 Book 1, Part 4 of Plato's Republic. This is a LibriVox recording. All LibriVox recordings are in the public domain. For more information or to volunteer, please visit LibriVox.org. Recording by MB. The Republic by Plato. Translated by Benjamin Jowett. Book 1, Part 4. Well then, Thrasymachus, I said, Suppose you begin at the beginning and answer me. You say that perfect injustice is more gainful than perfect justice? Yes, that is what I say, and I have given you my reasons. And what is your view about them? Would you call one of them virtue and the other vice? Certainly. I suppose that you would call justice virtue and injustice vice. What a charming notion. So likely too, seeing that I affirm injustice to be profitable and justice not. What else then would you say? The opposite, he replied. And would you call justice vice? No, I would rather say sublime simplicity. Then you would call injustice malignity? No, I would rather say discretion. And do the unjust appear to you to be wise and good? Yes, he said. At any rate, those of them who are able to be perfectly unjust and who have the power of subduing states and nations. But perhaps you imagine me to be talking of cut purses. Even this profession, if undetected, has advantages. Though they are not to be compared with those of which I was just now speaking. I do not think that I misapprehend your meaning, Thrasymachus, I replied. But still I cannot hear without amazement that you class injustice with wisdom and virtue and justice with the opposite. Certainly I do so class them. Now I said, you are on more substantial and almost unanswerable ground for if the injustice which you were maintaining to be profitable had been admitted by you as by others to be vice and deformity an answer might have been given to you on received principles but now I perceive that you will call injustice honorable and strong and to the unjust you will attribute all the qualities which were attributed by us before to the just, seeing that you do not hesitate to rank injustice with wisdom and virtue. You have guessed most infallibly, he replied. Then I certainly ought not to shrink from going through with the argument so long as I have reason to think that you, Thrasymachus, are speaking your real mind. For I do believe that you are now in earnest and are not amusing yourself at our expense. I may be in earnest or not, but what is that to you? To refute the argument is your business. Very true, I said. That is what I have to do, but will you be so good as answer yet one more question? Does the just man try to gain any advantage over the just? Far otherwise if he did he would not be the simple amusing creature which he is. And would he try to go beyond just action? He would not. And how would he regard the attempt to gain an advantage over the unjust? Would that be considered by him as just or unjust? He would think it just and would try to gain the advantage, but he would not be able. Whether he would or would not be able, I said, is not to the point. My question is only whether the just man, while refusing to have more than another just man, would wish and claim to have more than the unjust. Yes, he would. And what of the unjust? Does he claim to have more than the just man and to do more than his just? Of course, he said, for he claims to have more than all men. And the unjust man will strive and struggle to obtain more than the unjust man or action in order that he may have more than all? True. We may put the matter thus, I said, the just does not desire more than his like, but more than his unlike, whereas the unjust desires more than both his like and his unlike. Nothing, he said, can be better than that statement. And the unjust is good and wise, and the just is neither? Good again, he said. And is not the unjust like the wise and good and the just unlike them? Of course, he said, he who is of a certain nature is like those who are of a certain nature. He who is not, not. Each of them, I said, is such as his like is? Certainly, he replied. Very good Thrasymachus, I said, and now to take the case of the arts. You would admit that one man is a musician and another not a musician? Yes. And which is wise and which is foolish? Clearly the musician is wise, and he who is not a musician is foolish. And he is good in as far as he is wise, and bad in as far as he is foolish? Yes. And you would say the same sort of thing of the physician? Yes. And do you think, my excellent friend, that a musician when he adjusts the liar would desire or claim to exceed or go beyond a musician in the tightening and loosening the strings? I do not think that he would. But he would claim to exceed the non-musician? Of course. And what would you say of the physician in prescribing meats and drinks? Would he wish to go beyond another physician or beyond the practice of medicine? He would not. But he would wish to go beyond the non-physician? Yes. And about knowledge and ignorance in general. See whether you think that any man who has knowledge ever would wish to have the choice of saying or doing more than another man who has knowledge. Would he not rather say or do the same as his like in the same case? That I suppose can hardly be denied. And what of the ignorant? Would he not desire to have more than either the knowing or the ignorant? I dare say. And the knowing is wise? Yes. And the wise is good? True. Then the wise and good will not desire to gain more than his like, but more than his unlike and opposite? I suppose so. Whereas the bad and ignorant will desire to gain more than both? Yes. But did we not say, Thrasymachus, that the unjust goes beyond both his like and unlike? Were not these your words? They were. And you also said that the just will not go beyond his like, but his unlike? Yes. Then the just is like the wise and good, and the unjust like the evil and ignorant? That is the inference. And each of them is such as his like is? That was admitted. Then the just has turned out to be wise and good, and the unjust evil and ignorant? Thrasymachus made all these admissions, not fluently as I repeat them, but with extreme reluctance. It was a hot summer's day, and the perspiration poured from him in torrents, and then I saw what I had never seen before, Thrasymachus blushing. As we were now agreed that justice was virtue and wisdom, and injustice, vice and ignorance, I proceeded to another point. Well, I said, Thrasymachus, that matter is now settled, but were we not also saying that injustice had strength? Do you remember? Yes, I remember, he said, but do not suppose that I approve of what you are saying or have no answer? However, I were to answer you would be quite certain to accuse me of haranguing. Therefore either permit me to have my say out, or if you would rather ask, do so, and I will answer very good, as they say to storytelling old women, and will nod yes and no. Certainly not, I said, if contrary to your real opinion. Yes, he said, I will to please you, since you will not let me speak. What else would you have? Nothing in the world, I said, and if you are so disposed, I will ask, and you shall answer. Proceed. Then I will repeat the question which I asked before, in order that our examination of the relative nature of justice and injustice may be carried on regularly. A statement was made that injustice is stronger and more powerful than justice. But now justice, having been identified with wisdom and virtue, is easily shown to be stronger than injustice, if injustice is ignorance. This can no longer be questioned by anyone, but I want to view the matter Thrasymachus in a different way. You would not deny that a state may be unjust and may be unjustly attempting to enslave other states, or may have already enslaved them, and may be holding many of them in subjection? True, he replied, and I will add that the best and most perfectly unjust state will be most likely to do so. I know, I said, that such was your position, but what I would further consider is whether this power, which is possessed by the superior state, can exist or be exercised without justice, or only with justice. If you are right in your view and justice is wisdom, then only with justice. But if I am right, then without justice. I am delighted Thrasymachus to see you are not only nodding assent and dissent, but making answers which are quite excellent. That is out of civility to you, he replied. You are very kind, I said, and would you have the goodness also to inform me whether you think that a state, or an army, or a band of robbers and thieves, or any other gang of evil doers could act at all if they injured one another? No indeed, he said, they could not. But if they abstained from injuring one another, they might act together better. Yes. And this is because injustice creates divisions and hatreds and fighting, and justice imparts harmony and friendship. Is that not true, Thrasymachus? I agree, he said, because I do not wish to quarrel with you. How good of you, I said, but I should like to know also whether injustice, having this tendency to arouse hatred wherever existing, among slaves or among freemen, will not make them hate one another and set them at variance and render them incapable of common action? Certainly. And even if injustice be found in two only, will they not quarrel and fight and become enemies to one another and to the just? They will. And suppose injustice abiding in a single person, would your wisdom say that she loses or that she retains her natural power? Let us assume that she retains her power. Yet is not the power which injustice exercises of such a nature that wherever she takes up her abode, whether in a city, in an army, in a family, or in any other body, that body is, to begin with, rendered incapable of united action by reason of sedition and distraction, and doesn't not become its own enemy and at variance with all that opposes it and with the just? Is this not the case? Yes, certainly. And is not injustice equally fatal when existing in a single person? In the first place, rendering him incapable of action because he is not at unity with himself? And in the second place, making him an enemy to himself and the just? Is that not true, Thrasymachus? Yes. And oh, my friend, I said, surely the gods are just? Granted that they are. But if so, the unjust will be the enemy of the gods and the just will be their friend? Feast away in triumph and take your fill of the argument I will not oppose you lest I should displease the company. Well then, proceed with your answers and let me have the remainder of my repast, for we have already shown that the just are clearly wiser and better and abler than the unjust, and that the unjust are incapable of common action. Nay, more that to speak as we did of men who are evil acting at any time vigorously together, it is not strictly true, for if they had been perfectly evil, they would have laid hands upon one another. But it is evident that there must have been some remnant of justice in them, which enabled them to combine. If there had not been, they would have injured one another as well as their victims. They were but half villains in their enterprises, for had they been whole villains and utterly unjust, they would have been utterly incapable of action. That, as I believe, is the truth of the matter and not what you said at first. But whether the just have a better and happier life than the unjust