 Good evening everyone. I'm going to call this meeting of the Development Review Board of the City of Montpelier to order My name is Daniel Richardson. I serve as chair the other members for my right are Kevin O'Connell Deb Markowitz Meredith Crandall staff Kate McCarthy Ryan Kane Tom Kester And the first item of business is approval of the agenda Does anyone have a motion to approve the agenda or do they say one wish to? Modify the agenda with an addition So Motion by Deb and a second second second by Tom Day discussion discussion point on the agenda We have been notified that item 5 on the list has been withdrawn and will not be reviewed tonight and item 5 on the list is 41 College Street Vermont College of Fine Arts for anyone who might be here for that right now It's gonna yeah, we'll take that we can take that up formally But I actually yeah, that's that's what I was I was gonna mention it Okay, so yeah, we can do it here now. So if anyone's here for the 41 College Street that application has been withdrawn It's been completely withdrawn. So there will be new notice When they refile a fresh application All right, so let me offer a friendly amendment to the motion for the agenda to remove item 5 So moved Accepted okay any further discussion Hearing none all those in favor of the agenda as modified, please raise your right hand We have an agenda The only comments from the chair tonight is I want to recognize that Mark Woods are illustrious member and Soon to be departed former member Yeah, I'm sorry to say I feel real sad about it because I'm pretty new on the board But I've taken a job in Boston and I'll be going back and forth But it's it'll be too difficult to make sure I'm here on Monday nights Well, thank you very much. I'll miss you all and there'll be another time when We'll keep the spot open Yeah Well, thank you very much for for helping us, you know with this this transition from The old board to the new board as well as the new regulations and you know, it's been it's been It's been a pleasure on this end. Have you as a member of the board? Thank you and congratulations. I mean Good reason to move up. Those are the only comments from the chair the approval of the minutes for April 15th 2019 Myself Kevin Kate Tom Ryan We're here So we do have a quorum You have a motion to approve the minutes or modify them. I have one question for the other business In the Caledonia spirits says it did that they would like to paint the stillery in very large letters Was it they were gonna paint or were they gonna install letters? I don't remember my understanding was paint Okay Then with that burning question answered do I have a motion to approve the minutes of April 15th? So moved motion by Ryan Second second my Tom all those in favor and eligible to vote for the approval of the April 15th minutes, please raise your right They are fruit. Thank you very much and Thank you all for your patience with that housekeeping With a removal of 41 College Street that brings us to 217 North Street as our first application of the evening Mr. Sheba you want to come forward Well, we're I swear you in I just want to get a sense to is anyone else here to speak or comment on the 217 North Street application Okay What I'll do is I'll have both of you put your both under oath for any of the statements you're about to offer and what we'll do Mr. Per Sam Perry Per Sampieri, I apologize is that Mr. Sheba will have an opportunity to go first to present his case will have I mean to present his application We'll have an opportunity for questions from the board if you have any questions I'll I'll make sure to have an opportunity to allow you to ask them afterwards if you want to put forward any further consideration or Evidence there'll be an opportunity as well, so but In normal practice we allow the applicant to go first But we'll put you both under oaths just so we don't have to deal with that later on anyone else about this application All right, so those of you testifying raise your right hand You solemnly swear or affirm that testimony you're about to give for the matter under consideration She'll be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth under the pains and penalties of perjury And all right, so the shape of the floor is yours. Why don't you walk us through the application? And submit any additional documents you wish to give Something Okay, I live that Planting to build This year for the steep slopes Documents that's for the final This I've prepared myself and John Mars from greener engineering and it's also the letter Yeah For my mother Yeah Access So there was a driveway that used to go up and instead of going to the left is where your house is it would go to the right Right So as far as a driveway is concerned And this is some of a random spot to drop in but nevertheless raised by your issue How much of the driveway is changing as a result of this? The proposed parking spot I would say Looking at drawing numbered a Oh Three proposed site plan which seems to have the parking laid out on it and so So I see the existing parking you go over a little bridge Yeah, and the two two spots in front of your your house But then the other and I presume that the blue shaded area is the driveway That's pretty much currently, okay, so that's that's for the most part as it exists currently Okay Okay, so But Well, I know that one of the comments that the neighbor had passed along Was the question of whether or not that parking space was necessary or could be moved Right But the the comments were a little bit more pointed than that The He's suggested in an email that was included on a packet to remove the parking spot proposed for the west side of the building near his property line and Replace it with a second parking spot to the north of the building Where you currently? You the applicant currently proposed one parking spot This will serve both to prevent soil compaction from impacting the roots of a large tree along the property line and To eliminate views of a parked car from my property Fine with you retaining a bit of stub here that could be used for vehicle turnaround You can yeah, okay, so this this sort of and just to orient so going back to a A03 This this spot here. We have one car that is this is this is essentially the north area You can put two cars there and I mean is this something where if this was sort of evened out So it was a rectangle as opposed to this sort of Yeah Trapezoidal figure You could park two cars there and What you're saying is this this stub already exists to a large extent you You can it can already fit there. Yeah, okay, so you're not putting in anything new You're just identifying that's a spot. Yeah, and again on this I'm wondering where the I don't see on this drawn where the new structure will be Lady relating to that part and spot Oh Just as you know staff making a comment here it looks like the the stub that's going around the West side of the house You're actually proposing shortening that and maybe filling in with grass or the path To make that shorter for where people can actually drive You know much further up, you know, I could drive much further up You know if I wanted to And so yeah, that'll be shortened significantly and then there'll be a Okay So think the It probably makes sense to go straight for the steep slope Which is the main driver the application as you correctly identified and so Just for I think both your consumption as well as Publix You know prior to in a interim Zoning by-law change steep slopes 30% or greater. We're just simply undevelopable in in the city under the 2018 zoning by-laws those have been modified however to allow for the development with a Grading plan that signed and sealed by a licensed engineer and a hearing to address some of the Concerns about the purposes of the steep slopes provision Which is to protect public safety and property to minimize the potential for erosion runoff flooding and degradation of water quality And to avoid the increased cost of providing services to remote difficult to access land And so there's a number of issues and as you correctly planned out as well You're the first one to go through this. So just I think as a threshold question What portions of this project? Are the 30% slopes It would be that a for yeah And a 05 gives you a sense with the house You know I initially prior to having them come out And gone out there with my transit and shots and elevations and I came up with As I said dependent on where you take it and what angle it's you know So pretty much the majority of the house Right, but yeah, the long axis if you look at a 5b, you know the longest axis of the building 24% but some of the shorter But for all practical purposes, we're just Well, I mean, you know, we're talking about a 22% slope on the long side is that right? And then a 29% slope Sort of from corner to corner and then a 27% slope So it seems like we're just under that 30% Threshold Okay And so to that end you've submitted a letter from Don Marsh Basically that he's reviewed the topography of the lot Related to the proposed addition of a one-bedroom house at 217 North Street There's some steep slopes and surface water drainage which needs to be addressed However, both these