 What we're doing there's a right to sack Joan you hear me Gordo mm-hmm There's bubble verse I think about some times Many times It goes then I heard the voice of the Lord Saying who shall I send and who will go for us? and I Said Here am I Send me That's Shia LaBeouf from the movie fury Talking about the mixed feelings that come with being chosen I thought it was a good fit for my interview with David Ditchfield who had a rather remarkable near-death experience I pushed David pretty hard on his Christian interpretation of the experience, but I think we settled on some But I think we settled on some interesting deeper truths about being chosen Interviewed people David who've had multiple near-death experiences and they've said that they've gone deeper and subsequent ones and the reality that they were at gave way to a deeper reality and Then a deeper reality beyond that and they even speculate that there's almost no end to how deep or how high Because it's all moving towards the light moving towards God moving towards love How does that strike you? Yes? I do because as I said to you I felt like I was being prepared for something to go on to another stage and I've realized now since my NDE that a lot of My teachings are still coming through now. It's almost like they sent me back and it's kind of okay So I'm back here now, but I didn't suddenly feel like oh man. I don't want to be back here. You know I straight away. I was thinking right. I want what's my purpose why they sent me back Stay with us for skeptico Welcome to skeptico where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers thinkers and their critics I'm your host Alex Icarus and Today we welcome David Ditchfield to skeptico. He's here to talk about a new book of his called shine on an Amazing remarkable near-death experience story that changed David's life in well a number of ways that we're gonna talk about You know, we don't usually do stories on near-death experience accounts But David has a lot more to talk about in terms of the near-death experience in general and also I think there's some interesting kind of subtle cultural differences between the UK and the US and how we all think about near-death experience So David, I think we'll have a good discussion. Thanks for joining me today No, thanks for having me along good to meet you Alice So I can jump right into it the excellent trailer that you guys did for the book. So So this is it David, you know had a near-death experience and that was just very gripping. I remember listening to that I couldn't turn it off at all. I was really drawn into his experience and you could hear it in his voice Okay, so for folks who saw that I think it's gonna be super compelling For folks who are listening, which is the largest part of our It probably didn't have as much except There are these amazing Images that you do in your painting that we're gonna talk more about and then also that music That all comes about as a result of this remarkable experience So in words then tell people and what they're hearing in Introduction Okay. Yeah, well what I wanted to condense actually into that trailer there was you know the book itself Which is a journey which starts off it starts with a point in my life where I was down Basically on my luck. I was I'd hit hard times and I Then we take you from that point to the train accident that I had that should have taken my life But didn't and then the near-death experience and then coming out of that coming through the other side of all that and Suddenly being compelled to to want to paint Huge canvases like I'd never done before in my life and then going from that to want to write classical music which had also never done and all these things came about because I felt this Strong urge to really want to be able to tell everyone what I'd seen and what I've been through You know, I just felt and still feel this. It's very important message to get across So yeah, that's that's in a nutshell the kind of it's a journey if you like so it's taking you from that journey of Darkness at the beginning has to be said because that's where I was at and coming out the other side and coming into like this You know a beautiful more colorful and three-dimensional way of living, you know So there's kind of a lot to that, you know, as I kind of alluded to on this show We've kind of explored a lot of different of the aspects of near-death experience kind of more from a scientific standpoint and that's not to Lessened the significance of anyone's story but more as a way to kind of Lead us into someone's story because your account is is remarkable because You're just kind of a guy there who's in London who's a very expensive place to live and you're having trouble Making it doing labor stuff and building tree houses and doing that stuff And you go say goodbye to your girlfriend on the train and you go to step back from the train Your coat is caught in the in the train, which is quite Unbelievable to think how that could happen, but it does and you should die I mean from what happens you're dragged down the tracks you're thrown under the train You should die by all accounts instead you what happens is what we hear so often in the near-death experience You throw on outside of your body have this amazing experience and then as you say You have a transformation afterwards that changes your life in some Significant ways, so it is a remarkable story in all those respects You know one of the things that