 First of all, thank you all for coming. Thank you for the other presenters who will be speaking after us. Thank you to Imperial for hosting us, obviously. And I know a lot of work goes behind the scene in organizing these things, sending out the invitations, managing the list. So thank you to the crypto compare guys, especially Vlad, for doing this month after month for the last, I don't know, how many years. I have been attending the Ethereum meetups for the past two years, and I normally sit at the back and keep quiet. So it's a nice opportunity for me to actually take the stage and present to the community about what project, the project we're working on. So as I mentioned, our company is Tramonex, and we're going to present, we have a presentation we want to show you, and then we'll open it to Q&A. And we work in the payment space. Specifically, we have an existing business and international payments, where we can execute the foreign exchange. Our clients are mainly in continental Europe, emerging markets, Africa, businesses that do import, export, shipping companies, airlines, a variety of corporates, we're very much B2B. And as we build this business over the last two years, we had to develop a lot of internal procedures about AML, compliance, risk, et cetera. And we obviously, we have been working, with the FCA, the Financial Conduct Authority very closely. We are regulated and our license is passported across all EU countries. So last year, we were doing a bit of research and development in terms of what are the emerging technologies that will have a big business, a big impact on our international payments business. And you cannot escape coming across blockchain. It's in the news, it's in academic publications. You cannot escape noticing it. And as we did our research, we noticed, so we are familiar with the existing problems in the existing banking infrastructure, which is sort of one side of the slide. And then we discovered that this emerging blockchain cryptocurrency space also has some problems. So, namely, on the banking side, you have often clients have to wait for two days when you're in emerging markets up to five days to receive the payments. There is no way to track the payments. So you don't know if it's sitting with the bank in your country, with the bank in the other country. What is it waiting for? Which is amazing, because if you look at UPS and postal parcels, you can track them every step of the way. It gets scanned every step of the way. You know if your parcel is in the delivery van, in the distribution center, whether it's been picked up, or time it's been picked up, the name of the driver. When it comes to payments, it's a bit of a black hole. So the money goes in, and hopefully a few days later it comes out in the right place. And the amount of sort of exceptions and issues that arise, to give you an example, if you're a company and you're making a payment of 300,000 pounds and you want to convert it to Euro, to fund your account, you have to send 300 pounds. If you send 325 pounds, chances are the payment will be rejected, and then because of the 25 pounds excess, and then you have to do it again. And each time you do it, there's fees involved, there's time involved, people, phone calls, et cetera. So in theory, blockchain and cryptocurrencies can address a lot of these issues. In terms of providing transparency, in terms of providing speed, especially, I'm referring to public blockchains, not the private permission blockchains. So that's great, why don't we all start using cryptocurrency in Ethereum to transact? Well, so it turns out that cryptocurrencies are in a regulatory gray zone. So in other words, if it's not very clear, are the exchanges regulated that trade in cryptocurrencies? Once you have cryptocurrency, it's not very clear, well, what rights do you have as a consumer? Is there a public body you can turn to if things go wrong? And regulators in many countries and central banks are watching this space and regulation is evolving, but at the moment, it's a gray zone. So we came along, we studied very closely the technology, we have our existing business, so we put the two together and decided, well, is there some way to bridge these two? Is there some way to do crypto in a regulated way? So that is our solution. We try to position ourselves as a bridge between the regulated financial system and blockchain-based payment services. And the way this works in the context of Ethereum, it's if you go on the Ethereum webpage, the first thing you will learn is how to issue your own digital token on the Ethereum blockchain. It's very straightforward. The problem is that token normally doesn't have any value, doesn't mean anything. So we are giving value to our token by holding collateral in Fiat, that a segregated bank account. And we're able to do that because of our regulated status and because of our knowledge and expertise in the traditional banking environment. Okay. And why do we do this? We think it will enable a lot of new businesses, things like micro payments, which are currently very difficult to do because of the cost of processing a payment. So Ethereum blockchain should bring a significant cost advantage to blockchain-based