issues have been addressed in revised study site plan so Okay, so now that we understand really we're talking about the house site itself and and to be clear It's just this new house even though some of the steep slopes affect other portions of property It's really only the portion that where you're seeking to build the house Yeah What are the changes that have been made from your initial application to the current one tonight? And could you walk us through what those changes have done? To address the issues. Yeah, primarily a lot of it is in terms of, you know Some of Nick's Concerns, you know in his meeting with his Let's just be just kind of showing, you know, where Kurt really wanted to see the existing And then a variety of details in terms of That's kind of So basically That's what one foot This area is getting steeper. No, it's just this is the proposed is a one foot contour Oh, okay existing as a two foot contour, so it's greater clarity. Okay Thanks Okay So as a result of this Building, I mean, let me start with the question of whether or not this will change any of the slopes from their current configuration to a Sharper configuration I hope not The plan is to basically just like put the building in the slope so that it looks like it sort of And then there'll be some minor minor site alterations Well, I think that's That's leading into my next question, which is, you know, given that you're not seeking to change the overall slope You are putting a building which will essentially act as a Block for any water that currently just sort of runs off or goes into the ground What is could you describe the plan for the storm water? Runoff that's going to be affected by the construction of this building. Yeah, I mean, I think the so the current runoff is It just kind of comes down Streams and But you know the building is kind of designed to sort of wedge into the hillside So There is some natural undulations in the existing slope But basically there'll be an uphill swale Along the sort of east side of the building to catch the majority of any water coming down the slope Directive over towards a little rain garden near that sort of existing parking area and then Stream sometimes it's dry sometimes it's very very active That any overflow from that will then go Into the stream and then the other little sort of smaller Swale on the south side that kind of loops around the west side of the building we'll probably see a lot less of the You know the way I see it is the majority of will be caught by that one. It's on the east side directing it straight towards the Stream and whatever kind of other elements would be to keep any And then gutter down spouse Okay, and the second rain garden that's being proposed What's effectively the west side? And that's that's a new change from the original application. Yeah. Yeah It was further up along the property line, okay And is that intended to is that to why was it moved on the outside? Okay No What's the square footage of the house well the footprint is 734 Okay I should know this but it says that the The gutter downspout is tied into perimeter drain and where's the perimeter drain It's gonna go out comes daylight basically into that Into the the westerly rain garden on the problem the northern one. Okay. Thanks. Pretty much everything And I'll note that you also submitted an email from the city engineer Saying that with these revisions. He was satisfied with his concerns Okay So Have you done like a cut fill kind of analysis for seems like you're gonna end up taking a lot out to put Your cellar hole and put the building in essentially a full-height basement all in the back and so where is all that fill going? Okay What a couple years ago During construction, do you have an erosion control plan? Okay, so the red is the silk fence and so these will be these are the silk fences that will be erected during construction And is it the idea that you construct the building then install the Swales and the rain gardens And then the soap fences are removed after Okay So I'm just going through we've been touching upon these I think one of the points that the Afghan is expected to meet is to limit the amount of disturbance clearing of existing natural vegetation and impervious surface Will there be any blasting? Okay, so Okay, so this is mostly just soil And You may so the limit the amount of disturbance clearing of the existing natural vegetation and pervious surface to order To minimize potential for erosion storm water runoff flooding and water quality impairment Part of the silk fences. Is there any other sort of erosion control planned for the during construction? I have water bars and driveway Safe No, there's not I mean we might do something You know, we might even put the upper swale on me Rough draft prior to the minute just so that any water coming down the hill during Construction not gonna go straight into the foundation right right needle. We'll probably do that swale first Okay So you're not creating a slope that steeper and 30% You're preserving distinctive natural features the general topography of the site and existing natural presentation Testimonies that you're putting this sort of at an angle to where the the water flows It's a limited footprint of 750 square feet Maintain or reduce the pre-existing rate and retain the pattern of storm water runoff leaving the property So as a currently now it let me ask this is is the When the rain gardens are installed and the swales are installed Do you expect more less or the same amount of sort of storm water runoff from the property the same or less? Okay Keep more water on my land Well This will betray something I ignore it's about rain gardens But are they expected to act as our sort of retention pond quality on a very small scale to a certain extent You know, I think it's basically just kind of slows it down You know, you can use them for you know Biosuit, yeah, just kind of hold it for a minute. You know, it's not a Okay It slows it down and reduces the Erosion because it slows the water and the silt has time to settle out as well And I know that one of Department of Public Works concerns was making sure that what runoff there was Didn't flow into the road. So directing this into the stream. I think will probably reduce I know that was one of the things that I think Kurt mentioned in some of the comments, right I mean, I know that there's there've been and other properties severe runoff issues coming off that hill. I Wonder if we could explore that for a minute. I have I live up the street as you know And I remember Here comes some anecdote. I don't know what caused this but I'll mention it to two years ago There was a pretty bad look with two years ago a year ago really bad blowout I'm sure you remember with lots of cones up and some erosion and Flashing lights working on it at night. Does this sound am I remembering this correctly like a really a really bad runoff event that damaged the road Well, there is basically some the origin are you thinking of that stream in particular the crosses in my property I can't say for sure what caused that and and I don't know that your property caused it I but what I'm getting at is that that's I do know very well like a very complicated couple of parcels next to each other It's one of the reasons we had a hard time subdividing it five or six years ago So because this is asking about maintaining or reducing the pre-existing rate and retaining the pattern of stormwater runoff leading the property I want to get a sense of whether the way that stormwater leaves the properties Now how that is working considering I noticed that one thing at one time. Yeah, in my experience I've lived there for two years now My particular parcel is ultimately not Contributing to a significant like detrimental unfold right off the source the origin of that stream Is a large retention pond uphill that basically collects everything from Murray Hill and To my understanding that is in the process of being upgraded what I've been told from public works I mean, I've been up there when it is like that stream that goes through my property looks like white water rapids And it's going with the culvert on the North Street I've run up to that retention pond to see like if this thing's totally full and if it's Doing its job and just empty and water is fire closing out of the outlet on so Okay, so it's a stomach issue. Yeah, I'm hearing if anything I'm trying to help Keep as much water on my property as possible slow it sink it spread it Okay, thanks, so thank you for answering that question considering I had sort of just a partial observation I feel like I came back from DRB one night and there was all sorts of activity. I may be misremembering It's probably really long DRB meeting, but I know that to be flashed. It seems likely. Yeah. Yeah Okay So The next issue is whether or not to produce this project produces a final grade that's compatible with the surrounding natural terrain As I'm understanding from your testimony that this final project essentially putting this house into The terrain but the surrounding terrain will largely stay as it is that sort of undulates down with the general downhill direction Create a harmonious transition between