is a further question which we also proposed to consider. I should think that they have, and for the reasons which I have given, but still I should like to examine further, for no light matters at stake, nothing less than the rule of human life. Proceed. I will proceed by asking a question, would you not say that a horse has some end? I should. And the end or use of a horse or of anything would be that which could not be accomplished or not so well accomplished by any other thing? I do not understand, he said. Let me explain. Can you see, except with the eye? Certainly not. Or hear, except with the ear? No. Then these may be truly said to be the ends of these organs. They may. But you can cut off a vine branch with a dagger or with a chisel, and in many other ways? Of course. And yet not so well as with a pruning hook made for the purpose? True. May we not say that this is the end of a pruning hook? We may. Then now I think you will have no difficulty in understanding my meaning when I asked the question whether the end of anything would be that which could not be accomplished or not so well accomplished by any other thing? I understand your meaning, he said, and ascent. And that to which an end is appointed also has an excellence. Need I ask again whether the eye has an end? It has. And has not the eye an excellence? Yes. And the ear has an end and an excellence also? True. The same is true of all other things. They have each of them an end and a special excellence. That is so. Well, and can the eyes fulfill their end if they are wanting in their own proper excellence and have a defect instead? How can they, he said, if they are blind and cannot see? You mean to say if they have lost their proper excellence, which is sight, but I have not arrived at that point yet. I would rather ask the question more generally and only inquire whether the things which fulfill their ends fulfill them by their own proper excellence and fail of fulfilling them by their own defect? Certainly, he replied. I might say the same of the ears when deprived of their own proper excellence they cannot fulfill their end. True. And the same observation will apply to all other things? I agree. Well, and has not the soul an end which nothing else can fulfill? For example, to superintend and command and deliberate and the like are not these functions proper to the soul? And can they be rightly assigned to any other? To no other. And is not life to be reckoned among the ends of the soul? Assuredly, he said. And has not the soul an excellence also? Yes. And can she or can she not fulfill her own ends when deprived of that excellence? She cannot. Then an evil soul must necessarily be an evil ruler and superintendent and the good soul a good ruler. Yes, necessarily. And we have admitted that justice is the excellence of the soul and injustice the defect of the soul. That has been admitted. Then the just soul and the just man will live well and the unjust man will live ill. That is what your argument proves. And he who lives well is blessed and happy and he who lives ill the reverse of happy? Certainly. Then the just is happy and the unjust miserable. So be it, but happiness and not misery is profitable. Of course. Then my blessed Thrasymachus injustice can never be more profitable than justice. Let this, Socrates, he said, be your entertainment at the bendidae, for which I am indebted to you, I said, now that you have grown gentle towards me and have left off scolding. Nevertheless, I have not been well entertained, but that was my own fault and not yours. As an epicure snatches a taste of every dish which is successively brought to table, he not having allowed himself time to enjoy the one before. So have I gone from one subject to another without having discovered what I sought at first, the nature of justice. I left that inquiry and turned away to consider whether justice is virtue and wisdom or evil and folly. And when there arose a further discussion about the comparative advantages of justice and injustice, I could not refrain from passing on to that. And the result of the whole discussion has been that I know nothing at all, for I know not what justice is and therefore I am not likely to know whether it is or is not a virtue. Nor can I say whether the just man is happy or unhappy. End of book one. Book two, part one of Plato's Republic. This is a LibriVox recording. All LibriVox recordings are in the public domain. For more information or to volunteer, please visit LibriVox.org. Recording by M.B. The Republic by Plato, translated by Benjamin Jowett. Book two, part one. With these words I was thinking that I had made an end of the discussion. But the end, in truth, proved to be only a beginning. For Glaucon, who is always the most pugnacious of men, was dissatisfied at Thresymachus' retirement. He wanted to have the battle out. So he said to me, Socrates, do you really wish to persuade us or only to seem to have persuaded us that to be just is always better than to be unjust? I should wish really to persuade you, I replied, if I could. Then you certainly have not succeeded. Let me ask you how. How would you arrange goods? Are there not some which we welcome for their own sakes and independently of their consequences, as, for example, harmless pleasures and enjoyments, which delight us at the time, although nothing follows from them? I agree in thinking that there is such a class, I replied. Is there not only a second class of goods, such as knowledge, sight, health, which are desirable not only in themselves, but also for their results? Certainly, I said. And would you not recognize a third class, such as gymnastic, and the care of the sick, and the physician's art? Also the various ways of money making. These do us good, but we regard them as disagreeable, and no one would choose them for their own sakes, but only for the sake of some reward, or result which flows from them. There is, I said, this third class also. But why do you ask? Because I want to know in which of the three classes you would place justice. In the highest class, I replied, among those goods which he who would be happy desires both for their own sake and for the sake of their results. Then the many are of another mind. They think that justice is to be reckoned in the troublesome class, among goods which are to be pursued for the sake of rewards and of reputation, but in themselves are disagreeable and rather to be avoided. I know, I said, that this is their manner of thinking, and that this was the thesis Thrasomachus was maintaining just now when he censured justice and praised injustice, but I am too stupid to be convinced by him. I wish, he said, that you would hear me as well as him, and then I shall see whether you and I agree, for Thrasomachus seems to me like a snake to have been charmed by your voice sooner than he ought to have been. But to my mind the nature of justice and injustice have not yet been made clear. Setting aside their rewards and results, I want to know what they are in themselves and how they inwardly work in the soul. If you please then, I will revive the argument of Thrasomachus, and first I will speak of the nature and origin of justice according to the common view of them. Secondly I will show that all men who practice justice do so against their will of necessity, but not as a good. And thirdly I will argue that there is reason in this view, for the life of the unjust is after all better far than the life of the just. If what they say is true Socrates, since I myself am not of their opinion, but still I acknowledge that I am perplexed when I hear the voices of Thrasomachus and myriads of others dinning in my ears. And on the other hand I have never yet heard the superiority of justice to injustice maintained by anyone in the satisfactory way. I want to hear justice praised in respect of itself, then I shall be satisfied, and you are the person from whom I think that I am most likely to hear this. And therefore I will praise the unjust life to the utmost of my power, and my manner of speaking will indicate the manner in which I desire to hear you too praising justice and censuring injustice. Will you say whether you approve of my proposal? Indeed I do, nor can I imagine any theme about which a man of sense would often or wish to converse. I am delighted, he replied, to hear you say so, and shall begin by speaking, as I proposed, of the nature and the origin of justice. They say that to do injustice is by nature good, to suffer injustice evil, and that the evil is greater than the good. And so when men have both done and suffered injustice and have had experience of both, not being able to avoid the one and obtain the other, they think that they had better agree among themselves to have neither. Hence there arise laws and mutual covenants, and that which is ordained by law is termed by them lawful and just. This they affirm to be the origin and nature of justice. It is a mean or compromise between the best of all which is to do injustice and not be punished, and the worst of all which is to suffer injustice without the power of retaliation. And justice, being at a middle point between the two, is tolerated not as good, but as the lesser evil, and honored by reason of the inability of men to do injustice. For no man who is worthy to be called a man would ever submit to such an agreement if you were able to resist. He would be mad if he did, such is the received account Socrates of the nature and origin of justice. Now that those who practice justice do so involuntarily, and because they have not the power to be unjust, will best appear if we imagine something of this kind. Having given both to the just and the unjust power to do what they will, let us watch and see with their desire will lead them. Then we shall discover in the very act the just and unjust man to be proceeding along with same road, following their interest which all natures deem to be their good, and are only diverted into the path of justice by the force of law. The liberty which we are supposing may be most completely given to them in the form of such a power as is said to have been possessed by Gaijes, the ancestor of Cresus, the Lydian. According to the tradition, Gaijes was a shepherd in the service of the king of Lydia. There was a great storm, and an earthquake made an opening in the earth at the place where he was feeding his flock. Amazed at the sight, he descended into the opening, where, among other marvels, he beheld a hollow brazen horse having doors, at which he, stooping and looking in, saw a dead body of stature, as it appeared to him, more than human, and having nothing on but a gold ring. This he took from the finger of the dead and re-ascended. Now the shepherds met together, according to custom, that they might send their monthly report about the flocks to the king. Into their assembly he came, having the ring on his finger, and as he was sitting among them, he chanced to turn the collet of the ring inside his hand, when instantly he became invisible to the rest of the company, and they began to speak of him as if he were no longer present. He was astonished at this, and again touching the ring, he turned the collet outwards and reappeared. He made several trials of the ring, and always with the same result. When he turned the collet inwards, he became invisible. When outwards, he reappeared, whereupon