payment systems. But also, as we know, Ethereum is natively enabled for smart contracts. And later tonight, we will hear about various smart contract projects that other companies are working on. And a pain point for many of these projects is if they need to move money, they either somehow need to interface the blockchain with a bank API, which bank APIs are very, very notoriously difficult to get hold of. Or if someone like Kaskin provide a digital token directly on the Ethereum contract, on the Ethereum blockchain, your smart contracts can interface directly with them. So whether it's an insurance contract that needs to collect premiums or make a payout, whether it's just a direct payment linked to your card, whether it's something more complex, like we'll show you an example later of sort of government money, how you can restrict the uses of money. So in effect, on the blockchain, so we want to have the benefits of national currencies because people understand what they are. People understand pound sterling, people understand US dollar, people don't understand Bitcoin unless you spend five hours explaining it to them. And then they still have their reservations. On the other hand, blockchain is fantastic. And Ethereum especially is a fantastic technology with a lot of benefits built into it. So I mean, these are some of the benefits of this kind of arrangement. You can see it enables quite a few things. So what I'm hoping is people who are working on very smart contract ideas or other business plans where the pain point is the actual moving of the money, we please come and talk to us afterwards because we potentially have a way for you to do it directly on the blockchain, which means nearly instantaneous and transparent, immutable, et cetera, et cetera. So that's from me. At this point, I'm going to hand over to Dave, our CTO, to walk you through a few more slides and then I'll come back later, I think. That's quite a big question. I'm not hugely familiar with these slides, so you're gonna have to bear with me. But actually, if we do stick on how does it actually work? One of the things I like about the model we've come up with is very, very simple. Anyone who has done any Solidity development at all will be very familiar with the Solidity token or the Ethereum token as Nick pointed out, rolling out your beloved Unicorn token is probably the first thing you're going to do if you come across Solidity or Ethereum more generally. We are very much stuck to that paradigm. The token that we are issuing onto the Ethereum blockchain is just using the standard Ethereum token interface. There is no, I'll be honest, I'm gonna stand here openly as the CTO, there's no technical genius going on here. What's really interesting is kind of the operational component factored with the Ethereum token covered by that regulatory umbrella. So what we do is we, let's say you want 100 digital pounds worth of these tokens. You essentially send us 100 pounds. We're a regulated financial institution. You can wire it to us in a potentially a range of forms. We're looking to put a payment gateway in so that you can just do it on your credit card if that's what you were looking to do. And we would hold that money in what's known as a client segregated bank account. So this is like an FCA oversight. They give their oversight to these clients, segregated accounts. That really means that if we go bankrupt, we can't touch that money nor can an administrator. It means that money is safe and would get re-delivered out to people were we to go bankrupt. The idea is that you send us the money once we can acknowledge receipt of those funds. We will issue the tokens to wherever you would ever address you have requested they be sent to. We need to perform some kind of background checks on you, some KYC, know your client checks again from a regulatory point of view to know who you are. But once that's done, you've got these tokens and you can do what you like with them. They are, as we see them, essentially digital banknotes. They behave exactly like a banknote. There's almost no difference, apart from the fact that you can now interact programmatically with your banknote, which is pretty cool. We are, and I'm normally careful how many people I say this to you because it can start to raise some other concerns. We are essentially acting like a central bank. In fact, we essentially are behaving like a central bank. It has some implications. I'm not sure how you'd value a central bank, for example, but the fact that it has regulatory oversight is the thing that we really consider to be actually be a very powerful thing and we have a number of clients who are interested in using this who wouldn't use it if there wasn't that regulatory backing term. So that's very important to us. I originally got interested in this because my background is banking for my sins. Yeah, keep the boost to a minimum, please. We really got into this because, like Nick said, you can't get away from the blockchain and the financial technology space right now, nor would you want to. The current model for, if you actually take a foreign currency transaction for us, is pretty much someone comes to us with their sterling, they say, I want to make a