great slopes and the natural terrain You're not really creating not terracing or doing any I think there'll be some minor Landscaping features but nothing Well actually that raises a question, you know with the house itself is there expected to be sort of a single grade around the house Well, I mean, I think like, you know, the east side will have a sway out coming up to it You know each each side will have you know, if I can slope it slightly away Sloped in two directions, you know, for instance the sort of south face, you know, 16-foot long Slope away, but then I'll also be slopey Parallel to the wall, you know the foundation is fairly complicated stepped foundation Right Not like you're putting a box on a hill And I'll note it note that the swales themselves are run fairly close to the building itself So those will help with any transitions from grating away to the sort of more natural topography One of the details on a5b with the east wall of the building swale Right next to the foundation all the way down to the perimeter drain, so at the ridge Okay Creating a harmonious transition between graded slopes and the natural terrain We've covered that avoid creating continuous unbroken slopes or linear slope Excuse me linear slopes, and so that's really the purpose of the swales, right this too But Weathers can contour graded slopes by varying the slope increments to produce a final grade that underlates both vertically and horizontally Think we've covered in your testimony very cut and fill banks and terraces to provide produce a final grade that is a visual interest and allows for naturalistic landscaping and I think that also goes to your testimony as well as to the the sort of complicated foundation of this with the stepped levels and The final one asks to consider use of retaining walls and terracing rather than cut and fill banks But I don't think that's relevant here. I mean the wall is essentially designed I Know other So and then There's actually sorry There's four more points, and I think they're all largely covered That's very the pad elevations on site with multiple structures of all the actual terrain Which you testified it will Provide roads and drives of falling system contours. You're actually not providing any new roads or drives You're working with the existing ones that have served largely survived several years of flood inundation coming off of the hill But if you wish to It does look like there's a little flattening that's going on in the proposed westerly Parking spot by the road if that remains even decided to do that during this phase You know, it's not an ideal parking spot now Angle You can fit a car there, but you know if we in the future decide to sort of Flatten it out, you know, we would probably take down a big tree, which I don't want to do Well, I think we'll revisit that as well. I think one of the concerns that's driving the neighbor. It's not in on It's not new rational concern is you know the transition having and Part of that is going to been where that the neighbor's house is located in proximity to this boundary line as well And and whether if there is if there is an existing sort of parking space there You know, I think one of the realities is that we tend to park where there are parking spaces and so You know whether there this is shown as a parking space or not the fact that it's Existing there as a driveway short of it being turned into something else Well, I think over time lead to that being used as a part parking space With not by you then by maybe a less punctilious successor and title but nevertheless, I think you know, it's it's something we have to be concerned about and and Address and in cut at it from several different ways Okay So we'll come back to that when we talk about landscaping Use compacted building forms and or multi-story buildings to minimize building footprint. I think that's your testimony there It's a is it a one-story house, or yeah, it's essentially one story. There's like a four or five steps up, you know Southeast corner there it's the foundation wall will be like this, you know But Okay, and use split or multi-level building forms that step up or down the slope, I think you've just addressed that All right, so I Think we can move on unless anyone else has any questions about the design standards and the steep slopes and then Yes, if you wouldn't mind coming up to the microphone if you had a specific question about the steep slopes and design standard Well, I was just wondering Is all of the water from all of the gutters Going to be directed to the rain garden to the northwest. Yeah to the north one Northeast Okay, yeah, because the majority of you know, the Okay, and one other question you referred to What was formerly a driveway going along the property boundary? Are you planning to avoid running heavy equipment up that I mean that's during construction To a certain extent we're gonna have to like, you know, we'll keep them Close to you know, it's a far away from the piece as possible We're planning to use It's gonna be precision Excavation for sure, you know, there's there's measures you can use to help prevent compaction of boots, you know putting down a layer of Like bark mulch and then also like Most excavators have big mass Compaction kind of spreads out the way a little bit We do all we can to sort of protect Those trees Okay, I appreciate that. I mean, they'll have to be in the setting. I mean, maybe we will I think the majority of the Ultimately, we're gonna be building sort of a soil pile Where the current parking is and sort of accessing from that way just the nature of how we have to date the footings Yeah, and then once the excavators in So we'll be able to do most of the digging from the ground We'll do our best to avoid Impacting that area. Yeah, so you're not planning to do any grading of no, I think essentially it's like, you know Just enough digging to cut where the foundation is gonna be we're not gonna be cutting anything out over near those trees You know, I spoke to another in addition to the excavator that I work with Thank you, that's all I had. Okay. Thank you just with regard to boot compaction. We just got some Booklets in our office too. If you wanted to come in and look at them Compaction booklet Never dull moment Okay So moving along Section three zero zero eight talks about erosion control And It talks about having a professional professionally prepared erosion control plan And I believe your testimony was that Don Marsh had assisted you in developing this The So this is actually I think a question for the board and I'll ask You know, this is one of our first Issues that we've dealt with with the erosion control. It does talk about how the erosion control plan must be professionally prepared unlike the Steep slopes where we have an actual sort of standard of saying of engineer sign and seal saying This is this works. The question is What do we feel as a board is necessary for an erosion control plan to be quote-unquote professionally prepared? And I think will your testimony is this sort of it's both Don coming out giving advice but it's really something you've developed in consultation with him as well as referring to the erosion and Sediment control plans and he did stamp Okay, so these are these are stamp Oh, sorry, yep, I see that right here, okay Yeah Are we satisfied with what's been presented this has been stamped by license in there So yeah, we can kick the can yeah, I think we can no no, I'm sorry. I missed his stamp on I missed the stamp on that one I apologize, that's it's smaller on that one. Yeah, so in this with this application I'm Meredith. I'm directing this question to you with this does this require professional engineers certification or does it require a? A review and approval of the review something short of the actual professional Certification it literally Right, it literally says professionally prepared. That's all the guidance. It gets so great So when we've had other since I've been here when we've had to require erosion control plans It's been for say like the parking garage project where there's been a big enough budget that they have gotten Somebody who is an erosion control specialist to prepare the plan a completely separate contractor But it doesn't say that has to happen it just says professionally prepared right I'm just concerned that I think it's I think it's great that we That we are attentive to the details about what's going to happen with that storm water And take every possible measure to ensure That it's not going to cause damage, but I think we also need to be concerned about the fact This is a 734 square foot project. We don't want it to be a you know $750,000 budget. Yep, and this is this but this is one reason I this isn't a question I can answer so figuring out what your standard is for professionally prepared especially for a project of this size Right and and I guess brought up especially before we had the stamped engineered, right? And I just hadn't looked at the second page with the big engineering stamp, so I may have Asked a question that I've been answered, but I think we do exceeded on this project Kevin But I share I mean I think the concern we have to think about as a board