 And welcome, we are so glad to have you back here for another episode of The Non-Profit Show. And today's guest is Laura Engel, CEO with Abeja Solutions. And she's here to share five tips for choosing best appeal photos. So stay with us because these five you are going to want to write down. But before we jump into conversation with Laura we want to remind our viewers and our listeners who you are looking at or possibly listening to. So Julia Patrick is here today, CEO of the American Non-Profit Academy. And I'm Jarrett Ransom, your non-profit nerd, CEO of the Raven Group. We are so extremely honored to have the continued support from our amazing friends also known as presenting sponsors. So a huge shout out of gratitude goes over to our besties at Bloomerang, American Non-Profit Academy, your part-time controller, non-profit thought leader, fundraising academy at National University, staffing boutique, non-profit nerd and non-profit tech talk. These companies, I like to remind you they're here for you. Yes, they invested us as part of the non-profit show but they're investing in you, your mission, everything to do with the non-profit sector. So please do check them out. They're amazing. And hey, we have produced nearly 800 episodes and there are so many places you can find us including streaming on broadcast platform, podcast platform, so wherever you listen to your podcast and now we have an app. So you can download the app on Android, iPhone, it will remind you every single day of the new episode that has been uploaded. So again, so many places to consume this information and entertainment and also so many places where you can share it with your board, your staff, your volunteers, so many different stakeholders. So please do check that out. And again, our guest today, none other than Laura Ingalls, again CEO at Abehah Solutions. Welcome back, Laura. Thank you, Jarrett. Yeah, tell us a little bit about Abehah but I always love to hear what the word Abehah stands for. Well, you know, we're based in Phoenix and Abehah means be in Spanish. That's because it can be a little painful to get direct mail done from the writing, design, the production, all of the data. And we really aim to take the sting out of direct mail. I love that. I love it. We love a pun, what can I say? No, I love it. And I think, you know, I think of when I look at your logo, I think of, you know, being busy in the hive of the nonprofit sector and all the things that we have to do. And we take people that are good at programming or working their passion and try and turn them into marketers. And that can be a disaster. And so I always value the things that you bring to us and talk about. And this is something that I don't think we talk about enough. And that's the power of photography. And when we're working with photography, whether it be print or in digital, what are some things that we need to really be thinking about? And so your first thing is for a best appeal, for a rule to follow, is to make eye contact. Yeah, absolutely. There, you know, as you said, photography is often and fundraising photography in particular, which is different, is often an afterthought at nonprofits. We write the appeal and then we scramble to find the photograph. But experts like Claire Axelrad actually say, you should choose the photograph first. And then write to it, which I think is really interesting. So my first point, yeah, is make eye contact. When you're actually taking a photo, if you look at websites like Save the Children, Care, the ASPCA, you will always see eyes looking back at you, the donor. And there's a reason for that. Really early in life, one of our first milestones is actually making contact with our parents. And we need that to create that emotional connection. So I can't tell you how many nonprofit websites, so many nonprofit donate pages I go to, that don't have those eyes looking at you. They have someone like the woman in this photo who's looking down or looking to the side. That's kind of a journalistic photo versus a fundraising photo where someone is looking at you. So right now go to your donate page and if you don't have someone looking out at the donor making that emotional connection, change it immediately. You know, Laura, just you saying that seems very much like a duh, like why have we not done that? And how have we overlooked it? Also in this photo, for those of you that might be listening, right? So it looks like a parent holding a child and the child is making eye contact. And you're so right. Like I feel a connection with this young child and just that simple change, like you said, will make all the difference. So it's really alarming to me that we take this for granted. Yeah, and you can see that child, you know, on the outside of an envelope looking at you tightly cropped, right? Right. Yeah, it's a really interesting concept and I agree with you. Claire has been on our show before and I do like this idea of starting with the images and then working the story around that because I think it changes the way you communicate. Yeah, and if you go to those best practice websites like Care or Save or the ASPCA, those eyes are gonna follow you all around social media and all around the internet with those