 Hi, welcome to New Slick once again and it's been long since we did a series on the Central Vista. In fact, we started the series when the Central Vista was being conceived, planned and then even in its early phase of execution. And then the matter went to the court and the court finally stamped the Supreme Court said, no, the Central Vista must go ahead. And as the pandemic struck and as the miseries of the people were below, we could find I mean, when projects of great eminence were put to halt. And it was said that since it's a lockdown and people's lives matter more than anything else. But we found that our Central Government made the Central Vista project work as a national emergency. So it is more emergent than you know what we are witnessing more emergent than providing oxygen than providing beds, then mitigating the disaster of the pandemic that we are witnessing. And all of a sudden we are finding the Central Vista has once again popped up. I think it's a serious, serious, very serious issue, the way our Central Government is handling the pandemic, and the way actually the money is being doled out to construct the Central Vista which consists of a palatial mansion for the Prime Minister, underground tunnels, the bunkers and whatnot, and of course a new parliament which we discussed in our earlier series that maybe we do not require that building at all. So but you know it's a question of an era and any authoritarian or fascist leader would always like to have an imprint on the history you know the era that talks about. Without going into more details, I mean, it's good to have Dr. Bobby Lutz-Rassina who has been a very vocal enthusiast since the beginning but also in the recent times and has been raising her voice against the Central Vista and the reasons for that. And she's also done work in South Africa, apart from being a social anthropologist, she's a political economist and is engaged into community driven alternatives and community driven programs. So welcome, Bobby, I think if that is fine as an introduction, so we can go ahead. So we just, you know, because our viewers, maybe because we are starting it new, actually have a tinge and an idea of, you know, what the Central Vista is all about. But I mean, why, why this opposition now when even the Supreme Court has said look, I mean it has to go ahead but again we find the petition went back to the Supreme Court and it was marked with a high court. So I mean, what is your take in it and why actually it must be opposed at this juncture. What I really think what has happened right now is that there is an extraordinary circumstance which has hit us and our lives and as you rightly pointed out it's the pandemic. In this pandemic, while the first stage realities in the first phase the realities for India were very different and the needs in the second phase what we see is that once again the realities have really hit us hard on the face, and most of them are indicating not only a scarcity of resources, but they're indicating, you know, a lack of will on the part of our political and elected representatives to take on the leadership and and divert much needed funds and resources into pandemic management. So the Central Vista therefore stands out because not only is it an architectural, it's not an architectural protest now that one sees against the Central Vista. The protest is all about a humanitarian welfare and we as Delhiites and also a network of independent minded citizens see that the government has a great opportunity to correct all that has gone wrong in the pandemic management by diverting the precious resources from Central Vista into humanitarian welfare and that perhaps will be a better memory for all of us, not just the government, but for all of us. So this is one of the reasons, but there are many others which I would like to discuss with you. Yeah, please go ahead. If you could bring in your experiences of South Africa, you know where you've worked extensively. Yes, of course, I've worked in South Africa for I've done my postdoc as a comparative doctorate as well as postdoc as a comparative study between India and South Africa. Parallel between what is happening here and actually, you know, so what I can say is that in South Africa post apartheid when everybody thought that you know now we have the government. We have our own government. Now there is no racism. There won't be any racism, and there'll be a lot of focus on social social welfare. That's what not happened because the government faltered in the delivery of goods and services. And I think in Indian democracy, we witness the same crisis, the government. And what does that mean? Well, the delivery of goods and services would mean that right from economic to social to political welfare. We don't see that happening. And, and specifically now if we link it to the pandemic time it could be, you know, health. For instance, imagine the kind of lack, the kind of lack and lapses that we have in healthcare. India, which is proud of so many achievements, and this relates to all political parties and leaders, we are proud of so many achievements. But what have we done on our public and private health. And today the crisis is there for not only us Indians to experience and live with, but for the whole world to see. And this is one essential, let us say in health, you have the delivery of goods, as well as you have the delivery of services, you know, so services could be as simple during pandemic time as an ambulance. You must have heard what the cities have witnessed when there is a black marketing on ambulance service. So why cannot our governments. I've seen black marketing in March the service. In, in mortuary service. Yes, so this is 35,000 rupees just to hold the body for a night in a mortuary van anyway please go ahead sorry just to know that's a good point that you've made and it is really a sort of heart wrenching, you know to witness this in the middle of the pandemic when already families have been, you know, undergoing unforeseen hard times, not only in India but all over the world. So the delivery of service can could have been at least regulated. Why should anybody black marketer this essential service. And secondly, let's look at the goods, look at what's happening to oxygen cylinders. So basically what you're saying is instead of, you know, putting this money into central Vista, this money should have been utilized for n number of activities, or n number of services that could have been provided during the pandemic is it. Exactly. This is what I'm saying that you know, of course, that there is a chance that this government can still correct the last battle. This pandemic second phase is, you know, proving up very taxing proving to be very taxing and therefore what we need is immediate relief. Relief after two years is not going to matter relief. And