going forward is you know Projects like this and projects as we open up to 30% slow to development, you know erosion is an Big part of that and it's a sensitive area We do want to be attentive to the details, but I think that we want to make sure right Overdo right no, I Well, and that also I know you sort of want to kick it down the road a little bit because we have a plan that's stamped But in my book that means that the next application that comes down the road I'm going to suggest that if they can easily get an engineer to stamp it. Yeah one thing I mean I we don't need to decide this year, but I share Kevin sentiment that professionally prepared is gonna Very the requirements of that are going to vary based on the complexity of the project I think it might Interpretation of this is that it's really aimed at something that's not just sketched out on some graph paper by the homeowner And just with the word swale or something water stop here, but I but I think you know as well as testified here the Substance of this he prepared as a designer and builder who is a professional in this field and I would say that Given this project, even if Don Marsh had not stamped this that it would satisfy me Thank you. That's one board member. That's the kind of that's the kind of input I just need to somebody who's collecting these applications and figuring out when they're complete and can come And it's not to be on the board It seems to be there's a variety of kinds of professionals that could weigh in if the goal is you know You used to not be able to build at all. Yeah, I like married So so this is something now that we're oh, you know the board is Allowing this in town is allowing and so you've got to take an extra step So could be a landscape architect who can just say yes in their experience as landscaping and this will take care of erosion Right. I mean Well, I was just gonna say an experienced contractor. Yeah Yeah, and I think that our assessment could potentially vary depending on the complexity of the project But there will be cases where we won't understand how complex a project is without a professional opinion Yes, and so that may be a catch that we find ourselves in needing to understand better Thank you for this discussion just so that I have a little sense of when good When I might say oh, you may have to come twice, but let's try it That's Microphone Well, you offering substantive testimony on Okay, no, I think we can just take that as a comment Because I just the discussion about precedent going forward for steep slope application I think one thing I noticed maybe I missed it in my review But the source of the existing Contours I Don't know if you got to update a bit more I think we're all just asking with the source where did you get to existing that was a survey that I bought the property Make sure we have a reference to where those come from I was good to update a source Yeah, okay Does that give you guidance going forward it does thank you and that's a good good point Rob about updating the source of said Contour Alliance Okay At this point, I think DPW their comments have and concerns have been satisfied Mr. Herstamp area is there any other comments you wish to offer or questions, please You consider stand in the microphone, whichever yeah, I Can stand if you're we whatever you're more comfortable with Well first I want to thank the applicant will the city staff and the board members for Considering my comments. I hired stone environmental to come out and take a look at the property and make some recommendations as to what could be done to the plans to Try to prevent Damage to my property from storm water And I just wanted to put things and I think that the applicant has done a good job Addressing those concerns and I commend him for that I just wanted to briefly put things in perspective So you get an idea of the impact of this project on my property the property boundary as you can see cuts on a diagonal and My backyard is basically right below that diagonal property boundary And it's also much lower than the property boundary There's a steep embankment there from my backyard going up to his property My garage is right below Where the new proposed rain garden is and my house is just a little bit south of there So I mean this really impacts my backyard views from my home and my backyard My primary concerns are number one the possibility of stormwater runoff You've got a steep hillside From which a tremendous number of trees have been removed over the course of the development of will's lot and The lot next door and I think it's really unfortunate that so many trees have been removed The first developer had one idea for how to develop the property He removed a lot of trees Then we'll had another idea as to how he wanted to develop his lot more trees were removed And now the few remaining trees in this area near the proposed new dwelling unit Are right along the property line and there are four very large trees. I think they're maple trees in Proximity to where he wants to put the parkings the parking spot there and You know, he mentioned that that was an existing driveway at one time I'm not sure about that. I think he might have been right There was a house on the back of my property that was taken down before 1958 so there there may have been a grade running up in that direction It was actually vegetated before will built his main residence when that construction took place the vegetation was that had grown in in that area was removed and My concern with the proposed parking spot there Is the impact on the few remaining large trees? As we know Driving and parking vehicles over tree roots Compacts the soil and is not good for tree health The effects may not show up for many years, but it's not good for the trees health And here it just seems like That parking spot really isn't needed so I would prefer to see two Two parking spots over where he's got one on the north side It seems like you can have the same amount of parking without jeopardizing the trees and impacting my view Other than that, you know again, I commend him for Addressing my concerns. He's incorporated the extensions of the swale design and moving the rain garden per stones recommendations and I I really feel like that's probably the best we can do I Think going forward when the rain garden has been constructed and that swale is constructed We need to be careful that we don't disturb the tree roots when we're doing that work I think we need to be flexible about that. I think as I said to you Yeah, of course you don't want to build up too much either because if you bury tree roots tree roots are near the surface so you don't want to bury them too deeply but I appreciate that and We do have a good relationship You know, I think we can work together after the project is completed vegetation And that's all I had I did have some information Responsive to board member McCarthy's earlier question about flooding incidents on North Street I've been there for ten years and there've been two really horrific incidents during that time they may have pre pre dated wills time on the property But I can think of at least twice when the culvert Was totally blown out and North Street was basically like a river And I think there are two problems that continue to exist There's the runoff from the development of a hill that will mention But also there seems to be too much water flowing down a long North Street and Every spring the bottom of my front yard, you know just the strip a couple feet from the street is buried in dirt And that's from water that's flowing down the street And I don't think it's most of it's not coming from wills property. It's coming from up above I'm not sure where it originates, but that's a problem You know this winter the city was out Putting ice melt Like in the drainage ditch along the side of the street Because they were trying to break up the ice so the water would have a place to flow Yeah, that's all I had. Okay. Thank you. That's helpful to me It helps helps my memory of the incident that I was remembering. It was one of the heavy Heavy stormwater lots of silt in your driveway incidents rather than a blown-out culvert. Yeah, so Mr. Perce ampere One question about the car Parking, you know one of the concerns that I expressed before is that to a certain extent this already exists as a driveway And so usually when we're looking at these zoning Permits, you know, it's it's it's a question of minimum parking spaces and you know This is this car isn't this this spot isn't needed as a parking space So we don't necessarily have the ability to say well, you can't use the driveway that exists now But we can put conditions on and I think so part of it is I think Will has expressed an interest in avoiding root compaction that you're concerned about for the existing trees But is there a landscaping if cars were to be in the location that's identified on this map, you know Is there a landscaping issues? from your perspective That would help mitigate any impact of a car being located there On your property views. I mean I suppose we could put up a vegetative screen I'm a little concerned because will said that if you wanted to make that a real parking spot They