 It's not like we've been a life or death situation where I'm choosing you between a chicken. We're choosing a chicken's life over a chicken sandwich. Firstly, why I'm now, it's more like apathy. I don't know if you eat pigs. Yeah, I eat pigs. They're like little children in their minds, you know? Yeah. They scream, scream like terrified, terrified children. I feel like I don't want to eat any more pigs, if I'm honest. That was very harrowing. Alright, so we're back out here in Leicester Square in London. This is like my old stomping grounds. I've been here many times before. We're out the front of Burger King here. That Burger King went 100% vegan for a month, which was amazing, but it's back to killing a bunch of animals. So we're going to talk to people about this sign here. It says, if you're not vegan, you support animal abuse. Prove me wrong. Let's see if the public can prove me wrong. There's a lot of people walking through. Now we wait. Just by having the sign out, people see the message anyway, so... You're up, mate. Come on. You can prove me wrong. I don't need to. I wonder if any of my proper trolls would ever sit down properly, and I don't think so. Not like this. You want to sit down, mate? Come on. Don't be shy. This is the position I'm arguing. If you're not vegan, you support animal abuse. It's cool. We're going to just have a chat. I'm polite. You can both come, if you want. You can both come. What are you going to eat, though? Steak. You're going to go eat steak. Chicken wings? Eat a dead animal? So they're actually going to go support some animal abuse right now into the steakhouse there, and then they're going to come, they say. The type that would probably be really courageous in the comment section, but when it comes to sitting down, not so much. Look at all these people. Wow. Like, a lot of people do look at the sign and react. So if I don't succeed this sign, like, there's our mates there in the steakhouse. What do you order, mate? You're having a salad? Oh, that's good. So a vegan salad? Well, I look forward to it. If you want to come and have a chat, I look forward to it because you seem pretty smart, actually, you do. I like the opposition. Why don't you have a think, right? Why don't you write some notes down? Bring the notes over. OK, I've heard a lot of different arguments, actually. And we can talk about whether or not they justify what happens to animals, but, yeah. They seem like good kids, interested. Anyone want to sit down? Do you want to sit down? I don't think I can prove you wrong. Do you want to talk about it anyway? Yeah, OK. What's your name, mate? I'm Paddy. Here you go, Paddy. You can have this. Oh, thanks, man. I'd like to give my guest the mic now. All right, what's your name? Joey. Good to meet you, mate. So are you a vegan? I am not, no. And what did you think about the sign when you first read it? Remind me what the sign says. It says if you're not vegan, you support animal abuse. Right. Prove me wrong. OK. I don't think I can prove you wrong, because I agree with the statement. Why? Why do you agree with it? If we take the thought process that all life should be valued the same or sentient life, and you imagine a cow or a pig or a chicken being in the same thought as a person, it wouldn't be very nice if, you know, we chop people up and cut them and ate them, you know? Yeah. Is that kind of like the idea behind... Yeah, it's about consistency. Yeah. It's kind of a life or death situation where I'm choosing you between the chickens. We're choosing a chicken's life over a chicken sandwich. Right. You know what I mean? We can eat something else. Right, you don't need to eat chicken. Yeah. People did things before they ate chicken. Yeah. Of course, we've got all these wide range of foods we can eat. It's not like we need to do this to survive, is what I'm saying. Yeah. So we're doing it for some other reason. And I don't think that reason justifies what we do to animals. Right. All sentient beings don't have to be equal in every way. Right. But there's something about them all that matters morally and that's their experience. You know what I mean? Yeah. So you might get two human beings and one has maybe a lesser experience because of something that happened to them in their brain to develop. You know, they might have a child, might not have as deeper experience as you do because you're an adult and you can really think deeply about the universe and the world right now. But as a four-year-old you probably couldn't. Yeah. But that doesn't mean you deserve different rights. No, of course not. That four-year-old deserves a right to treat it as an object, to treat it as property, enslaved and killed for a sandwich. You know what I mean? Yeah. So the same way, like, think of chickens. Yeah. Chickens are like pigs and they're like the mentality of, say, a three or four-year-old. You know? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So you agree with the sign you can't debunk it? So you would agree then that when you're not vegan you're doing something that you're morally against, maybe? Um, I would say, like, firstly, worry I'm now. It's more like apathy and I am trying to like eat less meat and so I've started cutting me out of my dinners. I'm going to start, you know, just a few days a week. Yeah. You know, I don't know how militant I'll get with it, you know, but, you know, if it... How stringent do you mean? Like, how strict? Yeah, yeah. Well, let's analyze that then. Yeah. So this is good. So now we're going to get somewhere here. So you believe in this reduction sort of thing? Yeah. So that would be like a good middle ground for you. You're not going to go completely vegan, but right now you think just pulling things out here and there. Yeah. And then eventually, you know, you get to a point where you don't have any meat products or animal products at all. Yeah. Yeah, I think that I think that probably worked for me because... So you're talking about reducing to the point of veganism. Yeah. Okay. So I agree with that. Do you ever see a carnage by, I think, Stephen Amstel? Yeah. Yeah. So I wrote an essay on that a few months ago. You wrote an essay on carnage? Yeah. I wrote an essay on carnage for my uni course. So if anyone doesn't know what carnage is, what is it like from a future point of view? 50 years in the future and they use that as kind of a narrative format to look on 20th, 21st century people eating meat. Yeah. And then it was like living with regret and they've got like generational trauma because of it. And they're like, what did we do? Why did we do this? Yeah. And it's also, it's funny. Yeah. And it's very entertaining, but the actual message of what he tried to say, one of the poignant lines in the film is his like surrogate upset if anyone was putting a bat. Like, you know, it just kind of makes sense when it's put in that format. So that's what, that's why I get what you're saying and I get, and I agree with you. I just, you know, I've had animal products in my life, you know, my parents never really thought much about it. So I thought, yeah, I'll start cutting down and eating less and, you know, see where that sort of lands you. Yeah, exactly. But that guy who was just here a second ago who said four months and he couldn't be happier. I'm vegan. You are? And one of my biggest regrets in life is not going to you. I know. You woke up brother. Yeah. I just don't understand that people can watch it and not be vegan. I feel like that that was a, that was a very big statement. So, I guess it's because like he's finally living consistent with his values. Yeah. For a lot of vegans that I know, they wish they did it sooner because of the guilt associated with continuing because sooner or later you're going to find some stuff out and it's going to make you really, really upset. Because for many years and I know some stuff that would keep you up and going, it's horrible. I've probably got some trauma from the things I've witnessed in the industries. That's what it is because you're going to find that stuff out and then you're going to go I wish I went vegan sooner because of how disgusting it is, how horrible it is. Because right now you're looking at it through like maybe a philosophical viewpoint. Oh yeah, this is morally wrong in this, but when I show you like what goes on, it's a lot different. Like, oh I believe it's different. Oh yeah, it's just going to make me it's just going to make me not want to Well, I mean, I don't know if you eat pigs. Yeah, I eat pigs. So they jack off wars and then they stick the semen in the females and then they become pregnant and they keep them these are called farrowing crates. These are completely legal in the UK. They get sauce from rubbing against these farrowing crates. It's incredibly horrible. They're in these prisons for about five to six weeks. The piglets that don't grow fast enough or that are a bit sick, but they're in the ground. It's called thumping. And this is very common. Go into any farrowing shed and this is what you'll see. So here's these piglets that have been thumped on the ground. They clip their teeth out and they slip their tails off so they don't bite each other in confinement. Yeah, this is called a gas chamber and you might think this just happens around the world not here, but this is the main way they kill pigs here. They go down this dungeon they're terrified of course because they're in this cage. Right. They go down into CO2 gas. And the gas is like what you find in your Pepsi or Coke burns them. They suffocate and burn their eyes and mouth and they try to escape and they smash their head against the bars. One of the most horrible ways to die I couldn't imagine anything worse than being lower down to a dungeon full of gas and try to escape in there. They're like little children in their minds, you know? Yeah. They scream. Scream like terrified, terrified children. There's one in Manchester you can hear them screaming all day. That's essentially pigs. Cows, it's the same. They stick their fists in the female's anus to hold the cervix to stick semen into them. When they had their calf they still their