 secure than ever with some demanding easier access to guns. We'll take a closer look at whether that's a real solution. And with the normalization of ties between Israel and Sudan finally moving forward, Sudanese refugees in Israel are feeling a little uneasy about their future. We'll explain why. Not since the days leading up to the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin has any issues seemingly so divided Israel politically and ideologically as the governments proposed judicial reforms, which critics say endangers the country's democratic foundations. Underscoring that, police detained a highly decorated ex-combat pilot for a tweet that appeared to justify the assassination of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Senior correspondent Owen Altman reports on growing concerns that legitimate protests could tip over into incitement and even violence. Running a mass movement has a central contradiction. A clear single message is important. So is mass participation. It is hard to have both a single voice and a lot of them. So it is with the protest movement against Israel's proposed judicial overhaul, gathered here again Saturday night with concern from both professionals and politicians that incitement has crossed the line. Yesterday we saw an explicit threat to murder an Israeli prime minister. That threat is a direct result of the irresponsible incitement getting backing, sometimes in explicit statements from the opposition. The reference of Facebook posts by retired Air Force officers Zeev Raz that raised the level of incitement. If in my line someone will rule either Israeli or foreign and will lead it in an undemocratic way, it is our obligation to kill him. Police are now investigating Raz who has erased the post and distanced himself from it, while other cases have also arisen in recent weeks, some from the right and others also from the left. People are ready to fight with weapons, so everyone's in shock. How do you say such a thing? I say if we need to get to that and they drag me there, that's what I'll do. The speaker, lawyer David Chodak, tweeted Saturday he did not intend that violence be used against this judicial overhaul. Opposition leader Yair Lapid, too, has told protesters not to cross the line into incitement. The concern is that the task is not easy. Controlling hundreds of thousands of protesters, enraged from their perspective at what they see as a high stakes fight over democracy itself. And it only takes one. Now of course not all the discussion and debate on the judicial reforms issue has been partisan or extreme. There's certainly more well informed and intention discourse on the issue, including between thoughtful Zionist thinkers who have agreed in many other areas. Well, joining us now are two of them. Daniel Gordis, co-pendent open letter in the Times of Israel with fellow office Mattie Friedman and Jesse Klein-Halevi arguing, quote, the changes of foot will have dire consequences for the solidarity of Israel's society and for its economic miracle. This crisis is unique and uniquely heartbreaking because it comes from within. None of us is an alarmist, but this is a moment for alarm. And you might say now on the other hand, Professor Gil Troy wrote for the tablet media site, a piece titled Israeli democracy is fine. Thanks for asking, in which he says, quote, the timing of this burst of anxiety about Israeli democracy is particularly unfortunate, caricaturing the Israeli government as worse than it is and Israeli democracy as more fragile than it is is a gift to the Israel first is in the media, the professoriate Congress and the State Department and the rabbinette, many of whom feel vindicated by the impression that Israel is in crisis. Well, joining us now are the authors. Daniel Gordis, correct English distinguished fellow at Shalem College, but he joins us this evening from Florida and Professor Gil Troy, presidential historian and distinguished scholar of North American history and McGill University, but he speaks to us from Jerusalem. And Gil, I'm going to start with you without getting into the details of the judicial reform. Is this a uniquely heartbreaking crisis for Israel and a moment for alarm? First of all, my good friend, Dan Gordis, and I agree on so much more than we disagree. And I have written open letters to Bibi Netanyahu in the Jerusalem Post saying, you've unleashed these demons and you as the prime minister have to control things. But at the same time, in looking at Israeli democracy and frankly, as an American historian comparing it to American democracy, at this moment, I also felt that we should look at some of the underlying strengths that Israeli democracy has. Right now, Israelis are much more in conversation with one another. They show up at weddings to dance with one another. They have a sense, unfortunately, of a common enemy. And we have to understand that you judge your democracy in many different ways. And in the article that I wrote in tablet, I actually used the analysis of Alexis de Tocqueville, the 19th century French philosopher, who said, look at not Andrew Jackson, who was President of the United States at the time and was quite brutal. Don't look necessarily at the corruption in the elections of America in the 19th century, but look at what he called the habits of the heart. And I call them the songs of the Israeli street, what's going on from day to day. And as much as I am worried about certain things and as much as I have disagreements both with the nature of many of the reforms and the pace of many of the reforms, I also felt it was important to put some balance on it and say there still is a lot of resilience in the society. There still is a lot of strength in the society. There still is a lot of love in the society. I'm not giving up. Well, you're not giving up, but you sound like