might have to take down one of the trees right I mean officer, I do not want to take that tree down and as I said, I'm not If and when someday we decide Flatten it out per se Yeah, well and the other thing is You would have to if it was after this permit expired you'd have to come back to reapply to make that change Because the construction has to be completed Within the timeline of the permit Right, it's such a two-year. Go ahead. You can two cars be easily fit north of the house I mean and we still plenty of room for the rain garden on the other side right and how many spaces do you think you have? It looks like there shows two cars, but it looks like a pretty big. I mean we can fit On the other side of the bridge Some So even without the additional parking space to the west of the proposed building You'd still you do you think you could still accommodate four cars on site? Is there a Disadvantage to taking that westerly parking spot off the site plan or are you requesting that that flexibility be retained? Actually Yeah, I want to be clear about that. That's that's really the question is if you were to do Additional work site work to make that into a spot. That's what you'd have to come back for but You know just as somebody who decides to park a camper on there Backyard doesn't necessarily need to come in for a zoning permit until it becomes a permanent structure of sorts But I think it's all I think what Meredith is saying is that you have two years to actually construct the project right proposed and as approved So that if you have this proposal to have a parking spot in there, and you're not planning on building it within the next two years Then it doesn't make sense to include it in this because by the regulations you Are supposed to have constructed it within two years if it's part of this plan Is that what you were saying? There's that if there are changes that need to be made which there are right now some grading changes But then that is sort of in conflict with dance point Which is you can actually park your car there right now because there's an old driveway spot. Well, it's not flat I mean you can park it as an angle. It just if he wants to park on the slope But if he wants to park on the slope then we don't he doesn't need to propose any changes to the grade at that location, right? I think in the next two years ultimately, I'd like to have a parking spot there Is there access into the into the basement Is there access into the proposed structure from that area is it all from north right now? You know, there's there's steps on to the main entrance on the north side So kind of between the northern parking and western parking, but then there's also pedestrian access up to sort of the south Okay So I guess I guess your point is that it can be used as a parking spot even if it's not constructed as a parking spot and if that were to occur then The neighbors concerns would not necessarily be addressed right and I'm just thinking to the extent that they exist as a parking space and You know part part of it is I think this issue goes away if there's some sort of vegetative screening Just to note that because this does not qualify for site plan there is no Landscaping provision that applies. Okay. I made a little note in here somewhere about that, but so I play it all Okay, so we don't have the yeah Okay Forget Okay Well, thank you. Thank you So sorry Dan, that's okay all the thunder gone Snow storage Where is currently? Most of it ends up we basically shovel it All basically kind of a lot of it parts that isn't that sort of more of a parking spot and then Okay, well, what about the the rain gardens will there be a negative impact of snow storage goes into the Sort of Okay, thank you It happens there there are those of us out there that can shovel drive Okay, so I think that is there any other issues and anyone wishes to I think we thoroughly reviewed this If not, I will take a motion or do we want to take it into Deliberative session at the end Whatever the pleasure of the board at this point Well, the reason we would take it into deliberative sessions if we wish to consider further refinement to our thinking right I Have to maybe value to that. I'm not I can go either way. Yeah, I feel like we've come to consensus on Agree most of this. Yeah, okay So I'll entertain a motion I'll make the motion to approve the project as proposed in as modified Recently by the applicant Okay motion by Kevin do I have a second I'll second it second by Deb Any further discussion? Hearing none all those in favor of the motion as proposed please raise your right hand There will be a written decision forthcoming. Thank you On your property Rob you want to come up I Okay, we're gonna take a two-minute break and then we'll take up the sketch plan Talk about his issues give the board an opportunity to ask questions and then feel free to come up to a microphone and Offer things no one's going under oath because this is the nature of sketch plan a little bit like my club No, it isn't anything With that mr. Sutter please Yeah, we've we've seen this in sort of an even in more informal review So it might help and to orient us if you've made any particular changes to the proposal or flush things out Down And So yeah looking at doing Basebates of 3,000 square foot building five-bedroom This you know that the slopes are a thing to contend with The slope analysis We came up with a allowable density of three units Converted to a plan unit development, which gave us a 50% increase. So The this site is got a lot of bench Well, we tried to Test this right So it's very I mean to be honest, I don't know where I go from here. So I'm still happy to I would I would still love to get feedback and comments And and is that is that largely because the cost of drilling into the ledge to actually, you know Wasn't even that is that getting a septic system right? Perkable terrain and percolate soil You know within reaching distance of the city's or us Yes, I believe this There's a line that comes up I guess it's a private line about maybe a quarter of the way from Murray Drive Mm-hmm drive up to this property, which is still quite a distance ways and and I know there's wells in that field next to that and the soil types really don't change so So think about trying to connect within the right-of-way or something like that I Don't want to disturb their wells. That's a bad idea Yeah, as far as Yeah, what else can I tell you so you know wood sight trying to maintain keep as much as the wind character possible I Know there was an issue sort of main issue a technical review really was turn around Vehicles So yeah, I'll Maybe direct I think you know one of one of the areas and you saw it some link that we went to with the steep slopes So I know that one thing that we're going to need I know Don has done these preliminary drawings for you, but you know, we'd need his final sign-off on this As well as the erosion control issues You know both both pre-construction and you know your your proposal in some ways is a little different than the last one not that's an apples to orange comparison, but you know the wall that you're proposing is really against the The natural topography and how water will then come and be diverted around and dealt with So it doesn't shed off or create either problems for you as I'm sure you want to avoid But also in a way the water sheds off the property or just retained on the property. I think that's just something that I'd want to see Develop to a greater extent as you But obviously putting the money into that is doesn't make sense until you know you're going forward with the project But it would definitely be at the next stage. We want to see And that's consistent with the 3008 and you know, this is this goes back to the question that we're facing before You know, do you need a stamp sealed engineer saying this is an erosion control plan that conforms with it? Or do you can you can you achieve the same end with something slightly less? And I can't as one board member give you particular guidance on this But I think it would be important to have the topography and understand the impact that the building has on the topography For the answer to that question, you know, and this has a big this is talking about installing a driveway that doesn't exist now It's going to cross cut up there So I think that creates issues in and of itself for how that drainage works But those are things that I I would want to see as I suspect other board members would And just snow storage issues where that would the driveway Then You know I'm Not to jump around but another point that's made in the staff report, but you know how this building would be Essentially owned is this would this be something where you would own the building and rent out the units? Yes as a multifamily or as opposed to a condominium, you know, it'd be rental units, okay Right, and then you very dressed the technical review question about the ambulances and The width of the driveway the ability for an ambulance or fire truck turn around Yeah, sorry I'm just wondering is there a possibility of getting a waiver for the And I mean obviously I would have we would have a site plan that said this area is basically