 You know yesterday, Professor Fatak was trying to find out where you are all from and I noticed that a large number of hands went up when I asked you, who are the people from Maharashtra? Okay. Now those who are from Maharashtra, I think almost everyone will know this famous song by Sant Thukaram, Vriksha Valli. Yes. How many of you know the song? Okay. Now I'm going to ask another question and find out how many hands stay up. How many of you can sing the song? Only one line. How many of you can sing two lines, please? Two lines. Okay. Can you sing at least a few lines from that song, please? Vriksha Valli Ammasu Vere Vanachore. Only one line. No. I said two lines. This is cheating. Yeah. Anyone else can sing more than that? Dr. Maya Mahajan, you can't. Anyone else? I've got the lyrics there in case you've forgotten the lyrics, you can sing. Come on, you're all... I've been in Maharashtra, though I'm not born in Maharashtra, and I know the song. You don't know the song? You can sing? No. Okay. Can you tell me... Can I... Please... Can I know your name? Ruvia. Okay. Ruvia, do you know the meaning of that first line? Can you tell us? Anyone else? Vriksha Valli Ammasu Vere Vanachore. One minute. One minute. I'll just cut it. Trees are our guest. Trees are our guest. All brothers, sisters, like that. Trees and brothers. Yeah. Yeah. Trees and birds are our best friends. Okay. So basically there are different interpretations. This is to say that trees, creepers, climbers, plants, animals, they are our friends, guests, relatives, and so on. Okay. What a beautiful way of thinking about nature, isn't it? In school and college, we are always taught about nature in terms of biology, stems and leaves and photosynthesis, which completely reduces the plants, you know, it takes away the romance of understanding it, takes away the human relationship that we have with nature. And of course, we degrade nature further by calling them resources, which I am also going to do in a little while. So we make them into resources which can be exploited, modified, changed, transformed through all kinds of technological processes. So here, we have an indigenous way of relating to nature in which you see in the Bhakti tradition. You see it quite often, this is just one example. If you look at the Bhakti saint poets and Sufi saint songs, you find lots of references to nature in this particular way. So, and you see this in other religious traditions also of how human beings don't just depend on nature for survival and livelihood and luxury and many other things, but also they have a responsibility to other forms of life, okay, or in even other religious traditions. For example, this is one of the songs poems written by Guru Nanak about nature, the works of Gandhi. Gandhi was probably India's first environmentalist to actually think about environment in very particular ways, which we are talking about now, he spoke about it 100 years ago. For anybody interested in environment and environment studies, you have to read Hinds Swaraj. Without reading Hinds Swaraj, you cannot either study or teach environment studies. And he also did a lot of practical experiments, you know, things to do with organic agriculture, the problems of chemical fertilizers, nature cure, a lot of things which we talk about now is something he talked about. Some of them of course are quite controversial, but still they offer a perspective on how to relate to nature as human beings. So, what we are going to do in this particular module which is to focus on the social issues of environment is to look at a range of issues and see how we can address these in our classrooms. In what ways should we discuss, introduce these topics into the classroom, how should we elaborate these issues so that students do not get put off because just as there are no social scientists here in your own classrooms also there are going to be engineering and science students. So, how will they take to these topics, will they find it very boring, will they find that this say that this is all nonsense, this is useless. In what ways do we relate technological issues to social economic cultural issues, ok. So, we are going to focus more on the how, why and what questions. I am not going to teach you, I am not going to teach you topics related to social issues of development. I am going to talk of select a certain set of themes which are covered in the UGC syllabus and talk about how we should focus on these topics, what exactly we should focus on and also explain the reasons why these are important in an environment studies course, ok. So, yesterday both Dr. Nikhil and Dr. Maya Mahajan focused on issues of sustainable development and some of you were also asking about solutions to problems. That itself is a very interesting question that you should discuss in the classroom and this is one of the reasons why I introduced Gandhi. When we talk about problems, should we always or necessarily talk of solutions, no. How else can we think of problems, yes. So, that is the question of prevention, isn't it? Gandhi in Hind Swaraj says, we should do away with doctors and hospitals. Now, why would anybody say that we should do away with doctors and hospitals? Because he says, if there are lot of doctors and hospitals it shows there are lot of sick people in society. That is not a desirable situation to be, similarly he says, if there are very large number of lawyers in society, it means that we are always fighting with each other, isn't it? That is not a good sign. So, problems can also be thought of in terms of preventing them from occurring in the first place. A lot of health issues can be addressed if we have sanitation for example, cleanliness, clean drinking water can prevent a lot of health issues. So, one can think of solutions, one can think of prevention. Things have technological choices. One can decide which technologies to choose depending on which society you are a part of. So, for example, if you are thinking of toilets in a tropical country like India where temperatures are high in most parts of India and water is a scarcity, you will have to think of an optimal solution. Imagine if you know like the government says every household should have a toilet. If every household starts flushing its toilet, it is going to be a disaster for India, isn't it? Anybody who has a basic understanding of sanitation and plumbing and water and hydrology will know it is going to be a disaster. Where is all that going to go? It is going to go into our rivers and seas and oceans, ok. We should be thankful that there are many people, millions of people who are difficult in the open. What kind of technologies do we choose? So, for example, the DRDO has come up with a bio-digester, dry toilets, ok. But one problem with that, that is why they are not introducing it is that it emits a lot of methane. So, it is solving one problem creating another. So, we need to know how to choose technologies. In terms of sustainable development, should it be an issue of lifestyle? That is what Mahatma Gandhi was trying to say. What kind of a lifestyle do we lead? What kind of consumption patterns do we have? Should everyone live in a 27-storeyed building like Mukesh Ambani? Is that really necessary? Ok. Shelter is important, but not a 27-storeyed building. Is it a philosophical issue? Because we know there are many people who may not be able to meet their needs, still they are willing to protect nature even at the risk of their own lives. There are others who have everything and will still damage nature. So, it is a philosophical attitude towards life as well. Is it an issue of economic model? What kind of economic model supports production just for the sake of production, just for the sake of profit? Or is it a question of prevention? So, Ramchandra Guha, one of India's most famous sociologists and historian writing on environment, he wrote this famous book called How Much Should We Consume? So, he compares different countries and he says that a country like America which is about one-fourth of the population of India consumes much more than India. So, it is a question of lifestyle, it is a question of technology choice, likewise with reference to a basic human need like transportation. So, Americans, every individual wants to travel in a