 You cannot be taking the same advice that your parents are giving you. I feel that for our generation, it's more important to let our assertive personalities shine through and maybe tone down the looks a little bit. They feel like they were put in there sore as decoration. I am an immigrant. Oh, the gender wars of America. According to this new study, Asian American women are hitting the bamboo ceiling the hardest in corporate America. And the question is, what can we do about this? Yeah, this is going viral in a lot of different circles right now for a lot of different reasons. Long story short, they're saying that Asian women have a 80% decrease from their middle tier representation to their top tier representation. That is even in proportion to other groups. So that is the biggest ceiling that they're hitting out of everybody, a bamboo ceiling and they're hitting the woman's ceiling. Here to discuss this article with us today is an Asian friend in corporate that is a female, Ruth. Hey, y'all, I'm Ruth. Thanks for having me. And real quick, what are the reactions to the article? Cause there's a ton, right? Some people are with it. Some people are against it. Some people are arguing about something completely outside. Yeah, I mean, I think first off, guys, please hit that like button and check out other episodes of the Hop Hop Boys because from frivolous to serious, we're talking about it all. But I guess reactions from you, Ruth, being a female corporate, you're pretty much at the mid-level right now. You have very, very high ambitions to go higher in your company. You would want to enter the top of the pyramid. 100%. But I guess statistically, this study is showing that it's unlikely. Statistically. I'm not saying that I want you to, but how does that make you feel? It's not surprising. I mean, disappointing, but not surprising. Just growing up, there was absolutely no Asian woman around me in mid-level corporate, much less at the top. Not just real life, but in media as well. So I feel like even Asian girls my age, no one was even dreaming to get to the top. Yeah, for sure. I mean, they listed off the perpetual foreigner myth as one, the perception that older Asian women are tiger moms, the perception that younger Asian women are hypersexualized, and the perception that all Asians in general culturally are not assertive and bad leaders and possibly unlikable. So I guess when you look at these reasons, I guess the immediate one that stands out to me, because I think the perpetual foreigner one and the not assertive one could apply to all Asians, both male and female, I think the one that strikes me as very different from males is the hypersexualized one. So I guess, do you have any thoughts on that particular aspect? Yeah, I believe Asian women tend to be more hypersexualized in all industries. However, it can really pull you back in certain industries. For example, in looks-based industries, such as fashion, media, beauty, more creative industries, you definitely wanna be seen as attractive, clean, put together, however being hypersexualized can lead to you not being taken as seriously. But then there's also other industries where I've heard from other women's experiences. They feel like they were put in there sore as decoration because they're so hypersexualized. Realistically, I guess, does anything come to your mind of a possible solution or something that can combat that? Is that mean you can't look good? I mean, I don't think that's a solution of trying to make yourself look worse, right? But I guess right off the bat, how can all Asians get involved in helping in that? I guess, does anything come to mind? Yeah, what role does anybody, is it Asian women, is it society, is it Asian men? If Asian women, not just in corporate, but obviously society, movies, media, TV, even in high school, I remember Asian women got hypersexualized, can there be anything that's done about it or is it, you just have to play your cards like Wendy Dang and use it to your advantage, I guess? I always advocate for playing your cards. However, I don't think that is the right solution for everyone, for the average Asian woman just trying to make it in America. I think something we can all do is to just come across as more corporate, more professional with our looks and not trying to be like victim blaming or anything. But I feel that for our generation, it's more important to let our assertive personalities shine through and maybe tone down the looks a little bit when we're in professional settings in order to really get other people to see us more seriously. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, you know, like we said, there's a lot of like harsh things or this truth or that truth. I'm just completely unaware of because actually I'm not from the corporate world. I mean, do you think there was another comment that said, I think being a woman has more to do with this ratio in proportion than even being an Asian woman. Do you agree with that? It really depends on the industry as well as where in the US, if you are in the US, you're located. You're saying the geography and the regional attitudes. Yeah, yeah. So currently I live in Manhattan. I live and work here, but I've also lived and worked in the South and the Midwest. And in those regions, I noticed that when I was working in industries such as CPG, pharma, oil and gas, the people there, they would always be making comments like, hey, let me guess where you're from, you know, it wasn't always like them trying to hit on me or making some weird sexual remark. Whereas I feel like here with such a larger Asian population, I really don't get any remarks or discrimination based on my race. Right, that's really interesting. And you do work what like in a male driven sector of a female industry, right? Correct, correct. Yeah, I mean, like I said, I think it can get hyper complicated even to that detail, Andrew. Of course, another argument we got to get to in the comments section, Andrew, the classic Asian male versus Asian female gender wars. Oh, the gender wars of America. The gender wars of America. Somebody said, how come this article made it seem like only Asian women experienced this gigantic drop off between middle tier and high tier? Asian men go through it too. What the heck? No, definitely. I mean, as we know, and it's no mystery that Asian people across the board get fractionated. I mean, in business and politics are not pure meritocracies. It's not just a numbers game. It's not like, oh, we just test score. We bring