undisturbed Yeah, I don't know if we could Keep their entries good for the dirt Don't know if we have the necessarily have the authority just to wave the landscaping But you know one thing I would say or notice that you know when we talk about this this landscaping and screening Because you're proposing a very naturalistic setting it's not a particularly complicated landscape plan You know more than anything what we're often concerned about are things such as screening but also, you know not introducing invasive species or You know having things that can't be maintained or that are likely to fail you know, so I think Having Because it says applications for major site plan review show include a landscape plan prepared by a licensed landscape architecture certified Horticulturalist, I think that's a fairly broad and flexible series of categories. I mean, I don't know if a certified horticulturalist What? Who certifies that and it's not defined in the zoning bylaws. So, you know, I think we're just looking for someone with a Again to use the analogy I think Ryan used which was as opposed to somebody on graph paper saying, you know like tree and bush Having having a slightly more sophisticated plan even if that plan is leave trees and shrubs as are The arrow I see like I mean, this isn't a type of Right, well, no, nor are we expecting this to turn into an arboretum either But I think what again what we're really looking for and you know part of that I can't answer as to whether it's as factor I think it's one of those things where what we're looking for is a plan that's been developed with some degree of sophistication So that it does not Is So there is you know some of these issues that are behind these landscaping and screening bylaws are Thoughtfully applied Because you know, they have charged us with a fairly vigorous and robust landscaping requirement on these major site plan reviews so that you know, we don't just put in houses there and cut everything down or Make it devoid of any type of landscaping that will transition or or you know facilitate how that how that house Blends into The existing wooded environment because it will be an intrusion. I mean there are there are going to be impacts visually By putting a house there and putting a driveway And so I think whether the ideas of the landscaping plan is how do you mitigate those impacts or you know In the forward going forward, how do you how do you create something that's that's sustainable? You know so that these impacts don't And part of it may be a very just simple natural let nature take its course let the natural growth of the forest continue Not put in manicured Pieces of shrubbery, but I think that's that's simply you know I've probably said more thought than many landscaping plans and our old bylaws ever had Well, and in in this situation especially because there is a lot of ledge if this goes forward It may also be helpful to have that landscape or design, you know landscape designer whoever it is Work also with the stormwater so that you're working in some green stormwater, you know Applications and that might be more of what the landscaping is in some ways than anything else is identifying which trees stay and Where are you putting green stormwater infrastructure, and what is going to be in that for plants? We've we've treated this I you know not necessarily having an entire sort of dark sky Analysis as to sort of what candle lights as you know part of this depends on this the amount of lighting you're proposing You know, I don't know if you're planning on lighting up the driveway or at the bottom of the driveway or if it Simply around the the parking area I mean, you know a good example of why we have the robust lighting are Certain properties on Norsefield Street that you know are very well very well lit up that are inconsistent with other Properties around Montpelier that have favored sort of the dark sky Initiative that that our bylaws uphold So I mean if you're proposing just a few lights that are consistent and obviously we want cut sheets with those Show that they have the full cutoff I Absolutely provide a lighting layout cut sheets, right? I don't think we need a lemon Right, it's just that the major site plan. I think what his point was was getting a professional Yeah, you know at professional lighting design for engineer to sign off on it. I don't think it needs to be It's not yeah, we're not looking at all we're not Right and I think you know this isn't saying it needs to be One of the full big light analysis where you have the points everywhere It just says a lighting plan prepared What is actually in that lighting plan? You know, I think your typical stuff that we see and Memo from the engineer. Yeah, you know you have a site design engineer who's going to make recommendations and you can just simply ask him to Make recommendations on lighting and I would suspect unless it's a more sophisticated lighting plan than I'm picturing that that will largely be And I'm only one board member if any other board members feel strongly about this I mean, we've often been more reactive on lighting plans than proactive Which is you know when we see the lighting plan if there does appear to be issues We usually will drill deeper and may Have applicants go back to have things redesigned again, you know, there are certain properties where that has that has come up In part because it's really cheap to put a big spotlight on a building and illuminate a big area as opposed to running a pole out that might Create the same lighting in a less intrusive manner And those are obviously our concerns As well as you in the bylaws Any other questions from the board? I have a couple questions one of which may be me learning about the this new ish bylaw We haven't talked a lot about infill housing PUDs And so I guess it's a question from Meredith Applicability says infill housing developments are permitted in Several zoning districts including this one residential 9,000 on parcels not more than two acres in size Does that mean that we have to consider all PUD infill PUDs because in my mind this I don't see this meeting the purposes of the infill PUD Sure my page three dash seventy two of the zoning and it's section 3401 infill housing development So I guess my question is do we evaluate the applicability of this option based on applicability with purposes or both? Because the ability says yes, but it doesn't match the purposes and in my interpretation Yep, well, I think it I think I Think it you need to look at both otherwise why are the purposes there? But I Mean this is this is the first time I've worked through this Which is one reason that I have the purposes of the section in here completely spelled out as well as the applicability Yeah, and I just I want before I Ponder this in a meeting setting. I want to understand if the applicant has a strict right to Apply to this as a infill PUD based on the applicability section Because if yes, then I and up But if I can't answer that question, Kate, I'm sorry I just Mean it might be something to ask the city zoning counsel Is that one I'm learning commission the attorney. Oh the attorney. Yeah, I'll go counsel Sorry, it's chapter 340 and it's section 3401 and it's page three dash seventy two in the bylaws in the Yeah Yes, it's part of the sub the plan unit development standards Yeah, and the reason that I'm asking is that the three purposes one has a purpose of encouraging and increasing the amount of housing generally And affordable housing in particular located in downtown and surrounding neighborhoods And this seems remote to be a surrounding neighborhood Allow for further residential development on bacon are underutilized lots within developed neighborhoods This is adjacent to undeveloped neighborhood, but it's kind of not a part of a neighborhood Mass and scale must reflect the character of the existing streetscape maintain the privacy of adjacent residences and fit comfortably in the existing neighborhood I think in my brain because it's a parcel that's kind of remote from Remote to start It's not really tied into a neighborhood. I just don't know how it comfortably in the existing neighborhood Those are the types of questions that are being raised for me when I look at this and yet It's Zoned it. I think it's 9,000 So it's anticipated that there would be development. I think yeah, if we look at this on the broader city-wide scale So your point is well taken, but there are other counter currents that are also Need to be considered So that 9,000 Square-foot lot Anticipates 9,000 square foot lots or or greater What we're talking about or the reason it even comes catches my attention is that the infill housing development PUD allows to one to access the density bonus which gives you more than one unit per 9,000 square feet and so That's something I noticed as I was looking at it So is that Well, I think that's that I mean that's obviously what comes Yeah I'll offer a gloss that only reflects my thinking not any type of consensus or Binding legal opinion, but you know, I'm often guided by the the actual, you know, the sort of meat and potato standards that you apply With it with these provisions and I think the applicability standard Lays