 Welcome to this World Space Week event. Women in Australia's space industry, brought to you by the Australian National University and its Institute for Space or ANU in space team. It's all part of a series of fantastic virtual events that they're bringing you over the next two weeks in honour of World Space Week. My name is Natasha Mitchell. I am a science journalist and presenter of Science Fiction at ABC Radio National. I'm part of the ABC Science Team. I am so thrilled to be here for the next hour with this fantastic panel. I also would like to acknowledge that we are on Aboriginal land. In my case, it's the land of the Rwandan people of the Kulin nation. They have maintained a sophisticated relationship with the wider cosmos and our planets place in it. For millennia before this present moment, it's something to embrace and cherish and celebrate. ANU in space, your hosts for this event, it's all about research, innovation and collaboration focused on as the team describes it, supercharging Australia's space capability. It brings together leaders in research and space. Now that means people in all sorts of roles, in all sorts of professions, as many of you who are joining us now for this special Zoom event know all too well if you're part of the space industry. It means people in roles like the legal profession, in business, in science, yes, in engineering, in policy, in security, in government. You all need, we all need all hands on deck for a space industry. And we especially need women and more women at that because less than a fifth of Australia's workers qualified in science and technology disciplines are women, less than a fifth. It's a mighty fifth, but we wanna see more of you. The rapidly growing space industry in Australia needs and wants more women driving the agenda. Now why would that be? Well, my feeling is that because science and technology needs to serve all people. And so therefore we need all people involved in making it happen. We need people with diverse perspectives. We need people with different experiences of life. So joining us to discuss how we can make all this happen and what it's been like for them, they're bright shining stars in their careers for women letting the way. And we are looking forward to your questions in this event too. So in the last third of the hour, we wanna come to your questions, but if you could get them posting right away as things come to mind, we really wanna hear from you. So just post them in the Q&A function of the Zoom. So we have joining us, Professor Anna Moore. She's Director of ANU in Space as well as Director of the Advanced Instrumentation and Technology Centre, which is home of the National Space Test Facility at ANU Mount Stromlo Observatory. She came to ANU after a distinguished research career, which continues, I might add, but she was at Keltyk for many years and other astronomy institutes around the world. Great to have you with us and hosting us. Aud Binyel is the Executive Director of Program and Capability of the Australian Space Agency. Now they've been around for two years and they're kicking a punch. So she's involved in many roles, but predominantly scoping and managing the agency's space programs. Huge role domestically and internationally. Great to have you, Aud. We have Flavia Tata Nardini began her career at the European Space Agency as a propulsion test engineer. She co-founded Fleet one way or another. She came to Australia. She co-founded Fleet. They're a space company based in South Australia. They founded five years ago and in 2018 they launched Australia's first four commercial nano satellites with more to come. And we also have Michelle Gilmore. She's Director of Communications at Gilmore Space Technology. She's also an Australian space company developing hybrid rockets that will launch small satellites to space. 2022 is a big date for them. And she came to setting up a, or helping set up a rocket company via banking as you do as a Senior Vice President of the Global Bank in Asia. So fantastic. Let's give them a warm welcome. We can't hear you clapping, but I know you're out there. But I reckon we should clap because we had a Nobel Laureate overnight in the space industry, in astronomy. Andrea Gez from UCLA won the Nobel Prize for Physics number four in the number of women who have won a Nobel Prize. Let's give her a cheer. Woo! Hey! I like that. I was reflecting on something that she said and I was curious to start with these comments from her and get your reflections on them. Andrea said in an interview overnight, I've had a chance to think about, and I should just point out that Andrea was involved in key black hole research. And you can all talk about more on that as we go. But she said last night, I've had a chance to think about the question of diversity. And one of the things that I think can be an asset is not being part of the majority. It gives you an opportunity to do something new that's new and different. It's often hard to do things that are different. And if you're already different, well, you have that opportunity. As long as you have the confidence to do the things that are indeed different. So I'm curious, based on your own careers, and she's speaking, I guess, as a woman in astronomy, whether that resonates with you. Anna? Yeah, thank you. So I'd like to acknowledge the none of all people. I'm here in Canberra. So I know Andrea very well. She's a good friend. I'm also an astronomer by trade. And she's just an amazing person. And no, I think those comments do resonate. I think there are negatives to go with it, unfortunately. I think you've got to be a lot tougher and harder when you're a minority in something. You've just got to keep going. But I do like her take on that. And I like her take on the fact that when you are a minority, when you are different that way, you can sort of look at things a little bit differently, I suppose, and keep going with it and having the strength to be able to keep pushing it. And she did just win a Nobel Prize. So I think she's got the luxury to be able to say that and mean it and show that she believes in that. So yeah, my quick story I have about Andrea though is that when I went for my faculty interview, I was my first one, I was five months pregnant and a little nervous. And she, it was a predominantly male sort of department. And she came up to me and fixed my collar. My collar was all wonky before the interview. And she came up, she fixed my collar. And it was a really sweet thing to do. And I never forgot it. This is years ago now and I never forgot it. So she's not just a brilliant person on the app. I didn't want she's achieved. She's also amazing person on the inside too. That's a beautiful moment to relay. But we might come back to that point about going for a faculty position when you're five months pregnant. I've heard many other women scientists talk about that experience and the sorts of conversations they end up catapulting into. And also that point that you made about just keep going. I'm interested in that too and those moments and when you've got to just keep going. Aud, what about you and your reflections on Andrea and Nobel Laureates comments? I like the diversity comment. And I'm coming from the old space where really there was not a lot of women