retargeting ads. So if you need an example, go there and take a look at what they're doing. I love that. I love that. Okay, let's go to tip number two and you advise us to get up close and personal. Yeah, absolutely. You know, at nonprofits, we are used to taking group photos, a whole bunch of people, a really large family, for example, or lots of dignitaries who are there, an entire family photo because it feels good to us as a nonprofit that we've served an entire family of people or entire group of people, but that's not what the donor is looking for. The donor is looking to make a personal connection. Fundraising is a one-to-one marketing art and you need to be one-to-one whenever you can. I think photos that have as many as three people in them, you just can't, you don't know where to focus. You need to be able to focus on one person. So this photo, you certainly see those penetrating eyes. It reminds me very much of the famous National Geographic photo of the Afghan woman with those arresting eyes and that was quite a close photo. Most of the photos you should be taking for fundraising are really shoulders up. You don't need those full body shots and you really don't need a full body shot with the organization logo behind them. That's another shot that we love to take at nonprofits because your direct mail person is just gonna crop that out. You're right. Yeah, because I've heard lately, like, do you have at your organization a step and repeat or a photo wall or someplace, where we can capture logos and sponsors and maybe even our vision and our values behind it, but really having that shoulder up, as you just said. Wow, that to me, it's doable. The one I think about Laura and Julia, you've been in production so much of your life. I don't think that nonprofits really invest the time and certainly the money into these photography assets. So having this conversation is so important to say, these photos are important and how you use them can make the difference. Yeah, and there is no cost to stepping three steps toward your subject and taking the photo. And we sometimes don't wanna do that because we think we're getting up into people's business. You certainly could do it with a zoom lens. You don't wanna do it with a digital zoom lens, but yeah, get a little closer. Another thing to keep in mind. So we had talked a little bit about brand names behind you. Might be fine for a staff photo. It's not a fundraising photo and it creates a particular problem called mergers. Have you ever seen a photo where a plant is coming out of somebody's head? Yes. Or a telephone pole is running through it. That's a merger. You generally want to avoid those. Yeah. The other thing with this photo, it's not ideal because it's looking down on the little girl. I think a more equitable angle on this would be to look at her straight on as opposed to slightly looking down. So that's one way that I find took this photo again, I would improve upon it. So that camera angle you're saying also makes a difference. So step close, get a up close and personal photo, but really look at where you are positioned because you're right. If we're taking photos of youth and we are a taller person, we need to get down to that eye level, as you just said. Is that what I'm understanding? Yeah, you really want to honor your subject and bring them as much dignity as possible. You still need to establish need and we can talk about that. But taking a photo from above shows that you're superior. Taking a photo straight on with them is neither inferior or superior. If you take a photo up, no one likes to be taken like this. Especially if you're getting older like me. But that can make a person look more dignified if you're slightly down. Interesting. So that's something to think about. Yeah, I love that. I think that equitable camera angle is a fascinating concept. I really do and I love, love, love that you brought this up. Okay, talking about tip number three, look for good light. Oh my God, this makes me crazy. I see this so often. Talk to us about this. Well, you know, photography literally means light writing. You're telling a story with light. So you've got to have good light. This is a classic photo that is taken every day at nonprofits. And can you tell me what the three light sources in this photo are? Yeah. Take a look. What do you see? Yeah, so for me, the first thing I see obviously is this like chandelier that I don't know if it's on the wall like a big chandelier sconce. And then I'm assuming, right? It also has overhead lighting. Yeah, that terrible overhead lighting that makes no one look good. Right? And then they're standing in front of some very, very large plate glass windows. Yeah, so why do you think this photo was taken? How does something like this happen? Everybody knows they can clearly see it. How did this photo get taken? Well, for me, I see it all the time when I facilitate board meetings and retreats where they're like, everyone's here, let's get a photo. Yeah, and we don't want to inconvenience the group, right? So we're just snapping a quick photo. We're actually thinking about using this photo in the future. Now, obviously this isn't a fundraising photo. This is a photo you might take for general