he contrived to be chosen one of the messengers who were sent to the court, whereas soon as he arrived he seduced the queen, and with her help conspired against the king and slew him, and took the kingdom. Suppose now that there were two such magic rings, and the just put on one of them, and the unjust the other. No man can be imagined to be of such an iron nature that he would stand fast in justice. No man would keep his hands off what was not his own, when he could safely take what he liked out of the market, or go into houses and lie with anyone at his pleasure, or kill or release from prison whom he would, and in all respects be like a god among men. Then the actions of the just would be as the actions of the unjust. They would both come at last to the same point, and we may truly affirm to be a great proof that a man is just, not willingly, or because he thinks that justice is any good to him individually, but of necessity. For wherever anyone thinks that he can safely be unjust, there he is unjust. For all men believe in their hearts that injustice is far more profitable to the individual than justice, and he who argues as I have been supposing will say they are right. If you could imagine anyone obtaining this power to become invisible and never doing any wrong or touching what was in others, he would be thought by the lookers on to be a most wretched idiot, although they would praise him to one another's faces, and keep up appearances with one another from a fear that they too might suffer injustice. Enough of this. Now, if we are to form a real judgment of the life of the just and unjust, we must isolate them. There is no other way. And how is the isolation to be affected? I answer, let the unjust man be entirely unjust, and the just man entirely just. Nothing is to be taken away from either of them, and both are to be perfectly furnished for the work of their respective lives. First, let the unjust be like other distinguished masters of craft, like the skillful pilot or physician who knows intuitively his own powers and keeps within their limits, and who, if he fails at any point, is able to recover himself. So let the unjust make his unjust attempts in the right way, and lie hidden if he means to be great in his injustice. He who is found out is nobody, for the highest reach of injustice is to be deemed just when you are not. Therefore I say that in the perfectly unjust man we must assume the most perfect injustice. There is to be no deduction, but we must allow him, while doing the most unjust acts, to have acquired the greatest reputation for justice. If he have taken a false step, he must be able to recover himself. He must be one who can speak with effect if any of his deeds come to light, and who can force his way where force is required by his courage and strength and command of money and friends. And at his side let us place the just man in his nobleness and simplicity, wishing, as Escalus says, to be and not to seem good. There must be no seeming, for if he seem to be just, he will be honoured and rewarded, and then we shall not know whether he is just for the sake of justice or for the sake of honours and rewards. Therefore let him be clothed in justice only, and have no other covering, and he must be imagined in a state of life the opposite of the former. Let him be the best of man, and let him be thought the worst. Then he will have been put to the proof, and we shall see whether he will be affected by the fear of infamy and its consequences. And let him continue thus to the hour of death, being just and seeming to be unjust. When both have reached the uttermost extreme, the one of justice and the other of injustice, let judgment be given which of them is the happier of the two. Heavens, my dear Glaucon, I said, how energetically you polished them up for the decision, first one and then the other, as if they were two statues. I'd do my best, he said. And now that we know what they are like, there is no difficulty in tracing out the sort of life which awaits either of them. This I will proceed to describe, but as you may think the description a little too coarse, I ask you to suppose, Socrates, that the words which follow are not mine. Let me put them into the mouths of the eulogists of injustice. They will tell you that the just man who is thought unjust will be scourged, wracked, bound, will have his eyes burnt out, and at last, after suffering every kind of evil, he will be impaled. Then he will understand that he ought to seem only and not to be just, for the words of Escalus may be more truly spoken of the unjust than of the just. For the unjust is pursuing a reality. He does not live with a view to appearances. He only wants to be really unjust and not to seem only. His mind has a soiled deep and fertile out of which spring his prudent counsels. In the first place, he is thought just and therefore bears rule in the city. He can marry whom he will and give in marriage to whom he will. And also he can trade and deal where he likes and always to his own advantage because he has no misgivings about injustice. And at every contest, whether in public or private, he gets the better of his antagonists and gains at their expense and is rich. And out of his gains he can benefit his friends and harm his enemies. Moreover, he can offer sacrifices and dedicate gifts to the gods abundantly and magnificently. And can honour the gods or any man whom he wants to honour in a far better style than the just, and therefore he is likely to be dearer than they are to the gods. And thus, Socrates, gods and men are said to unite in making the life of the unjust better than the life of the just. I was going to say something in answer to Glaucon when Adamantus, his brother, interposed. Socrates, he said, Do you not suppose that there is nothing more to be urged? Why? What else is there? I answered. The strongest point of all has not been even mentioned, he replied. Well then, according to the proverb, let brother help brother. If he fails in any part, do you assist him? Although I must confess that Glaucon has already said quite enough to lay me in the dust and take from me the power of helping justice. Nonsense, he replied. But let me add something more. There is another side to Glaucon's argument about the praise and censure of justice and injustice, which is equally required in order to bring out what I believe to be his meaning. Parents and tutors are always telling their sons and their wards that they are to be just. But why? Not for the sake of justice, but for the sake of character and reputation, in the hope of obtaining for him who is reputed just some of those offices, marriages and the like which Glaucon has enumerated among the advantages accruing to the unjust from the reputation of justice. More, however, is made of appearances by this class of persons than by the others, for they throw in the good opinion of the gods and will tell you of a shower of benefits which the heavens, as they say, reign upon the pious. And this accords with the testimony of the noble Hesiod and Homer, the first of whom says that the gods make the oaks of the just to bear acorns at their summit and bees in the middle and the sheep are bowed down with the weight of their fleeces and many other blessings of a like kind are provided for them. And Homer has a very similar strain, for he speaks of one whose fame is as the fame of some blameless king who like a god maintains justice to whom the black earth brings forth wheat and barley whose trees are bowed with fruit and his sheep never to fail and the sea gives him fish. Still grander are the gifts of heaven Mousseus and his son vouchsafe to the just. They take them down into the world below where they have the saints lying on couches at a feast everlastingly drunk, crowned with garlands. Their idea seems to be that an immortality of drunkenness is the highest mead of virtue. Some extend their rewards yet further. The posterity, as they say, of the faithful and just shall survive to the third and fourth generation. This is the style in which they praise justice, but about the wicked there is another strain. They bury them in a slew in Hades and make them carry water in a sieve. Also while they are yet living they bring them to infamy and inflict upon them the punishments which Glaucon described as the portion of the just who are reputed to be unjust. Nothing else does their invention supply. Such is their manner of praising the one and censuring the other. Once more, Socrates, I will ask you to consider another way of speaking about justice and injustice which is not confined to the poets but is found in prose writers. The universal voice of mankind is always declaring that justice and virtue are honorable but grievous and toilsome and that the pleasures of vice and injustice are easy of attainment and are only censured by law and opinion. They say also that honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty. And they are quite ready to call wicked men happy and to honor them both in public and private when they are rich or in any other way influential while they despise and overlook those who may be weak and poor even though acknowledging them to be better than the others. But most extraordinary of all is their mode of speaking about virtue and the gods. They say that the gods apportion calamity and misery to many good men and good and happiness to the wicked and the mendicant prophets go to rich men's doors and persuade them that they have a power committed to them by the gods of making an atonement for a man's own or his ancestor's sins by sacrifices and charms with rejoicings and feasts. And they promise to harm an enemy whether just or unjust at a small cost with magic arts and incantations binding heaven as they say to execute their will. And the poets are the authorities to whom they appeal without smoothing the path of vice with the words of Hesiod. Vice may be had in abundance without trouble the way is smooth and her dwelling place is near but before virtue the gods have set toil and a tedious and uphill road then citing Homer as a witness that the gods may be influenced by men for he also says the gods too may be turned from their purpose and men pray to them and avert their wrath by sacrifices and soothing entreaties and by libations and the odor of fat when they have sinned and transgressed and they produce a host of books written by Museus and Orpheus who were children of the moon and the Muses that is what they say according to which they perform their ritual and persuade not only individuals but whole cities that expiation and atonement for sin may be made by sacrifices and amusements which fill a vacant hour and are equally at the service of the living and the dead the latter sort they call mysteries and they redeem us from the pains of hell but if we neglect them no one knows what awaits us he proceeded and now when the young hear all this said about virtue and vice and the way in which gods and men regard them how are their minds likely to be affected my dear Socrates those of them I mean who are quick-witted and like bees on the wing light on every flower and from all that they hear are prone to draw conclusions as to what manner of persons they should be and in what way they should walk if they make the best of life probably the youth will say to himself in the words of Pindar can I by justice