 It's time for our first hot topic on the breakfast. I want to take a look at the size of this Government. Tinnubu appears to be ignoring Korn's president, Bola Tinnubu, for a lean government as his cabinet size near 70. OBJ, former president, Olusya Gwobasanjo, had 30 ministers. Former president, late Umar Erodoa, had 39 ministers. Former president, Gulno Jonathan, he had 37. But here we are looking at one that's about 70. Well, let's talk about that with Joe Femi Daguro. He's a founder of Lagos Forum. Good morning to you, Joe. Good morning. Glad to have you. Yeah, good to be here. So what's your take on the size of the portfolio of the cabinet we're seeing in front of us? It probably may rise. Well, actually, I've said it somewhere before that it's a prerogative of the president to choose his ministers and the people that work with him. If there's no law to guide against increase or decrease in number of ministers, then he may be doing something right, unless there's a law. And if there's a law prohibiting this number, because we have to look at what the law says, if the National Assembly agrees with him on this, then he must be doing something right. But if the law says, look, you can have it, but if the law allows him to do what he's doing right now, then nobody can stop him. From your investigation, does the law give him an open check to decide how many people he wants to work with? Well, from my understanding, like I said, I'm not a lawyer, but then he must choose from all the states. And now if we have 36 plus one, that's about 37. So if he has to choose from all the states, that means minimum you will have 37. And if you have a minister of states, all these other minister, general minister, add another 37 to him. So there must be something fundamentally wrong somewhere. And until when that is corrected, you know, we can say what we want to say, but I mean, why is he choosing this large number? There must be a reason for it. And I think these are the things we should be able to ask the president or the presidency so that they give a clue to this. Rather than for us now, if we discuss it and it comes out and tell us this is what I want to do, this is what the law says, then we'll find ourselves in a situation whereby we can defend ourselves again. So I was trying to get across to one or two people in the government to find out. But now it was impossible because I got this information to appear on this program a little bit late. So these are the things we have to investigate. And once we investigate it and we find that the president has not done anything wrong or he has done something wrong, we'll begin to take him on that. So these are the things we have to look into first. All right. Well, Nigerians are concerned because when you look at the economy and how the nation is struggling, Nigerians have said, look, let's cut down on government expenses. Let's reduce the cost of governance in this country. And so when they see this kind of this size, you know, they get alarmed naturally, whether the law allows it or not. Do you not agree with Nigerians who are saying, look, cut down the cost of governance and let's see that things are not bloated as they've been in the past. I agree with that. I agree with that 100%. I agree with that. There are so many ministries that can be matched. There are so many positions that can be cut off completely. And if we begin to look at that, where do we get the money? You know, if we say we are going to be borrowing and we're going to borrow, because we are not ruining the surplus economy. It's a deficit. And if we are running a deficit economy, and that means we might still borrow more until we have that surplus. We don't have the surplus now, unless the statistics are wrong. So if we don't have the surplus and a report has said, look, let's cut this. And why is it that even the past government have not been able to do the right thing? So we have to begin to look at it and say, look, what is really wrong? And that is why I'm saying the National Assembly has to consider a lot of things. You see, the people, I mean, that is people like us in the public. And when we say, oh, this is what we think about the government. This is what we think should happen. In most cases, it's not going to change things. And that is why there should be a mechanism whereby the people will listen. How many senators or rep or representatives are having, I said it, a place where you can, you know, drop your opinion. Unlike where we took this democracy from, you had the opportunity to reach your representatives again. So there must be a place we can reach out to them in a very comfortable way that we can say, look, this is what we feel about this country. This is what we think. So except the few of us that we can speak. So let's begin to find a grassroots movement, a grassroots organizations that we can see. So we have a lot of NGOs that work in that are saying things about this, but has it made a change? So it's a phenomenon. It's a problem that has to be solved. And I just hope maybe this time around the assemblymen and women can listen to it and begin to look at it. Look, in the last government, you discovered that before the names of ministers were submitted, it took quite a while. So now they passed a law. I mean, it is true that same government has said, look, within 60 days, look, something has to be done. Because you know when you are coming into this government, you need to have ministers that should have been a kitchen cabinet, you call it, to have, you know, selected some people and say, look, this is what I want to do. So it shouldn't take you even 60 days to be able to submit this list, but that is politics. You know, there will be discussions, there will be issues here and there. And you know, all these things about friendship and loyalty. So the party members, we want to have their say as well. I mean, because it is not just the president alone. There will be people who are supporting him to make decisions. So unless a lot of things have to change, unless people have to have an orientation, they have to understand that government has to be effective and functional. But if this is what the law says, I repeat, that you must have a minister from all the states, then there should be something wrong somewhere. And then not only that, you have the civil societies. You have other people that