I'm going to ask you if there's cause for alarm. But I'm going to ask Daniel Gordis, is it correct that some of the protesters or the protesters in general law quote, correct the cheering the Israeli government as worse that it is and Israeli democracy is more fragile than it is? The answer to that question is yes, that is true. And I will begin the way the guilt began. We are good friends and we agree on a lot more than we disagree about. And I think that our disagreement in this particular week, when ironically, I believe that his letter in tablet and my column with Matthew Friedman and Yossi Klein-Elevi in Times of Israel came out when I think exactly the same day. I think our disagreement is really about the message that needs to be heard in America. And guilt is right. It is incorrect to portray Israeli democracy as either falling apart or having fallen apart. And I think quite frankly, what the protests against these proposed reforms and again, here I agree with guilt, the issue is not whether or not judicial reform is needed. Judicial reform is needed. The question is how much judicial reform and at what pace and can a national conversation be engendered? And we wanted, my co-writers and I wanted to make it clear, especially to the lay leadership of many important American Jewish organizations, that to disagree with Debe Netanyahu about the substance or the pace of these reforms is not to be disloyal to Israel. We feel that there are many people, especially in the United States, who feel that if you're loyal to Israel, you're loyal to Beebe. This is not about hating Beebe. This is not about dissing Beebe. This is simply about saying that Israel's democracy is more important than any particular leader. And we wanted to release them from the sense that if you're going to be in any way disagreeing with Beebe, you've somehow become disloyal. I understand that, but you did in that letter encourage them to speak up. And that raises the question, guilt do, does, for example, the American Jewish leadership have a say in what many Israelis would say is in it would call more an eternal Israeli matter. Look, as a Zionist, I believe that Israel is the national treasure of the Jewish people. And as a Zionist, as someone who spends a lot of time as and, and, and Monty and Yossi Klein, I'll ever do trying to strengthen the ties. I'd be the last one to say no, we don't want to hear from you. I actually think we need to learn how to listen to one another better. I think Israelis can learn a lot from Americans about the power of constitutionalism about individual civil liberty. I also think American Jews, not just Americans can learn a lot from Israelis about the power of tradition, the power of community, the power of patriotism, the power of usness. So yes, we need a healthy dialogue. I think we also have to be careful that unfortunately we're swimming in a poison sea when we talk about the American campus today, the American media today, and increasingly the American professoriates today. And so I'm cautious about sending these alarms, especially if I don't believe them. I, as I said, I have my worries about this government. I have my worries about this particular judicial reform package. I agree that certain judicial reform. And if you see how the, the, the, the conversation. Guiltroy, Guiltroy, I'm sorry, Danny, go to stay with us. We're going to a break. We'll pick this up when we come back. Stay with us. The organism that pulsates through millennia. Touch it. Listen to it. Smell it. Taste it. Experience the Holy Land like never before. Holy Land uncovered every Sunday only on I-24 News. Sometimes it's tough to get past all the noise and get to the heart of the story. Even tougher to make sense of it all. 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Welcome back to the rundown, and we're focusing on the proposed additional forms by the Netanyahu government and some of the statements, recent statements, that seemed to cross the line into incitement, coming from both sides of this debate. Here is President Isaac Herzog speaking out on this just today, just hours ago. When I see that the prime minister is being threatened with murder, I say to myself, we don't understand that the gurney will fall in one. It's a terrible thing that must be removed in any way. It is forbidden to use such phrases in the discussion at all. This discussion is heating up to dangerous places, and I call from here to everyone who is engaged in the debate. Stop for a moment and take a breath. Stop the whole process for a moment. Take a deep breath. Allow negotiations, because there is a huge majority of the people who would like negotiations. And still with us is Daniel Gortis, correct, distinguished fellow at Shalem College, and Professor Gil Troy, presidential historian, distinguished scholar of North American history at McGill University. Daniel and Gil, I'm sure we both agree about incitement, any kind of statement like that being out of bounds. But Daniel, what do you make of Gil's point, his concerns, that some of the criticism that the protesters are saying, and some of it legitimate, though, could be used by what he called the Bash Israel firsters, co-cotery, or have you want to say it, in, for example, in North American elsewhere? He's absolutely right. That's a danger. There was no clear decision. I mean, I think there was no clear step here. That was either the right step or the wrong step. We understood that we were possibly giving some additional ammunition. Not that they really need it. They have plenty anyway to those people who aren't Israel Bashers. But our message was directed at a different group. Our message was directed at those people who love Israel, those people who have spent decades and lifetimes defending Israel. To say to them, if you are uncomfortable with the makeup of this government