or by crooked ways of deceit ascend a loftier tower which may be a fortress to me all my days for what men say is that if I am really just and am not also thought just profit there is none but the pain and loss on the other hand are unmistakable but if though unjust I acquire the reputation of justice a heavenly life is promised to me since then as philosophers prove appearance tyrannizes over truth and is lord of happiness to appearance I must devote myself I will describe around me a picture and shadow of virtue to be the vestibule and exterior of my house behind I will trail the subtle and crafty fox as Archlelocus greatest of sages recommends but I hear someone exclaiming that the concealment of wickedness is often difficult to which I answer nothing great is easy nevertheless the argument indicates this if we would be happy to be the path along which we should proceed with a view to concealment we will establish secret brotherhoods and political clubs there are professors of rhetoric who teach the art of persuading courts and assemblies and so partly by persuasion and partly by force I shall make unlawful gains and not be punished still I hear a voice saying that the gods cannot be deceived neither can they be compelled but what if there are no gods or suppose them to have no care of human things why in either case should we mind about concealment and even if there are gods and they do care about us yet we know of them only from tradition and the genealogies of the poets and these are the very persons who say they may be influenced and turned by sacrifices and soothing and treaties and by offerings let us be consistent then and believe both or neither if the poets speak truly then we had better be unjust and offer of the fruits of injustice for if we are just although we may escape the vengeance of heaven we shall lose the gains of injustice but if we are unjust we shall keep the gains and by our sinning and praying and praying and sinning the gods will be propitiated and we shall not be punished but there is a world below in which either we or our posterity must suffer for our unjust deeds yes my friend will be the reflection but there are mysteries and atoning deities and these have great power that is what mighty cities declare and the children of the gods who were their poets and prophets bear a like testimony on what principle then shall we any longer choose justice rather than the worst injustice when if we only unite the latter with a deceitful regard to appearances we shall fare to our mind both with gods and men in life and after death as the most numerous and the highest authorities tell us knowing all this Socrates how can a man who has any superiority of mind or person or rank or wealth be willing to honour justice or indeed to refrain from laughing when he hears justice praised and even if there should be someone who is able to disprove the truth of my words and who is satisfied that justice is best still he is not angry with the unjust but is very ready to forgive them because he also knows that men are not just of their own free will unless per adventure there be someone whom the divinity within him may have inspired with a hatred of injustice or who has attained knowledge of the truth but no other man he only blames injustice who owing to cowardice or age or some weakness has not the power of being unjust and this is proved by the fact that when he obtains the power he immediately becomes unjust as far as he can be the cause of all this Socrates was indicated by us at the beginning of the argument when my brother and I told you how astonished we were to find that of all the professing panagyrists of justice beginning with the ancient heroes of whom any memorial has been preserved to us and ending with the men of our own time no one has ever blamed injustice or praised justice except with a view to the glories, honours and benefits which flow from them no one has ever adequately described either in verse or prose the true essential nature of either of them abiding in the soul and invisible to any human or divine eye or shown that of all the things of a man's soul which he has within him justice is the greatest good and injustice the greatest evil had this been the universal strain had you sought to persuade us from this from our youth upwards we should not have been on the watch to keep one another from doing wrong but everyone would have been his own watchman because afraid if he did wrong of harboring in himself the greatest of evils I dare say that Thrasymachus and others would seriously hold the language which I have been merely repeating and words even stronger than these about justice and injustice grossly, as I conceive perverting their true nature but I speak in this vehement manner as I must frankly confess to you because I want to hear from you the opposite side and I would ask you to show not only the superiority which justice has over injustice but what effect they have on the possessor of them which makes the one to be a good and the other an evil to him and please, as Glaucan requested of you to exclude the reputations for unless you take away from each of them his true reputation and add on the false we shall say that you do not praise justice but the appearance of it we shall think that you are only exhorting us to keep injustice dark and that you really agree with Thrasymachus and thinking that justice is another's good and the interest of the stronger and that injustice is a man's own profit and interest, though injurious to the weaker now as you have admitted that justice is one of the highest class of goods which are desired indeed for their results but in a far greater degree for their own sakes like sight or hearing or knowledge or health or any other real and natural and not merely conventional good I would ask you in your praise of justice to regard one point only I mean the essential good and evil which justice and injustice work in the possessors of them let others praise justice and censure injustice magnifying the rewards and honors of the one and abusing the other that is a manner of arguing which coming from them I am ready to tolerate but from you who have spent your whole life in the consideration of this question unless I hear the contrary from your own lips I expect something better and therefore I say not only prove to us that justice is better than injustice but show what they either of them due to the possessor of them which makes the one to be a good and the other an evil whether seen or unseen by gods and men End of book 2 part 1 Book 2 part 2 of Plato's Republic this is a LibriVox recording all LibriVox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit LibriVox.org Recording by Veran Yeo The Republic by Plato translated by Benjamin Jowett Book 2 part 2 I had always admired the genius of Glogan and Antimantis but on hearing these words I was quite delighted and said sons of an illustrious father that was not a bad beginning of the Elegiate verses which the admirer of Glogan made in honor of you after you had distinguished yourselves at the battle of Magorra Sons of Ariston he sang Divine offspring of an illustrious hero The epithet is very appropriate for there is something truly divine in being able to argue as you have done for the superiority of injustice and remaining unconvinced by your own argument and I do believe that you are not convinced this I infer from your general character for had I judged only from your speeches I should have mistressed at you but now the greater my confidence in you the greater is my difficulty in knowing what to say for I am in a strait between two on the one hand I feel that I am unequal to the task and my inability is brought home to me by the fact that you were not satisfied with the answer which I made to Thrasi Marcus proving as I thought the superiority which justice has over injustice and yet I cannot refuse to help while breath and speech remain to me I am afraid that there would be an impiety in being present when justice is evil spoken of and not lifting up a hand in her defence and therefore I had best give such help as I can Glawkin and the rest entreated me by all means not to let the question drop but to proceed in the investigation they wanted to arrive at the truth first about the nature of justice and justice and secondly about their relative advantages I told them what I really thought that the inquiry would be of a serious nature and would require very good eyes seeing then I said that we are no great wits I think that we had better adopt a method which I may illustrate thus suppose that a short-sighted person had been asked by someone to read small letters from a distance and it occurred to someone else that they might be found in another place which was larger and in which letters were larger if they were the same and he could read the larger letters first and then proceed to the lesser this would have been thought a rare piece of good fortune very true said Adimentus but how does this illustration apply to our inquiry? I will tell you I replied justice which is the subject of our inquiry is as you know sometimes spoken of as a virtue of an individual and sometimes as a virtue of a state true he replied and is not a state larger than an individual it is then in the larger the quantity of justice is likely to be larger and more easily discernible I propose therefore that we inquire into the nature of justice and injustice first as they appear in the state and secondly in the individual proceeding from the greater to lesser and comparing them that he said is an excellent proposal and if we imagine the state and possess of creation we shall see the justice and injustice of the state in process of creation also I dare say when the state is completed there may be a hope that the object of our search will be more easily discovered yes far more easily but or be to attempt to construct one I said for to do so as I am inclined to think will be a very serious task reflect therefore I have reflected said as our mantis and am anxious that you should proceed a state I said arises as I conceive out of the needs of mankind no one is self-sufficing but all of us have many wants can any other origin of a state be imagined there can be no other then as we have many wants and many persons are needed to supply them one takes a helper for one purpose and another for another and when these partners and helpers are gathered together in one habitation the body of inhabitants is termed a state true he said and the exchange with one another and one gives and another receives under the idea that the exchange will be for a decade very true then I said let us begin and create an idea a state and yet the true creator is necessity who is the mother of our invention of course he replied now the first and greatest of necessities is food which is the condition of life and existence certainly the second is a dwelling and the third clothing and the like true and now let us see how our city will be able to supply this great amount we may suppose that one man is a husband man another a builder someone else a weaver shall we add to them a shoemaker or perhaps some other purveyor to our bodily wants quite right the barest notion of a state must include four or five men clearly and how will they proceed will each bring the result of his labours into a common stock the