around which is to change being in Australia in the Australian Space Agency. Well, there is so many women around and it's so refreshing. But back then, yes, you have to push more. You have to prove more. So you have to be resilient, that's for sure. But there was one thing that I noticed is people remember you more and they know who you are more. And that sometimes can be useful when you have a point to make and something to push across. And so it's not all negative. There are sometimes some advantage. Now it's my accent that makes people remember me. So there is always something different. But diversity is key in everything we do. You need to have so many different point of views to make bigger things and space is a big thing to make. And the more diverse people we have working together the bigger things we can achieve. So it's not only being a woman, it's being different in general. Diversity needs to be cultivated, definitely. And diversity in every way. Diversity of accent, of language, of life experience, of economic background, of education background. I mean, gender is only one part of this diversity conversation, isn't it? Absolutely. Well, I was interested in the point that you said about having to prove yourself. We might come back to that. Michelle, what about you and your reflections on Andrea's comment about, well, when you're different to begin with, perhaps you can take risks. I think that's a provocative statement because it could go either way, couldn't it? I think, look, if you're talking about being innovative, being innovative is about thinking and doing something that's different. So, you know, you need diversity to have innovation. For example, for our company, for example, our founders are actually not engineers. And we looked at a problem that was very common in the engineering and rocket world, hybrid propulsion. Like, you know, everyone's been there and done that. And here we are looking at it from a different angle, right? From actually no engineering background, which was probably a blessing in disguise. And just looked at things and said, look, there's opportunity here, there, have we tried this, have we not tried that? And because we didn't know any better, we did things differently, right? So that was a different perspective. That's the diversity from being outside the industry. And it's the same thing for women. I mean, you know, if you think of everybody being in a bell curve, right? If you only have men, you're only looking at 50% of the population, you're only getting the best from that 50% of the population. What about the other 50%, right? You're totally, you know, missing out on that end of it. So, yeah, I think being different is a requirement for being innovative. I'm curious, before I come to you, Flavia, what was it that pulled you then as a group of people with no engineering background into setting up a rocket making startup? Do you mean Flavia? Michelle, no, Michelle. Said it again, I thought you speak. Well, I'm curious that you had no engineering background and all of you were setting up the business to invent rocket launchers, basically, had no engineering background. What was the pull? Well, I was not the founder of the company, my husband, Adam. That's how I ended up here. Adam is the founder and he doesn't believe that he can't do anything. He believes he can do anything. So he looked at the problem and he did some research and it was as simple as why haven't we tried that? I'm going to try that. And when it worked, he was like, well, I'm onto something and no one's doing this. Why can't I do this? And we just put our money into it and we were fortunate enough to be able to do that. We developed the idea and then when it kind of took off, literally, we just committed to it. That's as simple as it is, actually. But something was ignited in you, too, so to speak. So many puns about rockets. But anyway, Flavia, what about you and your reflection on Andrea's thoughts about being different in a field where there aren't many other women? You know, in my case, it's not just about space. It's also about being a founder of a startup. In our words, there are different levels of which women are not involved, like founder of a startup is very rare to be a woman and the numbers pretty low. Then you've got founders of a tech startup and then you've got a space tech startup. So it's just the chance of every women just decreasing in every of the sectors. I know few founders and CEO of space tech startups around the world, they're getting more, but I can probably count them on my two hands. So we're talking about like 10 people, seven around the world, it is a tiny number. And it's very fascinating. 10 women or 10 people, 10 women. And women, there's co-founders CEO of space tech startups. It's tiny. What I always loved. And you know every single one of them. Of course, like, you know, just like, it's us. But there was one study stage that I always love and this is like, because I agree with everything that the other says and it's fantastic. But if you look at the numbers of founders of startups, okay, the numbers of women is low, is low. It's like low 20% or even less, probably less. But what always found fascinating is that women that actually do co-found companies and startups, those startups have got a bigger chance to make it. So the studies actually say that startups led by women and founded by women have got bigger chance to make it. That I found fascinating. Okay. And I've been reflecting on it for years. And I don't think I do have an answer. I actually think it counts. And I'm gonna be a little bit politically correct. So, you know, stay with me. I think it comes from the fact that it's very similar when you run a company to the concept of who applies when you put a vacancy out, who applies for a vacancy when you've got a position. Women just do things where they feel very prepared. And men do it anyway, even if they're not capable of. Okay. And it's just an instinct that I don't know. Like we just wanna be perfect in the things we do. I noticed when I hired people at fleets, you know, they, you got vacancies and then people don't apply because women wants to meet all the criteria is in our spirit to actually have it. We wanna have it prepared. This is something you've noticed this. When you advertise for jobs at fleets, space technologies, you notice- Oh, that's huge. And I actually think it's the same concept, a large scale for a startup, you know, co-founder. You know, when I started realizing that women do not apply as much, I decreased the way you were right. I changed the way you write vacancies. So, you keep them very broad, very broad, not specific. So, you attract more women. So, it's fascinating. And more women start to apply. So, if you look at startup world, why those are successful? Because I think that women, you know, they need to go through, can I do it? I'm a well-equipped, you know, there's all this, like, trade-off preparation. But when they do the jump, they know what they're gonna do and they're gonna make it happen. I can see- Oh, that is so interesting. Yes. What do you think? Have you seen stuff similar? Yeah, I can see an shaking your head as well. And I'm the same when you see an ad, you're like, oh, this is not for me. I'm not able to do