high results, so we're gonna move up. People have to see you as a leader. People have to like you. People have to feel you, right? I mean, and I think there's a lot of maybe legit and maybe illegitimate reasons for that. I do believe Asians are the most underrepresented at the high levels in comparison to their proportions at the middle level of any group. I believe that white males are the most overrepresented. Is it because they're just better leaders or is it the perception or is it nepotism or is it racism or what is it? Do Asians lack some leadership? Obviously this is a stereotype, right? Yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, inherently it is the way that Asians are raised. For example, I am an immigrant. My parents and I came to America when I was very young. So they taught me to always mind my own business, keep my head down and stay out trouble. And for, I'd say most Asians that works well throughout grade school and college because it's all very grades and academia based. But once they enter the workforce, I feel like there's disappointment because they're thinking, why am I not succeeding as much as I used to, you know? And it's because if they enter, say like consulting, finance, it's a lot of connections based. You really have to like schmooze your way into. You're saying the structures of rising up the corporate ladder can differ depending on the industry greatly from the structures of academia. And maybe Asians are coached for the academic game, but who's coaching them for, I guess the corporate ladder rise game. Yeah, the way that most Asians are coached throughout their life, it can work in tech, you know, especially big tech. Because in those industries, it's like you can either write the code or you can't. But when it comes to more industries that are dominated by legacies, by nepotism, such as these old financial institutions, whether it's bulge bracket or boutique, a lot of it, the positions are passed down, you know? Like, hey, I guess- I guess how does the Asian develop those skill sets if we're saying, you know, and by the way, guys, this is broad stroke, I get it, everybody's family's different, maybe your dad was an exec or whatever, but like, you know, conventional Confucian teachings would not teach you those mindsets to rise up those ladders, right? In particularly, like you said, finance, banking, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, I think if you notice that you're dissatisfied with your career, you really need to push yourself out of the comfort zone. And I know that sounds very cliche, but you cannot be taking the same advice that your parents are giving you, even though they're very hardworking, respectable people who are doing their best. That advice won't always translate over to the huge monster that is like the Western corporate world. But rule, like, you know, when I come here, I come here with a college degree, and that's how I made it to America. Without the degree, I would have never been granted this chance. So why don't you just do what I did? Does it not work that way? I'd say my biggest piece of advice is definitely take risks, travel if you can. For example, before I moved to New York, I was in the South, hated my life there, hated where I was, hated my job. And I was- There's some nice people in the South, by the way. Dang, I can't believe you said that. That's a bottle, bro. No, continue to do. But I took the entire summer just to travel alone to all the major cities on the East Coast and just show up to networking events alone. Oh, wow. And just like test the boundaries, because it's like, I don't even live there. If I mess up, I'm never gonna see those people again. I can just use it as a learning experience and to really build my network with the ones that stick around. Yeah, no, that's dope. I think a lot of people, they understand the logic behind that, but obviously going, executing on it, it takes a certain amount of boldness, willpower, and just ability to drive something through to the finish. Real quick, before we get onto the last comment, quick question, Ru, I think you had told us that the networking opportunities in the South might have to deal with going to breweries more, even shooting, golfing, all these very like more Southern, or just very like more masculine, sporty things. How were you as a woman who doesn't really do that type of stuff? Like how are you able to find networking opportunities to make up for the lack of hanging with the bros, to be honest? So I would commonly go to the network events at the bars, the previous company I was at, they actually had a bar in the office. So I would just educate myself on whatever they were talking about, whether it be sports, like golf, or whatever hobbies that they had, and just integrate myself more because I wasn't actively participating in those things, but if you plan the effort to educate yourself on how to speak on it and how to be agreeable, they will see you in a better light. What do you think about this other comment that obviously comes from a more extreme end of the gender wars comment? There was like, see Asian girls, I guess that white adjacency and dating all those white guys only takes you so far, huh? You guys are getting fractionated at the top of the pyramid, just like us, huh? I mean, I don't think that Asian women who are out here marrying white guys are necessarily doing it to advance and corporate. It doesn't always translate like that. I feel that Asian women, they tend to be more social and to be more comfortable placing themselves in more social situations. And you see that, right? Because you work in engineering, managing engineers. Yeah, but I feel that Asian men still shouldn't be mad at Asian women for that. In the end, we are all very similar generations, whether it's like immigrants or like second gen, and we should really be trying to find ways to uplift each other and encourage each other at micro levels to really make more of an impact within our own companies. I think that's a pretty good perspective, Andrew, and obviously, as we know, Andrew, just because a girl's like hinge app is going crazy, that does not translate to like an easier rise into the C-suite. No, I mean, I think this is a complicated conversation, but we don't, and this is maybe just a thought to have, but it's like, I guess, you know, it is believed essentially, and a lot of people agree that Asian women, they have easier time socially, oftentimes than Asian men, at least integrating themselves into other groups, or especially