communications or an annual report. So on short notice, the way to fix this photo is simply to turn the group around. And get the dominant light, which is the light from the windows shining on them. It certainly wouldn't be ideal because if folks on either end would have light on them and the people in the middle wouldn't. Yeah, the best thing they could actually do is say, hey, this photo is important and we're gonna take you outside where there's plenty of light. Right. Even better if it was in the morning or in the late afternoon when you get that beautiful golden hour light that makes everyone look beautiful versus the midday light, which cast shadows on people. But if you do have to take a photo in midday light, you might wanna find a place that's slightly shady, but you wanna look for shade that is uniform. You don't wanna have that dappled light where a tree is kind of filtering these little dots of light on people. So really think about the ink in your pen when you're light writing. I love that. It makes me think a little bit about that merger, as you said, where if we're standing in a shaded area and some people have the sunray cast on them, other people have a big shadow on them. And it's really hard to balance that. I also know, Laura, there are so many amazing platforms out there that even those that aren't publicist and editors, there's things that we can do to alter photos, right? We can remove backgrounds, we can put filters on it. How much of that are you recommending that we do to alter the light setting? Well, I think, yes, you can fix things in post, as we used to say in the TV business. And those tools are becoming amazingly complex where those tools are now even available on your phone to do those kinds of changes. And you can take really great photos with your phone if you are taking photos that are large enough. And we should talk about that. But in terms of light, do you really want to someone in your nonprofit to have to spend minutes or hours trying to fix a photo when you could take a photo right with the correct amount of light up front? I tend to try to do it right up front with my camera. And if I need to fix it in post, I certainly will. It's important also to do that when you're talking about people with different conflections. I don't know how often I see photos where people who have a complexion like mine look fine in the photo, and then a person of color does not. It's really an equity issue to think about the light in advance and how you're going to portray people. Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that because that has always been a struggle as well. And so to bring that complexion to the forefront as well. So very interesting. So for those of you that have joined us, Laura is sharing five of these tips. And we're on tip three, moving into tip four, which Laura, I cannot wait to hear. It's about to choose an emotion. And you have two, or we have two photos here, both dogs, but one looks really happy almost as if it's smiling. And the other one looks like it came from a Sarah McLaughlin commercial. Yeah, absolutely. And both of these photos, like the photo of the child, are taken close to ground level. It's not the photo of the dog looking up at you. I should mention that too. It works with pets. Fundraising is an emotional conversation from one person to another person. So yes, you need to be looking for emotion. There is some research that suggests that sad photos actually make more money than happy photos in a fundraising appeal. But I think it's, nonprofits had to think about more than just the money. You also have to think about your brand and your brand reputation. You've got to think about how you're portraying the beneficiaries of your programs. The only way to know for sure what's the right answer is to test, of course. So if you took 10% of your list and you showed a sad photo versus a happy photo, you would at least have some directional information. It may not be statistically valid about what your donors prefer. There is some research that suggests that he said, so you mentioned Sarah McLaughlin. So why do those photos always show a sad dog or a sad cat? It's because most of those commercials are to an acquisition audience, people who do not know them very well and sad photos show need or a neutral photo shows need. And so they're trying to really get people to acquire those donors. However, if you have donors who are really engaged with you and you're doing a great job of asking people to give, reporting impact back to them and thanking them for their donation, they may wanna see that their steady donations to you are making a difference in people's lives. And they may want to see that joyful photo. That impact that they're invested in, they've been following this journey and to see how that is positively making a difference. I love that. Yeah. Early in my career, and this is a horrible phrase, but we used to use this phrase, old white man eating out of a garbage can. And that was like the trifecta of an appeal photograph. If you could find a white, a man, somebody that the potential donor could be like, oh my God, that could be somebody from my family. Right. And that was like the gold standard of how you moved through to