 That is logical, but they do, but my point here is this, to observe the constitution, you as the chief executive of the country must also observe the function of independence of parliament. So stop drawing people, stop trying to draw them with small code even, that's part of respecting the constitution. But at the end of the day, let me come to your last question, we can discuss this further, and of course I know why you asked that question, is the position of leader of opposition a good one? Before the current bipartisan talks, which Nick calls elite consensus, and we will come back to that, but Nick said that there was a deal that was made, when I was chair of the first team, I didn't know of a deal, maybe Omar will tell us if there is a deal, I will be listening to whatever there is, but that is one of the issues we were to deal with, we never got there. My own view, and this is not my party's view, about the leader of opposition discussion, the idea sounds to me, because the idea is to say why Kennedy is always divided into half, so one half gets the presidency and therefore all those appointees, the other half feels left out. So it might unify the country if the leader of the other half is brought into parliament and given some formal recognition, that sounds good. First, but it's not the only model, personally if you ask me, a model to unify the country would not be to bring one person into parliament, it would be a model, more like the one than model that they have, whereby constitutional provision, there is a certain percentage of people that must go to what is the opposition, the proper opposition, not those who are brought in. That way then there is some sort of inclusion, whatever percentage you can talk about. Now my problem with the debate as it is, now it's quite sharp, people start by saying we need a leader of opposition, you cannot debate the issue of leader of opposition unless you address the system of government. We adopted a presidential system, that system is inherently inconsistent with the leader of opposition in parliament. So you must then decide, do we want a presidential system as we adopted? Do we want a parliamentary system as we propose in the government of Russia? Or do we want to start going hybrid? And we went in 1963 and ended up the number two. The discussion must go further and ask ourselves that. So if one person has come in, what does that do to the whole system? We already have a leader of minority and a leader of majority. So do you then bring the prime minister to the government side? Because that's the only way that it can make sense as an equal to the leader of opposition. Or do you have a leader of opposition whose equal is a link? You know, it doesn't make any trade. It's the personal way in which we view this. Everyone who talks of leader of opposition does not think of that position, they think of individual that is wrong. Okay. The long-term plan that we ought to be having other than the personalities that we focus on. Caroline, coming to you then. How can the system of oversight, fleshing out these issues of what can your staff as a budget aircraft? Just on the deep political matters, Hassan and I are well equipped to command them. Not only because we're in the trenches for decades, but we're also in that political space. So there are two things Hassan cannot get away with. One, Afan says that as a regime, they are committed to a strong opposition. And if they separate, he says there's nothing wrong with MPs elected in the opposition going to bear some to speak with the government side, which means weakening the opposition. That's why it's consistent. Either you're committed to a strong opposition, leave those elected in opposition to be there, and if anyone wants to cross, let them get a freshman there. Now that's what the law expects. Secondly, the idea of the leader of opposition, and it's good that Hassan gives an example of Mombasa. Look Hassan, you are the deputy leader of the party. So if you were to take the position of the leader of opposition, then you would be going to sit in Mombasa County as the deputy leader of minority. What cloud does that give you? That doesn't give you any more cloud. It would probably give you some cloud if the constitution say whoever is the runner up in the county government election is entitled to appoint 30% of the cabinet position. Then you can be powerful because you don't even have to be there, but the constitution allows you. That's what I meant. Now in terms of what you've just spoken to, I admit, and I started by admitting this, I admitted that we are a weak parliament and we are weak because the executive is in the business of weakening parliament. Let me tell you, as a member of parliament now for the second time, when I came in, I theoretically thought that parliament can be very effective, that you can go there and you debate and what you say is listened to and even 300 people vote along that line. That's nonsense. I am telling you, you will go there with all your points. You know, even from a point of lonely, you will speak and people will be quiet and you expect the guys either those supporting you or opposing you, you know, they will turn the speaker, put the question. Once that question is put, you are defeated. With all your logic, it is irrelevant. So you will go there and point out all those things you are saying that look, the controller says this is not there, this is not there, but the previous day, Hassan and his team are called all their members and those who ran away from us to states and told them, pass that budget without changing our format, they will pass it. What can you do? You will just go and cry in the TV and in your village and you will verify that you are defeated. So I agree with the controller of budget that there is budget corruption. Now, my last point on it, if this regime was committed to eradication of corruption, you cannot have a whole control of budget coming on TV and demonstrating budget corruption and everyone around the executive is quiet, not the president, not any good, not even Hassan Obama's comment on that. You know, because they know it is the truth. There is a difference in fact between corruption and integrity. Corruption is a criminal offense, okay, where you have acquired something and it can be demonstrated and you can be convicted. But integrity is a much lower pressure. If today, tomorrow, you learn that I now want this hotel and you know I don't have the capacity but you can't prove I am guilty. If I was a cabinet secretary, you should fire me on integrity and you don't need any of this permission. So I agree with Hassan, for example, when he says some of the cabinet members are getting back so why have they not been fired? You just need a pen and a side, you are fired. They can't do anywhere. They tolerate corruption, that is the problem. Okay, Caroline, I am coming to you. And