you deal with in your book I guess is kind of this interplay between Two different groups I thought this was an interesting interplay these two different groups that are kind of advising you in one Are these folks from the spiritualist church? Which are guiding you in this kind of profound way and the other is this very Materialistic kind of psychological you're going to see a therapist and she's coming at it from a very grounded kind of I don't really know if I believe this, but I'll just go off Well, what did you see is that in your personal life? What do you what did how did you experience that tension between the kind of spiritualist church perspective and the? psychiatrist perspective well both absolutely relevant to me at the time and as much as obviously I'd had to deal with Quite in a horrific accident you know going under a train and facing life Sorry death in the eyes is very traumatic, so I had to deal with all that That's why I had those sessions, but at the same time I was being helped by the spiritualist church I was going to spiritual healing and I found that to be really quite remarkable It was helping me to heal both physically and mentally and and I know that that was challenging to people in a medical profession I The therapist because I knew that she was kind of like it was kind of the gears were grinding a bit for her because I kept Talking about my spiritual aspect and I could I felt that she was trying to close me down on that So yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I knew that she was in that she was she couldn't deny what I was talking about It was actually something quite strong and powerful and so in terms of science you talking about you know I've been in Conversations with scientists well via interviews like this and and I found it to be really okay You know because I mean for me we need science I wouldn't still be here now Without the scientists like I either doctors and the consultants that saved me and put me back together You know so we need the balance of two in our lives So that's how I see it with those two aspects that I found that I was benefiting from both and I never found that there was a Personally for me that there was a kind of a jarring so of the gears as I put it. So yeah, both were really relevant Yeah, I just think there's there's a lot of different ways to take that one of the things I felt again and again in the book is kind of this cultural difference that I don't know if a lot of people pick up on but You're probably in a good position to talk to it because as part of the book shine on You've now done a number of interviews with people in the US as well as in the UK And there seems to be we seem to have a kind of a different take on it people in the US seem to Be much more open to the spiritual light and love stuff and in the UK. It seems like we're still having to Kind of tell the story. This is real. Please believe me You know and did an interview with the woman from the Guardian and she's like wow I probably don't really believe you and I'm really afraid of death So tell tell me the story from that standpoint and I just wonder if you see those How you see those differences in our two cultures? Yeah, there's a massive change most certainly you're talking to US people. It's I don't know what it is. It's just I guess it's it's like it's a very cultural thing You know that the the British are very, you know, sort of stiff up a lip and you know We almost like stuck in Victorian times still very we don't get in touch with emotions And it's it's almost like yes, okay. Let's um There's many a times that I'd speak to people here. I mean for example when I was in hospital I remember I wanted to speak to Like the like the priest that was in the hospital itself I was dying to speak to him because I thought he's got to get this story straight away He was a lovely guy But I felt that he was like kind of closing me down as if to say okay, David That's enough. Let's say a prayer for you But I thought and that was so very British whereas yes when I had to speak to people in the US so a lot more wanting to sort of Listen and absorb more of it and they're not too quick to sort of judge on it but again going back to what I was just talking about earlier, it's it's good to have both elements because In saying that I've spoken to I've done interviews here I remember doing an interview on a like a drive-time show here and this guy came on and He got me on the show and I could hear him talking just before the commercial break. I thought this is all wrong It's not gonna work. It was one of the very first interviews that I did. I thought he's just not gonna get this and So, yeah, he kind of went come on then, you know, tell us the story So I started telling it and by the time I'd finished it he was going look I've got to stop you because we're going to the news break, but this is great I want to come back to this and It was like it made me realize that people can deny it as much as they like but at the end of the day It's it's that thing that I realized that none of us actually think about death at all It's a strange thing that none of us do none of us want to go there But it's not like I think we should be talking about it every day over our breakfast cereal. It's just that We should actually talk about it more because it's inevitable It's all gonna happen to us at one point, you know, we may as well talk about it and think about it and and the fear element will go