individual husband for example producing four four and labouring four times as long and as much as he need in the provision of food with which he supplies others as well as himself or will he have nothing to do with others and not be in the trouble of producing for them but provide for himself alone a fourth of a food in a fourth of a time and in the remaining three fourths of his time be employed in making a house or a coat or a pair of shoes having no partnership with others but supplying himself all his own wants and I mantis thought that he should aim at producing food only and not at producing everything probably I replied that would be the better way and when I hear you say this I am myself reminded that we are not all alike there are diversities of natures among us which are adapted to different occupations very true and will you have a work better done when the workman has many occupations or when he has only one when he has only one further there can be no doubt that a work is bought we're not done at the right time no doubt the business is not disposed to wait until the doer of the business is at leisure but the doer must follow up what he is doing and make the business his first object he must and if so we mustn't far that all things are produced more plentifully and easily and offer better quality when one man does one thing which is natural to him and does it at the right time and leaves other things undoubtedly then more than four sins will be required for the husbandman will not make his own plow or metal or other implements of agriculture if they are to be good for anything neither will the builder make his tools and he too needs many and unlike many other weaver and shoemaker true then carpenters and smiths and many other artisans will be share us in our little state which is already beginning to grow true yet even if we add neither shepherd and other herdsman in order that our husbandman may have oxen to plow with and builders as well as husbandman may have draft cattle and couriers and weavers, fleecers and hights still our state will not be very large that is true yet neither will it be a very small state which contains all these then again there is the situation of the city to find a place when nothing need to be imported is well-nigh impossible impossible then there must be another class of citizens who will bring the required supply from another city there must but if the trader goes empty handed having nothing which they require or with supply his need he will come back empty handed that is certain and therefore what they produce at home must be not only enough for themselves but search both in quantity and quality as to accommodate those from whom their wants are supplied very true then more husbandman and more artisans will be required they will not mention the importers and exporters who are called merchants yes then we shall want merchants we shall and if merchandise is to be carried over the sea skillful sailors will also be needed and inconsiderable numbers yes inconsiderable numbers then again within the city how will they exchange their productions to secure such an exchange was as you will remember one of our principal objects when you form them into a society and constituted a state clearly they will buy and sell then they will need a marketplace and a money token for purposes of exchange certainly suppose now that a husbandman or an artisan brings some production to market and he comes at a time when there is no one to exchange with him as he is to leave his calling and sit idle in the marketplace not at all he will find people there who seeing the want undertake the office of salesman in our audit state they are commonly those who are the weakest in bodily strengths and therefore of little use for any other purpose their duty is to be in the market and to give money in exchange for goods to those who desire to sell and to take money from those who desire to buy this once then creates a class of retail traders in our state it's not the tailor the term which is applied to those who sit in the marketplace engaged in buying and selling while those who wonder from one city to another are called merchants yes, he said and there is another class of servants who are intellectually hardly on the level of companionship still they have plenty of bodily strength for labour which accordingly they sell and are called if I do not mistake hirelings hire being the name which is given to the price of the labour true then hirelings will help to make up our population yes and now as I mounted it all stayed matured and perfected I think so enter part 2 part 2 recording by Feren Miel please visit LibriFox.org recording by Jim Allman The Republic by Plato translated by Benjamin Joett book 2 part 3 where then is justice and where is injustice and in what part of the state did they spring up? probably in the dealings of these citizens with one another I cannot imagine that they are more likely to be found anywhere else I dare say that you are right we had better think the matter out and not shrink from the inquiry let us consider first of all what will be their way of life now that we have thus established them will they not produce corn and wine and clothes and shoes and build houses for themselves and when they are housed will they work in summer commonly stripped and barefoot but in winter substantially clothed and shod they will feed on barley meal and flour of wheat making noble cakes and loaves these they will serve up on a mat of reeds or clean leaves themselves reclining the while upon bed strewn with the you or myrtle and they and their children will feast drinking of the wine which they have made wearing garlands on their heads and hymning the praise of the gods in happy converse with one another and they will take care that their families do not exceed their means having an eye to poverty or war but said Glaucon interposing to their meal true I replied I had forgotten of course they must have a relish salt and olives and cheese and they will boil roots and herbs such as country people prepare for dessert we shall give them figs and peas and beans and they will roast myrtleberries and acorns at the fire drinking in moderation and with such a diet they may be expected to live in peace and health to a good old age and bequeath a similar life to their children after them just socrates he said and if you were providing for a city of pigs how else would you feed the beasts but what would you have Glaucon I replied why he said you should give them the ordinary conveniences of life people who are to be comfortable are accustomed to lie on sofas and dine off tables and they should have sauces and sweets in the modern style yes I said now I understand the question which you would have me consider is not only how a state but how a luxurious state is created and possibly there is no harm in this for in such a state we shall be more likely to see how justice and injustice originate in my opinion the true and healthy constitution of the state is the one which I have described but if you wish to also see a state at fever heat I have no objection for I suspect that many will not be satisfied with the similar way of life they will be for adding sofas and tables and other furniture also dainties and perfumes and courtesans and cakes all these not of one sort only but in every variety we must go beyond the necessities of which I was first speaking such as houses and clothes and shoes the arts of the painter and the embroiderer will have to be set in motion and gold and ivory and all sorts of material must be procured true he said then we must enlarge our borders for the original healthy state is no longer sufficient now will the city have to fill and swell with a multitude of callings that are not required by any natural want such as the whole tribe of hunters and actors of whom one large class have to do with forms and colors another will be the votaries of music poets and their attendant train of rhapsodist players dancers contractors also makers of diverse kinds of articles including women's dresses and we shall want more servants will not tutors also be in request and nurses wet and dry tire women and barbers confectioners and cooks and swineherds too who are not needed and therefore had no place in the former edition of our state but are needed now they must not be forgotten and there will be animals of many other kinds of people eat them certainly and living in this way we shall have much greater need of physicians than before much greater and the country which was enough to support the original inhabitants will be too small now and not enough quite true then a slice of our neighbors our neighbors land will be wanted by us for pastor and tillage and they will want a slice of ours if like ourselves they exceed the limit of necessity and give themselves up to the unlimited accumulation of wealth that Socrates will be inevitable and so we shall go to war Glockon shall we not most certainly he replied then without determining as yet whether war does good or harm thus much we may affirm that now we have discovered war to be derived which are also the causes of almost all evil in states private as well as public undoubtedly and our state must once more enlarge and this time the enlargement will be nothing short of a whole army which will have to go out and fight with the invaders for all that we have as well if there's things in persons whom we were describing above why he said are they not capable of defending themselves no I said not if we were right that the principal which was acknowledged by all of us when we were coming the state the principal as you will remember was that one man cannot practice many arts with success very true he said but is not war an art certainly and an art requiring as much attention as shoemaking quite true and the shoemaker was not allowed by us to be a husband or a weaver or a builder in order that we might have our shoes well made but to him and to every other worker was assigned one work for which he was by nature fitted and at that he was to continue working all his life long and at no other he was not to let opportunity slip and then he would become a good workman now nothing can be more important than that the work of a soldier should be well done but his war an art so easily acquired that a man may be a warrior who is also a husband man or shoemaker or other artisan although no one in the world would be a good dice or draught player who merely took up the game as a recreation and had not from his earliest years devoted himself to this something else no tools will make a man a skilled workman or master of defense nor be of any use to him who has not learned how to handle them and has never bestowed any attention upon them how then will he who takes up a shield or other implement of war become a good fighter all in a day whether with heavy armed or any other kind of troops yes he said the tools which would teach men their own use would be beyond price and the higher the duties of the guardian the more time and skill an art and application will be needed by him no doubt he replied will he not also require natural aptitude for his calling certainly then it will be our duty to select if we can natures which are fitted for the task of guarding the city it will and the selection will be no easy matter I said but we must be