that is a very important question. On the whole, what you know, I am more just in the council. Basically, it is a submission, it sums up the lamentations of a broken nation. Yet Parliament is so powerful that it will impeach the president itself. I mean, even in case of declaring war. The idea of power was a lot of consistent speeches that the president and the team have had a very consultative way in which they govern their politics around parliamentary groups. We defeated what we had in Laila, and we combined with the system in parliamentary groups. So we are likely to serve the country better. We are able to build consensus around the part of the agenda because part of these things that the president goes to ask, it is not about wearing on the constitution, it is about the U.N.C., one man or three or another. So I think it is legitimate. In fact, there are very few, there are very few tutorials. It is a departure. Even we are trying to destruct our party, except we are a party leader. We cannot steeple the party. We are constantly trying to make the best practices that we see on a day-to-day basis. On a second note, politicians by nature, I mean that's the case. I'm not personally working. And politicians, like every member of society, are informed by the company, too. Sometimes I try to moderate my knowledge of the basis that I look at my friends and say, I know these friends will ask me personally, but if you don't have those types of friends, that's why they say the kind of things they do because they try to impress their village. And sometimes, I can talk as a because I decided to remain in politics in utter free will. So that some of these politicians feel very entitled to be told. I don't think, and I can state here in doubt, that the things that Korea says is justified because just because you are cabinet secretary doesn't give you the entitlement to respond and talk to people in a manner most frequently said to me. And I think we will call them out. Other people just the other day were discussing it in the Senate. I think this is not anybody's mother except the kind of people who are the bearer of the social media in this country. So I think some of these things must not be taken to be an official position of government. They are no less as much as they are no more. Sometimes I hit the roof and then some of them are so afraid you see them the next day and you feel like punching them. You just realize your life is a different. So please don't take what they say as an official conduct of government. They are those who are really trying to keep the government in focus. So the last one. I know this time I was running in an ODM stronghold and I we started the election thinking that we will not win Mombasa count. That's what exactly happened. But the margin of loss was so narrow that no time has Mombasa or a position candidate to ODM Mombasa lost that kind of path much. So if you talk about winner take hold I also see it myself was a day to day basis. When I see the government just put in a couple of thousand votes talking every other day and he owns everything. So even when you go to Mombasa government is conscious that our lead our ability to against the position was narrow. It was brought one of the narrow switch we had in a very transparent election. We admit the fact that it was narrow but it was not so narrow. It was 1231 thousand votes. We avoided around 139 thousand votes. We are very conscious of that fact. But then what we think is that we need to institutionalize that office to ensure that that person is given the tools and the capacity to prepare for the next election and to be able to own it for money to hold government to count. Like when you see right now everybody is running in their own trail half of Jubilee or more than half of Jubilee is with us now. I'm not having a mission now. But it is important to continue to be in a strong position so that we can be able to hold it down. It might not even be about introducing the leader of the official position. It might just be about tweaking the current position. Nick and I sit in the technical part of the dialogue committee and I'm in the membership part of the dialogue committee. Some of us our proposal is very simple. We believe nothing in the constitution stops a presidential candidate from running for either national assembly or senate position. So we are saying every presidential candidate part of the proposal can be allowed in these two seats. And in the event you win the presidency then you resign one that is the national assembly of the senate in the event you don't win and you win the senate then or the national assembly then you become the leader of the majority of the minority depending on your party strength in parliament or in the senate so that then you can continue to run a progressive agenda of holding the government to account of building and fortifying your next election because once one day Rayela I think told me something very profound of the 2013 election he told me if you want to go a bad person in the good one look at the person who enjoys some relative power can't just show yourself after an election because I saw all these people running around against him at that time and he told me this is the character so it is important but also foundation that is my last point among universities look at all political parties beyond being just fair person political competition from season to season you expect people to be aligned to you yet we know you hope your party just to empower you believe members were elected because they thought they were well to be the next government as a meal now if you are not a government then look for the one who is a government you are not built on any ideology you are not built on any foundation no belief structure it is not that the world said democratic culture based on social democracy the foundation of an equal and just equitable government they are just saying they are well to be and they are well to be as a meal fortunately we beat them so there are people who are trying to because they are looking for government they are not moving to any ideology so foundation we must prepare the politics of our country rather than trying to okay two key follow up questions before you go to Nick you talked about I mean embodying the office of the opposition leader let's get to the practicals right now Dinka came second in the presidential elections in August last year everyone what would Dinka assume is the official opposition leader's office achieve that the current minority leader beyond I wouldn't and you have talked about the question of oversight by parliament we know two important and very critical committees are a reserve of the opposition the public investments committee and the public accounts committee to look into the books of government I mean why do you need an individual other than OPO and I with the minority