away and So so maybe in the US a lot more people are going to be a lot more open to that point and When that happens when that point of death comes up, they'll be less scared less fearful Maybe although, you know, there's a couple other ways to pull apart those cultural differences like one of the things I see is it seems to me that people in the UK have kind of bought into the atheistic kind of scientism stuff that Some folks in the US have kind of gotten to the other side of and said hey, that's probably not the whole story We are not just Biological robots in the meaningless universe. There's something more to this story Versus I still when I talk to people in the UK they they're unapologetic about well, of course I'm of course I'm atheist of course science explains everything and you're like Oh, you haven't maybe kept up on the research there and the same thing like when I heard your therapist say, okay You know I David to be honest with you I first investigated your NDE and I know about I think she even said MDMA receptors in the brain and all this stuff which is like outdated out Completely dismissed science as it comes to near-death experience. So I wonder if That just hasn't penetrated to a certain extent, but then you also on the flip side of that So you guys are atheistic in kind of a mind-numbing way and then of course in the US They're Christian in a mind-numbing kind of way where it's hey, it has to be this one Way and that's the only way we could ever understand it. That has its that has its limitations, too There's a lot of people who aren't actually atheists who are you know, but it's mainly sort of Christian and Church of England as we call it all Catholic and I think it's a whole mess there that we could get into, you know Exactly because it's a faith that hasn't changed over over decades or centuries Yes, I mean it's remained the same and there's no budging. So there's no sort of like leeway You know as I talked about the priests in the hospital though It's almost like it was like a robot who's at the steams about to start coming out his ears I can't I can't comprehend this. This is wrong, you know think in turn we can't understand it in terms of He can't process it and then I think at this other level that we're not even aware of We can't process why he can't process it if you know what I mean Like I get the sense that you weren't a super religious guy beforehand But you had a sense that if you went to a priest He would have some answer and then when he doesn't that kind of throws you for a loop like But aren't you supposed to be interested in this? What is really maybe exactly that's exactly how I felt You know, it wasn't like I was going there for sort of Confirmation of what happened. It was like I just thought wow you you you guys will want to hear this because it's part of your I'm sure it's part of your faith But then I realized afterwards that it's not that in fact that the afterlife is not really discussed that much in Most of the British faiths it's apart from Jesus and Christ and you know, and you know the Resurrection, but they nobody really talks about what happens to us our souls when we when we go, you know, it's all so Yes, that's a very different sort of Lockdown sort of faith in if you're like yeah, but hey, how I mean that a lot I don't like to knock people who do have a faith because most of them are really lovely people You know, I mean there's been times I've gone into churches since you know, and I've seen well They're really good, you know, they're really good kind-hearted souls and giving but if only they would just you know If only I could just walk in and just do one talk to them all and in the congregation And just chat not to try and convert them or anything like that because that's definitely not not what I'm about You know, I don't want to convert anybody. You know, I just I just want to talk about what I saw and what I Experienced because it's such a beautiful thing that awaits us all you know that I feel and can only help us overcome this stigma of the idea of death You know one of the cool things that I think the Brits do have is this the spiritualist church tradition and we have it here in the US, but it's like way Very very small and not talked about much and you stumble into a spiritualist church Early on before the end of E right, don't you go there for that's right? Yeah Yeah, I was because I was traveling up to see my sister She'd invited me up for for the weekend and I was on the train and I bumped into an elderly couple So opposite me and we got chatting They would want it to know where the next station was and things and then this lady turned around to me And said look, we're going to see a medium and I went oh, okay, and I just didn't want to get involved in the conversation I was kind of like was in my own at that point I just wanted to like just be myself, but she kept coming back and chatting to me and She said she handed me a flyer like a small poster. She got off the train with the details for this thing on So I thought okay so I just put it in my pocket and forgot all about it and I remember getting to my sisters and The family were all doing their own thing and my sister was cooking and stuff So I thought do you know what? I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go to this thing and see what it's about So I went and it was packed. It was like a small church and And I sat down and everyone was going there trying to get messages