it out and I think the purpose is undergird it, but it's That they are not in and of themselves the Test on the applicability of whether this can apply to a particular a lot and I think that your point is is a valid one except, you know, we have a Parcel that's located within a district that's been zoned for this Planned you because it could have been zoned a number of other ways And so While you know, some of these purposes You know and part of it is sort of a little bit of the Subjectivity which is to say, you know allow for further residential development on vacant or underutilized lots within developed neighborhoods. I Mean, this is adjacent to a rather developed neighborhood of Murray Hill that has Very large residential component to it. And does that mean just simply because it's adjacent to it that it's not within it I Don't know. I mean, I think an argument could be constructed both ways And that's the concern that I would have as to making that a gatekeeper For whether someone is eligible for PUD infill only because it invites them a challenge as opposed to giving us a Brighter line test for this which is under the subsection B Can can I throw one other little wrench in the works? Yeah, so Are you all thinking of this as I know it says little n neighborhoods and Yes, you know it Are we thinking What we think of as visual neighborhood saying yeah Technically this parcel lies within the defined Murray Hill neighborhood But we're not looking at that big neighborhood We're looking at the things right here right next to it along the street as you can see it when you're driving up main street I yeah, I mean, I think that's where that's one of those things where neighborhood itself isn't necessarily Defined as a term. Yeah, and so, you know, what makes up a neighborhood? No, and that's why I'm just asking because there is a defined neighborhood, which is the Murray Hill neighborhood There's no any purposes, right? This falls into okay. I'm just I And it's one of the problems I find in how this is drafted sometimes is that they're not really clear on what they're talking about It's almost like it would be more clarifying if it said within like in three Comfortably into the existing neighborhood type with me because we've got these Murray Hill neighborhood and Highland neighborhood That would Direct what we are comparing its compatibility or only use a neighborhood with a capital N when you're talking about neighborhoods Just picks another word All right, well, thanks for exploring that I guess I a couple thoughts on the the density bonus and I first read that section I kind of thought that it wasn't just the fourth unit that needed to have the appropriate applied and I don't know maybe that's something we consider in our discretion of Whether we allow this or not, but it seems like the intent of the regulation was to create Multiple units of that, but I I don't I'm not saying that it was calculated wrong in the staff report I'm just saying it to consider that maybe more units should be Should fit the criteria for the P. I see that it's just that in 3401 see it specifically says If each of the additional dwelling units meets at least three of the following criteria, okay? It says additional Yeah, I read that several times to make sure that Because it seems it seems weird to me as well that only the extra bonus one has to meet those I Okay, so the other I guess bigger picture alone to Put in perspective is is that if someone were to build single-family home and maximize their disturbance Like they're the available area. I mean to quay the benefit to the public of that type of You know disturbance on a bill of a lot versus, you know more units where you do have you know some benefit of the public of You know energy efficiency and these are the things that I Don't know. I think that's something that we should discuss as a part of moving forward here Yeah, I Agree and I think I mean I'm actually in looking at this again I don't I'm not at all clear as to what the purpose of this was I mean I think it's reasonable to read the applicability as to say You can only do this in these neighborhoods. It doesn't make sense then that if you're in these neighborhoods That you get to do it as a matter of right because then it's all the language about You know may apply for a bonus and the whole purpose section doesn't seem to make sense And this is this applicability is pretty General it would apply to pretty much any PUD in any of these zoning districts, which seems to undermine this Obviously sort of discretionary purpose of this section as far as us Considering and determining on a case-by-case basis whether we want to grant a bonus That said I also agree with Rob I think so I don't think I know maybe I don't know that we need to get an opinion on this I don't think I think Kate's initial question was do we have to just allow this as a PUD? My inclination is probably not it seems like this section is intended to give us discretion Whether or not we grant the bonus associated with the infill housing PUD But I also think that we should look at it on a case-by-case basis and here it seems like The purposes general purposes of PUDs are accomplished by this project and that that's being proposed in a way that certainly going to minimize impacts and So Those are my initial thoughts. Okay. Thanks. You're welcome Any other comments or any other questions This wriggle so if you have yeah You go up to the microphone and just introduce yourself. Yeah, so Eric we'll stone I'm here on behalf. I'm president of my very hill homers association, which bus land that's being proposed to be developed I guess the one concern that we really do have is Sceptic if it were to be able to be built which sounds questionable Whether it would Be susceptible to contaminating our water supply that is up there It is this property located quite closely to a few of our wells. So that would give us great concern If it were to move forward, we would certainly Ask that you require Testing be done. I don't know how the testing works. I'm not first in all that but we have an agreement with the mom compost company that The water quality gets tested on a yearly basis and they put the bill for that to make sure that their road You know their their runoff is not containing our water supply And then I think the only one of things came up tonight hearing that there was a lot of ledge That was encountered When they were trying to dig some pits would be you know, obviously the the homes that are currently existing up there pretty close to this property How do you how do you move that ledge? Do you do blasting and where does that leave the homeowners? If something were to occur at one of those homes So those are concerns that Okay, thanks Jim, did you have Some Jim trench of a Jason property owner Actually, we share a lot. Why do you hope invisible one? That's right I'm just interested to hear the discussion. Okay comments good Well, and you know, obviously though some of those concerns are Shouldn't be restricted to the hearing here and I mean it was noted in the staff report that and it sounds like the The public sewer system is not that far away and if it sounds like there's a Any way to maybe work if Murray sells Homers association's interest is not having an on-site septic for possibly risking the wells maybe that's a possible avenue to work out some sort of usement just for a Pipe to hook into the municipal sewer system To avoid any risk that You know an on-site system might especially given the Kind of unknown nature of the underground topography I think a question to explore related to that is whether This is within or outside the city's sewer service area and whether it would require an extension expense to the city Well, and that's I mean when we had the technical review committee meeting, I mean technically it's outside of The area there would have to be an extension to reach the pipe that is there right now Um, and I believe you said there's a possibility you're gonna have you would have to basically drill through Ledge to make that connection potentially Yeah So it's it's troublesome. That's a difficult situation. So your project is even more complicated than we when we left Yeah Okay, um Yes What what would Place this potential development to not happen like what What would the land the the demographics of the land prevent a sewer system for being installed? How does that work? Like what would City sewer what are the needed conditions your own septic system? like What would be I'm sorry Geology, yeah, what what what would prevent that from being from them being liquid in a septic system? Well, I mean, I think that's just like the degree of the land. Is it that's the makeup Soils, so either purse, but right they look at the slopes. Okay, that's that's what I guess There's a couple different systems and they need different kinds of space And so they'll work with an engineer to see if it's possible But it sounds like you don't have any of those you don't have any of those details at the moment. You're just Okay, I didn't know how long that was Okay, all right. Yeah, I mean there's a whole review process to get a state permit. Yeah, so that's all under Yeah, I was gonna say we don't