SUV, every individual in a family has to have an SUV. Whereas, Europe for example, you have much greater public transportation options which you do not have in US, in most cities in US you do not have public transport. So, the consumption pattern is also a cultural issue, it is not simply a technology issue, it is people make choices for various reasons. Why do they make those choices? How do they make those choices? On what basis do they make those choices? These are things we should make students understand as well. So, it is not simply a question of a problem having a solution, I think we should move away from that perspective and that is one of the things that the social science perspective offers because you can see the multiple perspectives here. So, one of the things that a social science perspective offers is to say that no problem has one solution, that no problem has one way of understanding, there are always multiple perspectives and that is something that we have to understand. Secondly, sustainability is not just about ensuring resources are available for future generations. It is also about ensuring how present generations can meet their needs because in countries like India, we still have a very large number of people who are poor and cannot meet their basic needs. So, you cannot ask them to just sacrifice their needs for future generations, that is unethical also. So, it is so it is intergenerational equity, but it is also intragenerational equity. So, again Ramchandra Gohan, Madhav Gadgil who just one of big award yesterday, the Tyler Award for his work on environmental sciences, they wrote this famous book called Ecology and Equity and I will explain more about that how ensuring equity is important for assuring sustainability. In fact, if you look at the UGC syllabus, the equity issue is mentioned several times. So, how is equity related to sustainability is something we are going to understand, but also that raises question of our own stage, our own economic social stage of a particular society at a particular point of time. So, are we able to meet our basic needs? Who are able to meet their basic needs? What technologies do we meet our basic needs? Is that causing more problems? Those kinds of questions we have to constantly ask. Just as you know, later on I will show you a picture of Wangari Mathai who is a famous Kenyan Nobel Prize winner for her movement called the Green Belt Movement. So, there is a video link that I am giving, I will not show it to you, we do not have time, where she talks about how you cannot expect poor people to understand that cutting trees is bad because that is all they have to depend on. They do not have anything else. So, there are certain livelihood options you have to provide before they can actually use their awareness of environmental sustainability issues. Those kind of questions also should be asked, those are also issues we should raise and discuss in the classroom, not simply problems and solutions. So, in terms of a social or social science perspective, these are the things that we do, multiple perspectives, avoid silos as Professor Fatak said yesterday, do not be afraid to criticize or take a different position, including criticize me or yourselves or your teachers or allow your students to criticize you. We all learn from our students all the time because they often think in different ways and having some humility both towards each other as human beings and towards nature. So, it is this idea which technology and science has given us that we are superior, but we can control and dominate over nature that creates this problem of environmental sustainability. Once you accept that nature has as much rights as we do and that nature is important for us, once we learn humility, then sustainability issues come through. So, somewhere you know just because we are engineers and technologies does not mean that we have to develop this arrogant perspective, we can learn how to use technology optimally to meet our needs without damaging environment that humility is something that has to come to us. What does the social science perspective on environment offer other than what I just told you? So, these are some of the things that you can discuss in your class. So, in the class later on in May or June, I will be elaborating these in detail, but these are just some examples that I have given and I will I think some of these were actually touched upon in Dr. Mayas and Nikhil's talks about the IUCN model, the egg model and all of those, the interdependence between different spheres is something that is fundamental and that has to be conveyed to students and you can do this in very interesting ways as I can show you. So, starting with very basic question of what is nature because this is something we all assume we know. So, we all think we know what is nature, but we do not think of nature in exactly the same way. For some of us, nature is something to be appreciated in aesthetic terms, for others nature is a source of livelihood, for others it is a source of profit. We define, classify, categorize nature in different ways. For example, in India, almost all of us worship nature, isn't it? Trees and stones and rocks and mountains and clouds and rain and everything is a god. We have 33 crore gods, everything is a god. And many religions in fact worship nature, it can be a sacred object, it can be an economic object, it can be an aesthetic object, it can be something used for playing, for recreation, all kinds of things. So, nature is both physical and cultural because it is not just an object out there, it is an object we have constructed in different ways in every society. From that perspective, it is a cultural. So, as social scientists we also accept this, but for some societies nature is just a resource to be used and exploited, for others it is something sacred to be preserved. How do we use that knowledge in discussing issues of sustainability? So, these are the different ways in which nature has been looked at by societies around the world for hundreds if not thousands of years. The problem is at one point of time, human beings thought that nature is wild, disordered, it has to be controlled and disciplined, that is when the problem arises. We do not think of ourselves as being in need of disciplining, we think nature needs to be disciplined. Historically, if we think that a particular part of the country is going to be flooded or there is going to be a cyclone you leave somewhere else. Now, you insist on living there and then you create like in Japan, they are creating a huge wall to prevent tsunamis from coming. Environmentalists are aghast as this, it is going to cause huge problems. In Bombay, to prevent the floods they have built walls, retaining walls along the meter river. They have done it in many countries and it has created more floods because a simple understanding of hydrology will tell you that water has to find its way. You block it here, it will go somewhere else, it will flood somewhere else. But unfortunately, our bureaucrats do not seem to be understanding. Our politicians make a lot of money out of making those walls through civil contracts. So, that is where the technology choice comes in. Why not some other choice of technology? Why this choice? Because you can make money. So, you can have a utilitarian perspective of nature that it is there for our use. Of course, it is there for our use. That is not its only use. It also has an intrinsic view. So, later on Professor Ranjan Panda will come and talk about the deep ecology perspective where we say that nature also has rights like human beings have rights. And nature is important for itself, not just because it is of use to us. So, if you think of these different kinds of views, then students begin to appreciate all the different ways in which we are talking about sustainability. Otherwise, you know, it becomes a very stilted kind of argument between development versus environment which takes us nowhere. Ultimately, it leads to disaster only. Neither to development nor environment. We have to understand that there are all these different perspectives. So, over a period of time, human beings have changed their way of understanding nature. How that has happened is something we have to convey, ok, beyond