 Aloha, welcome to Talk Story with John Wahei. Do we have a show for you today? We are going to take you to the inside, the inside, the mental processes that went into one of the major stories this past week when the Department of Hawaiian Homeland announced. They announced that they wanted to see a Native Hawaiian run or Native Hawaiian base casino on their crosslands, which as you probably know, if you're a member of the public, at least generated something other than what's happening in Washington as of interest to the, to the rest of us here in Hawaii. So got a great show for you today. Let's get started. I want to introduce all of you to Tyler Gomes. Now, Tyler, welcome. Good to have you. Aloha, thank you so much for having me. And tell us, tell us, Tyler, what is your relationship to the Department of Hawaiian Homeland? Why are you here speaking for them today? I'm the deputy director or the deputy to the chairman for the department. So in working in concert with our chairman, William Isla Jr., together we run the department and I guess have our name stamped to this interesting proposal as you called it. Yeah, it's extremely interesting and actually enlightening. I should mention that the chairman didn't tell me, I think, along the way that he said that the brains behind that whole effort might be you. I don't know if he was passing that off, but I nevertheless, we're glad to have you. You know, I'll take it it's a compliment, a very generous one at that. Well, tell us, tell us why, why would the Department of Hawaiian Homeland, first of all, tell us why would you even introduce such a proposal? Even if it's, I think, well, you know, why would you do it? And second, what's the process that it has gone through? Sure. So I, as you know, I think you're pretty familiar with the department. This year, 2021 marks the 100 year anniversary of the enactment of the Hawaiian Homes Commission Act. And when we look back on the last 100 years and everything that we have to show for that, I don't think it's a secret that there is a lot to be desired on behalf of our beneficiaries. I think our lawmakers wish to see more from the department. And so if you consider that the starting point for this discussion, we really were trying to figure out a way to make the promise of Prince Kuhio a reality in the next 100 years. And so what I think a lot of people know us for is developing homes. We have a number of other responsibilities. We manage loan portfolios. We have commercial property management. We run water utilities. In many ways, we're a small municipality. But all of that takes money and it takes resources. And the reality is with our current CIP budget, for example, being about 20 to 30 million a year and our request being about 150 million a year, we're looking at a $120 million deficit just on what we think we need and what our lawmakers believe they can afford to give us. If you look that's a lot of area. Well, the reason for the proposal seems to be that you needed to find a source of revenues to carry out the mission, the 100-year mission. But the Hawaii state constitution requires that the state of Hawaii fund, I guess the word is adequate, that the state of Hawaii fund you provide adequate funds for you to carry on this program. And so why is it that you need to propose a casino when there is this legal mandate for you to be adequately funded? Yeah, the legal term is sufficient sums I think coming out of this. Oh, sufficient sums. Yeah, sufficient is a nicer word. And that's been tied up in litigation for years. I think you've covered it previously on the show. But I think what the courts have found to be sufficient is still at a deficit compared to what the department deems sufficient. And until we can get folks on the same page as us seeing what we believe to be necessary to carry out the mission, I think it's upon us to continually innovate and think of new ways to generate, like you mentioned, steady, reliable sources of income that don't previously exist because the only way we're going to be able to plan out to serve our wait list of 28,000 native Hawaiians waiting is additional resources. And it doesn't look like that's coming anytime soon. Well, let me ask you a question. Now, you proposed that this facility, a gaming facility, would be built on your trust, at least originally, would be built on your trust lands in the couple area. But I think for the edification of the public, as I'm reading the stories that are coming on about that, that was not the only thing that you were proposing. I mean, you were actually talking about some kind of complex, commercial complex. So besides the casino, what was being proposed? So what we wrote into the bill was to allow for a license for what's called an integrated resort in the gaming industry. And so that complex is the combination of casino and gaming facilities in addition to hotel or convention space. And so together, they all exist as a single or singularly managed integrated resort facility. So the integrated resort facility out there is something, I mean, is it like a number of hotels, a casino, a number of casinos, what's an integrated, what are you talking about? Exactly. The way we see it is a single casino with an attached single hotel with maybe additional convention space, no different than a single casino you would find in any other locale with accommodations attached to it. The license does not contemplate more than one casino. So we were very, very specific about addressing the concern that many of our residents don't want to see some sprawling expansion of a strip here. We're trying to avoid that. Okay, now my understanding is that the proposal was proposed to the Hawaiian Homes Commission. There was a vote and it was very close vote. It was like four to three or some five, four, five, four. Yeah, right. Nine member commission, I guess. But it was also amended. So the original