say women must take, you know, this affirmative action of 25 or 35 percent. You have issues that have said, no, the Christian must occupy certain positions. The Muslim must occupy certain positions. But let's look at the reality. We should be talking about fixing issues right now. We need a vibrant foreign affairs policy at this critical time in Africa, in the world. So these are the things we should consider and not to be able to just be talking all over the time. And you know, who is going to be what? The foreign affairs ministry needs a minister right now. Every other portfolio we have to consider as critical, the works ministry, the health ministry. Let's fix these things and let's move on with governance. And that is the most important issues now. Then you still have to now be guessing who is going to be the minister of what, who is going to be the minister of state, who is going to be the minister, the senior minister, the junior minister. There are a lot of issues. And I believe the government of Bola Metinumbu will be working, you know, to see things done properly. Look at the strike, the way it was handled. I'm looking at the way he's been doing things for a while. And I'm looking at the competence and the finesse in handling some of these issues. So if we are looking at the practicality and the flexibility of the governance and now let's bring transparency into it and let's bring clarity into all this. Then I think we must be doing something right. That's why we have to give chance. We have to give him the chance of let's wait and see, you know, how is he going to pay? Then it's a different question. Who is going to occupy what? Those are the things that are critical right now. So once we fix it, you see, look at our foreign affairs policy that I talked about. The chat issue, the Niger issue, all this was African country, Burkina Faso, Mali and all these things are happening right now. And it depends on us. And Nigeria is the president or the chairman of ECOWAS. So when we look at it right now, there's a lot of issue going on. Times you have moved past what we experienced in the last government, where it's only a big elaborate. I was running around the place with NITCOM and representing the government in most cases. We had the, in then we couldn't even had, we had the voice of the foreign affairs minister. So things have to change. And that is why its efficiency is transparency. Was it even earlier because you had the foreign affairs minister, you had Neymar, you had, there was so much duplicity. There was so much duplicity. It's part of what we had hoped will be changed with this administration. Okay, well, let's look at the list. You've seen the list, you've seen the names. We've seen about nine ex-governors there. Would you say that looking at that list that there is hope that this team is well put together? Or you have doubts about their ability to deliver and move this country forward? The only thing we can do, the only thing I can say is to be cautiously optimistic about some of these things. While I don't want Nigerians to lose their optimism and not to lose their mind about some of these things going on. It's just to be cautiously optimistic and that is it. You see, politics is about relationship among the politicians. It's about friendship, it's about loyalty. It's about, yes, you supported me, I'm there for you. And I think even all these nine governors, you know, if they are sincere to themselves and to this nation, I want to believe that it's a great opportunity for them to really come out and serve. They've made enough money if it's about money. They've gained enough publicity and popularity if it is about that, if it's about fame. So if you have been brought into the system right now, it should be about the greatest service you can give. So if they don't see this as the greatest opportunity even to correct their past, whatever it is, then there's something wrong with our system. There's something wrong with us as people and that is where we can continue to complain and possibly raise our voices to say, no, this is not what we voted for and to correct this anomaly. But for now, there's nothing we can do as people. It is the job of the president to select the people he wants to work with and that's the sad truth. No matter what we say, it doesn't change the mind of the people who is going to work or the mind who is going to choose who is going to work with him. These are supposed to be in the private sector. You choose some people to work with you and then they work with you. And that is it. The CEO has the right to choose and the HR, they will come together to say, look, these are the people we want to hire. Even if there are some people in-house, they can still go out and bring in SNR people to run the show. So I'm looking at it from that angle. This man has his prerogative to do that and to bring in people to work with him. And until when we see these people doing something silly. Look, when Baba Tudel Fashella was there, he did the best he could. The mistake was maybe giving him two portfolios at the same time, but later on he has to take one. So there will be mistakes that will be made, maybe, and possibly so. And then it should be corrected because we don't have the time to continue to make mistakes. We don't have the time to continue to explain the situation to ourselves. Not only that the foreign countries or our allies are looking at us, we are looking at ourselves critically right now. And that is the good thing about that. We have to have a minister of finance that will be able to talk to the central bank governor. Not to the last administration whereby the minister of finance is saying something. The central bank governor will disobey whatever and they will invite him to the assembly. The Senate will invite him and he will not go. So there was lawlessness, practically lawlessness, disobedience to law and order. So now we should try to avoid that and see that we have the same government. We have a government that can listen to people. And I think this is what we should be watching out for. That's my opinion. We need people now to come in and do the right thing. And the right thing may cause pain. Even when you are telling the people the truth, it is painful sometimes to listen to truth. But then what can we do to bring our country to the place we want it to be? It's our