brave and do our best we must is not the noble youth very like a well bred dog in respect of guarding and watching what do you mean I mean that both of them ought to be quick to see and swift to overtake the enemy when they see him and strong too if when they have caught him they have to fight with him all these qualities he replied will certainly be required by them well and your guardian must be brave if he is to fight well yes and is he likely to be brave who has no spirit whether horse or dog or any other animal have you never observed how invincible conquerable is spirit and how in the presence of it makes the soul of any creature to be absolutely fearless and indomitable I have then we now have a clear notion of the bodily qualities which are required in the guardian true and also the mental ones his soul is to be full of spirit yes but are not these spirited natures apt to be savage with one another and with everybody else a difficulty by no means easy to overcome he replied whereas I said they ought to be dangerous to their enemies and gentle to their friends if not they will destroy themselves without waiting for their enemies to destroy them true he said what is to be done then I said how shall we find a gentle nature which has also a great spirit for the one is the contradiction of the other true he will not be a good guardian who is wanting either of these two qualities and yet the combination of them appears to be impossible and hence we must infer that to be a good guardian is impossible but what you say is true he replied you're feeling perplexed I begin to think over what had preceded my friend I said no wonder that we are in a perplexity for we have lost sight of the image which we had before us what do you mean he said I mean to say that there do exist natures gifted with these opposite qualities and what do you find them many animals I replied furnished examples of them our friend the dog is a very good one you know that well bred dogs are perfectly gentle to their familiars and acquaintances and the reverse to strangers yes I know then there is nothing impossible or out of the order of nature in our finding a guardian who has a similar combination of qualities certainly not would not he who is fitted to be a guardian besides the spirited nature need to have the qualities of a philosopher I do not apprehend your meaning the trait of which I am speaking I replied may be also seen in the dog and is remarkable in the animal what trait why a dog whenever he sees a stranger is angry when an acquaintance he welcomes him although the one has never done him any harm nor the other any good did this never strike you as curious the matter never struck me before but I quite recognize the truth of your remark and surely this instinct of the dog is very charming your dog is a true philosopher why why because he distinguishes the face of a friend and of an enemy only by the criterion of knowing and not knowing and must not an animal be a lover of learning who determines what he likes and dislikes by the test of knowledge and ignorance most assuredly and is not the love of learning the love of wisdom which is philosophy they are the same he replied and may we not say confidently a man also that he who is likely to be gentle to his friends and acquaintances must by nature be a lover of wisdom and knowledge that we may safely affirm then he is to be a really good and noble guardian the state will require to unite in himself philosophy and spirit and swiftness and strength undoubtedly then we have found the desired natures and now that we have found them how are they to be reared and educated is this not an inquiry which may be expected to throw light on the greater inquiry which is our final end how do justice and injustice grow up in states for we do not want either to omit what is the point or to draw out the argument to an inconvenient length I demand this thought that the inquiry would be of great service to us then I said my dear friend the task must not be given up even if somewhat long certainly not end of book 2 part 3 recording by Jim Allman Houston Texas book 2 part 4 of Plato's Republic this is a LibriVox recording all LibriVox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit LibriVox.org recording by Jim Allman the Republic by Plato translated by Benjamin Joatt book 2 part 4 come then and let us pass a leisure hour in storytelling and our story shall be the education of our heroes by all means and what shall be their education when we find a better than the traditional sort and this has two divisions gymnastic for the body and music for the soul true shall we begin education with music and go on to gymnastic afterwards by all means and when you speak of music do you include literature or not I do and literature may be either true or false yes and the young shall be trained in both kinds and we begin with the faults I do not understand your meaning he said you know I said that we begin by telling children's stories which though not holy destitute of truth are in the main fictitious and these stories are told to them when they are not of age to learn gymnastics very true that was my meaning when I said that we must teach music before gymnastics quite right he said you know also that the beginning is the most important part of any work especially in the case of a young and tender thing for that is the time at which characters being formed and the desired impression is more readily taken quite true and shall we just carelessly allow children to hear any casual tales which may be devised by casual persons and to receive into their minds ideas for the most part the very opposite of those which we should wish them to have when they are grown up we cannot then the first thing will be to establish a censorship of the writers of fiction and let the censors receive any tale of fiction which is good and reject the bad and we will desire mothers and nurses to tell their children the best ones only let them fashion the mind with such tales even more fondly than they would mold the body with their hands but most of those which are now in use must be discarded of which tales are you speaking he said you may find a model of the lesser in the greater I said for they are necessarily of the same type and there is the same spirit in both of them very likely he replied but I do not as yet know what you would term the greater those I said which are narrated by Homer and Hesiod and the rest of the poets which have ever been the great storytellers of mankind but which stories do you mean he said and what fault do you find with them a fault which is most serious I said the fault of telling a lie and what is more a bad lie but when is this fault committed whenever an erroneous representation is made of the nature of gods and heroes as when a painter paints a portrait not having the shadow of a likeness to the original yes he said that sort of thing is certainly very blameable but what are the stories which you mean first of all I said there was that greatest of all lies in high places which the poet told about Uranus and which was a bad lie too I mean what Hesiod says that Uranus did and how Cronus retaliated on him the doings of Cronus and the sufferings which in turn his son inflicted upon him even if they were true odd certainly not to be lightly told to young and thoughtless persons if possible they had better be buried in silence but if there is an absolute necessity for their mention a chosen few might hear them in a mystery and they should sacrifice not a common illusian pig but some huge and unprocurable victim and then the number of the hearers will be very few indeed why yes he said those stories are extremely objectionable yes at Imantus they are stories not to be repeated in our state the young man should not be told that most of crimes he is far from doing anything outrageous and that even if he chastises his father when he does wrong in whatever manner he will only be following the example of the first and greatest among the gods I entirely agree with you he said in my opinion those stories are quite unfit to be repeated neither if we mean future guardians to regard the habit of quarreling among themselves as of all things the basest should anything be said to them of the wars in heaven and of the plots and fightings of the gods to one another for they are not true no we shall never mention the battles of the giants or let them be embroidered on garments and we shall be silent about the innumerable other quarrels of gods and heroes with their friends and relatives if they would only believe us we would tell them that quarreling is unholy and that never up to this time has there been any quarrel between citizens this is what old men and old women should begin telling children and when they grow up the poets also should be told to compose for them in a similar spirit but the narrative of Hephaestus binding Hera his mother or how on another occasion Zeus sent him flying for taking her part when she was being beaten and all the battles of the gods and Homer these tales must not be admitted into our state whether they are supposed to have an allegorical meaning or not for a young person cannot judge what is allegorical and what is literal anything that he receives into his mind at that age is likely to become indelible and unalterable and therefore it is most important that the tales which the young first hear should be models of virtuous thoughts there you are right he replied but if anyone asks where are such models to be found and of what tales are you speaking how shall we answer him I said to him you and I at Imantus at this moment are not poets but founders of a state now the founders of a state ought to know the general forms in which poets should cast their tales and the limits which must be observed by them but to make the tales is not their business very true he said but what are these forms of theology which you mean something of this kind I replied God is always to be represented as he truly is whatever be the sort of poetry epic lyric or tragic in which the representation is given right and is he not truly good and must he not be represented as such certainly and no good thing is hurtful no indeed and that which is not hurtful hurts not certainly not and that which hurts not does no evil no and can that which does no evil be a cause of evil impossible and the good is advantageous yes and therefore the cause of well-being yes it follows therefore that the good is not the cause of all things but of the good only assuredly then God if he be good is not the author of all things as the many assert but he is the cause of a few things only and not of most things that occurred to men for few are the goods of human life and many are the evils and the good is to be attributed to God alone of the evils the causes are to be sought elsewhere and not in him that appears to me to be most true he said then we must not listen to Homer to any other poet who is guilty of the folly of saying that two casts lie at the threshold of Zeus full of lots one of good the other of evil lots and that he to whom Zeus gives a mixture of the two sometimes meets with evil fortune at other times with good but that he to whom is given the cup of unmingled ill him wild hunger drives or the beauties earth and again Zeus who is the dispenser of good and evil to us and if anyone