just an economic understanding of nature. So, what I usually do in the classroom is to give a few informal quizzes, ask them questions. Some of them look very silly, some of them are serious. Let me just give you some examples and you can think of other examples to use in the classroom. So, I just ask them, what is this? Everybody knows it's a fish, ok. But then you ask people to think about different ways of thinking about a fish. And then you find a fish can be all of these things, isn't it? And depending on how you look at fish, your own view of environmental sustainability will be different because fisheries today is in a huge crisis. Fisheries provides livelihoods to thousands of people, but fish stock is getting exhausted everywhere, partly due to climate change, partly due to environmental degradation, overfishing, all kinds of things. Because fisheries has become industrialized, commercialized, ok. But it can also be various, fish can be pets. We keep goldfish in our house, aquarium, recreation, fun. It can be a lot of things. Likewise, something like this is a lightning. But then people look at lightning in many different ways. So, lightning is also a God in many cultures. Lightning is the weapon of a God, ok. It can be a source of electricity, it's a weather phenomenon. You understand objects of nature in many different ways. Or a river, for example. So, in India, for example, all rivers are sacred. Doesn't matter, we still pollute it. We say it's sacred and then we go on to pollute it, ok. Or one can try to inculcate an awareness of environmental issues and how different people are addressing these environmental issues, combining technological, biological, social aspects. So, one could ask these kinds of questions. This is Wangari Mathai, the Kenyan woman who won a Nobel prize. Ironically, she died of cancer, ok. She herself died of cancer. So, you can go to that website and watch a video about her where she says very interesting things bringing to the issues of social equality, democracy, how democracy is important, for example, for sustaining the environment. Because in Africa, as you know, there are a lot of dictators who just want to exploit everything in nature, make huge profits and then run away somewhere, ok. So, democracy is also very important. How democracy is important for protecting the environment is something she talks about there. Harish Hande is this famous IIT Kharagpur alumnus who started this company called Selco India, which is one of India's biggest solar power companies. So, they provide solar energy in thousands of rural villages in India. So, again, you look at some of his YouTube videos where he gives very interesting examples of how solar energy is not just about environmental sustainability, but how it helps the poor to make their ends meet. It helps them in their livelihoods. He gives case studies of street vendors in Bangalore who use solar lanterns. They can work longer into the night, ok. Or solar lanterns help children to study in the night where they do not have electricity. So, there are all kinds of social implications of technology beyond environment. If all of these come together, then they are more likely to succeed. People are willing to support environmentally sustainable technological options. Or about disasters, ok. Minamata is one of the… All of you have heard of Minamata? Yeah. Japan. Japan. So, it was one of the first modern cases of industrial disasters much before Bhopal, ok. So, these kind of examples tell students how over a period of time, human beings learnt of the consequences of technology. It was not that people did this purposely, ok. It was not a deliberate attempt to poison people. Of course, there was corruption involved in this case. Some people knew, scientists knew. The factories bribed officials and let out their effluents untreated into the river. So, this is the first case of industrial poisoning where large species of fish, birds and human beings were affected by mercury poisoning because of industrial effluents. So, over a period of time, human beings learnt how to address these kinds of challenges arising from their own technological advancement, ok. So, we do not want to make monsters out of people. We do not want to say that all technology is bad. That over a period of time, human beings learnt. We try out different things, we experiment. Some things succeed, some things do not. It is only if we know and then do not pay heed, there is a problem. Then you become a monster, ok, knowingly if you do something. Or this book. So, Rachel Carson's Silent Spring was published in the early 1960s. This was the first book to scientifically document the effect of chemical fertilizers and pesticides on human health, ok. In parts of India where chemical fertilizers were intentionally used, you actually find traces of chemicals in mother's milk and breast milk. You can imagine how deeply it has gone into the environmental systems. So, she was the first to scientifically document it. So, you can show these pictures and names and ask students if they know and then have discussions around those and show short videos about them which are easily available. In India, of course, there have also been studies of endosulphane which is banned everywhere in the world, but not in India, ok. Very interesting. In Kerala, there is a lot of research which shows the adverse impact on human beings because it has been used in, used to spray, using helicopters for cashew plantations, which is the most dangerous because it spreads over a wider area. One can in the classroom also use live and current examples. So, I have just given you two examples from yesterday's newspaper and today's newspaper. So, in the classroom, we should be able to relate to what is happening currently so that students then learn about it. These are not just abstract issues to be learned from textbooks and guides or from internet. These are real things happening to real people. That is how we can inculcate interest among students. So, Costa Rica, as we all know, is one of the most environment-friendly countries. It is the only country in the world which doesn't have an army. So, what Dr. Nikhil was saying yesterday, our thinking about peace and democracy is related to our thinking about environment. So, it's a country which has abolished its army, saying we don't want to fight with anybody, ok. And their presidents have won Nobel prizes for solving conflicts between other countries. But they are also one of the most eco-friendly countries in the world. In fact, Costa Rica has a lot of oil and they have refused to drill for oil because they say it's environmentally very bad for the country. Instead, they use geothermal and hydroelectric power, which are relatively cleaner sources of energy. So, that's why we are saying we can make choices. That is something we have to constantly keep telling students that we can make choices. The reason I put that first one there is it mentions that Madhav Gadgil won the award not just for his work as an environmental scientist, but also for his work with recognizing cultural, social, economic realities, bringing those two together. Yesterday, I was talking about Jared Diamond when I was sitting there. This is just an example. So, one could use these kinds of examples. I'm just giving you two. I don't have enough time there. One could use these kinds of examples to show how issues of social security, war, peace, democracy, environment, these are all related. So, from a social perspective, this makes much more sense. It's not just about protecting the environment. It's about protecting ourselves, protecting ourselves from war, giving ourselves more freedom, independence, autonomy, all of those kind of issues. They're all related. And that's why it's much more important to address environmental issues. Not simply because there is some romantic environmentalist who wants to preserve the environment nature in its pristine form. That's not the only reason. So, I have summarized it here. And you can just... There's a video that I've given there. Cuba is a very modern example of how countries manage environmental crisis. So, Cuba, as you know, is one of the few communist countries in the world. So, they were heavily dependent on Soviet Russia for cheap, subsidized