really tend to give permit We well we don't give permits for septic systems. I understand that is I don't It allows you to make to be able to put one in and what allows you not it's Engineers make that call and do that report through to the state and we look at that say Oh doesn't as an engineer said that they could actually put a septic system here If you think about two of the biggest things the soil type, you know Is this impenetrable clay or is this nice sandy soil where it can go down and how close to surface is ledge? Because the stuff has to go Down and stay down and in the permit program they take Into account overshadowing which is whether or not an onsite system could affect drinking wells So you'll you'll be notified if that process goes forward as a joining Landowner particularly with wells so that you'll be able to have your own engineers take a look to make sure that you're comfortable That they won't be this it's called overshadowing Not often you ask a septic question at a zoning board meeting and get an answer from the secretary of a and r We go high we go low Okay, um any others Yeah, there are other feedback we can I'm curious what you're envisioning for the So the part of the plan you development, you know, you have condensed development Then you have open space that's kind of communal and you've got that marked off as this like 35 by 130 foot common open space area Are you are you what are you envisioning that looking like? Natural Been up there If you It's the best part of the property basically it's kind of a nice level out area There's not many trees in it, but it's tree lines. So I would see, you know, that would probably be the one area where you'd have a stretch of longer Something No, no, no, it was this actually connecting for a second when I tried to get it connected during drc Okay So pretty much like, you know during the winter I would anticipate it looking very much like a photograph see Okay Seems to be Much Staff has highlighted for us. They've highlighted for us evaluation of one of the subdivision character subdivision Yep subdivision standards, which is character of the neighborhood and settlement pattern Land is not being subdivided here though. Is it except we have to look at that for pv Right lp uds have to go through the subdivision criteria Okay subdivision standards some of these clearly don't apply in this situation The character of the neighborhood still has to be evaluated. So that's one that is a A newer aspect of the zoning again where we have these different neighborhoods the murray hill neighborhood and it we We are required to assess the compatibility of a project with the character of the neighborhood and it talks about Residential developments with single family homes and townhouses and these would function much like townhouses And it also says It may feature infill residential development where infrastructure is available And to the extent feasible given the availability and ownership of land in this neighborhood It really strikes me that this was written without thinking of the parcel that you're looking at it really sounds like about the existing So so that that's just an area where we may have more discussion Um should this return to the to the board? Yeah Yeah Yeah, if you look at the beginning of our zoning bylaws where it describes the neighborhoods They give some neighborhood character descriptions And this is big end neighborhoods. So they've been sort of broken up and into these 50 some odd neighborhoods and They have some descriptions. So, you know as you develop and adding that narrative to sort of underscore why this would be consistent with the existing neighborhood and how it would fit in and reinforce that as opposed to Introducing something new. I mean, this is a standard that we're struggling with as a as a board. I'll be honest is that you know, because You know, again, it's somewhat like this infill pud Where it's a mixture of some of them are somewhat subjective and somewhat objective Standards and tests and how we integrate those into the application We're still feeling through but the more you can make then Uh Showing of that then the easier our job is to Yeah, I mean that's that's that's what we got that's what the character of the neighborhood gives us so Good anything else so Obviously it sounds like the next step for you is going to be much more on the technical side to figure out If you can if you can build let alone whether you can get a zoning permit for it Obviously you've heard concerns of the neighbors. They're good people to keep in the loop as you move forward Um, only because and I'll just I say this to every applicant You know, obviously there comes times There come times where what you want and what a neighbor wants that differ and it comes down to the law But to the extent that such issues like the last application where they were able to I think Integrate some of those concerns into changes beforehand Obviously makes the permit process go smoother And I would certainly encourage that conversation. So Okay Well, thank you very much Thank you all All right, so Any other business um Just a quick note for anybody who is not in the planning and zoning job per se that Tuesday, june 18th is the spring planning and zoning forum if anybody's interested I can forward details to you if you want But we got like five flyers for them. So Sure, they just let you know good Where's it being held this year lake mori, huh? That's why it's fun. So is the city gonna put the bell for us to attend and uh Part of our DRB budget I have no idea if it's ever happened or not. I don't know if you would qualify as a vlct member I do. I don't know if any of you do But doesn't the AG have a Junket budget Maybe they do maybe they don't See what bearing that has on whether the inquiries to whether the city is going to pay for me to attend this A lot of it looks like it's me about municipal planning grants this year um Another upcoming event if I may share is that the downtown historic preservation conference is being held right in montpellier Scattered sites throughout the city including this one Um, and that's on june 5th. So wednesday I'll be facilitating a session. So come on down and members of our local historic preservation commission will be involved as well That's right. Where will it be? What's that? Where will it be? Oh in montpellier scattered sites So kind of moved from site to site depending on the workshop that you're going to include some walking tours And depending on whether or not the legislature has wrapped up or not By june Yeah Okay One other piece. So just the conservation commission has reached out to meredith and I Asking us to come to their meeting this thursday Because there are bylaw provisions that talk about recommendations from the conservation commission and they wanted I think they wanted to ask some questions and some initial feedback. So meredith and I were planning on going to that Obviously, if there's anything larger out of that conversation, we'll share it with you at the next meeting Well, even if they're small things, we'll still share or if we won't be stingy with the information we get Thanks Yeah, thanks for everything about they reached out So with that our next regular meeting is monday may 20th 2019 maybe So there are no applications for that. Nothing got continued from tonight So if members want training we could try and do some training or you could have the night off Just a question about The Fine arts College of fine arts that application has been Removed withdrawn. It's not tabled. It's withdrawn because they they They may not make a decision on what they're doing until the end of the summer. Okay. So that is completely withdrawn It'll be a completely new application new public notice process new fees They have withdrawn the whole thing because they they aren't quite sure how they're going forward and when Okay, um, so what's do any inkling or we can You can also decide. Yeah, we can think about whether or not you want some sort of training And and let me I'm untrainable Yes Notwithstanding that, um, I'll tell you why don't we What I would suggest as opposed to sort of Nebulous training Why don't we think about if there is anything specific that we do want to talk about And at best what I would say is we would have a short session, but otherwise If people want the the monday off if the weather's nice There's no reason Not to enjoy what little summer we have Well that and if you do want if we do want some form of training I would need to know Quickly so that yeah, let's decide before the end of the week if somebody has a a strong or compelling suggestion I would say that would make sense otherwise I'm I'm disinclined to request a training opportunity on may 20th Disinclined to request I think we should give Meredith the night off. Let's give it. Yeah, is that Yes, okay, then we won't plan for a training session and Short of they're becoming another session then that would push our next Regularly scheduled meeting To june 3rd yep 7 p.m Here I'll take a motion to adjourn Move motion by kate second second second by kevin all those in favor. Please raise your right hand We are adjourned. Thank you all very much Thank you, mr. Chair