proposal was that this integrated resort project would be built at Kapolei. But after it got passed by a five, four vote by the commission, it now provides that it could be anywhere on Oahu. Am I correct with that? Yeah, so there was concern from the commission that if we limited it specifically to Kapolei, we could potentially exclude the land better suited for a casino by means of acquisition. So the mindset behind that suggestion to amend it was really let's not lock out the possibility that the department could acquire another parcel. Or buy a parcel. Exactly. But our commercial land holdings on Oahu, it's not substantial. I think it's less than 95 acres, 80 of which I think are in Kapolei. So I think for people to have an understanding of how Kapolei even was the genesis for this, it's because it's the largest of our commercial land holdings. And that designation as commercial lands, that's what the beneficiaries decided after beneficiary consultation in terms of our regional and island plan. So we're really thinking about what the beneficiaries thought to see from these commercially designated lands. Now, as I understand it, there's a, well, the last time I was out in Kapolei, which was a couple of weeks ago actually, there was a lot of shopping centers and there was a lot of commercial activity. And it's actually, I've heard some developers tell me that it was actually overbuilt given the size of the current population. So that's some consideration given to that. I think for commercial retail, I think we've also heard the same that it's overdeveloped. I do know that the intent is not that the integrated resort facility be competitive in terms of retail space. And what we've learned from experts in the field is that really surrounding the economics surrounding the casino. So small businesses, commercial retail all experience a windfall and a benefit from the casino being in the area. So overdeveloped or not, we're hopeful that there are echoing impacts, if you are rippling impacts into the extended community beyond the casino. Okay. So now the casino proposal gets passed by the commission with a five to four vote. And I assume because of what the newspaper reported, I mean the media reported was that from there it was then sent to Governor E. Gay as part of the administration proposed part of the administration's legislative package to this upcoming legislative session. I don't know what happened then, but I immediately read that the governor said no way, right? So not only and not only did the governor say no way, I mean in the past the legislature itself and prior governors have said that no gaming in Hawaii. No. Why would you propose it and where do we go from here? I think you might be a prime example as an answer to this question if I'm not mistaken, I believe you actually vetoed a gaming bill in your time. I actually vetoed the only gaming bill, the only gaming bill that passed the legislature which was for bingo. And it was so funny because all these nice ladies would come and really get upset because they wanted to play game bingo. And I would tell them, well you know your bishop, there were nice Catholic ladies who happened to be next door to Washington Place. Well I remember telling them that you know your bishop's against it and they said the bishop don't know what he's talking about. He should stick to heavenly things. So let me say this governor may not know what he was talking about. You know maybe you guys know something more than me. So where does it go from here? Yeah, you know I think your prime example for people sort of learning more about the topic and maybe changing their mind. And what we are grateful to the governor for is he's allowed the Hawaiian Homes Commission to sort of exercise its inherent authority to make this kind of decision and let that conversation keep going. So from here if the governor chooses not to include it in his package, there's still the opportunity to take it to the legislature. We've had interest expressed on both sides to introduce it. So you know we're not we're not disillusioned to the fact that this is a huge uphill battle. But again the principle is the department of Hawaiian homelands needs a source hopefully an independent source of revenue. Is that right? A reliable independent source. It's not to say that the legislature as our primary funding source isn't reliable but if we look at the last 20-50 years funding levels have changed throughout different generations in different eras and you know it makes it very difficult to plan for housing development in these six year development windows when every year you technically have to go back and reaffirm what you're getting in terms of funding. The reassurance of knowing you were going to get a steady amount every single year from the same source that you know that would be a game changer for this department. Well I tell you what we're going to take a short break and we're going to come back and you can tell us why. Why that would matter to the department and what do you intend to do with it if you got it. All right. Thank you. Welcome back to Talk Story with John Wahe and my special guest Tyler Gomes and we are talking about gambling and native Hawaiians. So anyway so there's a chance as we were discussing that the governor will say no I mean I think he will as as a personal matter but because of the unique position of Hawaiian homelands as a quasi anyway independent department he is not he is not forbidding you I guess from you know at least taking up the issue with the legislature directly or separate. Yeah and I go ahead. No no so I was going to say so you expect that they'll be hearings or what happens what can people expect. Well assuming we can get introductions on both sides of the legislature these bills will go towards the committee referrals we'll see what committees we get to if we're lucky enough that it's not a