this. That's the first thing that comes to our mind. When, yeah, a male colleague would say, I'm gonna go for this, even if I'm not qualified. And at the end of the day, what do you risk in going to an interview until you have a choice to make if you have the job or not? But our first reaction is always, am I really qualified to do this? And we have to stop having this attitude of thinking, this is probably not for me. This is probably the biggest barrier we have women. And I've seen stuff like what you said, people ranging the way they are putting ads because they are words that are scaring women. And if they remove these words and choose another one, much more women are applying. So it is really something, can we fight this? I don't know, but we have to accept that. I think you can. You can keep yourself in there. You can fight it, but I always wonder, Natasha, to answer your question, why is really that? Why women don't just jump at things? And I think it's powerful. It's powerful because for us, it's not gender, it's preparation. If we are good at things, we're going to do them. And I think that's all, that's all, right? Very interesting. Anna, you've been nodding your head and raising your eyebrows and grinning all the way through this. And I think we've got to something. I mean, we've gone pretty deep really fast. Here I was one of your foundation stories and I just think that you've got right to the heart of a really significant issue that a lot of us women in technological roles, we are perfectionists. And sometimes we can hold ourselves back, but it's not just about women. It's about the systems that we entered too. And I'm really struck by the fact that as young girls, there's plenty of sprucing that goes on to get young girls into the sciences and the technological sectors, engineering, maths, medicine. There's plenty of marketing and promoting and pushing girls through, but it's as much about the culture that they land in. You can pull them in, but then what's the environment? What's the culture? What's the work environment that they're landing in? Do they see themselves reflected back at them? And Anna, I'm wondering about your reflections of that, particularly as your parent, a number of you in the panel here are parents. I think that's three of you. You know, this is an interesting conversation to have, isn't it? Push the girls in and then what do they find? Yeah, so I'm a director of two institutes, because one's not enough. But one of them has a historical low number of women in the institute. The other one is brand new in space itself, and it's already got a 75% gender diversity 75% of in space that institute is women. And I only started it two years ago and it was easy. It was easy to get there. Whereas I struggle a little bit more on the older style system for various reasons, you know, whether it's not as much attrition and things like this, but I do also think it's to do with having to change the culture as well, you know, and it's so everything from, so what we found is that some job ads, when you read them, I mean, they're very, it's not a men versus women here, it's a style of personality they're written for, if that makes sense, which predominantly comes from the male of the species, but a certain type of personality. Talk about that more, because I think this is very interesting for that, right? Because they don't have that sort of, what's the phrase, peacock personality, right? And then another thing for a lot of women as well is that if they don't feel they're gonna be taken seriously, so a comment I had of a few women that I reached out to, they often felt that where they were the token person in the round, they didn't want to be that, they wanted to be taken very seriously, because it takes a lot of effort, they weren't gonna throw something in without really preparing it, and that takes a lot of effort, they're busy people, families and jobs and things like this, and it takes a lot of effort to apply for a job. And so I think within space, because we got the chance to start from scratch, it meant that when people came and looked at our brochures and came to see what we're doing, they saw 75%, not by, I didn't set out to do 75%, by the way, I set out to do 50, 50, but they realized actually from the start, this is for them. And so it just built on itself, it was quite remarkable how quickly that went, but it's a fascinating area of how do we not only get girls, women more diversity, not just gender, of course, into our workplace, because we all need it, but how do we do that and how do we keep them there? Yeah, and how do we keep them there? So let's explore that a little bit. And I also want to talk about girls and science subjects as well, but keeping women in the workplace, it's not often about the women, it's about the flexibility of the work culture. And my sense is that it affects men just as it affects women, but men have never been allowed to talk about this stuff and women are making these conversations happen. So Michelle, I'm interested in your reflections on what it is you think that drives women out of an industry, a technological industry like the space industry. You know, they may have picked the right subjects at school, they may have done the relevant degree and then they get into the work environment. What are some of the barriers to progression? Well, first of all, are there jobs? So there's a lot of people being pushed into STEM degrees, but personally, I don't think there are that many STEM jobs available at the end of it, unless you want to be in research or academia or be a teacher, I mean, you know, or you want to work in a mining company or a brewery or somebody that you use for your engineer, for example, there are not that many options. So I think, you know, if there is going to be a push for more women or children to get into STEM, we need to be working very hard to make sure that there are jobs available for these people that are worthwhile and that are needed as well. So, I mean, Flavia, you probably had the same problem. I mean, we're a startup and sometimes it's very frustrating, you know, to even get the attention or to help them, not anymore, perhaps, you know, things are changing, but especially the early years, it's very hard to get help to start a new business in a new area. So space is new for Australia or at least new space is new for Australia. And it would have been, you know, if for example, the space agency was formed even a year earlier. I mean, how many more companies would we have today for these people to join? Better leavers and incentives for startups and businesses. Many women want to start businesses and they don't necessarily say, well, I'm going to start a science and technology related business. So we're all really logical people, as what Flavia said, we're all perfectionists. We all think before we leap very much. So for women, they will look at the degrees that they have on offer and they're like, what do I have at the end of this degree? Right, what's this meaning for me? And if there are no options, they won't get into it. I mean, not everybody wants to be a researcher or to be an academia, for example. And they're guaranteed lots of jobs in there and there's very little, I guess, you know, people won't criticize you, I think