chemical fertilizers. Cuba, as you know, Cuba and India are the largest sugar producers in the world, sugar for the sugar plantations. Once Soviet Union collapsed, they stopped getting cheap fertilizers. So, the economy was about to collapse. Now, Cuba is the first country to completely convert to organic agriculture. To such an extent, they are successful that their cities make enough food to feed themselves and export. They are so successful. Now, if Cuba can do it, why not us? Why is organic agriculture more expensive? When chemical fertilizers, chemical agriculture, you know, the food that you can buy in the shop which is grown using chemical fertilizers should be more expensive. But organic is more expensive. Is it not strange? Is it not stupid? Because you have to certify that this is organic. Whereas, if you use chemicals, you don't have to certify. We live in a very strange kind of situation. That is why it costs more. But it also shows the amount of money we put in for research. The amount of money we put in for chemical agriculture is a thousand times compared to the amount of money we put in to do research on organic agriculture. Again, it's a question of what kind of choices we make as engineers, technologists, scientists and so on. One more example here. So, Jared Diamond gives a lot of examples. And you can think of your own examples from history where Japan is the opposite of the Mayans. The Mayan civilization collapsed because they did not pay attention to issues of environment. The Japanese paid attention. So, Japan has one of the highest population densities in the world, the number of people living per square unit of area. But all of those people live in 30% of the area, 70% is forest in Japan. How did they manage that? So, you can see even 400 years ago they thought about these issues and thought of solutions. Technological as well as policy solutions to environmental crisis. In addition, what I do in the classroom and what you can also do is to carry out activities or give students assignments on understanding the complexity of environmental issues. Because one of the things that's happening today is that as awareness increases, we also tend to adopt very simplistic solutions which can also be more dangerous. So, simple example is cups. Like Dr. Nikhil was saying yesterday, plastic is not always bad. Plastic is a byproduct of petrochemicals. If you don't use it, you have to think of a way of disposing them off. Otherwise they can cause more danger to you. Or many people say use paper cups. They are biodegradable. But then where does paper come from? Or some people say use coolers like we say in India. Clay cups. Somebody did research to show that coolers or cups made of burnt clay, they take 2000 years to biodegrade. It's not very easy. So, we are all highly educated people. We should not be going in for those kind of very simplistic kind of solutions. They tried in the railways also. It's not so easy. And clay is the most part of the top soil. It's the most fertile part of the soil. If you use clays for making cups, what will happen to agriculture? How will you grow crops? These are things one has to think of. Plastics or natural, chemical or organic, fossil fuels or biofuels. One can make students do an exercise of the comparative benefits and disadvantages of different solutions that are offered in public. Biofuels, for example, is offered as a solution to fossil fuels. But Brazil is already facing this crisis where millions and millions of acres of land has been brought into biofuels. There's no land to grow food. If you import food, the cost of food is going to increase. And in a poor country like India, people cannot afford imported food. You cannot even afford food that is grown here. So, these are different ways in which one has to try and criticize common assumptions which make them think about both the social as well as economic and environmental consequences of these things. Just to give you one more example, you know, we say plastic in general is bad. Mainly it is a question of disposal because we dispose of plastic in very bad ways, which cause problems. But there can be other advantages, social advantages, you know. So, I once heard a lecture by a former Vice Chancellor of Mumbai University who was saying the poor people in India, for example, they cannot afford to buy steel pots or vessels. They use plastic pots to store water in their homes. Or it's only the rich people who can buy leather chapels and shoes. The poor people buy plastic chapels. So, poor people can afford certain kinds of goods and commodities because it is made of certain products. That is also important for us to recognize. You cannot just dismiss it. Or, you know, in many Indian villages we still practice the caste system where there are different kinds of cups for different castes. Plastic eliminates that. Everybody is same. Doesn't matter who you are. Everybody gets the plastic cup. Okay? So, these are some examples to show how there are complex socio-economic and environmental aspects related to every technological choice. And we need to be clear about what is it that we are addressing. One of the things that we, that affects the choice of solutions and technologies that affects how we manage the environment is also the legal aspects, the laws. So, if you have any of, of course all of you must be following the uses syllabus. We also talk about some of the legal aspects, the acts for example. Since the uses syllabus was found many years ago, the Forest Rights Act which is one of the most important environmental legislations in India which came into existence in 2006 is not mentioned there. It's one of the most important acts because it gives people access to certain kinds of resources so that they don't degrade the environment in other places. So, I don't have the link there, but Lekha Menda in Gadjiroli district of Maharashtra is the first village to implement this law. So, it's a very interesting 10-minute video made by the people of the village themselves. And it shows how a law which is for the benefit of the people is opposed by the government itself. So, last year there was an environmentalist in Mumbai who was fighting a lot of environmental cases. So, when he went to fight a case against an illegal dumping of garbage by the municipal corporation, the judge asked the government advocate, why is it that most of the cases that come to court are against the government? You are supposed to implement the law whereas you are infringing the law and people are fighting cases against the government. What is this kind of government? The judge was forced to ask. That's what is happening here where the government itself was not implementing the law and people had to fight to get the law implemented. So, it gives very interesting raises very interesting issues of policies of laws of decentralization the 73rd amendment to the constitution which give Panchayat's power which then gives them power over forest resources. So, all these issues of governance of democracy of law are brought together in that one particular case. So, when we talk about legal aspects it's not just about what the law can do to protect the environment but how people can use the law to protect the environment themselves that is what this is about. Likewise, the environment protection act which is one of the most violated acts in the country. And now this government wants to do away with the social impact assessment component of the EIA. So, the EIA act there is a mandatory component that you also have to do a social impact assessment. Public hearing, public consultation all of these are important according to the new land acquisition law they are trying to do away with it. So, that is because they recognize that there are certain sections of the population who are dependent on natural resources for their living and therefore if you think that you have to acquire natural resources for certain public purposes you have to look at the impact on those populations. So, how do you teach population population growth and so on in the UGC syllabus it's one of the topics isn't it? Population explosion. Population explosion. So, population explosion is it good or bad? Bad. Why is it bad? Population explosion leads to a negative impact on the environment that