I can tell you why it is important to listen to us right now, because this is what our own government has done. They have invited, not only they have invited community participation to mitigate the ill effects of the pandemic. And these two letters are very important, you know, they've been issued in May itself. So you can look at the need the IO websites and you can look at the, you know, national disaster management authorities and you know their websites have released these letters, saying that we invite community participation because the realities in the second phase have been very dire. And without community participation NGOs, it will not go away. And this also this, there is a window for all of us to speak as a collective force. And I can hear bring bring on my work on Latin America. I've also lived just like as I've lived in South Africa I've lived in Argentina. So in Argentina. In one of during one of the more worst human rights crisis that that country faced the mother's combined the mother's combined to make a movement and said that we want the welfare of our children. So, so cultures and countries all over the world, they tell us how important it is to listen to communities and community and let community participation happen, specifically at very tough times. You know, and this is one of the most toughest times that we are witnessing perhaps post independence. We don't have the health infrastructure, we, we, and we also have the, we don't have the health infrastructure to cater to mitigating this pandemic. And let's learn from other countries, for instance, in Argentina when the mothers they were called the mother they the mother is the major when that moment arose, they were able to bring about a focus on the dwindling human rights of that country. So when mothers, when mothers and others who care for well being from community NGOs when they talk, they're talking about the national wealth, preserving national heritage is a national well being. So where is the, where is the conflict. We are very much with the government. We want to understand and take the need to I owe you know, orders forward, we want to help in but please listen to us, listen to us. What does that mean, you know, because I remember you've been raising this voice that once the central, let's, let's get back to the central vista, and you know the kind of construction that we are witnessing, and even during the pandemic, you find the workers being ferried, I mean, I mean, keeping I mean risking their lives. Well, that's one part of the story, but at the same time do not do you not think I mean, daily which is one of the most polluted cities of the world, and the kind of construction that we're witnessing and the green cover which is systematically being eroded, especially you know that stretch that you that move along the range but so do you not think I mean it's really a new Holocaust that is that has been prepared and plan. And of course I think and it's not just me the whole, the whole system has shown us that there are empathetic and sympathetic and concerned voices rising the Alabad High Court has said that this is no less than a genocide that people are dying out of lack of out of lack of oxygen. So, you know the courts, the legal experts, the environmental experts are telling us something and let's shift to what the environmental experts are telling us now, and one of the main concerns that we are picking up is also related to for instance, we know that deliites have had a very compromised pulmonary health system because of the choked air over here, the air quality is terrible, and we have dwindling water resources. You know, our earlier water resources have disappeared and we are not doing anything to resuscitate them on top of that during this pandemic, which attacks the pulmonary system, which makes the people succumb to not only ongoing pulmonary pulmonary vulnerabilities but brings them on newer vulnerabilities and takes up and consumes their lungs. Why are we building this project just right now? We need all the oxygen. We need all this oxygen and we need clean and fresh air besides our children are born and they grow up with compromised lungs. This is a recorded fact in deli. The doctors and the medical fraternity have been saying that and these are documented proofs. So, what I want to tell you is that this second stage is already so severe that it has attacked us unprepared. Imagine what is going to be the third because Lancet and various other studies, even our own medical fraternity has predicted that there is going to be a second stage which is going to severely affect our children. Imagine these children who are already born with various asthmatic and lungs related diseases and disorders. Will they be able to sustain? And what are the mothers going to do? We mothers and of course fathers, we people, Indian communities and other communities in the world, we give so much for our family. So this is a plea for the government of India to listen to us right now. We are ready to participate in rebuilding. In fact, I have so many messages on my phones and even in networks where people are saying we are supporting our domestic workers, whatever stuff we have, even though we are going huge financial difficulties, which is proven by the fact that in April itself this year, 34 lakh people became unemployed. They've lost the jobs, but still everybody spending their last penny to support people all around. And there is no reason why the government of India should then turn their back on us and our welfare. What was the last word? I mean, I remember in one of your conversations you mentioned that if Delhi wins, India wins. If Delhi loses, India will lose the battle. And that was in reference to the construction of the Central Vista. Can you substantiate that? Yes. What I really want to say is that this time, just as the circumstantial reality in the background of the protest against Vista has changed. I want to point out that, you know, now the people who are protesting against Central Vista and throw the diversion of funds to the pandemic management, they're also saying that, you know, save Delhi's air and water, because this time, Delhi's interest, national interest is not just PM versus CM. This question of national interest is directly related to the country's interest. They're worth the funds for the dying Indians. We cannot sustain these horrible, yeah, so sustain this. So if you save Delhi's air and water now, you will be saving India's air and water and be giving the people to have a better life, survival opportunity during this pandemic. Well, thank you. I think that was lovely speaking to you. When India is burning and burning, we can see our new Nero in India is actually building the Palasheet mansion and the Central Vista. This can't go wrong. It's a basic contradiction. Thank you so much.