badly of you if you're an academic or if you're a researcher, but they may, if you're an engineer in some societies, for example, from where I came from, there are even fewer women engineers. So I came from Singapore before this and lots of smart people. So they think getting into engineering is great because it shows that you're smart, but on the other hand, it's also not a job that a mother would be able to do. So it's very different. Australia doesn't seem to have that problem, actually. I don't think there's a problem for women getting into STEM. I think it's just whether they can get a STEM job at the end of it. That's a very interesting point you make, although I was aware of an observation that you've made that some of the extended family support networks in cultures across Southeast Asia might actually enable women, when they have children, to kick on into leadership roles because they've got that extended family support that perhaps they don't have in a country like Australia, for example. So I definitely do feel that when I came here, there's no help. My family, I left them back in... I mean, I have family here too, but the support structure there is a lot better. They have childcare, very good childcare, and it's subsidized by the government. This is Singapore. It's not a well-fed country, right? But they do provide that kind of a subsidy because they're recognized that women, if they want to work, you need to be able to support them. I think that is the single biggest thing. I'm not saying anything that's political. I'm not telling the government what to do, but I'm just saying from my experience and observation, if you have childcare, then you'll have more women working. You can drop a big fat heap to the government. That's okay. But I wonder, Natasha, if there's something that I've been thinking very profoundly, Michelle, and that maybe next year when Feet raise again, I would like to build a childcare in the company. Of course. So at the moment, yeah, of course. So at the moment, and this is, you know what is interesting though, that the motherhood presence in a family, nowadays, not less or more than a father presence in a family. I mean, like, hopefully, okay. So you have to have the same rules. Like, I've got a team and most of them are new dads. So what do you do? Like, that's a really presence. There must be presence in their family as well. So the same rules apply. So I know we're talking about women, but I've got heaps of employees that need to pick up the kids and drop them off and be with them with school holidays. And when we are a school holidays here, Fleece, we got kids, everyone brings their kids like a crash. Now we put Netflix at the entrance and it's like, you know, it's, what do we do? Okay, and yeah. This is this notion that traditionally STEM, science, technology, engineering, maths, workplaces have assumed that parenting was a woman's role. This is not the situation in the 21st century. Tituations. And, you know, and nowadays we've got kids. Like, yesterday, my daughters were here, you know, my four years, so I haven't seen her for eight hours. She spent seven hours in the manufacturing team. I don't even know what she did. Okay, and it turns out she built something amazing. So, I mean, the reality is that it is possible. Like, it's possible. And maybe it's easier in a startup. It's easier for us to let people working from home and, you know, come in again at all their own arrangements. But I think with COVID a lot changed, you know, and people are working from home on and that demonstrated they can do it. So, I think it's been a good shift in mentality to support women in a sense, in some countries, in others, not really. Like, you know, because, you know, you need to be stuck at home and with the kids and what do you do? So, it is a big topic, but, if I can echo a few things that you both said on this, you compare with Singapore, I compare with France. I was pregnant with twins in the same time of my sister who was in France. And we were comparing the help we were getting. And Australia was definitely not the place where I should have had twins and my third kids because there is no help at all. And the cost of the childcare is just prohibitive. So, that's definitely something that is difficult, as you say, for women to stay in the job that they have because at some point you have to make a choice whether or not it's better to go back home and take care of your kids or having all your wages going into childcare. That's one thing. It's not just about childcare, is it? No, it's, I have to say, I mean, I don't know, Michelle, but I know Anna, Flavia and myself, we are very lucky to have partners or husbands who are helping a lot. And that's something that needs to be recognized that I don't think personally I would be doing what I'm doing if my partner was not helping and sharing the load. And how it worked like this, it was never, I was never told this is a man job or this is a woman job. It was later on that I realized, oh, okay, I'm the child bearer. What does that mean for my career? What does that mean for what's coming next? So I was really not prepared for this. So the other thing about attracting women into STEM is often you can see that they are women or young girls creating STEM, but then when you go to work, the percentage drops a lot. And I think it's because, especially for me, there was no woman example around me of being rocket scientist or working in STEM. I really hope that events like this tonight can show that it's all right to be a woman, it's all right to be a mother and you can have a STEM career. And I think these examples for me are very, very important. And that's what I missed when I was young. I realized there was something strange and that with all women spent 10 years at the European Space Agency, I was in a test center. Someone came through the corridor, saw me through a paper on my desk and said, could you fax that for me please? I'm gonna fax that for you, but I'm not a PA, I'm an engineer like you. And the guy was surprised and he apologized. He didn't really want to offend me. He was just not used to see women in that test center not being a secretary. So this example things around you is very, very important. That's what we're trying to show. Role models, I'm gonna come to Anna on that, but what did compel you to become a propulsion engineer? It's a long story. So DNA spacing is in my DNA. I'm very lucky and very spoiled. I grew up with a European launcher, Ariane, that's my big sister. So I went to French greener to see the first launch of Ariane and when you are 10 years old and you see that rocket taking off and the noise it makes vibrating in your stomach, you're really like, I like that. I think that's what I want to do. That was the first thing, but the other thing is I'm very curious and I love a lot of things and space offers you so many disciplines. It's not only propulsion, it's thermodynamic, behavior, mental, how are you gonna cope with isolation? It's radiation, it's health, it's system, it's putting everything together and it's a lot of problem solving. And I think that's what attracts me so much in space is that you may be not an expert into one thing, you can choose to be, but you can have a good understanding of a lot of things