euro payment, but I don't have a euro bank account, nor do I have any way of getting hold of 2 million euros. So they come to us, we take the sterling, we go to the bank or the street or the FX marketplace and we do a foreign currency transaction. It'll take two days for that to settle and to move actually those final, that euro payment on to the final payee. This has got a number of risks. It's two days for the payee to send us the money and two days for us to get the payee, the beneficiary, the final beneficiary, their money. That's two days of credit risk, as I see it. That's two days too long for someone to go bankrupt and for the money to just never arrive. So what we would be able to do if there were national currencies on the blockchain is for someone to say, hey, look, I've got some digital sterling already. You'd hope they have it already. You'd hope that this stuff was kind of in circulation and being used. And we say, okay, fine, we'll use a smart contract to act almost like an escrow. Two parties can simply put their sterling in one side, their euro in the other side and can just exchange instantaneous settlement, no settlement risk, no credit risk, and it's instantaneous, which is pretty nice. Everyone gets their money straight away. Brilliant. So additional benefits, though, specifically of actually the national currencies on the blockchain or the fiat currencies on the blockchain are things like this that Nick talked about. One of the first things that came up for the British government when they were looking at the use of blockchain technologies was conservative government. How do we cover making sure people can't spend their benefit money on things they shouldn't be spending a lot? So this is a pretty interesting way of being able to do this. This means that if you were to take this national currency and you were to wrap it in various smart contracts, you can start to do some very powerful things with it. You can, if you want to, and if that's deemed appropriate, you can control where the money is spent. Not to mention all of the other interesting things you can do with it. If anyone's familiar with foreign currency markets, people regularly want to buy or sell money based on sorts of triggers. You could use Oracleize or something else to trigger events that occur and move money based on the back of those events. There's all sorts of cool things you can do. So, right, and this is the point actually. Like I said, there's no technical genius going on here. I'm taking your money, I'm giving you some tokens and I'm giving you the promise backed by the FCA that when you want your money back, I'll give it to you back and that money is safe whilst we hold it. There's nothing revolutionary going on there. But finding someone who is prepared to do that, who understands the banking sector, who understands the, how does enough kind of ability to interact with the regulators or the background to interact with the regulators, those things have not yet been combined. There are certain competitors out there to products like this, but none of them have regulatory oversight. Probably one of the most significant companies is based in Panama. Sounds like great for them, but probably not so great for me. So, I'm going to try and kind of rattle through here, but real money on the blockchain, it provides all sorts of benefits. I mean, here we're talking about providing a private sector alternative in a regulated fashion. Regulators, an alternative for APIs, exactly. I mean, this is one thing, trying like as Nick mentioned, actually trying to get banks. It's very easy to find an API where someone's going to be prepared to fx and hedge your fx market risk. It's very different finding a bank that's actually going to be prepared to settle those currencies. Extraordinarily difficult to settle, say, Garnon or Kenyon Schilling, for example. You could start doing that with this with considerably greater ease, with considerably greater protection. Again, removing that credit risk, which is often a concern in those areas. Internet of Things, micro transactions, it enables micro transactions in a way that has just not been done before. You can do micro transactions with any cryptocurrency, I guess, but it's not backed by a central bank. It's not a real currency. It's not necessarily something that anybody outside of this room, for example, would want to carry around with them. Let's be honest, in my mind, could take some heat for this. Not everybody wants to carry Bitcoin around. People want, people like sterling. The public at large, they like their pounds sterling. They want to keep their pounds sterling. I like the idea that we could bring it to them in another fashion. They're going to have the money in their bank account, the notes in their pocket, and maybe the national currency on their phone. For an exchange on the blockchain, something you can do off the back of this, again, automated via smart contracts, but I won't necessarily dwell on that too much, but again, it makes the remittance market particularly interesting. Transfer-wise claim to be able to peer-to-peer match all of your effects. You would no longer need transfer-wise to peer-to-peer match your effects if you want to