whole bunch of triple offerings then I think the question of are there going to be hearings what opportunities are there to continue this discussion with our lawmakers with the public who at that point have an opportunity to sort of opine on their thoughts. I think that's what's next for us but you know no matter how it goes I think the huge benefit to the department is we've got people talking about there's a huge funding shortage there's no time right now to make it up and maybe someone else out there with the brains has another amazing idea and this discussion hopefully sparks that person into you know there's a strategic purpose as well as just as a financial one I mean one would be to which I think you're saying which is that it'll highlight what the lack of resources has meant for the for the department now I you know and again you know this issue has come up before the before the state legislatures come up in Hawaii on many occasions and actually it's there were polls read on whether or not we should have gaming in Hawaii and contrary to what people may believe they have actually the majority of people actually thought it would might be a good idea over the polls over the years but nevertheless it has never made it through mainly because of what people felt might happen with the social with the social impact of it you know and so there was always this discussion about whether the revenues that you got and your ability to put thousands of Hawaiians in homes would outweigh the fact that some people might get addicted to it yeah we've been very fortunate to do a lot of reading on the topic and what the science actually shows is that the first of all there's already a gambling problem in Hawaii it said about 2.2 percent of the population and that's the same across the country between one and two percent but the science shows is that the introduction of a casino actually doesn't cause that rate to go up by very much and it restabilizes the community adapts and so there is no data that shows a link between introduction of gaming and a spike in problem gambling and the same is true for crime statistics many communities actually see stable or sometimes a decrease in crime once they introduce a casino and that's not because casinos result in a reduction of crime it's because those very communities and the casinos themselves have a vested interest in putting resources towards public health and safety and that community then reaps the benefits having that data now and drafting the bill allows us to know that if we dedicate resources towards problem gambling addiction and public health and safety ahead of time we have a better chance of keeping those statistics relatively low like the rest of the country has experienced. Now in other cases that I've seen that usually when the casino is being proposed what happens is that the person that we already the people who want it like say in the department of Hawaiian homes that usually have some idea of or some contact with or a partnership or something with somebody in the business and is that okay let's say tomorrow you get your casino can you actually run the thing? Well the way the bill is designed is it doesn't give us the casino it just gives the department the exemption to host one on their land the department can't afford to build or run it itself so ideally someone else will do it for us. So I got your plan the plan would be you get the the ability to do it and then you go and find a business partner like you would for any other commercial. Right we'd seek out the most qualified application and I think which one? Oh go ahead. Now there's been some talk though some people in opposition to all of this have has have indicated that if department of Hawaiian homes have the authority to to establish a developer casino that this might open the door to having Native Americans who have casinos on the US continent to come to Hawaii and open up a casino is that correct? Is that something that we ought to be worried about? No it's not correct and it's not something we have to be worried about as an attorney I think you'll enjoy this sort of exercise and thinking about it but the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act which is referred to as IGRA does allow federally recognized tribes the ability to host gaming operations off their reservation but in order to do so they need to go through a special process with the Department of the Interior to have that land taken into trust and the Department of the Interior has guidelines about when they can do so and all of those guidelines are tied to that tribes relationship to the land whether or not that land was a part of their former reservation maybe they were never recognized but historically they were in the area and none of those things are true for any tribe with there is no tribe in the United States that has ties to Hawaii in addition to that the Department of the Interior's process that would allow tribal gaming off reservation requires consent by the leadership of the state in which it's happening and unless a governor of Hawaii agreed to allow a tribe to come here it's after they have established that they will be doing it on Indian land that's what you say right it's a leak I don't want to call it an impossibility it's just a highly improbable legal outcome so I don't think it's something we have to worry about but you know that's something that we have to continue talking about because it's an old sort of fear yeah it's an old fear I think Danny know he had that fear so he made it very difficult it's not I think it's impossible for that to happen but anyway um okay you got your casino you're going to have this money what are you doing with it why in the world should people care I mean you know uh what are you doing what's some new exciting things that are happening at the department well I think when people think about what the