and that makes us so much able to do so many different things and so good problem solver. And I think it's space for me is a bug. You catch it and once you catch it, that's it, you can't do anything else than that. And to Michelle comments about I want to do a study, a degree that will make me find a job. I remember a discussion had with Flavia a long time ago and I think you said exactly this, Flavia. I said, I was in Australia, it's a bit like me. I was in Australia, I wanted to do space, there was no space, so I decided to create my own company in space and that's the kind of behavior we should have. Same for me, 20 years here, why we don't have a space agency and everything I did for 19, 18 years was writing paper, going to bother ministers and so we need a space agency in Australia. So if the job is not there, just create it and make the next one. Re-aim the job. Yes, you pushed very hard over very many years for an Australian space agency. So just briefly before I come to Anna, what did it feel like two years ago when that space agency opened its doors for the first time? I was in tears, in tears of joy. It was really, it was unbelievable because I think a couple of months before all the space community has been working so hard to end, to make that happen and Anna was in the ERG group and so were you, Flavia. I think a couple of months before it was announced, there was a vibe that we were thinking it's not going to happen and if it doesn't happen now, it will never happen. So having that announcement at ISE in Adelaide was there was a lot of people in tears and a lot of people dancing everywhere. So yeah, one of the highlights of being in Australia. Yeah, we seem blessed and thank you so much. I can see that you're posting your questions to the audience that's joined us from far and wide. I'm going to get to those in just a minute. But Anna, this idea, I mean, you were also fundamental to the foundation of an Australian space agency on the expert committee that made it happen, that made it form. Very exciting time. But this idea of you cannot be what you can't see. You've had interesting conversations with your kids about this, haven't you? They've kind of flipped the stereotype, which I love. Tell that story. Yeah, so there was a show recently about the space industry I was on and there were a few other people on and Adam was on, Adam Gilmore. I think I knew everyone on the show, which was pretty cool. But it was quite... I'm not going to mention the show, but you know what I'm talking about. It was quite male-orientated, I have to say. But I didn't say anything, and it was literally 10 minutes into it, and I have two daughters and a son, and 11, 8 and 7. But all three of them immediately said, where are all the women? And they weren't saying it because they were trying to be critical or trying to be nasty. They just genuinely didn't understand where they were, which I took as kind of like a really good thing. I mean, maybe the younger generation now is clearly different when I was young, but they have certain expectations to see more diversity than what I was assuming. Do you know what I mean? It was really sort of heartening in a way to hear them turn around, and I'm sure they would say, where's my mum? But actually it was where are the women? I want to hear the women. Because they were used to seeing that. They've seen my in-space team. They've seen, you know, I'm always talking to them about Flavie's doing and they know Ord, and so to them, that's totally normal. And so to see something once-sided, they picked it up and they said it, and I didn't say anything at all. So that gave me love that. We feel good. Do you smell it? I don't know. Michelle. Are you about Michelle? Yeah, I was going to say the space industry in Australia is actually quite well represented. On the women side. I mean, you say women in STEM, I think women in space probably doing a lot better than 17%. We got the minister for space. It's a woman. Space agency heads a woman. Lots of the space agency people are women. Everybody in Flavie is, no, I'm just kidding. Flavie is really good. I don't, we don't. We have 25%. I think that's a little bit above average, but still pretty poor. And 75% with Anna. I mean, we're doing pretty well. And you've got, you actually have really good role models overseas as well. I mean, Glenn Shotwell is obviously on a rocket site, really inspirational. I reckon that's partly because the Australian space agency, I mean, as you pointed out, the space industry has been evolving over a number of years in Australia, but the space agency itself is very new. And in a sense, we're building a kind of new-ish space industry here. Kind of in a different era. It's in an era where women have been kind of, their passions have been ignited about space, maybe in a different way to the kind of old school, you know, rocket to the moon era, you know, in the 60s and 70s, which was kind of coming out of the Cold War or through the Cold War. There was a whole different sort of culture there, America and Russia's industries. Australia is sort of building it afresh. Yeah, that's right. It's, in a way, it's interesting to start a space agency now and not 20 years later because we don't have all this legacy. And, you know, sometimes Nazar tells us we're lucky, and we're like, how am I lucky with like a billionth of your budget? How is that being lucky? But I say they have to feed the mouth of thousands and thousands of industry where we need to create the industry. And it's even more than that. There is a lot of successful industry here that can also apply to space, and they even don't know this. We are doing exactly this with the Supply Train program, trying to find the hidden gems in the manufacturing store in Australia and to see how we can export that to space. And we're finding some very, very good stories there. But to your question, space today is, you don't need government backing, you don't need government program. You can do your space industry and your space project yourself. The costs are more affordable. You still need a lot of support from the government because some people are looking at SpaceX as, you know, you can now doing everything private. He got three billions of dollars of contract from Nazar. So you still need that money there. But we can do things quicker. It's more accessible. You can test and fail faster and testing your product faster. And that's a real revolution in space. So when you have an idea being a woman or not a woman in space, you'll have the opportunity to test it and to see how you're gonna go there. And that's a big revolution. I wanna come to some questions and we've got some rippers. So I'm just gonna wade right in for the last 20 minutes that we've got together. So we have Stephanie who's asked, I've been a software engineer for 20 plus years. I have experience in the banking and retail industry. Currently I'm doing a masters in IT and I wanna do my thesis in the space area as I wanna work in the industry. I so agree with what you were saying, Flavia. My question is, how am I gonna be capable enough to work in the space industry? And I'm just gonna add to that another question from Elizabeth who has said, do you ever face imposter syndrome? So Flavia and others might wanna respond to