exchange money with someone. You would just be able to instantaneously do it. You no longer need to give up that 1% fee. Nick, all yours, man. Sure, thank you, Dave. So, I mean, if you've heard what you've been listening and you're sort of trying to draw comparisons, like, oh, are they a little bit like this one company or this one company? We think we're a little bit like each one of the companies listed there and with each one of them in comparison, we have some differentiating factors. Again, being onshore regulated on a public blockchain. And what you see on the other side of the slide is the market size, the current global market size for the payments industry. I mean, it's huge, 650 billion pounds per day. I mean, we're just a drop in the ocean. Most big companies you read about us just a drop in that big ocean. So it's a huge space with a lot of opportunities for multiple players. So going back to our business model, we've come from a sort of conventional FX to FX done by APIs. And we do believe the future is FX on the blockchain. I mean, we'll see in the next two to three years if it doesn't materialize, then we'll have to substitute FX on the blockchain with something else. But for the moment, we're quite bullish. We think we're the right people to do this because we haven't established an operating and growing financial business and because we're regulated. And we'd like to think that we're the center of the center of the universe. Yeah, everybody thinks the center of the universe, but... So I mean, if you're interested in our company history, I mean, this is public information. We've put it on here for everybody to get an idea of when the company was registered. You can see this on company's house. You can check our license information on the register of the FCA. And you can see we... By the way, something I forgot to mention, we received a grant from Innovate UK, which is an agency of the British government responsible for innovation. And we're developing an FX settlement prototype using blockchain technology and we're planning to start commercializing it in January 2017, which is our wonderful management team. And if you want to get in touch, that's our information. So I think at this point, we will open to Q&A. We're going to pass this microphone and we have another microphone at the front. So I'm not sure, Nicole, do you wanna run up the stairs with the microphone or how are we going to do this? Hi, yeah, I'm just in front. My name is Arif. So I had a couple of questions. So the first thing was a question on whether if you were providing the currency or you're essentially enabling the network to onboard market makers, which are providing currency. And the second thing is how do you guys make money? So, okay, we're very much in testing phase with the fiat currency on the blockchain. So any partners that we're partnering with right now, we're not making any money. We have an existing FX business that makes plenty of money. This is, the start is an R&D project for us, which is now getting increasingly serious and we would look to commercialize in the future, but right now we're not. In terms of your first question, the aim really is to allow anybody to put their hands on the fiat currency, not anyone in particular. The idea is that if you, it really is, I keep coming back to this concept of these banknotes. If you leave some digital sterling with us, or if you leave some real sterling with us or some real euro with us, we will give you the corresponding one-to-one value in the digital tokens with the promise that we will exchange them back if you'd like to do so in the future. What you then do with those tokens, entirely up to you, very similar to the banknote really, once they're in the wild, they're in the wild. Does that kind of? Corresponding value to the pounds. So economically, the reason you have to retain a full reserve, and so absolutely everything, we can't do anything with that money. Oh, we don't, no, sorry, you don't need an exchange price. I'm saying if you give me five pounds, I will give you tokens worth five pounds. And like the central bank, if I'm gonna hold your five pounds in reserve, your tokens now have value of five pounds. In the same way that historically you would give your gold to the central bank, they would issue you with a note that you can carry around and you can spend and you can return for your gold at a point in time. It's just that here you would peg it one-to-one. And it's the full reserve that allows us to hopefully retain that value. There's always a small chance that they trade at a premium, but we'll see. Yes, yes, that's, we are under no illusions that unless lots of people want this, it doesn't work very well. Sorry, how available is the currency at the moment? The tokens, it's not at all available at the moment. We launch in this month. We're actually, our first partners are in the room. Alice is somewhere kicking around. Oh, hey guys, we're working with these guys first as our kind of our first partners. It's not out in the, it's not out to the public yet. It will be on the public blockchain, but the, as I said, we need to KYC and get checks off with various regulators with who we would work with first, so. So can I just