from loved ones who just passed over, you know And so it was all things like yeah, I'm picking up your grandfather. He's got a watch here Is that right and people it was amazing. They were like bang on, you know And I've got no reason to go at all. I wasn't looking for a message, but she turned around this medium He's very animated. She just stopped and she went man in the blue jumper. I've got a message for you And I went okay, and she said your life is about to change. They're telling me it's about to change It's gonna be big be ready for it And I said oh in what ways are gonna change? I thinking wow, you know Is this there's the money gonna start coming in there? You know is it all these different things? She said they're not telling me But you'll be protected and that was it and so I went off thinking that you know at that point I was Looking for a relationship to start with somebody and it never never came into the talk nothing None of those things happened, but then I realized that after my NDE that's what it was about That's what that message was before so I was keen to try and find that church again Because I thought those people will probably want to hear about it You know and they did as soon as I walked in there and found it. They just wanted to Hear that, you know, they took it straight on. It's like they knew about it again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah near death experience. Yeah, we've heard of those They had heard about yours David because it was all over the news there, right? Um, everyone rides the train everyone that's their worst fear I know I couldn't believe it. You know, I was lying in hospital, you know And my my surgeon was coming in each day and he was going You're in the guardians today. You're in, you know, you're in the times and I was going what? And then then the tv guys wanted to come and interview me and like, you know, it all got like really crazy You know and and I thought I found it so amusing because I was It was keeping me going. It was really enjoyable that I was in this hospital room, you know Unable to move but I think and this is brilliant, you know so yeah The spiritualist church thing I mean like that's the stuff I'm so interested in and and you are too and you go back to them and you have some amazing healing Experiences and I'm going to show people one of the quotes I had from the book and I'm going to put it up on the screen If anyone's watching they can see this amazing artwork that you've done And again, keep in mind when people go and look at this. This is something you never had any inclination For no experience no training in and you come out and you start doing these large pieces that just One in a million Could could kind of produce this stuff. But here's the quote. I thought this was amazing from You can tell me who it's from but it was a woman who did a healing session for you at the spiritualist church It's essential to understand that spirit doesn't show up here except through us Ultimately it must come through us to manifest in the world. That's why it's so easy for us to create Hell in this life Terrible things are happening right now everywhere around us. But hell exists here on earth Only because people are still working out the hell within themselves Talk for a minute about this healing session and if you want to about that quote Yeah, well joy is the healer and she's amazing because A lot of the stuff that she told me like for example that she would also tell me afterwards that that came through by spirit Because I would be in the healing session. It's a really beautiful peaceful place It's almost like a meditative state and you're sat there And it's kind of like a hands-on healing just not starting or you know, your shoulders working around your body And the healers they they're like guides. They're sort of like Sorry, they're not guides They draw into their guides and their guides send through the healing energy through their hands and through In her meditative form as well So she was picking up an awful lot of stuff and it's like it's almost like Transmissions from the other side all these messages. So it's like really profound and which is really incredible because When I speak to her say just before it says and she didn't come across as like a Very profound person So you could tell that a lot of it was definitely coming from somewhere else And so I learned an awful lot from her because I learned an awful lot about And it all tied in with my near-death experience as well because I what I'd learned From the experience all made sense. So it's kind of like there was almost like these kind of like moments of affirmation but also Making me go. Oh, yeah, that's what happened there. That's why that happened. So You know, I mean, I maybe I should talk you through the near-death experience itself and chat about what happened there It might help to explain a bit more. Sure. Please do David. Where do you think? Yeah, well I mean, basically what what happened to me was I was it was at the points I'd where the paramedics had rushed me into hospital from Picking me up off the rail track and and we had arrived in the hospital I remember seeing like there was a whole team of you know surgeons and doctors and nurses all waiting for me Looked like this big semi-circle and in I went And they were rushing around I was losing copious amounts of blood at that point and they were running around just trying to save me And I remember my family