those two questions. So regarding the first one was Stephanie. Stephanie, I'm in my company a fleet of high 45 people so far and I actually think that 25 of them are software engineers and not space engineers and not rocket scientists. They're a software engineer. There is the very interesting things that is happening. I mean, I've got a, I'm building a constellation of small satellite to serve industries. It's all about software. So the interesting things that a space industry is going through a change and it's not just the old school anyway, even in the way they're doing rockets and give more, it is different. Fleet is all about software. So if just yesterday there was a software engineer and the fleet is gonna back until software engineering, as long as you know how to use as a new software, you're in. You're not so- Describe what you're doing with Flate because you're building essentially a satellite communication system. We are building a satellite communication system. What's interesting is that, so it's for industrial IoT, so it's for devices in industry. So the software revolution that happened in the software.com boom, it's actually now shifting into space. So we're actually using space very much to support downstream application. So we're doing industrial IoT. So we help agriculture, mining energy to connect devices, okay? And we build constellation satellites, we build radios, we build ground station for the only sole purpose to provide customer with an app. You know where data is and they can check in the app and they can make things happen. So it's a software game. So Stephanie's skills are very relevant. And Michelle, I noticed that Stephanie said that she'd been working in the banking industry. And I'm wondering, I mean, in a different role, but I wonder how your skills from running a bank have translated across to setting up a rocket launching startup. So I'm in charge of marketing and communications. So I wouldn't say that, you know, being able to write well or speak well or present or do nice PowerPoint presentations or whatever it is, is the domain of one industry. It's basically a very transferable skill that you can use anywhere. If you look at our company, we've got 55 people, 10 of them are not engineers at all, or fabricators. So they're HR, they're admin, they're legal people, they're marketing, you know, our head of safety is a lady, a head of documentation is a lady. So these are roles that are nothing to do with being an engineer or a scientist, but very much into space, right? I think that is definitely an area where women can come into the space industry a lot more, just in terms of statistics, the numbers of women available in those roles. If that's something that we might look at. Yeah, I mean, you've got to be comfortable communicating with people, you've got to be comfortable with numbers. I mean, if you're going to be talking to investors, you have to be able to talk their lingo, and that's very useful to have a banking degree in some respect. But I mean, personally, I've never really been limited by, I've never felt limited by the degree that I have. So I don't think anyone else should. But having said that, you do need to demonstrate your skill and commitment to the industry that you want to get into. You can't just say, I want to get in. You know, I've got this degree, even if you're the best engineer, if you're not a good fit to the company, you're still not going to get in. So it's actually, they look at more than just your qualifications. Doing your homework, and that relates to a question from Pamela as well. Thanks Pamela for posting this one. And do keep posting your questions. We've got another 15 minutes, so plenty of time to get into the reads with you for our wonderful panel of four women in the space industry. But Pamela asks, what advice would you give to somebody who wants to join in the space industry development in Australia, where do you start? So what you've indicated is that if you've got the passion, and you can demonstrate that, and you also come with multiple disciplines, there are different ways in. But I like this question of imposter syndrome, Elizabeth Deloitte asked, have you ever felt, or do you ever face imposter syndrome? This strange feeling we have that somehow we don't belong where we are. Even the most accomplished leaders in industries say this to me, and it's mainly women that say it, not men, which is a curious thing. I think it cuts to that perfectionist streak that a lot of us have. Any thoughts from, anyone can pick that up? I can start on that one. And it's a small story as well, but I think it's doing the study in Australia, the news that you do when you're in kidneys to make you feel comfortable talking to people. And in the study we do in France, before you talk, you need to be 150% sure about what you're about to say. So the imposter syndrome, I had that a lot here. Everybody around me was talking, so comfortably, and I was a lot of insurance, and I was always thinking, oh, maybe they're right. Until one day I realized that people were not right, and I knew the answer to this, and I realized that I should have talked like 10 years ago. So yeah, the imposter syndrome, even today I still have it, but I'm pushing myself, so just say it, even if it's not right, that's all right to be wrong. I guess we have to accept that and stop being perfectionists all the time. So I agree imposter syndrome, I still have that, and I think we always have it. I think there's something about imposter syndrome that also means you have a degree of humility, which can sometimes be really useful in listening to other people's perspectives rather than just railroading in with your own views. Hey, I want to bring in Kaylee's question. She's a year 12 student at Sydney, really keen on space exploration. So far I'm planning to study aerospace engineering at UNSW or aeronautical engineering with a major in space engineering at the University of Sydney. Can you guys give me some advice? I might say, can you girls give me some advice, please? Tips, careers, parts, advice. How can I get into a space exploration career? Any thoughts from any of our panelists for Kaylee Lee, a year 12 student at Sydney? Well, Kaylee, it's something I can tell you from the bottom of my soul, okay? They independently of what you're gonna do, just study and earn what you know. You have to know what you know. Like we are talking about female, but what we should talk about is people that own their knowledge. So I started aerospace engineering, space engineering. I was a professional basketball player and I love going out and party, but I started, okay? I started and I learned and if you're gonna go down this path via engineering, the advice that I can give you in the next five years is very important. Don't forget to have fun, but just study. Just love what you're doing because once you're out, this is the beautiful thing. But once you're out, you can do it all. And by the time, one of the big, big things that I wanna tell you is that when a fleet we have someone, the only things that we ask to everyone is a new graduate, a person and it's got 25 years experience. We ask them what is the coolest things that you've built? What is the coolest stuff in your private life that you have