job. You are saying that perhaps this governor would be able to perform. But some Nigerians are saying it's already a bad signal that these governors, some of them immediate past governors, who probably should be under the radar of the EFCC right now to account for some of the things they did in their state. You are giving them portfolios. I'll read out some of the governors here on that list. You have former governor Simon Lalong. He is a lawyer served as two-term governor of Platte State from 2015 to 2023. All right. So you have Mohammed Baderu, an accountant and immediate governor, a former governor of Jigawa State from 2015 to 2023. You have Ibrahim Gaidam, who is incumbent senator of Yerba East, Senatorial District. He was the immediate past governor of Yerba State. Then you have Abubaka Abagudu. Abubaka Atiku Abagudu is the immediate past governor of Kirby State. You have Bello Matawale. He's the immediate past governor of Zamfara State. You have David Umahi. He's previously served as two-term governor of Eboni State from 2015 to 2023. All right. So you have Nesur Erofi. He's the former governor of Kaduna State. So we're not forgetting the very popular one, Nisomuike, former governor of River State. Some Nigerians are saying, is it not, is it not a bit too much to bring all these immediate past governors and give them portfolios as ministers? Well, unfortunately, unfortunately, there's nothing we can do, I repeat again. They've not been convicted. You know, they've not been taken before the court of law and they've not been convicted. And number two, they are not having immunities anymore. So they can still be picked up. They can still be invited. They can still be interrogated. There's no immunity covering them because a minister of the Federal Republic of Nigeria does not guarantee you. You can be arrested. You can be queried. No. So if the law allows that, you see, it's unfortunate that you see most of us, we don't... There is a thing as the power of inculbency. Yes, they are not the president, but the president who put them in there can very well cover them. Can't he? In any case, there are some things that are lingering and hanging over their heads. That is, that is our thoughts. That is the thoughts of Nigerians. That is the thoughts. We all have that thought. Look, why is this guy there? I would say the same thing, but at the end of the day, for this purpose of intelligence and real discussions, we have to now say, listen, unless we have to look at what the law says. If the law says, look, excuse me, you are covered. Then we say, oh, it's covering them. Whether we like it or not, whether you are a minister or not, if you are a good friend, a loyal friend of the president, there are certain things that you will benefit from being loyal to your friends, from being loyal to the president, from being loyal to the governor. It's not even all that. If you are loyal to a good friend in good position, there are things you will benefit from it. So you don't need to be a minister to have a good benefit from the minister or from the president or from the governor or from the chairman or local government. No, it's all over the place, even in the private sector. So this is what I'm saying, unless we want to feed the masses with drug information, which we do not do, which are we not do, which you will not do. But the point is this, if the law permits it, then it's free. But if the law says, look, for the fact that you are there, you can still be investigated. Even in America, I said that because this is where we took this kind of democracy from. We saw Britain, we didn't go for that parliamentary thing. We saw Germany, we saw all over the place. We went from where we think we can, I mean, we want to enjoy all the benefits of good things in life, where you have the rep and the Senate. So it's allowed. See, Trump will bring friends who are even, who cannot win the election in their state. All over the world, Obama did the same thing. This other guy here, we did the same thing. Even in UK, in Germany, name it in Europe, they do the same thing. Your friends cannot win the election, bring him to be a special advisor or minister. So what, the only thing most of our people, most of the agents are looking at. So these guys are going to sit down there again and be collecting money for doing nothing. And they are collecting whatever they have planned for themselves after the timing. That is scary and that is annoying to people. And I think most of them will begin to write like, I think Edwin Gardner wrote it. And I think maybe Osha Molle will say, look, a lot of them will begin to say, look, Osha Molle was a former chairman of APC. So he was a former NLC leader, a former governor and now a senator. So there is no law prohibiting them not to have dispositions. And unless there is a law for that, these people are free to be ministers. They are free to even contest election to aspire to be president of Nigeria. So we have to see whom do we vote as president? Whom are we going to vote as governor in future? And so that we begin to ask questions. When people come to campaign, they don't even tell us, most of them don't tell us they are manifestos. Most of them don't tell us what they will do. Most people will say, when I get there, this is what I will do, but they don't do it. And they will tell you later that is campaign audacity, where you can promise and not to fulfill. So unless we begin to, the masses, the people, the Nigerians that we talk about, our Nigerians, we should be able to find a way and come together to be asking questions, not to be taken away with a bag of Gary or a bag of beans or the recharge cards and stuff like that. You don't see in other countries around the world where senators would be distributing machines or Gary or frying pans and all that. You don't see that. You are choosing on your true representation. But here it's a different ball game. What is constituency allowance? Do we ask them? Where is the constituency allowance? What are you doing with the constituency allowance? Let us ask questions that we make them think, oh, these people are beginning. Oh, what about the primary health center here? What have you done with it? The other day I went to the primary health center sometime at night. I saw them. The road to the place was bad. And then the doctors were there. No security provided. And here