leader the constitution guarantees yet two very influential parliamentary committees to create an office for the runners of the presidential elections a political personality basis OPO and I and I don't think it's like happens in our business that's our political plans and that's the mere fact that if I don't think I was in parliament in the position of OPO and I I'm expected to better I'm not saying you think that but there is a way in which you can rally your troops in a more effective way political planning just matters it has a convenient power and a valid power the lighter the politicians the more the less effective so OPO and I feature in the order of being elected from the cloud of rallying of things so the rallying of things are definitely the people's practical examinations it would be a bit because if you remove it's not going to be easy to get a personality like rallying and home quiet again so if you remove the passing of the rallying of things as OPO and I tell you what I said then that leader who has just lost the election with a lot of legitimacy of probably 50% of the people slightly shy of 50% of the country based on the fact that he is now preparing for the next election he's more likely to rally behind an agenda that would make him as a suitable alternative to the next presidency rather than we are dying he's probably just going to be fairly seated I mean not so you see you are looking at a good MP and yet you are looking at a presidential candidate so if I lost today let's say I had some winner not taking a vote for President Obama I would be preparing for a no-slot again of governorship whereas the MCA who won with me is likely just to be confined to the peripherals of this public office the world so I think it has a certain element that when a person has the legitimacy of vote then he or she has more political power who erases the nomination or their support to it as we see in this situation you see up here in the Ammono in fact I think the Ammono chair is even a more senior agency but up here in the Ammono running around by nothing is more natural to ask him to run around up here and die and up here and die takes instructions to write up here rather than up here and die just competing for the presidential thing for the question of is there something in the thing you don't do then you think up here or die just appears in the national assembly and say I must up here or die just by again no okay let's really one more question here because I need to collect that but what you appreciate we are all mortal that we need to create institutions and not look at personalities on the question of institutionalizing policies and ideologies in political parties I mean very stressing because look in September 2016 Uhuru, Kenyatta and William told the Kenyan people that on the 9th of September in 2016 that they are forming a political party, what did you believe about it pulling up more than 10 parties and this also meant to what they say ethnic localization how a political party system where that does not require your tribal or ethnicity belonging to Asia but in the next election we are seeing this enfranchisement we talk about it in its own way what is its own way what is the assurance and the guarantee that you would give us because the jubilee party went to the extent of copying from the communist party in China in 2016 the communist party's more than 90 million members survived for more than 100 years I mean in existence for more than decades as the UDA party what are the guarantees on their shortness as you give the Kenyan people beyond the customaryism that this is a party that will outlive you the members of the Senate you see when we came you know actually I joined the William Bruto last night fratality on the invitation that the jubilee elections were around the corner and I was going to contest the secretary general against so Mulkomen and other materials came to it and said you know to choose a little value we rather focus on the coast we open the mouth of the jubilee that's what we talk all the time so that's how we as the secretary general we have a lot of work so I decided to come just around the same time as when Mulkomen struck so they then the COVID coalition started to manifest itself and what they did was to weed out those people who are secretary pro-william Bruto so we were let into the party that all the William Bruto allies were being planned to be out of the party out of elementary positions so if you look at a part of the scenario we have three options one to vote Jaguz was the takeover of the jubilee party because we created large structures around the country and might as several parties remember once the president visited the jubilee headquarters the next day we went there that was an attempt to take back the jubilee party when that failed our second attempt was to reprun a party that was already existing so we took PDR which we then reprun into UDA because the PDR is one of the opinion parties that had run that election of 2017 with jubilee and the last one was to register a new party which was definitely not was on account but we did not get there right now we are asking him and some of our partners like me to get to the UDNC to see whether they can define it in their heart to tell you to UDN so we are actually trying to build a very pro-national party but we just don't want ourselves to be symbols of visit and because you try to show that there's our navy then there's a vice chair who looks like a Swahili then there's a secretary general who looks like Luya so we want to build a party but it's truly organic so we are trying to do this first phase in fact if you see the high-octane UDN activities it's only at what building a party that outlasts or leaves to be a religious presidency so that it can be a vehicle or younger leaders when you look at the relatively usefulness of UDN just to finish on this point when you look at the relatively usefulness of UDN it can actually, if we do the 10-year transition we can produce a new generation of leaders thank you I think this question was we have a good constitution but there's insufficient or insufficient implementation the first intervention point is at the ballot point and it's all the way from the MCA to the president you must be prepared to chew what you bite if you elect Trump then just cry yes, or recall the second point is in litigation they say Kenyans are probably the most litigious lot in the 2010 constitution outside of the United States and some people have actually come to say that means the constitution is bad because we need to get too much I think that's a very good thing we need to get much more and we need a judiciary that is much more robust because that's the only way to force people to good manners that require the constitution the last one I think is activism activism whether it's on the streets but leave it more on social media