check, I understand then. So are you saying that, for example, FX market makers could be clients of yours and use your bank account facilities to make a market and therefore enable effectively same day or instantaneous? Yeah, so now I'm at risk of people throwing things at me, but my background, prior to this, I spent seven years at Goldman Sachs. There's absolutely no reason why you couldn't load Goldman's up with a bunch of this stuff, load JP Morgan, load maybe the other 10 kind of leading FX banks on the street up with this and from an interbank settlement point of view, they just settled between themselves using this stuff instantaneously. So yes, from a market making point of view, you could do this, at which point it really might start trading at a premium because of the lack of credit risk. You can arguably discount. I'm not sure I really understand the credit risk side of things. When you put the pounds that you receive in a bank account, which bank account are you putting it in and you say it's segregated and that you're working with the regulator, does that mean they're backing it and guaranteeing it? Or I mean, isn't there still a risk of the bank's liquidity? Which I mean, can you share information on custody risk? So, okay, so the credit risk I'm really talking about is current existing credit risk. If you and I do an FX trade right now, for example, we agree on the price of euro dollar. I'm gonna give you some euros, you're gonna give me some dollars. But there's not actually an expectation for me to deliver you those euros or you to deliver me those dollars until two days time. Which means we can have agreed a rate. The markets can be moving against me or in my favor. And in two days time, you can phone me and you can be like, sorry, Dave, don't go on. At which point I'm out and I've potentially exposed myself to two days worth of volatility in the market. And I could make a very significant loss or a very significant gain. That's the credit risk I'm talking about. I'm talking about my exposure to you once we've done the FX. In the context of the bank that where we hold the money, yes, our clients, people who use this product, they are exposed to that bank. And the bank will be regulated. There will be protection from the bank under standard FCA regulation. But let's be honest, if we put all of our money with Lehman Brothers and they completely vanish, it's gonna take a few years for administrators to sort that all out. So there is an element there. What we would love to be able to do is store our money with a central bank. And the Bank of England are talking about potentially opening up bank accounts, but we think they're a little way away from them. Hopefully if we go to market with something like this, it might kick them into gear a little bit. Nick, you can take a few. Hi, my name's Daniel. So my question is, if I'm interested in the remittances market, right? And I don't really, perhaps you can expand a bit on that. If I wanted to set myself up as a competitor to Western Union, right? So I would get money in from people who want to send it to their granny in Colombia in some village in the middle of nowhere. How would someone like that work with you in this? Would you like to take that? Sure. Go on now if you like. So let's start with, do you want to do the effects or do you just want to send them money? No one cares about how the money, what happens? They just care that the money comes in and it ends up with their granny, right? So what would I do in that use case as someone who's basically in effect to setting themselves up as a money changing business or something, receiving some money and trying to put it somewhere in another country? For your specific scenario, your grand would have to want digital currency or you would need a model which could emerge in the future where she could then exchange that money locally for cash, for example, you would imagine that that was probably gonna be a service. Cash machine is essentially how that would work and we do have partners who are interested in rolling out cash machines for this. So let's envisage a scenario where maybe your granny lives in the US, you've got some US dollar and you can give it to us, we'll give you digital dollars, you immediately and instantaneously just move it to her address, to her Ethereum address I'm talking about there, at which point she could exchange it in ATM for cash, one for one. Does that kind of? Yeah, that makes sense. But then in what ways is it different from me, say, buying a lot of Bitcoin and sending her the Bitcoin? It's not, apart from the fact that Bitcoin price could change a bit in 48 hours or however long it takes to get there. It totally depends on whether you, from in that context, it's no different from Bitcoin, apart from the fact that one of them is Bitcoin and one of them is pound sterling or US dollar. And there are some differences there with one being a central bank backed currency and one of them being a standard crypto currency. Have I heard of Tether, was there? Tether dollars, so if you trade on Polonics you can use Tethers as a settlement mechanism. It's conceptually very similar. I'm not aware if they hold reserves and how they hold them and if they