is it will there is no positivity in that population as there is a resource utilization, more resource utilization more population means more resource utilization and more carbon dioxide we are putting into the environment. So, it is only a negative side, but only exceptional one in millions only good brains will come out. Only one in million. Then they may have a good impact on the environment. That's all. Thank you. Anyone else? Sir, population explosion is bad that is obviously we can accept but population is good. Population is good. Because whenever a country have highest population there is more manpower and these are the people going to determine the economy of the grown country. So, population is good. Population explosion is bad. Thank you very much because that's an important distinction we often forget. There's a difference between population and population growth. So, population just refers to the number of people living in a particular yeah. Congestion. So, congestion or density? Population congestion. Actually population should be One minute. I'll just who is it? Just please hold on. I just want to go back to that point earlier. So, it's also to do with population being necessary to produce certain things to do work to earn an income to support other people to do everything else. So, population is necessary. Okay. But that also brings in the other question that population is not just about density or congestion and numbers but also about quality. Okay. It's about how educated people are what abilities they have what capabilities they have. Okay. How are they able to use the knowledge? What kind of institutions do they make to ensure they don't kill each other and do not exploit each other? Those kind of things are important. Those are aspects of quality also which makes sense. Yeah. Please. Sir, rather than saying population or population explosion I think what we should count for the productivity. Productivity. Okay. What is the productive value of that population that is more important in terms of numbers though they are increasing but if it is more productive then there is no problem. That's also an aspect. See, why is it that Prime Minister Narendra Modi is inviting foreign companies to make in India? Why do so many companies want to go to India and China to manufacture because those countries don't have the population to make? So, it's also an issue of finding people to produce to make. Okay. So, population in that sense becomes a strength because there are other countries which do not have those populations. New Zealand, for example, is a country which has more sheep than human beings. Okay. So, they have to depend on other countries to produce their goods. So, you also need population to produce. So, their productivity levels also is an important determinant of what is an optimal size as you mentioned. It should be optimized according to the level country-wise. Per person, per requirement of resources per person in every country is different. Okay. And country like Germany the population is decreasing whereas country like India, China, Pakistan the population is increasing. It should be optimized country-wise. Okay. So, there's a need for to optimize population is one view. Anyone else from this side? Sir, population is good. If population is less, we don't get the gas subsidy. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. So, subsidies are important. Yes, sir. Pakistan paying more amount to the gas cylinder and India is paying half of that. Yes. But constructive way of population is always invited. Yeah. Thank you. Actually, it's a very important issue because one of the reasons why in India there was excessive use of chemical fertilizers was because government subsidized very high rates people did not use them only they just use them indiscriminately. Okay. Or water. If I can just talk about subsidy on water this water of water Sir, I want to disturb in between. Sorry. Pardon? I want to make a question. Yeah. What in my view like a country like India should become a country of Pandavas not Corvus. Okay. Because as we correlate to the Mahabharat one of us know they were lesser skilled so the five people could manage hundred. So, I think population but skillful population is more important. Thank you. Okay. Just go back to this issue of subsidy because that's related partly to population but partly also to management of environment and how we use them. So, this bottle of water any idea how much it costs 10 rupees, 12 rupees if you buy it in the airport it will be 25 rupees Okay. So, it depends. Okay. Now any idea how much we in Mumbai pay for the water supplied by the municipal corporation. Huh? One minute. 7.5 say per what? Later. Okay. 6 rupees per liter. No, not for the bottle. Per kilo liter. Okay. 10 rupees per kilo liter. 10 rupees per kilo liter. Anyone else? Okay. It's approximately 4 rupees something 4 rupees 30 or something for 1000 liters is what we pay. Imagine how much money these people must be making. Okay. We are all in the wrong profession. Okay. So, what we are trying to say is also that the cost so when I get water at 4 rupees for 1000 liters I don't realize its value. So, I also waste it. It's also subsidized. But actually it's also to be almost in treatment and everything it's around about 10 to 15 rupees per kilo liter. But we also do not realize the larger consequences of supplying water at that price. But we are not paying and taking. No. We are not paying and taking. That is why. No. We are paying. I pay water. End of the month or end of the year. Yes. But not immediately here bottle we are paying and taking. Yes. But the cost calculation does not include many other things. Okay. No. So. Yeah. So, what is the cost to the environment of pumping out so much water and supplying them and then ultimately where does it go through the drains? Hundreds of liters just flushed down through the drains. Okay. So, for doing something harmful we pay very little and the larger cost the environmental cost nobody pays for it. So, the costing is something very important and Professor Narayanan will talk about it later. But here because the issue came up through subsidies and population and all of that it's very important to recognize but it doesn't mean that subsidy is bad because things like water is a basic human necessity. You cannot say that because you cannot afford water I will not give you water. Government cannot give you water. It is a basic necessity. It is the duty of the government also to provide water provided the costs are understood and accounted for. One more thing is that actually carbon credits we are getting better because of the higher cost. Yes. The carbon credits also we are getting. So, that's also an issue with population. Okay. Let's get back to this population issue. So, there seems to be a consensus generally that population explosion is bad that population must be optimized for resources and so on. Now, these are extremely complicated issues for example, on what basis will you optimize? On what basis will you say that relative to resources this is the optimal population because it is related to some lifestyle some consumption okay. So, does it mean that we have to optimize the population as per the consumption pattern of people living in America of people living in China okay or of people living in Bhutan who have something called a gross happiness index where they also factor in what damage the economic growth does to the environment the factor in that's also part of green GDP some of you. So, India now the government of India has a does green accounting one of our faculty members is a member of that committee. So, for achieving a particular level of economic growth how much of environmental resources have we used up okay. And will it affect our future GDP? That's something we try to calculate but those depend on what kind of consumption patterns we have. So, you can talk about basic resources that we all need food clothing shelter you can talk of luxury needs that beyond food clothing and shelter we need many other things we need an SUV we need air conditioners okay. We need theaters we need malls we need movies we need a lot of things so how do you optimize it becomes very difficult to do that. But also in how do you assess that population