asserts that the violation of oaths and treaties which was really the work of Pandaris was brought about by Athene and Zeus or that the strife and contention of the gods was instigated by Zeus and Zeus he shall not have our approval neither will we allow our young men to hear the words of asculus thus God plans guilt among men when he desires utterly to destroy a house and if a poet writes of the sufferings of Nairobi the subject of the tragedy in which these iambic verses occur or the house of Pellops or the Trojan war or on any similar theme either we must not permit him to say that these are the works of God or if they are God he must devise some explanation of them such as we are seeking he must say that God did what was just and right and that they were the better for being punished but that those who are punished are miserable and that God is the author of their misery the poet is not to be permitted to say though he may say that the wicked are miserable because they require to be punished and are benefited by receiving punishment from God but that God being good is the author of evil to anyone is to be and not to be said or sung or heard in verse or prose by anyone whether old or young in any well ordered Commonwealth such a fiction is suicidal ruinous impious I agree with you he replied and I'm ready to give my assent to the law let this then be one of our rules and principles concerning the gods to which our poets and reciters will be expected to conform that God is not the author of all things but of good only that will do he said and what do you think of a second principle shall I ask whether God is a magician and of a nature to appear insidiously now in one shape and now in another sometimes himself changing and passing into many forms sometimes deceiving us with the semblance of such transformations or is he one in the same immutably fixed in his own proper image I cannot answer you he said without more thought well I said but if we suppose a change in anything that change must be affected either by the thing itself or by some other thing most certainly and things which are at their best are also least liable to be altered or discomposed for example when healthiest and strongest the human frame is least liable to be affected by meats and drinks and the plant which is in the fullest vigor also suffers least from winds or the heat of the sun or any similar causes of course and will not the bravest and wisest soul be least confused or deranged by any external influence true and the same principle as I should suppose applies to all composite things furniture houses garments when good and well made they are least altered by time and circumstances very true then everything which is good whether made by art or nature or both is least liable to suffer change from without true but surely God and the things of God are in every way perfect of course they are then he can hardly be compelled by external influence to take many shapes he cannot but may he not change and transform himself clearly he said that must be the case if he has changed at all and will he then change himself for the better and fairer or for the worse and more unsightly if he changes at all he can only change for the worse for we cannot suppose him to be deficient either in virtue or beauty very true at a mantis but then would anyone whether God or man desire to make himself worse impossible then it is impossible that God should ever be willing to change being as is supposed the fairest and best that is conceivable every God remains absolutely and forever in his own form that necessarily follows he said in my judgment then I said my dear friend let none of the poets tell us the Gods taking the disguise of strangers from other lands walk up and down cities in all sorts of forms and let no one slander Proteus and Thetis neither let anyone either in tragedy or in any other kind of poetry introduce Harry disguised in the likeness of a priestess asking in alms for the life-giving daughters of Inotius the River of Argos let us have no more lies of that sort neither must we have mothers under the influence of the poets scaring their children with a bad version of these myths telling how certain Gods as they say go about by night in the likeness of so many strangers in diverse forms but let them take heed lest they make cowards of their children and at the same time speak blasphemy against the Gods heaven forbid he said but although the Gods themselves are unchangeable still by witchcraft and deception they make us think that they appear in various forms perhaps he replied well but can you imagine that God will be willing to lie whether in word or deed or to put forth a phantom of himself I cannot say he replied do not know I said that the true lie if such an expression may be allowed is hated of Gods and men what do you mean he said I mean that no one is willingly deceived in that which is the truest and highest part of himself or about the truest and highest matters there above well he is most afraid of a lie having possession of him still he said I do not comprehend you the reason is I replied that you attribute some profound meaning to my words but I am only saying the deception or being deceived or uninformed about the highest realities in the highest part of themselves which is the soul and then that part of them to have and to hold the lie is what mankind like least that I say is what they utterly detest there is nothing more hateful to them and as I was just now remarking this ignorance in the soul of him who is deceived may be called the true lie for the lie and words is only a kind of imitation and shadowy image of a previous affection of the soul not pure unadulterated falsehood am I not right perfectly right the true lie is hated not only by the Gods but also by men yes whereas the lie and words is in certain cases useful and not hateful in dealing with enemies that would be an instance or again when those whom we call our friends in a fit of madness or illusion are going to do some harm then it is useful and is a sort of medicine or preventive also in the tales of mythology of which we were just now speaking because we do not know the truth about ancient times we make falsehood as much like truth as we can and so turn it to account very true he said but can any of these reasons apply to God can we suppose that he is ignorant of antiquity and therefore has recourse to invention that would be ridiculous he said then the lying poet has no place in our idea of God I should say not or perhaps he may tell a lie because he is afraid of enemies that is inconceivable but he may have friends who are senseless or mad but no mad or senseless person can be a friend of God then no motive can be imagined why God should lie none whatever then the superhuman and divine is absolutely incapable of falsehood yes then is God perfectly simple and true both in word and deed he changes not he deceives not either by sign or word by dream or waking vision your thoughts he said are the reflection of my own you agree with me then I said that this is the second type of form of the divine things the gods are not magicians who transform themselves neither do they deceive mankind in any way I grant that then although we are admirers of Homer we do not admire the lying dream which Zeus sends to Agamemnon neither will we praise the verses of Aeschylus in which Thetis says that Apollo at her nupitals was celebrating in song her fair progeny whose days were to be long and to know no sickness God is in all things blessed of heaven he raised a note of triumph and cheered my soul and I thought that the world of Phoebus being divine and full of prophecy would not fail and now he himself who uttered the strain he who was present at the banquet he who said this he it is who has slain my son these are the kind of sentiments about the gods which will arouse our anger and he who utters them shall be refused a course which shall we allow teachers to make use of them in the instruction of the young meaning as we do that our guardians as fair as men can be should be true worshipers of the gods and like them I entirely agree he said in these principles and promise to make them by laws end of book 2 recording by Jim Allman Houston, Texas book 3 part 1 of Plato's Republic this is a Librivox recording all Librivox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit Librivox.org recording by Jim Allman the Republic by Plato translated by Benjamin Joatt book 3 part 1 such then I said are our principles of theology some tales are to be told and others are not to be told to our disciples from their youth upwards if we mean them to honor the gods and their parents and to value friendship with one another yes and I think that our principles are right he said but if they are to be courageous must they not learn other lessons besides these and lessons of such a kind as will take away the fear of death can any man be courageous while he has the fear of death in him certainly not he said and can he be fearless of death or will he choose death in battle rather than defeat in slavery who believes the world below to be real and terrible? impossible then we must assume a control over the narrators of this class of tales as well as over the others and beg them not simply to revile but rather to commend the world below intimating to them that their descriptions are untrue and will do harm to our future warriors that will be our duty he said then I said we shall have to obliterate many obnoxious passages beginning with the verses that would rather be a surf on the land of a poor and portionless man than rule over all the dead who have come to naught we must also expunge the verse which tells us how Pluto feared lest the mansions grim and squalid which the gods of horror should be seen both of mortals and immortals and again oh heavens verily in the house of Hades there is soul and ghostly form but no mind at all again of Tiresias and even after death did Persephone grant mind that he alone should be wise but the other souls are flitting shades again the soul flying from the limbs has gone to Hades lamenting her fate leaving manhood and youth again and the soul with shrilling cry pass like smoke beneath the earth and as bats in hollow of mystic cavern whenever any of them has dropped out of the string flies shrilling and cling to one another so did they with shrilling cry hold together as they moved and we must beg Homer and the other poets not to be angry if we strike out these and similar passages not because they are un-poetical or unattractive to the popular ear but because the greater the poetical charm of them the lesser they meet for the ears of boys and men who are meant to be free and who should fear slavery more than death undoubtedly also we shall have to reject all the terrible and appalling names which describe the world below Cositas and Styx ghosts under the earth and sapless shades and any similar words of which the very mention causes a shudder to pass through the inmost soul of him who hears them I do not say that these horrible stories may not have a use of some kind but there is a danger that the nerves of our guardians may be rendered too excitable and effeminate by them there is no real danger he said then we must have no more of them true another and no blestrain must be composed and sung by us clearly and shall we proceed to