or you are uncomfortable with the rapidity of the proposed moving forward on these judicial reforms, you do not become a less committed Zionist. You do not become a less legitimate supporter of Israel because you, through whatever means you have, whatever American Jewish organization you are a leader in, because you want people whispering to the government at the right moments, pull back a bit on the throttle and let this thing slow down. That's exactly what President Herzog was saying in the clip that you just showed before. Gil's right. People could use this as ammunition, but we decided nonetheless to make the claim to these long-standing life-long defenders of Israel, we felt they needed to understand that we Israelis would hear their backing away from this particular administration, not as an abandonment of Israel, but as a call for carefulness. Right. Gil, you can respond to that, but I just want to get your view on President Herzog saying, slow it down. Let's take a break. The Justice Minister Yareev Levine just this evening has said, no, we're moving full steam ahead. Should this process be halted, at least temporarily for now? Absolutely. I think the demons have been unleashed. I think that President Herzog is the most important voice in Israel today. I think he's absolutely right. The latest poll from the Israel Democracy Institute shows that 64% of Israelis want a dialogue, want a process, want some compromise, don't want all this shrieking. I think we're allowing what I call the gunetics of the far right and the far left to run the conversation, which we see is happening all over the West, thanks to social media, thanks to these protests, and what we need to do is slow down. And especially because we're not talking about a policy here or there, we're talking about constitutional change. We're talking about the constitutive nature of Israeli democracy. And by the way, what I would say to the right is take a few victories on a few smaller things, which are policy matters, go use your 64 vote coalition and shove it down everybody's throat because you won. But on bigger issues, when it comes to fundamental rights, when it comes to the fundamental structures of the society, the balance between Knesset and court, slow it down. All you can do is gain more momentum. All you can do is actually gain a little bit of credibility. Maybe you'll have to compromise a little bit, but look what you're doing in the society. Look how you're weakening us vis-a-vis Iran, vis-a-vis Palestinians, vis-a-vis the haters. You, as nationalists, as quote unquote conservatives, have to take care of the nation and have to conserve the institutions. You're not doing that. You're failing that. Right, Gil. I don't want you to sound, you sound a little alarmist there. So I'm gonna have to ask you. I just sound passionate. But Daniel Gortis, if this government does not slow down at all, which is what the justice minister said today, I have to go back to you with this cause for alarm for the future of Israeli democracy. Look, the question of whether the substance of these reforms and why they go too far is a very, very complicated question, which we're not gonna be able to address in any meaningful way in the small number of minutes that we have. But simply to say that to do away with the independence of the legal advisors to the various ministries, to the extent that the proposed reforms suggest that they should, would be very, very problematic. To get rid of judicial review almost entirely would be exceedingly problematic. Many of the rights that Americans take for granted as being natural, because they're in the Bill of Rights, are not encoded anywhere in Israeli law, even in the 1992 basic law on human dignity. It does not guarantee equality and a whole set of other issues which are critically important. The court has protected those rights by using judicial review. Some mechanism for protecting judicial review while reining in what many people rightly correctly see as the overreach of the court over a very long period of time simply is necessary. And I'll just point out what Gil said. I'm actually gonna agree with what Gil said in his piece here. Israeli democracy actually is very healthy. And if there is anything that has been unleashed by this several now, several weeks or a month and a half of protest and so forth, it is a majority of Israelis calling for dialogue. I mean, when was the last time any of us heard that? Well, I'm not sure it's a majority gentleman, but more than anything, let us talk to each other. That's a hugely positive development that the government should capitalize on. Okay, I'm not 100% sure it's a majority, but at least this evening we did have a dialogue. Professor Gil Choi, Daniel Gortis, thank you for that. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. And moving to security, a weekend of clashes between Israeli forces and Palestinians as the IDF continued its ongoing operation against terror groups. With the violence spreading to what is usually the calmest city in the West Bank, Jericho. Defense correspondent Jonathan Regiff has the story. It was another violent weekend in what seems to be a cycle of violence with no end in sight. This time, the city considered to be the most quiet in the West Bank was the focus. I praised the Israeli security agency and the IDF for their operation in Jericho. During that operation, terrorists who were involved in terror actions against Israelis were caught. I'm the new Chelano. The action in Jericho on Saturday morning was followed by more arrest operations throughout the West Bank late Saturday night, but this was not the only active arena. On Saturday evening, explosion sounded on the Gaza border just three days after rockets were fired from the strip. This time Israel intercepted a small aircraft still in the skies of Gaza before