growth is sub optimal beyond a certain level. So, is it with reference to quality is it by saying that people are not able to meet their own needs because there are countries which clearly have no resources still are very rich like Singapore Japan makes the best automobiles out of steel but they don't have any steel they get it from India they get iron ore from India okay. So, in a globalized world even if you don't have resources you can get resources from somewhere else that's not necessarily an issue. So, the question is to what extent is population a problem or is population explosion or growth a problem because these can sometimes be misused these kinds of arguments. So, it was in the 19th century that a famous priest comes scholar called Thomas Malthus who made this argument that people are poor because there is too much population and of course he was criticized and it has been criticized hundreds of times by many scholars to say that argument is simply wrong. Poverty is not because of excessive population. There are countries which very small populations which are poor many African countries very large populations which are not poor it depends on how they manage their economies, what kind of skills they have, what kind of knowledge they have what kind of technologies they come up with. So, the main mechanism through which human beings overcame the problem of food scarcity is through technology. Even as population continued to increase we came up with better technologies to improve food productivity to address the problem of food scarcity and poverty and so on. So, technology can address that problem policies can address that problem. So, there is no such thing as a simple optimal population for a particular country or resources it depends it depends on many factors whereas you know we know the most famous example is Hitler who tried to kill off millions of people using this population argument it has been tried by Sanjay Gandhi in India and many others also. So, we have to be very careful here saying that population explosion is necessarily a problem because if you have a highly skilled population it can be a strength other countries will come to you ok. So, many foreign companies are locating their R&D laboratories in India GE is the most famous example Microsoft Google because they do not have enough skilled people in those countries or enough people to work at a particular level of wages. So, there are many factors which determine the relationship between population and environment those kind of simplistic arguments which it is related to lifestyle. So, America to go back to that earlier example has a much smaller population than India it still degrades the environment more than India does or more than China does. So, there is no simple correlation between population size and environmental degradation of consumption. So, consumption can be more if you have more money to spend it is as simple as that which is why again it is important to go back to Gandhi because Gandhi was saying there is enough in nature to meet human beings needs but not greed everybody cannot be greedy similar is the issue if you want to talk about urbanization which is one of the topics covered in the UJC syllabus. So, you have very complex social and environmental issues here because in India we know that there is an agrarian crisis agricultural productivity is low 70% of the population if they depend on agriculture it happens in no other country in the world they will be poor because you cannot have a level of productivity which is so high that it can support 70% of the population it is almost impossible unless you have alternative sources of employment in the rural areas. So, some amount of urbanization may be desirable cities have many facilities amenities education courts all kinds of facilities they have which villages may not have. So, maybe take these facilities to villages that is another issue but the mere fact of urbanization leaves a huge ecological footprint because we know city people consume more than rural people in general we consume more we also waste more ok but from a social science perspective it is important we recognize other issues here Mumbai is one of those few countries where we get 24 hours electricity ok you go a few kilometers outside Mumbai you would not find it but in Mumbai you find it and of course most of us also get water throughout the day at least for a few hours in a day some of us get it 24 hours how does this happen is it replicable everywhere is it possible to provide this everywhere in India no isn't it. So, there is a lot of research shows that the benefits that Mumbai gets is at the cost of somebody else compromise on others. So, a lot of lakes and rivers around Mumbai in the Vaitarna, Aparvaitarna Lower Vaitarna, Tansa, Tulsi, Vihar all of these are completely cordoned off local people who used to fishing there use those lakes for what agriculture for irrigation they are banned from using it. So, you have deprived somebody else of water to get us the resource that creates certain kinds of inequalities and then what happens they come and live in slums in Mumbai that is what happens or forests so we all know from high school biology that forests are important to cause precipitation for rainfall to occur forest cover is required is it not when clouds come they tend to rain in those areas where there is forest cover so forests around Mumbai near places where which are catchment areas for the lakes the people have been banned from accessing those forests which they used to do traditionally so their livelihoods are gone what will they do they will either use those forests illegally which is even more dangerous because legally if you allow them you can control it how much can you access the forest rights act does that you can have 2 acres of land per family not more than that they will take 4 acres 5 acres 6 acres depending on how much they can bribe which is what happens so there are rural urban resource transfer issues which create further inequalities and there are certain kinds of economic models including the pricing of water that I mentioned so some people do not have water at all other people get water at very low prices okay these are larger models of governing managing resources which also we need to understand which we need to convey to in the classroom so again it is not a simple problem of degradation or scarcity inequality the creation of inequality is very closely linked to issues of environmental degradation and access to environmental resources so that is the topic that we come to now yes you are mentioning about the Bombay getting the electricity through it is the case in Chennai also but I am from Pamuthu Pamuthu is the city which is known for industries we were representing to the government why don't we get power just like Chennai so it has got reduced for their Chennai they are giving some 20 hours or 18 hours now that is the issue will rise it is not going to continue forever this kind of practice it will rise so it is an issue that I was just giving Mumbai as an example because that is what I am familiar with I am sure it is an issue that affects cities around the country and other parts of the world as well I am sorry sir for the last 5 minutes I am bit Pajal myself listening you and also looking at this particular slide of equity I have a more systemic question that is I think that we are going to basically target students higher teachers as we are learning from you but ultimate stakeholder is the student so the future citizen and if we consider that then my question is that just few kilometers 20 kilometers away from this campus how could someone can build a 27 story building as you mentioned and he is a reasonably educated person and must have gone through this kind of philosophy in US as far as my knowledge goes and at the same time there are a group of people who are on daily basis helping him to get million liters of water and the group of people who are helping him to get million liters of water they are equally educated person I am Pajal because if the educated person are doing like this then what is the fun of learning this and spreading across this knowledge that's actually a very good question I think we should give him an applause I think and that actually that