regulate it or if they're onshore or offshore, I don't know, so I can't comment. But yeah, conceptually it's very similar. Yes, but what I'm saying is I don't know how that peg is enforced, whether they're using some complex technical algorithms or whether they're holding full reserve, whether that reserve is in a segregated status in which country, so I don't know. My name is Daniel. So my question is about how you operate all this thing. Let's say you've said that you have a segregated account for every customer and more or less you have two balances, one on the account and another one in tokens on smart contracts. And the transfers in tokens are settled quickly on the blockchain, but the transfers in accounts are not so quick, so how do you manage to do, to ensure that these balances are synchronized? And another question is let's say I receive a money on your system and so I've got the settlement on the blockchain, so I've got some money on my balance in tokens, but immediately I would like to get money from the account itself, but you didn't settle yet. So how do you handle this situation too? So let's take the first one. Actually, let's take the second one. If the money has not actually physically reached us yet, then yes, you are limited. There is a kind of a loose idea here that's maybe a little bit hopeful that when you want your digital currency, you are in the long term, people will keep their digital currency and that's what will be used. So yes, if when you send us the money, there could well be a 24 hour delay in you sending us the money. You won't get your tokens until we've got the money. And when you want your money back, it could take us 24 hours for you to get you the cash into your bank account. In that case, there is some settlement delay. Yes, definitely. Again, the implicit assumption here is that you want those tokens because you're gonna keep them for a period of time. Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay, so cool. So in terms of the first one, in what we're really interested in is again, like releasing the banknotes into the wild, what we care about is making sure that the total number of tokens in circulation matches the total amount on the bank account. And that's actually a very easy check to do. You can simply inspect the blockchain for to see how many tokens there are in existence. The tokens can't be destroyed apart from by us. So they're out there, they are in circulation and you just check that the balance in the bank account matches the balance on the blockchain. One more question. You just said that you will not receive your tokens until we've got the money on the account. Does it mean that the settlement is still really connected to the money on the account? Yes, it is. And actually that's very significant for the FX. So it means that my balance on tokens will not be changed until you've got money on my segregated account. So it's at the same time for settlement, right? Yes, and when we're not claiming, I mean, this is a very important part for the FX. We're not claiming that right now, as soon as you put these tokens there, that we can solve the FX problem for anybody immediately. It only works if the both parties are interested in having the digital tokens and retaining the digital tokens. Settlement of the tokens is instantaneous. And if people want those tokens and they can be used for other things, then there's value, you know, which is why we're working with ATM providers, we're working with payment gateways, we're working with merchants who would potentially accept them so that they become a commonplace currency that is used across the board. But if you want to say, do an FX transaction and you've got to wire me the sterling, we wait until we've got it, we issue you the tokens, you convert it for some euros, and then we wait to settle those euros, that's not really gonna have sped anything up for you. Does that make sense? Yes, thanks. I mean, just to add from my side, so we're working on the assumption that in the future central banks will willingly want to issue digital currency on a blockchain, either their own blockchain or the Ethereum blockchain or some other blockchain. So in the future, a lot of these things will be just natively possible, but until then we would like to be able to take care of this in the private sector and hopefully do it right with support from everybody. So we have a long-term vision, but I mean, there's still a long way until we get there. Probably one more question to get to the bottom of that, sorry. Let's say if I receive money in the tokens, you mean I will not be able to use it until we delay today's? No, so in theory, once you have the tokens, we're working with merchants who want to accept the token as a means of payment. We're working with existing cryptocurrency payment gateways where in addition to that 20 crypto, they want to add a stable coin like ours as an additional option. So I mean, we have to build out the whole ecosystem because it's just not there at the moment. So in the future, hopefully you will get your tokens and be able to spend them right away or send them to a smart contract to do something. Once you've got your tokens, you can do anything you like with