department does they think the classic what we call a turnkey home so we give land with the house built on it and the beneficiary mortgages the home what we also do is we offer vacant lot offerings which are something new maybe in the last 20 years I think last decade and that provides improved land so it's got infrastructure in it water sewer electric to a beneficiary and they can build whatever suits their needs to code um for those who maybe can't afford to mortgage an entire four-bed three-bed or three-bed two-bed we also have a project coming up in Monteney even uh at Eisenberg the former bullet room site which is um a condominium we have rental now would that be your first condominium if it's built the first condominium which is an interesting concept because it's not the usual idea of a homestead which is the house of God in people's minds or a farm or a ranch this is the actual condominium which is you get a 99 year plus 100 year lease to air up in the air that's the interesting thing is we when when the administrative rules were developed to allow for the condominium we couldn't figure out a way to promise somebody a 99 year condominium because how many of those actually are there so it's not it's actually not a 99 plus 100 oh it's just a normal rental lease and so those people maintain their spot on the waitlist because we couldn't promise them the standard 99 year lease i think if we get to an innovative point where we do have the ability to promise somebody that 99 year lease then maybe we can adjust those rules but it's also an interesting balance because while a majority of our beneficiaries they want they want the turnkey home right they want about land there are still beneficiaries out there who would love the condominium who would love just vacant improved land and so we are always thinking about ways to diversify the offering so one of the problems one of the problems is that and it's you know one of the problems with the that people have been talking about with the with the program is that the waiting list is so long and have people on it have waited so long that i i heard some statistic that is about a third of the list is are actually kupuna they had actually been on the list for such a long time and for one reason or another whether the home state was being offered them a different island they couldn't afford it but for one reason or another um they no longer really uh people that who should be um you know that can have a house and lot uh what what if anything uh has the department considered about developing senior or kupuna housing we actually have a kupuna facility out in waimanalo um and i think it's a good model for if you've got the resources how do you how do you create affordable housing for those like you said we've been on the wait list for a long time it's actually half the wait list is over the age of 60 right now um it's it's really sobering because there are not many 60 plus year olds who are interested in building their dream house on vacant land many of them need something that's already suitable to their needs so you don't feel like you can when you're 60 years old that's it'll be fun to take on a 30-year mortgage tell my dad that he's gonna pass it to you but um yeah you know the only way these kind of projects are possible is with with resources to do it and we've got limited funding to sort of put into the kupuna project if we had more we would we've got rental home that's coming out in um on the big island soon and it's modeled after a folder rent to own program we did here on oahu but essentially uh you give beneficiaries who maybe can't qualify for a mortgage the opportunity to rent for a minimum period of time and that the uh expiration of that period then they have the opportunity opportunity to mortgage with the idea that they've been saving and planning for that 15 20 year minimum that they've been renting so reducing the threshold to home ownership is another strategy that the department has sort of put out there well you know our time is almost up i wish uh you know we did more but i didn't have a chance to really learn more about you know um tell us when did you become what's a little bit about your background right you know um i got my degree in Hawaiian language oahuai from uh manoa i went to same alma mater as you william s richardson school of law just to see finally finally we got it out finally we got it okay another uh richardson law school graduate thank you um i i clerked for a year i was a public defender for over four years um and then i stepped out and sort of ended up in consulting i worked for a nonprofit that invested in uh clean tech and through all of those things um this opportunity came up i applied and was very fortunate to be uh interviewed i i think there was a bit of skepticism given my age but i think a relative newcomer to this level of politics but you know i think that i was brought here to sort of bring a new sort of younger innovative energy and i'm trying to do that and i'm not saying every idea is the best one but i think if we don't have these big discussions and think of out of the box ways to solve our problems you know we're not going to move past the status quo so that's that's what i'm really trying to achieve well i want to thank you very much for uh spending time with us today and talking about this very important issue and uh as people will tell you uh you know the whole idea of gaming has been brought up over and over again and rejected over and over again but so has the need for the constitutional mandate that you know sufficient resources be provided to the um department of Hawaiian homeland so maybe one of these days we'll be able to fulfill one or the other of these objectives which uh which i hopefully will result in in the Hawaiian homes program becoming more viable than it has been in the past so thank you Tyler appreciate your being on mahalo