question strikes fundamentally at what I am attempting to say and maybe I am not very successful as that because just as I have been arguing that we should not make simplistic connections between different kinds of phenomena likewise one should not assume that a certain level of economic growth a certain level of awareness a certain level of knowledge or education by itself will solve these problems so the question is how do human beings acquire certain aspirations how do they formulate certain ideas how do they decide what kind of lives they want to lead and how does society as a whole try to control some of these kind of things that you know there cannot be this kind of inequality, inequality is okay if some people are able to meet their basic needs but if deprivation of one section happens and at the same time somebody has excessive consumption of resources that is a problem that is a real social problem okay so why is it that these things happen despite education is a question and that is why towards the end of the presentation I have a slide on that because the UGC syllabus keeps mentioning about the role of the individual in sustainable development or in addressing environmental issues now I am not saying that is not important but the problem of the environment has reached such enormous scales especially with global warming and climate change is that it is no longer an issue that can be addressed by individuals by targeting individuals you find like the examples that I gave you of Japan or of the failure of the mind stabilization or of Cuba it requires people to come together think out solutions come up with policies, laws which can be implemented to address these problems if we depend purely on awareness or education they can help to some extent but then there are too many other pressures on us even on us as an individual may not want to buy a car but I may buy it because of various other reasons including family and status and all of that I may not want to have an air conditioner but I go I succumb to that pressure I succumb to various kinds of pressure so depending on individual solutions will not work in the long run so that awareness is important I am also trying to say here that for a long time most students especially including our own generation were not exposed to this kind of thinking so maybe this person who has built a 27 stories house is highly educated abroad but I do not know if he has actually been exposed to this kind of thinking and even if he was whether he would have made a different choice ok so the choices we make are dependent on many things how do we make these choices is what we should question so some of you may have heard of E.F. Shumaker a famous economist who wrote this book called Smallest Beautiful and the subtitle is an essay in Buddhist economics so that is because Buddhist economics tells us to be satisfied with what you have not to aspire for unnecessary luxuries that is what they are trying to do in Bhutan as well ok so there are there is a culture in every society which either encourages you to over consume and exploit resources or encourages you to be satisfied with what you have not to over exploit those factors also we need to understand ok that is what explains why we have some people like this gentleman who has built a 27 story house you cannot entirely depend on education accounting it one of our PhD students she did research on solid waste management in Mumbai household solid waste management and her finding was very interesting that in households where children were taught about good practices for solid waste management there was better practice even though the parents were very educated it did not matter but if the children were taught about solid waste management in schools as we know Japan is getting over from India because of economy and power etc similar cases with the US US is getting different resources, good resources, quality resources from different countries because of IMF control etc etc do you think that after getting literacy and after getting very good economy people has got license to exploit the resources more and more and degrade the environment more and more do you think I don't know what I think what you are saying is right those are the kind of questions we should be asking ask to the policy makers ask to the policy makers I have a kind of maybe want to play the devil's advocate a question is not meant for you but I think for the entire audience in response to that question you did answer it but I don't know how many caught it my question is we are all operating under the assumption that education or awareness creation is going to be a very big part of the solution in achieving sustainability or something like that but I am just imagining like a thought experiment that I walk into the office of the CEO of a maybe petrochemical company and say that hello Mr. CEO your company is polluting the creek and it is destroying the mangroves and it is causing so much of social problems and health problems and buddy you got to stop it and that CEO is going to go oh really I was not aware of this I didn't know anything about it now I am going to change everything and that's it my company is actually going to be sustainable what are the chances that this is going to happen as if that CEO doesn't know it already in fact if you propose this to him he will probably call head of one of the research departments and they will create more awareness in you about what are the emissions and things like that of his company they probably know it much better than you and in fact he will probably call security and throw you out just to add to this just one second yesterday we had one slide on attitudinal change even though we are educated unless we are free from our vested interest and unless we change our attitude I think you can explain better in your life education one of the things we should remember especially about environmental issues is to catch them young because one of the things we are talking about engineering students who are already adults so we don't start this at the school level in Japan for example they started the school level at the age of 3 and 4 in lower KG they are taught about segregation of waste for example ok so we start much later and it's too late by then because it's already competing with their various other aspirations goals objectives in life that's one of the things but just to give you a funny example he is now 15 years old when he was 5 years old his in school in his class he was taught about water conservation and it made a deep impact on him so the next day he went to the toilet and I was also wanted to go I waited until he came out and then I was going and he said why didn't you tell me you also wanted to go to the toilet we could have flushed after you also did it because he felt that individually flushing once for two people would have saved water but that's what I'm saying because immediately I could see there was an impact of what they taught in school that he was able to think of this ok so you have to start very early it's not just something that you can begin much later in life adding to this I just want to give one more example in developed countries and so called rich countries they'll provide books free to their school going children and after the completion of the session they get back those books and distribute them to the next session but in poor country in India all students are they are bound all parents are bound to buy new books so this is also an exploitation of the natural resources I completely agree with you in fact my me and my wife we often talk about this that many children they maintain their books in excellent condition and there is really no reason unless the syllabus changes to change the textbooks there is so much of wastage there and you know this is happening in a country like India which is actually known for recycling we are people who don't throw away anything even if things stop working we keep them at home ok we sell them to the kabadiwala to the raddiwala it was there but it is going because now there is a status aspect that has to be new whereas originally we never throw away things we always used to repair things recycle them so that culture again that is what I am trying to say there is a