had come in as well. They were there so quick and I remember they were all chatting around in my family And they were my mother was in tears, you know, everyone was totally distressed. So it was a very stressful scenario And then I suddenly went from that place to a really beautiful sort of Like I thought it was a darkened room at first. It was like a really comforting place It felt like a darkened room But and I was just lay there and I suddenly all the pain had gone all the noise overload and sand overload had disappeared And I was just this silence and then there was these beautiful orbs that were like kind of like pulsating all around me all different colors like ambas and greens and yellows and I thought wow, this is amazing and um I just laid my head back and I realized I was laid on what was like a huge sort of slate rock if you like It was almost like a like an altar. It was like a medieval altar or something, you know And but it felt very comfortable to be laid on this here in your nde But what was your vantage point? How are you looking at it? Yeah, yeah, I was in my body because that was one of the first things that I did was I realized where I was I suddenly looked at my body to see how it was looking And all the wounds healed. I could just see I was just covering in like a blue cloth So there's no clothing on me. There's just like this blue beautiful sort of satin sort of sheet that was like really cool, but comforting And I looked down and and my everything all the cuts and bruises and rips and everything It healed, you know, my left arm had been severed in in the accidents and that was that was still back in place So I definitely felt like like I was in my body And so it was like me in in another in this Dimension which I believed was actually that I died. I thought this is it I passed on this is That's over here. I am in the next phase, but I I had no sense to fear or anguish about it I actually felt so comfortable there that I I accepted it readily But it was at that point that I felt there was a presence with me, you know And you know, you sense someone's just behind you or have you think you look, you know But this wasn't behind me It was it was like an androgynous being a beautiful being this was stood at my right feet and just staring at me And the odd thing is this being I call it like a being of light because it was like had this beautiful blonde white hair But the skin was like sort of like glowing and the expression on on The being's face was like Like it's beautiful. It was like on like a knowing smile Like like I've known this person throughout my whole life or in fact beyond that, you know It was like a soulmate, I guess and I felt that I was being cared for and protected And I thought well, this is really quite amazing. So I just kind of laid my head back And then I looked up and I saw like three grids of pure white light above me And and I remember lying there looking into that light and I just couldn't take my gaze away Normally it'd be the kind of bright white light that you wouldn't be able to look into like an erected fluorescent strip or the sunlight even, you know But I kept looking at this and it just felt like it was healing me and I felt all this energy coming from that light And I just thought this is really beautiful and then I suddenly then was aware of two other beings Either side of me and two female form one of them was white cohesion I guess and the other one was Asian American Indian And and they were they they had their hands kind of like hovering very slowly over my body And I felt this sensation that they were healing me. It was almost like a form of uh, Reiki or spiritual healing in fact, which I've never had obviously until that point, you know and But the energy that was coming from all three of these beings was just like pure love. It was just like this energy of I don't like a compressed love of all the different types of love You experience in your life, whether it's from through your lover or your mother your father or even your pet cat like you've got And it's all those types of love all condensed and that it was just amazing and like It it was like a form of love that was just like I could feel it running through me through my whole throughout my whole being and it was I felt at that point that I was being prepared almost for something. I thought Some what are they doing? What's going on here? And I felt like I must be Getting ready to go on to the next stage of something, you know, and and then I am Suddenly thought about my family because as I said earlier, I knew that they were all frantically sort of looking over me in the hospital In the in the emergency department. So I thought I wonder how they're doing And so I kind of figured I if I looked over the edge of this kind of like huge rocks that I would see them But I didn't see them But what I did see was this most amazing sight It was like a it was like a huge waterfall of stars that was curving ran in a huge curve And all these stars were just like cascading down and they were just sparkling into this beautiful sort of like Sort of this, you know, like this and I looked down and it seemed to they seem to be disappearing into other galaxies and other Dimensions and it was just so spectacular and then there were beautiful colors As I looked down further and and it's quite interesting because some of the I've been Hubble have been putting up all these photographs quite recently New parts of the