done? Okay, this is a question for a salesperson, engineer or an HR manager. It doesn't matter, you know? Cause space is an industry full of dreamers, full of active, full of doers. Do stuff during the next five years. Don't just study, also do stuff, build stuff. Just build things. I remember I interviewed this person one day and I said to him, what's the coolest things that you have done? And he said to me, I really don't like to bring a purse. So I have built an IoT system that can open my door automatically and I've got everything. Automatically came in my garage and I thought that was super cool and it's been hard. You know? So that's the name. It's as much about what you do in your degree, isn't it? It's all the other things that you do and they might not be making things. I mean, I know when I did engineering, a lot of the old school male lecturers would go, well, what machines have you built? And none of the boys in the classes have built machines either, but we all had a real passion for technology and the kind of interesting problems that it presented to us. But it's as much about the things that you try, isn't it? The passions that you have. Yeah, try things. But at the end of the day, all know what you know. No matter what it is. Like, this is not a game of very shy people. Or like they don't want to study. If you know what you know, you're a good operator, you're a professional person, you know how to write software, you will be hired. Don't worry about that. Because between Fleet and Gilmore, if we are lucky enough and good enough in the next five years, we'll hire a thousand of people. So there's not going to be a lack of job. There's just going to be a lack of good people that study a lot. So just study, please. Fast as you can. Here we've got one from Bella. She's in year 10. Hi, Bella. Thanks for joining us. I really want to become an astrophysicist and study black holes when I'm older. What are some of the things I can do to help me achieve that goal? I'm going to tack another question on to Bella's question. And that's from Bronwyn. When will an Australian woman be involved as an astronaut? When will we see an Australian woman astronaut launch? So yes, Bella or Bronwyn. Who'd like to pick up those? Maybe, Anna, you can pick up the one as an astro-astronomer yourself. Sure. Look, that was that Bella. Yeah. That's Bella, isn't it? Hi, Bella. So that's awesome. So I'll just give you my email. Ah, there. So I study black holes too and other things. And so to do astronomy, you have to have a passion about it. You clearly do. It's good to follow your maths and physics as well and make sure that you really enjoy that and that's really what you want to do. But most astronomers, especially those that studied black holes, and we just heard that one got a Nobel Prize last night, we're just genuinely utterly passionate about what we do. So if that's what you want to do and that's really stimulates you and excites you, you know, just keep hard on studying. As I said, send me an email and we'll talk about it then. Right. And to find your email, just Google Anna Moore at AAU and you'll find it. It'll come up. So she'd love to hear from you. We're getting great questions and comments. And what was the other question I asked? Let me just check. When will there be an astronaut woman? I'm going to make a political answer when we are working on it. Yeah, that's what I can say. Woo! Is it you? I'm Australian now, I'm just saying. Like, I'm a future Australian now. There is a long queue and there will be a selection. So work hard. As you said, Flavia, work hard. And as long as you're passionate of what you're doing, you will be fine. Yeah, but OK, so given that you're working on it, for all of those watching on and there are 80 of you, thank you so much. How do they get in the queue? I can't say more on all of that though. We're in trouble. Where is the queue? I don't want to join the queue. I'm going to get into the queue. Penelope has written just a comment. I find it so inspiring hearing from these amazing woman leaders in the Space Agency. Thank you for your stories, persistence and optimism. Yes. We've also got... I thought this one was really interesting. And Ebony writes, I absolutely love Flavia's insight into recruiting women, very relatable. Now, she also writes, on diversity, the space industry feels often very closed off to those who are not engineers. Do you believe there's a fundamental lack of appreciation for creating value for new space companies through other disciplines? Now, we've kind of addressed that, haven't we? So I think we probably can move on, but I think that's a point that you've all made. I think also there's one more point is really where we are as a company. So if the industry is full of startups and startups are cash-strapped, then they are only going to hire the people that they absolutely need first. So if you're building a satellite, then you need somebody who can build a satellite as a priority of who you are hire first. It's only when you get to a certain size or critical mass is this when you look at, you know, other roles that are not as critical. So for myself, I did 10 different jobs before I kind of settled on communications, for example. And that's because that's how it is with a startup, right? That's the fun of a startup, right? Yeah, just not enough. I mean, once as what Flavia said, there are thousands of jobs out there, you will have the opportunity. And just to quickly convey, what's happening in 2022 with Gilmore Space? We'll be looking up into the sky and there'll be an arish rocket and it's going to be traveling through the atmosphere and it's going to be delivering one of Flavia satellites into orbit, right Flavia? Absolutely. And possibly one from Otis, well. Empowered by sensors and stuff from Anna's shop. So there you go. Because of course, Flavia's involved in developing nano satellites and the networks that connect them and you're involved in developing rockets that will launch these satellites up to orbit. Yeah, so actually a fantastic ecosystem that we're developing here is very end to end, it's comprehensive. We have really nice people in the industry which is very helpful, I think for a startup. Nice one. Abby's written, obviously we're right to provide examples, opportunities, encouragement for girls and women into STEM careers. However, at the moment we have a lot of women already in non-STEM professions who want to work in space and space needs governance and law and chaplaincy and commerce and other arts professions to function. Never mind health and psychology that are sciences, lest we forget. How we prioritize upskilling current female professionals to understand space environments and operations without taking away from the women in STEM focus. It's an interesting one, isn't it Anna? It is, but I think that's... Look, we're needing those professions now. I mean, my institute is half science, half humanities because we need that to do the national projects that we're doing, the bushfire satellite mitigation projects, the deep space communication projects, the technology that can change the world, but do we understand it? Do we understand what it's going to do? Have we asked the right questions? It's those kind of things that the humanities mission