cultural aspect to it which we need to remember and protect so protecting the environment has to be a cultural activity which translates into attitudes, awareness, education and so on it is not just about individual choices ok one question this is as you told about your experience with your son I am also having the same experience with my son actually the children the students in the schools are very best target group for making aware or involved in the waste management actually what he used to do he bring all the chocolate covers and other things he would have it in his packet or in his bag it is my responsibility to clean the bag clean the very day now he is in college first year he still follows the same but he cannot come to the final level of disposing it properly because another one more thing they are making very high amount of obsolescence in their material commodities what they are using they are not having a practice of repeated use rising the number of times they use they are going for new materials new products even the pencil what they are using these are some things which they have to change that is what I want to add okay yeah thanks anyone else yes somebody here hello sir you are told about many practices which are going on in cuba and other countries like organic farming and all but here in India even being educated we are not practicing it because I think we don't have belongingness if that comes in everybody then I think even we can become countries like cuba and all okay thanks for that point yes so it's also a question of as you say belongingness it's a question of what we the term we use is taking ownership for a particular idea that this is important for us as a society as a country as a city as a ward municipal ward village and so on and then deciding that this is what we want to go go ahead with so again that's pointing to whatever saying as a cultural issue so how come so America is a good example because they may be very patriotic but they are also very individualistic kind of country so that's why the stress on individual automobiles and not on public transport for example okay so choices we make are individual choices but also there are social choices, cultural choices, common choices that we make okay yeah anyone else yes okay one time I was teaching a society or environment and these kids school kids only one of the kids asked me sir I want to change myself no problem but I'm changing with trend everything but my society my surrounding society they will ignore me so I have to keep it up with them yes for that I have to do yes so even you want to change the society is not allowing you to keep certain kinds of peer pressures that's what I think issues related to status so in India one of the things we sociologists we always mention you have a microwave oven once a family reaches a particular status you buy a microwave oven you put a nice embroidered cloth on top of it and cover it nobody uses it because you have to have a microwave oven it doesn't matter if you don't use it you have to have it in your house okay so it's a question of buying certain things, buying certain things because you are supposed to have it not because you really need it I just want to say it's very good and interesting that you bring out these stories because what makes teaching very boring is to just teach on the basis of slides or on the basis of textbooks these personalized kind of stories either from your own families and households or things that you know from newspapers, media these are what makes the classrooms much more interesting especially in a course like environment studies which students are forced to take if they don't want to do they think they have not come here to do it so one way of making it interesting is to raise these kind of questions and especially the kind of provocative questions that you raised Mr. Mitra you know that because that's a very important question to ask and that's a question which is also very difficult to answer okay because it's a question that we all ask ourselves all the time also how do we change ourselves why is it that we refuse to change despite having awareness so posing those kinds of questions in the classroom really makes them think about these issues but also relate to all these other issues that we are talking about it's not simply a question of technological change or governance change yeah I have an avoid using my bike rather I want to go by cycle even for a vegetable shop or something nearby but the problem is taking my cycle and going on my street at least I have to answer 10 people why I am going by bicycle they will ask what happened to your bike why you are not so it creates an uncomfortable situation for me rather to take your bike thank you in fact you know I sometimes want to walk depending on how much time I have to come to office I just live a kilometer away from my workplace I walk and every day I inevitably meet somebody who wants to give me a lift I tell them I want to walk they wonder why this person wants to walk you know it's so hard it's humid it's raining this person must be mad to walk a similar problem I also faced from college days when I was in Godrej and even now I go by cycle I was famous as cycle wali ladki but see that is one way to generate awareness sometimes they will follow you even in Godrej and many places when you explain why you are going by cycle they follow you so it is like setting example initially you may feel little awkward but then you can set an example and they may follow you sir I have a question I think it is the last one you were talking about organic farming and it seems as far as I am having knowledge organic farming is something which is done without using chemical fertilizers now Delhi is a place where we have lots of Yamuna this thing land which is left over after the floods are gone and because the bed of the Yamuna has become shallow because of various reasons all of us know so what happens is that organic farming is done on that bed of Yamuna and in the last 4-5 years we have seen that a rise in meningitis and diseases which are coming into people because of organic farming so what I feel is that measure should be taken before we are going into all these organic farming because they may be more hazardous if they come into the food chain so this is another story that I wanted to tell thank you now I got to know lots of example from here and there I don't know how many of you know the story of IIT itself I was an alumni of IIT Bombay I passed out in 2010 now what I realized in 2010 now this is 2015 now those who are coming for the first time they find that lots of greenery in IIT campus but believe me sir this is 30% less than 2010 they are 30% less even more sir knows me better than me but you know what IIT people say it's just 200% more than 1970 that I don't know but what I found that now lots of construction is going on around the campus lots of construction this is the second smallest IIT among the all 7 after the delias are smallest and IIT Bombay is the second smallest we have only 550 acres the point is lots of construction is going on so I can remember the ground now there are lots of construction is going on even my time we were also playing and that time no construction was there people everything was going smoothly now my question is is this the requirement which is coming prior to the awareness so that is I feel that maybe the requirement which is coming prior to the awareness because being in IIT I come top to bottom even the snakes inside the campus we are finding they are also educated they never write anyone so they are concerning in IIT Bombay everyone is very much educated we are all coming to the IIT to gain something knowledge but being in IIT you can don't find that even lots of construction is gone and maybe in the near future much more tree will go out thank you sir only one question I will ask you in spite of all this extra construction you know we have certain kinds of animals which go from greener areas to this area like the leopards for example so it's very one must ask the leopards why they prefer IIT campus to the Borivali National Park maybe they find something they were they are coming here to get a degree I think okay so let's break for a while and then we will come back