universe they've never seen before and it's amazing because That it's almost like what it's what I saw In my NDE, which is amazing because I also started painting what I saw in my NDE and I've had I had friends phoning me up Two of them this week said have you seen the new Hubble things? It's your paintings on again. I know It's incredible So anyhow, sorry, I digress there But I just had to put that in because it was just Again a moment of affirmation But there's so many there's so many jumping off points there that It's tough because and that's where I guess the I don't want to use the term science and kind of take people in the wrong direction But to try and organize what you're saying. There's so many different parts that I don't quite know where to begin one would be tying back to the synchronicity of Needing somebody on the train them handing you a brochure you having no interest in it But you go I mean that's strange you being picked out of the crowd and being given a message that's strange the message you're given is just It's just too crazy to almost believe it sounds like a made-up story, you know Your life is going to change But you're going to be okay. You're protected And then you you go through this incredible life changing experience That should kill you by all accounts. Yeah, and you're protected. What is what is your understanding at this point? And you talk about this in the book, but let's talk about it here What's your understanding of Fate of our life being predetermined Free will all those things are there there's somewhat Irreconcilable even within your story, but how are you understanding some of those things now? Well, since all this has happened my take on it is is that we have it's like our Lives are predestined probably before we're actually born into this world And the way I see it's almost like it's like a highway And that's that's our that's our map our roadmap, you know And we're all tempted to take routes off that highway that we think that's going to be the road That's going to lead us to freedom and happiness and you know all all the riches we want But we go down those roads and then they are not the ones for us And I took too many of those roads. I think on my journey and My take on it is is I feel that I'd hit such a low point in my life You know, it was like the dark night of the soul if you like that I've gone in so deep That the only way I was going to come out of this was for something very dramatic to happen Like that train accident and that everything was predestined to lead me towards that point Hold on though David because don't you see I mean there's kind of an implicit contradiction what you just said Number one, we need to understand what those deep dark things are I don't know you must know some really horrible things because it doesn't sound like it from all accounts other than Playing in a punk rock band, which I don't even know if there's anything wrong with that But I don't know maybe you do have some really maybe you're doing satanic stuff in the basement or something I don't know No, no, why is there the need for redemption if you're on your path? Why does the path need to change? Why does the healing need to take place? Why are they doing anything? That would be the question right like if it all is just an experience. Why do anything? Why does the native american Asian Person have to get together and do some heavy-duty reiki on you to put you back. Why why why? Because because I was destroying myself. I wasn't I wasn't doing any dark sort of stuff. It was just The darkness was just um my depression. I was drinking too much I was drinking heavily and that was just taking me right down and you know I was beating myself up big time and so it was just What i'm trying to say is is that that they felt right. Okay He's not a bad guy. This guy needs to be pulled out of this Mess that he's got himself into and it was just pulling me out of that and and bringing me back onto the track that I That was meant for me Which I feel now i'm back on that on that highway and I follow it now You know, I'm I'm not really tempted by too many of those Those roads are saying hey come and take this road, you know, so that's what I'm trying to say So it's it's it's you know the phrase Dark night of the soul. Have you not heard that phrase? It's all there. Absolutely and I love the way you put it Let me let me read another quote from the book that gets to this And to remember that we live in a universe that offers redemption Perhaps that was the purpose of the message I think that's what you're talking about. You're talking about a redemption story But the art piece that goes with this is a very jesus looking figure With almost a ufo looking kind of thing Over his head. So talk about redemption because that's what we're talking about basically As he rightly pointed out. I wasn't really I didn't follow any Faith or Christianity or anything like that. It wasn't it wasn't at all in my life but What happened next in my NDE was when I turned over after looking at that waterfall of stars I suddenly felt there was an even more powerful energy that was that was around me And and that's when I looked and saw this huge ton of white lights coming towards me And it was just slowly coming in and this ton of white light was just like surrounded by all these kind of like Slowly circulating flames of yellows and reds and and and what have you earned? and The energy had come enough that it was like it