communicate the need. And then you're absolutely right. Once we would find that donor who was engaged to show hopeful solution oriented images, like a happy family, a man working, things of that nature to show that all was not lost. Because you get compassion fatigue with your donors and these images very quickly, I think. And we don't talk about that enough. Yeah. You also may be referencing, I thought you were gonna reference the term poverty porn. I worked in the international, Yeah. I mean, I worked in the international development field and the classic sort of poverty porn photograph that does not show a person who is dignified. It goes beyond simple need and goes to actually really objectifying the person. Yes. Is the Ethiopian baby with flies on it? There are lots of folks in Ethiopia who do not look like that. And it's not an accurate representation. However, you also do need to show need and when in doubt for folks who do not mail four, six, eight, 12 times a year to their donors with those asks, I counsel people to choose a neutral expression on somebody's face. Okay. There's a big difference between, if someone is showing a neutral expression or a slightly grumpy expression, you are not objectifying them, but it does show need in an instantaneous way to people that a smiling photograph does not. So when in doubt, again, if you're not truly engaged with your donors, if you're trying to reach more of an acquisition audience, neutral to sad is probably the way to go. Yeah. So this takes us- You'll know it when it's poverty porn. Can you see? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's pretty obvious. Well, I feel like this takes us into the fifth tip for you here, Laura. And again, this is a great tip for choosing the best appeal photos. And number five, you have use real photos when possible. Cause I'm thinking back to tip four, right? We're going to search the web. We're going to find something that fits that, you know, opportunity and that's the image that we're going to pick. But no, a last number five is to use a real photo. Talk to us about this. Well, anyone who manages the social media account knows that the algorithms of Google and Facebook actually downgrade your posts if you're using stock photography versus real photography or in, you know, to put it in positive terms, they know when it's a real photo and they've reward you for that. Right. So there are some nonprofits that have to use stock photography because of the sensitivity of what they're doing. Our clients who work in women's or family shelters, they have very valid reasons, particularly while the case is still going on for not using real photos. But donors like the algorithms can tell. So this is clearly a stock photo of a baby. Tell me why you know it's a stock photo. Well, I'm from the age where, you know, it was always a Gerber baby and a Gerber baby looks so perfect. It's adorable, you know, everybody wants to hold the Gerber baby. So to me, that's, I see really that kind of image when I see this image of this young infant on its hands and knees. It does have eye contact, you know? Yeah. But that's what I see. What about you, Julia? I think it's just too perfect. I think it's very symmetrical. It's well lit and it doesn't seem to have any context to what the topic is. So for example, if it was a child, maybe in a park and you were working with a park theme or a zoo or it just is, it looks like it's in someone's home. Right. Yeah. Have you ever seen a baby look this clean? An actual baby? No. I bet your babies are not this clean. Two, if you have a baby, your floors are not this clean. My God, that's so weird. That's true. Both of those are very true. Yeah. That's so funny. Stock photography also portrays this sort of perfect upper middle-class homes. White cabinets, these perfect sort of wood floors, this sort of crate and barrel furniture. My home does not look like this. I often have to look at food bank photos because we didn't capture the photos when people were in the food bank or go to their homes to see them actually cooking the food. And it's really hard to find a kitchen photo or people eating that does not look fake. Yes. Oh, I can really appreciate that. You're right. Yeah, and I would have never thought of that either because there's so many missions supporting children and just to think of, okay, how do we imperfectly yet perfectly represent that child? It's so important. You have definitely opened my eyes and I have worked with you, Laura, for several years. But this is even more so made me aware of the photos we choose. Absolutely. Yeah, I think it's really important. And again, I really encourage people to take good photos right with light in a way that's meaningful and makes an emotional connection between the donor and the person that they're helping. And I think there's a thing that is, there's so many ways to engage volunteers but I think that it's a really cool thing to put out a call for photography to say, maybe a photography class or a photography club or somebody who likes photography, how do we get them engaged in telling those visual stories? Understanding that depending on what our sector is of service that we're gonna have some issues that we need to maintain, especially