get rid of the weepings and wailings of famous men they will go with the rest but shall we be right in getting rid of them reflect our principle is that the good man will not consider death terrible to any other good man who is his comrade yes that is our principle and therefore he will not soar over his hands as though he had suffered anything terrible he will not such a one as we further maintain is sufficient for himself in his own happiness and therefore is least in need of other men true he said and for this reason the loss of a son or brother or the deprivation of fortune is to him of all men least terrible assuredly and therefore he will be least likely to lament and will bear with the greatest equanimity any misfortune of this sort which may befall him yes he will feel such a misfortune far less than another then we shall be right in getting rid of the lamentations of famous men and making them over to women and not even to women who are good for anything or to men of a baser sort that those who are being educated by us to be the defenders of their country may scorn to do the like that will be very right and then we will once more entreat Homer and the other poets not to depict Achilles who is the son of a goddess first lying on his side then on his back and then on his face then starting up and sailing in a frenzy along the shores of the barren sea now taking the sooty ashes in both his hands and pouring them over his head or weeping and wailing in the various modes which Homer has delineated nor should he describe Priam the kinsmen of the gods as praying and beseeching rolling in the dirt calling each man loudly by his name still more earnestly will we beg of him at all events not to introduce the gods lamenting and saying alas my misery alas that I bore the bravest to my sorrow but if he must introduce the gods at any rate let him not dare so completely to misrepresent the greatest of the gods as to make him say oh heavens with my eyes verily I behold a dear friend of mine chased round and round the city and my heart is sorrowful or again woe is me that I am fated to have Sarpedon dearest of men to me subdued at the hands of Patroclus the son of Mautius for if my sweet adamantus our youth seriously listens to such unworthy representations of the gods instead of laughing at them as they ought hardly will any of them deem that he himself being but a man can be dishonored by similar actions neither will he rebuke any inclination which may arise in his mind to say and do the like and instead of having any shame or self-control he will be always whining and lamenting on slight occasions yes he said that is most true yes I replied but that surely is what ought not to be as the argument has just proved to us and by that proof we must abide until it is disproved by a better it ought not to be neither ought our guardians to be given to laughter for a fit of laughter which has been indulged in excess almost always produces a violent reaction so I believe then persons of worth even if only mortal men must not be represented as overcome by laughter and still less must such a representation of the gods be allowed still less of the gods as you say he replied then we shall not suffer such an expression to be used about the gods as that of Homer when he described how inextinguishable laughter arose the gods when they saw have fast as bustling about the mansion on your views we must not admit them on my views if you like to farther them on me that we must not admit them as certain again truth should be highly valued if as we were saying a lie is useless to the gods and useful only as medicine to men then the use of such medicine should be restricted to physicians private individuals have no business with them clearly not he said then if anyone at all is to have the privilege of lying the rulers of the state should be the persons and they in their dealings either with enemies or with their own citizens may be allowed to lie for the public good but nobody else should meddle with anything of the kind and although the rulers have this privilege for a private man to lie to them in return is to be deemed a more heinous fault than for the patient or the pupil of a gymnasium not to speak the truth about his own bodily illness to the physician or to the trainer or for a sailor not to tell the captain what is happening about the ship and the rest of the crew and how things are going with himself or his fellow sailors most true he said if then the ruler catches anybody besides himself lying in the state any of the craftsmen whether he be priest or physician or carpenter he will punish him for introducing a practice which is equally subversive and destructive most certainly he said if our idea of the state is ever carried out in the next place our youth must be temperate certainly are not the chief elements of temperance generally speaking obedience to commanders in self-control and central pleasures true then we shall approve such languages that of Diomedaean Homer friend sit still and obey my word and the verses which follow the Greeks marched breathing prowess in silent awe of their leaders and other sentiments of the same kind we shall what of this line oh heavy with wine who has the eyes of a dog and the heart of a stag and of the words which follow would you say that these or any similar impertences which private individuals are supposed to address their rulers whether inverse or pros are well or ill-spoken they are ill-spoken they may very possibly afford some amusement but they do not conduce to temperance and therefore they are likely to do harm to our young men would you agree with me there yes and then again to make the wisest of men say that nothing in his opinion is more glorious than when the tables are full of bread and meat and the cup bearer carries round wine which he draws from the bowl and pours into the cups is it fit or conducive to temperance for a young man to hear such words or the verse the saddest of fates is to die and meet destiny from hunger what would you say again to the tale of Zeus who while other gods and men were asleep and he the only person awake lay devising plans but forgot them all in a moment through his lust and was so completely overcome with the sight of Harry that he would not even go into the hut but wanted to lie with her on the ground declaring that he had never been in such a state of rapture before even when they first met one another without the knowledge of their parents or that other tale of how Hephaestus because of similar goings on cast a chain around Aries in Aphrodite indeed he said I am strongly of opinion that they ought not to hear that sort of thing but any deeds of endurance which are done are told by famous men these they ought to see and hear as for example what is said in the verses he smote his breast and thus reproached his heart endure my heart far worse hast thou endured certainly he said in the next place we must not let them be receivers of gifts or lovers of money certainly not neither must we sing to them of gifts persuading gods and persuading reverent kings neither is Phoenix the tutor of Achilles to be approved or deemed to have given his pupil good counsel when he told him that he should take the gifts of the Greeks and assist them but that without a gift he should not lay aside his anger neither will we believe or acknowledge Achilles himself to have been such a lover of money that he took Agamemnon's gifts or that when he had received payment he restored the dead body of Hector but that without payment he was unwilling to do so undoubtedly he said these are not sentiments which can be approved loving Homer as I do I hardly like to say that in attributing these feelings to Achilles or in believing that they are truly attributed to him he is guilty of downright impiety as little can I believe the narrative of his insolence to Apollo where he says thou hast wronged me, oh far darter most abominable of deities verily I would be even with thee if I only had the power or his insubordination to the river-god on whose divinity he is ready to lay hands or his offering to the dead patroclus of his own hair which had been previously dedicated to the other river-god's parcheus and that he actually performed this vow or that he dragged Hector around the tomb of Patroclus and slaughtered the captives at the pyre of all this I cannot believe that he was guilty any more than I can allow our citizens to believe that he the wise Charon's pupil the son of a goddess and of Pellis who was the gentlest of men and third in descent from Zeus was so disordered in his wits as to be at one time the slave of two seemingly inconsistent passions meanness not untainted in his wits meanness not untainted by avarice combined with overweening contempt of gods and men you are quite right he replied and let us equally refuse to believe or allow to be repeated the tale of Theseus son of Poseidon or a parathas son of Zeus going forth as they did to perpetrate a horrid rape or of any other hero or son of a god daring to do such empires and dreadful things as they falsely ascribe to them in our day and let us further compel the poets to declare either that these acts were not done by them or that they were not the sons of gods both in the same breath they shall not be permitted to affirm we will not have them trying to persuade our youth that the gods are the authors of evil and that heroes are no better than men sentiments which as we were saying are neither pious nor true we have already proved that evil cannot come from the gods assuredly not and further they are likely to have a bad effect on those who hear them for everybody will begin to excuse his own vices when he is convinced that similar wickednesses are always being perpetrated by the kindred of the gods, the relatives of Zeus whose ancestral altar the altar of Zeus is aloft in the air on the peak of Ida and who have the blood of deities yet flowing in their veins and therefore let us put an end to such tales lest they engender laxity of morals among the young by all means he said but now that we are determining what classes of subjects are or are not to be spoken of let us see whether any have been omitted by us the men in which gods and demigods and heroes in the world below should be treated has already been laid down very true and what shall we say about men that is clearly the remaining portion of our subject clearly so but we are not in a condition to answer this question at present my friend because if I am not mistaken we shall have to say that about men poets and storytellers are guilty of making the gravest misstatements when they tell us that wicked men are often happy and the good miserable and that injustice is profitable when undetected but that justice is a man's own loss and another's gain these things we shall forbid them to utter and command them to sing and say the opposite to be sure we shall he replied but if you admit that I am right in this then I shall maintain that you have implied the principle for which I have been all along contending I grant the truth of your inference that such things are or are not to be said about men is a question which we cannot determine until we have discovered what justice is and how naturally advantageous to the possessor whether he seems to be just or not most true he said end of book 3 part 1 recording by Jim Allman