it crossed into Israel. The government also addressing the situation along the Gaza border by announcing the establishment of a new community in the area. By establishing this new community, we give evidence to the resilience of the Gaza border region and the state of Israel despite the threats and the rockets being fired. New flashpoint may be awaiting soon as the government moves forward with a plan to build a new Jewish neighborhood in East Jerusalem as a response to the terror attack in Nevea Kov the previous weekend, which killed seven Israelis. Meanwhile, in negotiations with Egypt, the Islamic jihad is threatening that the Israeli actions in the West Bank will lead to an imminent escalation as it seems that escalation is already here. And of rising concerns within Israel over violent crime, criminal crime, and one in particular has stirred outrage against Israel these past few days. Friday's breaking and rape of a woman in the central city of Gdera while her three young children were also home. Israel police say they now have a suspect in custody, a 20-year-old from a nearby Bedouin village. Now, the Gdera rape has spurred cause from within and without the government to ease Israel's strict gun laws and allow many more citizens access to weapons. Ariel Levin Waldman looks at whether that and other self-defense measures can provide Israelis with the added security they're seeking. This is the nightmare scenario, a terror attack, an active shooter, and no help in sight. Dozens of Israelis were murdered in these exact incidents over the past year, including just last week in Jerusalem. We need to understand where we live. This is Israel. You must always be alert. That's what you get when we live here. That's just the war we fight. For millions of Israelis who must confront the possibility, they have to answer another question. How do I survive? It's small, it's compact, it's easy to conceal. If I put it under my shirt, no one sees it, and the moment something happens, well, it's here. It's a Sig Sawyer, 365X. Some are bigger, some smaller. It holds 12 rounds. Yosef is one of just over 140,000 Israeli civilians who has a government-issued firearms permit. For people like him, there is no question of what the response should be. I am armed so I can have a sense of security for myself and my family. They are less able to protect themselves. That's the main reason. But if I am on the streets and an attack happens, I can respond immediately. I won't have to wait for security forces to arrive. But the criteria for getting one of those permits are incredibly strict. What about more than 9 million Israelis who find themselves defenseless when terror strikes? We won't retreat. We're not going anywhere. The only solution is to be strong and to know how to respond properly. The best place to be is somewhere else when terror happens, and noticing suspicious people or objects can be the difference between survivor and victim. But what happens when it's too late to run? If you're far away, just call security. You aren't expected to get closer or get in the thick of things. If you're not trained, you're not going to neutralize the terrorists. Not everyone is trained for that. Violence is Vitaliy's specialty. What he teaches in combat classes is that every act of resistance can make a difference. If you're in the middle of it and maybe someone's been shot or stabbed, it's not certain that person will just die immediately. That person still has an instinct and a reflex to fight back quickly. Someone doesn't need to be trained to get a punch in or a jam a finger in an eye or even just bite an attacker. That can help you get away. In this scenario, everything becomes a weapon. A chair becomes a striking tool. Anything in arms reach a way to resist and to buy vital seconds until help can arrive. If you can't run, that sort of improvisation is the best defense against an array of attacks. But the majority of citizens are not combat trained. What are their options? As many people, of course, only responsible people that know what they're doing carry weapons, it'll stop attacks. As the government molds over Israel's firearms policy, are they listening? And joining us in studio, our defense correspondent, Jonathan Regev. And Jonathan, more guns in more hands. Is that an answer to what seems to be rising violence, terrorist and criminal in Israel? I'm not sure. You grew up in America, Kalev. I did. Is the American example working? I think not. We just heard the men say guns in the hands of responsible people. So yes, but who's to say who are responsible people? First, I think that in Israel, we have an abundance of guns in the streets. First, there are the people with licenses. Second, security forces and soldiers. There are many soldiers with machine guns in the streets. And I think, as was mentioned here, usually, this is the answer. Usually, terror attacks are stopped by the many citizens who carry weapons by soldiers who happen to be by all this before police forces even arrive. There's a certain question as to how far can you go? Yes, abundance and more weapons in the streets can prevent the next terror act that is correct. Well, criminal violent break-in is another thing. Weapons in the homes, though. Absolutely. And yet, when is it too much? Can everybody fire, can everybody fire a terrorist and achieve the decision, the result that we want? Not exactly sure. You have to be trained. You have to know exactly how to use it. So it's a very delicate balance, I think, and this is only my own opinion, that Israel is in quite a good place. And yes, we're seeing it in the many terror attacks that are stopped by armed civilians way before security forces even come. All this was raised because of the attack in Ivey Akov just a little over a week ago when there were no armed citizens around. And that is why the...