if we're working with children under the age of 18, minors under the age of 21, anybody that is in a judicial situation like domestic abuse or crime, I mean, there are things that we can't just get images of and put them out there. We have to be thoughtful and have releases and things of that nature. Yeah, and if your organization does not have a media release, I recently put a link on my Facebook page at a Bayhouse Solutions in order to, so people could actually download it and modify it on their own. So get a media release that protects you legally. And then all you have to worry about is all the ethical and equity questions of photographs. But you make a good point. Why not partner with a photography class that is learning about ethics here in Phoenix? We have the Cronkite School. They have photojournalists who are in training who would probably love to come and take photos. And you have those community colleges around the country and they've got those photo classes. So if it's possible, get those in people involved, but make sure that they are taking large photos. For print, you need 300 dots per inch or more accurately, 300 pixels per inch. You don't need these little tiny photos that you have on Facebook. Right, thank you for bringing that up because that is a really big problem for people in production to use images that they might look good on screen but they're not going to translate into the different formats that we often need them to be. This has been just a great conversation. There's so many things to think about. And you know, telling the story and communicating, we can work so hard, spend so much money, but at the end of the day, all that work can go away, it seems to me, Laura, if we don't have these strong images. We have a viewer that came in just a little late and wanted to ask you, who were some of these model nonprofits that you were talking about where we should be looking at their work because they do such a good job? You know, I always look at powerhouse nonprofits like Save the Children, care.org, ASPCA, and you will see they use very, even though they're working in slightly different fields, they are using the same kind of photography. Yeah. I like Shardy Water and the World Food Programs, Share the Meal, I think they do great work as well. Share the Meal that is a part of the World Food Program has moved to what you said, those really hopeful images. And it's remarkable that they have put that flag in the sand and that's what they're going with. Yep, it's a lot more complex it's a lot more complex than just making money. You need to think about your brand, but you also need to think about the dignity of the person that you're upholding. Yeah. You know, we've talked a lot, Julia, throughout the last three years, we've really moved into ethical storytelling. And I feel like the photography, right, needs to really mirror that same ethical storytelling. And that's what I hear often when it comes to this, Laura, especially through your five tips today. So thank you so very much for saying yes, bringing this to the forefront. I absolutely love what Abayha Solutions is doing, both you and Brianna, amazing women doing amazing work for so many organizations across the nation. So for those of you watching and listening, Laura Engels, CEO at Abayha Solutions, check them out. That is abayhaabeja-solutions.com. And again, tell us, tell us what you're here to do. Take the what, take the sting out of something. It can be really challenging for people to do all the story sourcing, writing, data, print production, design for their direct mail appeals. So that's what we do. We do it end to end just so that we can free nonprofits up for the things that might make even a bigger difference like calling that major donor. Yeah. I love it. We need all the help we can get. Laura Engels, CEO of Abayha Solutions. Again, I'm Julia Patrick. I've been joined today by the nonprofit nerd herself, Jared Ransom, who is going to be in New Orleans at the AFP Icon Conference, will be broadcasting from the Boomerang booth. So if you are on the showroom floor, stop by, introduce yourself. Mike Geiger, CEO of Association of Fundraising Professionals will actually be kicking off the whole thing with us there. So join us there and we'll get to get you maybe on air and at least get you engaged in how the nonprofit show gets made. And the nonprofit show does get made every day, now into our fourth year with our presenting sponsors, such as Boomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller, nonprofit thought leader, National University's fundraising academy, staffing boutique, nonprofit nerd, and nonprofit tech talk. These are the folks that are with us day in and day out, making this show come on air every day. It's kind of like a miracle, isn't it, Jared? It is, I know, and Laura, again, you've been a huge part of the success and a part of the journey, so thanks to all of you. It's been amazing. Hey, everybody, as we end every episode, we wanna remind everyone to stay well, so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow. Laura, thank you so much. My pleasure, thank you. Everyone, take some great photographs. I'm looking forward to seeing your appeals in the fall and your end.