you are. You see, you provide a security for some madams and some personality. You call them celebrity or personality carrying their bags and umbrella. And that's why you see sometimes they kidnapped the doctors because we don't provide security in those places. We have to think about that. And these are the things that we should be talking about. How do we get, you know, when a government comes to power, whether a president or a government, and say, look, I'll provide job for 100 million people or 10 million people. Do you know what 10 million people means to say you want to provide a job? But I want to say you provide a job for 10 million people. You don't give time frame. So even if it is the next four years, well, we are still expecting the 10 million people. So these are promises made that cannot be fulfilled. And you are not seeing the chances of these 10 million people. You said people, we have a loan to complete the education. Fantastic idea. But now who is going to demand that ministry? These are critical questions, you know, and students will begin to resume maybe in October, you know, and then it has brought a system whereby the university had the freedom to, you know, increase their school fees. So we should be addressing those things. I think that those are the questions we should be prepared to ask and ask for the answers. So that students can go back to school comfortably well. And the process of loan, how will it be like? How long will it take for a student to get a loan or scholarship if that should be the case? How would she be asking people? Well, according to the Nigerian constitution, there must be at least one cabinet member from each of the 36 states of the country. But, you know, when you say there's nothing we can do about it, there's nothing we can do. It's important that we have these conversations, right? And it's important also that we're able to relate to members of the National Assembly who are supposedly representing us. We should be able to say to them, look, we are not happy with this aspect of our life as a people. Can you do something about it? Can a bill be enacted? Can you sponsor a bill to change this or sponsor a bill to add this to the things we are having to deal with or to remove that from some of the things we're dealing with? So when you say there's nothing we can do about it, it makes us seem so helpless in a democracy that we're in. Listen, I say that because from my own experience, I've tried at some point to have a conversation, to have a meeting with a senator. I got to his office and I tell you, I couldn't believe that it was even his office. And somebody, you know, carefully told me that he doesn't come to this office. So that's what I'm saying. What do you want to do? You want to go to his house? Do you call him? He doesn't pick your call. So what do you really want to do? It seems we're helpless. Yes. If you have an office where you can meet or you can drop a letter, look at some of them. They are emails. They don't even read some of them. There might be some who are really good at, you know, going through emails and SMS and whatever, who are having assistance, special assistance or who can handle this issue. But where you can't see them to discuss with them, where you can't even send a mail and get a response. Then something is wrong. I agree. I said earlier, let's find a place. Let's talk. How do you talk to them? The guy sits down in Abuja and is representing me in Lagos Day. And he has an office and you go to the office. Even the office is locked up in most jams. And when you see the guy there or the lady there, you say, look, sorry, your guy is not around. So what else can you do? That tells us a lot about the quality of people we have in public offices, doesn't it? And that also tells us a lot about why Koo is becoming a thing on the continent. Does it? No, no. You see, we shouldn't take it that far. Koo is senseless, right? We can do things without having Koo. You see, I think no place in the world that you want to have a military government. No, it doesn't at all. Completely no, no. You see, the thing is this, we shouldn't be even given the opportunity to talk about that to them. Because, you see, these people, they were there before for the fact that, you know, your friend has gone and you want to bring another person in or you feel you have to go in there to take your own share of the cake. That is not it. We have never seen whereby you said you want to do something. People want to change government, but please, let's get another election. You know, we can recall these people. There's a process to recall. We can, you know, people are protesting peacefully. There's so many things you can do. You know, you can, you know, you can set the mass representation through lawyers and all that. So that we should, that's what I'm saying, we should find a venue to express ourselves. But it shouldn't be that what's going on in all these smaller countries. You know, Nigeria, we can't even, I think... Nobody, Femi, Femi, nobody, nobody is calling for a Koo. But we're saying that those who have been entrusted with democracy should handle it with the diligence that it's required. So that they do not give room for the military boys, as they are called, to come in and disrupt democracy. That's what we're saying. I think this time around, most people in the military, they want a flourishing democracy. Yes, they want it because it pays everyone of us. It gives everybody the opportunity to live the life we want to live. But we have to always checkmate our lawmakers. We have to always checkmate our local government chairman. Let's start from the local government. We have to continue with conversations such as this, so that these people will hear us. I imagine they watch television, listen to radio, read the newspapers to know the voice of the people, to hear the voice of the people and feel the pulse of the people and begin to take their constituency offices seriously and the constituency project that is supposed to be handling seriously and listen to the people that they claim to be representing. Thank you so much, Joe Femi-Dagororo, for your time on our first hard topic. Enjoy the day. You too. Joe Femi-Dagororo is the founder of Lagos Forum and he's been our guest on the first hard topic. We could take a break and come back for our second hard topic. Stay with us.