen from the Netherlands who is a very strong also community activist next to to her work she got from the league of professional men in theater the big award the last one and so it's interesting to hear what is she doing in the neighborhoods in Amsterdam and Melanie Joseph will join her from the foundry and they will talk about how to create socially engaged also political art and so that will be again an interesting interesting lineup and thanks for how around for going with us through another week and we will go through July full time perhaps in August we will slow down a bit at one custom podcast a week and then come back in the fall but it's been a really eye-opening and helped me personally a lot and I can only hope that for our listeners it's also been something in that this is of significance that helps to create meaning to deal with the situation artists are closer to the present they anticipate the future they are on the right side as we always say of social change on the complex struggle for freedom and liberties and they have been always a right and most of the time they're always right anyway so Karidat thank you for joining us and good luck with everything and I hope you we will come out after this and there will be a TAC the time after corona and we have to be prepared for it we have to be ready but we all as you said have to be better and as you pointed out structures do not work my question is do we evacuate the building do we build new ones do we modify what's existing is there something in between we'll see but certainly it is a time of change something significantly significantly has changed but I feel also we are too close we haven't seen yet what already has happened so and there's someone that say about revolutions things have already happened and then they start so thank you Karidat and all my best and thank you all my listeners for listening for taking your time I know how much is going on and more and more is on our minds and so it's a means a great deal to us to have you with us so thank you to our listeners and listen to what our artists said bye bye thank you Karidat bye bye and thanks to Halram Travis and Vijay and see you on the Seagull team Andy and Sonja bye bye