specialists that we call them in our institute, that's what they bring to the table. And without that discussion, we just wouldn't be as big, you know, we wouldn't be thinking as big as what we are. So I think this is not something that will happen. It is, you know, it's already happening and we're already looking as a nation focusing on, look, what's the broader range of skills that we need to satisfy Australia's space industry in the future? And it's not anything close to 80% STEM at all. STEM is obviously important, but it's much, much broader than that. So please don't feel forgotten, we do need you. And then we've got to... I don't think there is one job on Earth that doesn't have an application in space. Anything people are doing today has an application in space. It's just as simple as this. So whatever you do, if you are passionate about space, there will be a job for you in space. There is absolutely no doubt about this. So we've only got a couple more minutes left. I'm going to try and just squeeze in a couple more related questions because they are pouring in. Thank you so much, people. What a great event. It's so inspiring in the best way. We overused that word, but I genuinely find this conversation inspiring, which is fantastic. What a way to celebrate World Space Week. Madeleine has written, do you think that the pandemic has humanised business's approach of work-life balance as a lot of men are currently working from home as well? And this has shifted the attitudes, perhaps, related to that. Roshni has written, how do you think we can unite to take tangible steps to combat the systemic barriers to inclusion of women in STEM industries? COVID-19 has helped level the flexible work-playing field, but what else can we do? And what else can women leaders at all career levers do to help create this change in their own organisations? Related to that, another one from Roshni, Melinda Gates' book, The Moment of Lift, offers some great insights around how women can support each other more in the workplace. How can women support other women more effectively in STEM careers and STEM industries? And I would add, how do you get women encouraging men to support other women in these industries too? Anyone want to pick up any of those threads just in the last minute that we've got? Very quick. It's important for women like us and others to be in those positions of where others can see that we've made it, that we can do it. I agree with Aud, when I was first starting, I'm older than Aud, but when I was first starting, there was no one. I mean, there was really no one to look up to. We have to have that, right? Having said that, if you want to change an organisation, that's mostly one majority. You've got to change the majority. You've got to change them by just one percent, that's all. So it's not just about women affecting women or one culture affecting one culture that's a minority. It's about making sure that the empathy and the messaging is getting across the majority as well. Because most of the time, if you are a majority, most of us are white on this call, for example, you don't see, you don't even see the issues. So you have to step up and say, I do understand the issues, I empathise with that, and I'm going to change what I do, and I'm going to look out for that. And those tiny little things that mean nothing to us, well, they do mean something to someone who faces it. And I think that's a profound difference. Any other thoughts? Change one on one is awareness first, and then you have action. Without awareness, there can be no action. And awareness starts with asking the right questions of people around you, doesn't it? And listening. It can be confronting. It can be confronting because nobody really intends to discriminate. It's just continuing to say, but sometimes you just need to be a little bit uncomfortable for change. You talk about impostors, I think all startups are impostors, right? Flavia was an impostor. What made you think you could launch that like you're a woman, blah, blah? So it's really how you take it. I mean, I'd be proud if I was called an impostor. Yeah. Something I don't want to say, and you're right, Michelle, something I want to say to all the people that listen to us in my entire life, my entire life from school, to studying, to being a CEO, to work ever. I never had a problem because I was a woman. I was just a plus. I never had a moment in which I thought, oh, this is going to be hard because I'm a woman. It's all in our mind. So the changes is within. I never had a problem or because I'm younger than you. So generation has changed, but I never had it. And actually now I'm in a period in which so how we make it happen, I think leaders needs to be women because the change of fraternity also come from leaders. And the things that I was telling about recruitment techniques is very, very important. There's another one that I need to say, women do not ask for big salaries, give women big salaries, because they do not ask for big salaries. And if they got big salaries, they can pay good childcare. They are not going to ask the same salary of a man. As a leader, you need to give it to them. Okay. It's very important. I wholly endorse giving women big salaries. Big salaries. You will do. So it's good. It's been absolutely, I would, look, there's a whole hour where we could talk about the fact that it's not just about, I would argue that it's not just about change within. It is about societal change as well. And women can drive that societal change, but it takes men to be part of that too. So if you're watching on and you're a male colleague in the space industry, this is a conversation as much for you as the women that you're seeing here today who are leading the charge in the Australian space industry. Let's thank, and I'm going to imagine that you're virtually clapping out there in the wide universe, somewhere in the cosmos, Michelle Gilmore of Gilmore Space Technologies, Professor Anna Moore, Director of the ANU Institute for Space, Flavio Tartanadini, Co-Founder and CEO of Fleet Space Technologies and Aud Vinyel's Executive Director of the Australian Space Agency, no less. Thank you so much for joining me, all four of you. Thank you for having us. Have a wonderful World Space Week and you watching on can be part of more events brought to you by the ANU in space team via the ANU and the Australian ANU Institute for Space. They have more virtual events coming up over the two weeks that makes up World Space Week, including on sustainable fuels, helping bushfire managers from space, both vital, vital challenges for Australia and also the space environment. You just have to Google ANU and World Space Week and they'll come up and you can register and be part of those. Thank you so much for your terrific questions, particularly to the high school students, do take Anna Moore up on the challenge of finding her email and sending her an email, but I know that all of the participants, Michelle, Aud and Flavia would be probably delighted to hear from you as well if you're in high school or you're at university or indeed, you're in a professional career and you're really angling to pursue a passion for joining the space industry. I'm Natasha Mitchell. Thank you so much for joining us. Good night.