calves away and their maternal animals. It's been studied actually this trauma, calf, mother, bond separation. Yeah. They're in their stomach for nine months. Imagine your mum you're taken away from her. It's horrible to do that to a mammal. And this happens standard practice in the dairy industry. This is a calf slaughterhouse. So they can kill them for veal. Yeah, I do. I don't like veal. Yeah, but if you consume dairy the veal industry only exists because of the dairy industry. Oh, okay. This is a mother that's had her calf taken away constantly just for her milk. She'll be turned into a burger. I don't know how much more you want to watch of that. I mean, I'd prefer not to watch anymore ever if that's all right. I think that was about two and a half minutes. Yeah. Three minutes. That's just a glimpse into what happens, you know? Yeah. How do you feel now about your... I feel like I don't want to eat any more pigs if I'm honest. Yeah. The gas chamber and that? Yeah, the gas chamber. That was very harrowing. You can look up the data yourself as well. So you just say are pigs gas chambered in the UK? It's all there, man. Anything I say just cross-check it as well. You might say this is just vegan propaganda. They want you to... That's why I invite anyone to go and check out the data themselves. Check out the investigations themselves. Go into a factory and find yourself. You know what I mean? Chickens is the worst. Chickens, yeah, I've seen footage of chickens. Over 95% of them are factory-farmed indoors. Frankenstein bodies, they're only four weeks or something when they're killed, but they just grow from little chicks to really big in four weeks and they're still babies. You know, there's a little infant, little chicks. People are eating, they're just overgrown. And that's where most people are eating. Okay. What would you say for anyone just like the steps towards, you know, vegan, from, you know, a meat-eating perspective? Would you just say oh, just cut it all out as as fast as you can? See, for me, right, this is my philosophy. Right. There are different people with different strategies. Yeah. Right? Because some people believe that just going vegetarian first is a good idea. Take the meat out. Yeah. Then you've still got the dairy and eggs and then you take the dairy out then the eggs out or cheese out then the milk out. For me, it's like, it's all or nothing. Yeah. Because if I'm lingering around in that alcohol as a drink, you know, then I'm going to keep, it's really hard to cut off. But if you stop looking at animals as food and you start going, I'm actually against that. I'm going to cut this out. I'm going to actually go vegan. Right? That's a decision you've made. So, what I say to people instead is I offer them challenge 22. It's a vegan challenge. Okay. That will help guide you. So you do it for 22 days. But then what happens is you learn about what to eat. You start educating yourself. You do some things about what happens to animals. And when you don't have dead bodies in your mouth and you're not looking at animals as food, you start to like see things differently, actually. Start to see the information differently. In what way? If someone's eating meat, right, and I'm talking to them about animals, they're more likely to double down because they're defending what they're currently doing. Oh, okay. I see. But if you take the animal products away, you don't have anything to defend anymore. So you've got to be more open to the information that's logical phenomenon. And they've tested this, actually. Yeah. Yeah. Like giving people an animal message when they're eating like nuts compared to when they're eating the meat. Right. The people who are eating the nuts. People don't want to feel like guilty or the bad guy. Yeah. You don't try to justify it. So you don't have to worry about it. Certainly when you're a little kid, I didn't do it, Mum. It's still in us. Yeah. You know what I mean? So most people will try to see information. I want to know. Yeah. How do I do this? You are an outlier, actually. You think? Yeah. Just I've been an activist for a long time. Yeah. And you are an outlier. You are a very open, casual, not defensive, shall see information. That was bad. I don't want to eat pigs anymore. What do I do? Should I cut it out? Should I? Usually it's plants feel pain. Tomatoes are just as sentient as a pig. Vegans are this and that. A vegan was mean to me or animals don't feel pain or something like this. But more often than not, there's some justification or some rationale that people will use and I'll sit there back and forth for an hour. You know, I've done a little bit of research. You know, I see carnage stuff like that. You've had scenes planted before. Yeah. I like animals. I've always liked animals. I might get some chickens now, actually. I might just get a few chickens and a coop or something. Rescue them. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. From a factory farm. Yeah. Another thing, they're selling these chickens for money or they're a dog, like a dog breeder, right? Yeah. They've got this mother dog. They're selling off their animals and it's more like, I want to buy them for my own pleasure. Right. But when a sanctuary will rescue chickens from certain death and then they offer them like a home, it's different to like going out and buying a pet. Yeah. I mean, it's like a different situation. Okay. So supporting a chicken breeder would mean like in the egg industry, they take the females and go on a conveyor belt and they'll cull them. It'll be a blender. Yeah. It's probably a blender fully conscious or they gas them. So if you go to a chicken breeder, they probably got the hen from a parent breeder facility that, you know, cull the males off. Yeah. It's good to steer away from anyone selling animals. Okay. What I would do your first step is like a do it like a little vegan challenge. I did a vegetarian month once and that was that was all right. There was someone who said, yeah, you should probably take a supplement or something. Yeah. With B12, it can build up in you over time. You might be deficient in B12 right now. You don't know. That's fair. Because you haven't tested your blood. Right. So not everyone absorbs B12. To save confusion, it's good to get your blood done before you make a big diet change. I didn't. The only reason I say this is because people go vegan, then they blame every single deficiency they have on veganism and they never did blood work before that. Right. So if you're a B12 deficient, whether you've got high cholesterol now, and what people do is they go vegan, then they start getting their blood tests and they're freaking out and then they start going, oh, look at all this stuff. But you had nothing to compare it to. Yeah. But B12 builds up in you over time. A lot of people have B12 stores that can last for up to like, I think it's like five or six, seven years something. Really, okay. I always supplement B12. Okay. As a rule. Yeah. And if I'm not getting sun, it's off for sandwiches, you know what I mean? Yeah, okay. Yeah, because that's my personal choice, I think. The only reason I want people to take care of their health when they're vegan is because people use as an excuse to go back to harming animals and they don't need enough calories, for example. Right, yeah. They go from eating like sandwiches and steak and cheese to just f*** some lettuce or something. And then they they've got no energy, bro. Like it's got to be veganism. It's like, do you track any calories in that? Yeah. See, I like to do stir fries. I always just chop a bunch like just whatever like veggies I've got, you know, fry them up and then I'll rice. Yeah. Tofu is the best. If you get tofu and you crisp it up, make it crispy and you flavour it with hoisin or something, it's the best chicken replacement. We love it. And it's full of calcium. Yeah. Super high in calcium. Tofu. Do you use chronometer? I don't know what that is, no. Like it's like my fitness power. Oh, okay, yeah. Chronometer does all of your nutrients, spectrum. So you chuck tofu in there. See, calcium. High in. It's amazing what you can get from plants. I would use chronometer so you've got an idea about what's in certain protein replacements. Yeah. All right. I've got to go in one second. I just got one quick question. Where do you stand on honey? Is that okay or not? So with honey, I boycott honey. Okay. It's a different justification like when we're eating our crops and insects harmed in the crops, it's different to cultivating to bees, taking the honey from them and then gassing them. Okay. You know? And it's different to pollination with bees. Right. Because pollination with bees is like, not like the same as the honey industry. So I think like searing away from exploiting even insects is a good philosophy and that's why. I didn't know the gas bees. I thought they just, you know, I thought they just used had bee farms and you know, honey farms and some people had a problem with that because it's animal exploitation. There's a few welfare things too. They snip off the queen bees wings and leave their hive and there's things right. Get rid of the crops. What do we have? We've got dye. It's justified. But I don't think honey is. You've got agave syrup, maple syrup, all these different syrups. We've got a hundred syrups to choose from. Why do we need honey? Well, you know what I mean? We can switch it out. It's not like, I don't think it's justified personally. So yeah. I just ask because I really like honey. I've got a bit of a sweet too. You can go vegan honey. Yeah, there you go. Vegan honey. But it was really good talking to you, bro. I appreciate it a lot. I'll let you know Yeah, tell me how you're going. Yeah. And if you have any questions, why are you doing it? Look into some shit. Yeah. For sure. Watch some documentaries. I recommend watching Dominion if you can't stomach what happens to animals. But put it on in a background so you can listen to what happens to animals. Okay. It's just a good way to get information. All right, brother. Good talk to you, mate. Take care. All right. See you, bro. Cheers, guys.