them. If you can find someone that's prepared to take them as payment, you can spend them. Why are you going to a token? It could be a cryptocurrency, but it uses the Ethereum token interface because it's a common programmable interface that solidity developers are experienced with. So talking about this from a trading perspective, so say for example, say for example, all the streets on the banks sign up to this, sorry, all the banks on the street sign up to this. They each have digital sterling, euro, dollar, yen, for example, and they all trade between themselves. So the exchange rates will essentially be defined OTC, okay, they'll trade with each other and eventually as it starts becoming more prominent within the market, eventually exchanges will start coming up to determine exchange rates between your digital currency. How do you ensure parity between the digital equivalent of the currency and the actual physical real currency? Because for example, I could come to you and I could say, give me a hundred pounds and I want a hundred pounds worth of digital sterling. But for example, it's trading at 86 pounds on an exchange, for example. How do you ensure that parity? So FX is all OTC, across the board. There's, it's that full reserve concept. So economically there's the concept of a partial reserve or a full reserve. What the full reserve does is means that if you've got your tokens, you could exchange them back for the full amount. So let's say you find someone, you're able to buy them for 88 pence on the pound, then that's like the world's greatest arbitrage opportunity. Because you're gonna wanna, I highly recommend you go out and you just buy as many of those guys as you possibly can, because you can exchange them for considerably more worth when you come back to us and get your money back. So that's what stops it happening. The market just stops it from happening. Anybody that's prepared to sell you them at a discount is a real idiot. The really interesting one is gonna happen is if they trade at a premium, are they more valuable than normal pounds because you can interact with them programmatically? My inclination is probably not, but it's possible. So that's what keeps them pegged basically, the full reserve, the fact that you know all times you can come back for your money and they will be exchanged for that amount. In the same way that the Bank of England retains the value of the pound. Quick questions, how about this? Let's say you got 10 million pound worth of coins in circulation, someone sends a million pounds to buy a million pound worth of your tokens. The bank records that money because it was fortunately transferred to you. Won't you have a credit risk of like a million pound hole in your book and your currency is unbalanced by that time? So in that situation, you're talking about the money hits our bank account. We've got the million pounds. We issue the tokens, but the bank issues a recall. Right. At that point, we go into negotiation with the bank. We can also pull those tokens back if we really want to. Like we have as the issuer, like I said, we act like a central bank. What is that token spin spin? You put it back from another third party that's exchanged in. So that's a very good point. So at this point, we need tools to track, you know, what's going on and how to pull this back. But that's exactly why the FCA is involved. That's exactly the same model as I wire you some euros, you wire me some sterling and then someone recalls it. That actually just doesn't happen when you're talking about million pounds. Does that happen with Bitcoin? Sorry? Does that happen with Bitcoin? No, it doesn't. No, that wouldn't happen with Bitcoin. Because, well, it's Bitcoin. In this specific scenario though, there are regulatory agreements in place to handle those kind of situations. In exactly the same way as if I wire you the corresponding amount of euros, you wire me the sterling and then the bank makes a recall. But actually in the kind of banking infrastructure we're talking about, that doesn't happen. Like, one bank can't just recall from a bank account a million pounds. They would have... Does the compliance officer can freeze it? Sorry? The compliance officer can freeze it. Precisely. Yeah. Precisely. They can freeze anything they like at any time they like. If they don't like whatever's going on. And actually in this specific scenario, the FCA would be pretty pissed with us if we didn't freeze it. So... What happened to the first hand? Sorry? So here's a really interesting one. I'll be interested in hearing people's thoughts about this afterwards. But there's absolutely nothing to say right now that we couldn't freeze the assets. But that's an interesting question. Do you... People like the fact that we're backfire regulator and the regulator might say, freeze the assets. Freeze the million pounds, freeze the assets, someone will know what's going on. Or someone gets wind, a government gets wind that they may be moving to someone on our sanctions list. Freeze the assets. Here's all, you know, legal stuff to say that you need to do that. I'm not sure how I feel about that. And that's, you know, something that's out there. And that's something actually we're