if you're an attractive Asian woman. I mean, being attractive in any way, you know, generally gets you more attention, but I guess like socially, it seems like they get a lot of attention, but that attention is not always good, especially in like the corporate space, right? When you want to be taken seriously as a leader and things like that. I always say, man, why MMV, your mileage may vary. Like you said, it's dependent on the region, the sector, your job, your boss, is your boss a man or a woman, and what their perspective is. I guess let's just get into some other stuff real quick. Ru, you want to enter the upper echelons of corporate America yourself, right? Are you hopeful that this number will change? Because I don't know if you, do you see this article and you view it as like, oh man, there's an 80% drop off comparison to other groups? Are you like, nah, like it's gonna change? I'm very hopeful, and I feel that I can be more hopeful if more people implement microwaves at work to uplift the other Asian women around them. For example, if there's other quieter Asian women that I am working with, I tend to take extra time to shine light on what they have to say and ask for their opinions more in the middle of meetings if they're not gonna do it themselves. And I feel that that brings forth a better light to all of us. I see what you're saying. And I think that's one of the best things that anybody can do for any group in corporate America that is maybe feels a little bit more uncomfortable or feels marginalized. They don't feel like it's their space so they're kind of shrinking instead of being people. Exactly, and sometimes you just need that mentor or leader whether it's an Asian woman, Asian woman, or Asian woman and anybody else or just woman to woman or a man to whoever, like just if you have that mentor or anybody who can kind of like throw you an assist, I think those things are huge, right? And I feel like that's a good way of helping someone out without making it too obvious and even overstepping. Ultimately, my takeaways are like, and tell me if you agree with me or not, it just like matters the industry. There's like certain identities that were viewed as very disadvantageous like two decades ago in America that maybe if you're in a certain fields, it's a great advantage in 2023. And there's certain identities that obviously don't work in other industries because those industries are more old world or from 100 or 200 years ago. So I think that that is like a huge factor, like the placement of your game character and what you constitute or your capacities and what game map you like choose to play. And then I guess my second question that I wanted to ask is do you think that Asians are just gonna accept in our generation being in the middle to maybe upper middle tier in a company? Because it's like comfortable enough, you know? I think realistically a lot of Asians have accepted it. Just to be realistic, I however, I'm gonna keep being delusional and keep like striving for the top. But something that we can do is to, prepare the younger generations to try to get to the top because usually they have had more foundations than America. They've had the generations here to build more phone legacy for them and to build those like building blocks, especially within corporations. And my major takeaway is like, I think that when you think about corporate America, it's very big. It's not just finance in New York. It's not just accounting in LA. It's corporations all across America, right? And I think that different corporations, different industries move slower in this sense than others. Obviously, like we say, tech for Asian women, very friendly space for Asians. If for Asians in general, for all types of people, it's very friendly. And then like, you know, maybe certain parts of finance or whatever, beauty or, there's so many industries and so many corporations that I guess the truth is that, yeah, depending on how old school they think, it might be slower to adapt to this type of thing. So I guess what you did back when you were working in the South, is like you were like, okay, let me try to like get into what they're doing. But maybe since you moved to Manhattan, you won't have to do that as much, right? And I think that that is important to note. And that kind of leads me to a piece of advice that you always tell people. What's that advice for people who are trying to make it? I'd say if you are in a Western world, definitely try to go for a corporation, a large corporation that has divisions in Asia because they are going to be more diverse, inclusive. And also you'll be able to network with the people in Asia, the teams there, and find more role models and possible mentors, as opposed to say a small company that's very regional based just in the U.S. Yeah, I think that if you're gonna be an entrepreneur, which is like rising up a large structure, make sure you pick the right structure to be an entrepreneur within. But Andrew, we know a lot of people that if that route is not working out and they felt like they got capped out, they're actually leaning more towards like entrepreneurial or like quasi-entrepreneurial things, right? Yeah, for sure. When you become a partner at a firm. Entrepreneurship is the name of the game. It's the hot thing right now. A lot of people are going their own way, building their own way. It's easier to build a team. It's easier to have a global team now over with the power of the internet. So I think a lot of people are opting out for that when they feel like they've hit a ceiling in corporate America. But either way, guys, I think when it comes to this article feeling like it's men versus women, I'm like, I think men, Asian men and Asian women, we all agree we have our own qualms or problems or issues that we're all dealing with. I think at the end of the day, we all come from Asian families. We should support each other as much as we can and at least definitely not hold each other back. You know what I mean? But I do think that there's empathy and understanding on both sides to go around. But either way, guys, we're gonna wrap it up right there. Please leave your comments down below what you think about this drop off, this bamboo ceiling that all Asians hit, but particularly also Asian women pretty hard. So I think that that's totally acknowledged right here in this video. Yeah, so let us know, check out the article, just ton of discussions on this online. Huge shout out to you. Thank you, Ru. And until next time, we out. Peace.