still discussing with regulators. So that's something that we have to put in. Is that a regulatory requirement or not? Because I was speaking like in a situation, if you've got companies using your money and a company that has that money in their possession, and they're using that, and it suddenly gets freeze, you record it. You record the... Oh yeah. Massive problems. Massive problems. We are acutely aware of that. Yeah, so I think that that's an excellent discussion. You guys should move it to the pub later on. Because I do want to get a few more questions. I still see quite a few hands. Yeah, I mean, it's sort of on a related topic, but it seems to me that you're issuing a digital representation of Pound Sterling. You're effectively issuing a security, really. And, you know, one of the reasons that we've been in Bitcoin, and these sorts of things, is that Bitcoin is not a regulated instrument. And the FCA has just said, you know, Bitcoin, whatever, go for your life. We don't care. It's outside of our parameters. As soon as you do this, you're effectively crossing a live wire. And I think it's a very dangerous regulatory territory for you. So, I mean, you do, as you're going into the whole area of issuing securities to retail investors and all this sort of thing, I think it's extremely dangerous. Have you considered all that? So we're very much B2B, so we don't deal directly with consumers. Some of our partners may have consumers and they have to manage those relationships. And we work very closely with the FCA, and they do want to understand every step of the way. What are the risks? How is the ultimate consumer protected, et cetera? So, yeah, the point is that's why we're working very closely with the regulator. We're not trying to do this behind their backs or in an offshore, unregulated environment. The other thing is because I'm a big fan of Bitcoin, by the way, I have Bitcoin on my phone, I think it has its uses. But in terms of mass adoption, I've given lectures on Bitcoin two years ago, three years ago, four years ago, to various audiences. And some of the questions that always come up is, well, who's this backed by? Which government is backing this? How is this regulated? What if the exchange runs away with my money? Who guarantees the exchange rate, et cetera? So we're trying to, you know, Bitcoin is great. I don't have a problem with it. I use it, I recommend it to people. But it has some, let's say niche applications in my view. And what we're trying to do here is to issue, you mentioned the word security from a regulatory perspective, what we're trying to do is called eMoney, which is a different regime. It's actually the same money that's in your PayPal account. It's an eMoney license. Same principle. That's another analogy I like to draw on is the PayPal analogy. Hi, Blockbar. One of the announcements that was made at DevCon in Shanghai recently was by Santander, who seemed to be doing something quite similar to this. I'm afraid I wasn't there, so if anyone can help me understand, is what you're doing the same? Or if so, if not, what are the differences? So according to the media reports, it's very similar. I don't know how far they are in terms of pilots, in terms of partners. And I'm not sure, because there was an announcement at DevCon where the company doing it was regulated out of Panama. So I'm not sure if that's the same one or if that's a different one. The Santander scenario, my understanding is that what they've done is, if you imagine, the reserve is obviously quite key to this, and you can obviously tell by the number of questions around it, what Santander have done is they have an internal pool of money. And if you want to wire money to someone else at Santander right now, that's going to be a pretty, that's actually going to be a surprisingly laborious process. They've actually almost done internal netting, so that all of the money is kind of sat in a central pot. And then if you want to wire money to someone else at Santander, you can do it and it's done on the blockchain. So it's kind of a similar system, but it's private in the context of Santander. That's my understanding of it. Please jump in if... Okay, one more question. Thank you. Just one quick question about KYC. Do people who deposit and withdraw money, are they the only people who have to be KYC in your system or do any recipient of the token have to be KYC'd? And one more question, can anyone become KYC'd? If I live in Nigeria, say, will you KYC me or are there limits to that as well? Thank you. Only those interacting with us need to be KYC'd. So if you want tokens or you want to retrieve tokens, they're the only points of KYC required. Same as with your bank, again, back to cash. If for, in order to open the bank account, they're going to KYC check you. Once you pull your cash out of your bank account, do whatever you like with it. And there are no fees. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. There are no fees right now. So can we just take this afterwards? You can talk to them, they'll be here. So we've got other presentations too. We already KYC check people all over the world, including Nigeria. So that's just part of our regular business model that we do doing FX.