just turned a dial at big time I could feel it like pulsating through every molecule in my body And I just straight away Thought that is that is god. That's the energy of all creation That's where it's all coming from from this tunnel of white light with all the flames It's not the the Michelangelo sort of Vatican ceiling image of god with the beard putting his hand there That is it. So for me it's I now have that I that's my faith But it's it's and that jesus Coming into the fold there that happened because when I started going for the spiritual healing sessions One of the sessions I had I was lying there and I had for no reason at all I had this image of christ The there looking at me while I was being healed and I thought nothing of it and then right at the end Joy the healer turned man and said, you know, you had christ stuck next to you there I was going what though, you know, so I thought this is just too much So I've got to paint that so that's what I painted I painted him And that's him sort of floating above the river which is near where I live And and I wanted to paint christ not in the usual form that we'd be seeing which is hanging off a cross Which is the worst part of his life. I thought let's paint him, you know, looking healthy and happy, which is how I saw him And I also wanted to give him I looked at all Halos and all all the different sort of renaissance paintings that christ is given and they're just like this little fine white circle I thought no, I want to give him this like credible halo because you know, it's a it's a powerful image And it's I incorporated some of the images that I was getting through from those healing sessions into the halo And yes, there's been quite a lot of ufo interpretations put in there But you know what it's it's okay because I want that painting to sort of Make people stop and I don't want it just to be an image of christ and oh, there's christ I want people to think about it and chat about it One of the things I think is really interesting about that and we've had this ongoing discussion about it like The christ consciousness thing to me is an undeniable part of the near-death experience in that it comes through Again and again if you go to the researchers they go hey, this is undeniable Christ seems to be coming through when we look at jesus historically. He slips through our fingers There's a good chance that he doesn't exist certainly in the form that he's portrayed In the bible and in these other things. He doesn't exist now I personally, david don't have a problem with that I am open to the idea that we do and can manifest everything but other people have a very literal historical interpretation of that I wonder if you've given that any thought and what do you think if if someone was able to Kind of lay out a bunch of biblical historical Archaeological kind of stuff and say wow, you know that jesus figure doesn't doesn't really add up What does that mean? Does that mean anything to you? Well the way I I take on it is this and that is that he was around obviously at the time of the romans and We never question for one minute that if we have a history lesson on seizo or Pontius pilot that all those guys existed and we think yeah, they existed and we see paintings of them and it's like, yeah They existed in history. We don't question it. Whereas with jesus is this kind of thing? Well, maybe he didn't exist, you know, but you know, but we do question it See, I mean if you really look into it like when you said the the history stuff Like I'll just give you a small example Like most of the history that christians go to to say that Jesus is historical Is they go to geosephus? Because geosephus was a roman historian But there's no record if jesus in there the one record we have is fake and then Josephus's writings wind up in the gospel in a very pro roman kind of Reverse engineered way. I i'm just saying historically. No, there's jesus doesn't doesn't hold up It's just like satan satan completely slips through your fingers when you go back and look at You know the very early Judaic texts of Yahweh the thunder god, there's no satan in there and then the same stories are repeated afterwards Well, maybe i'm the satan Satan has introduced well, you can't you can't take one or the other if we take your near-death experience Literally as that you were in this dimension and these things really happened Yeah, well, then we have a conflict with thousands of other near-death experiences that Look completely different I interviewed a guy dr. Gregory shushan who's done this cross-cultural analysis of near-death experiences for me and i'm a spiritual believer I look at the similarities But if you step back you can also look at the differences and say well Well, no one's right the people who just see who see jesus and believe it's jesus of this cross thing Well, they can't possibly be right because this isn't possibly right they there is conflict conflicts But if jesus didn't actually exist, let's face it christianity would have died out and faded years ago But it didn't it just stayed around and it just grew and it's just it's just you know I'm not trying to sort of like say hey, you know christianity. I'm not trying to defend christianity But i'm just trying to say that i can't imagine that it would still be around now if this guy was just a myth But david it's the opposite of that if we understand christianity the way we did like at the beginning of the show If we understand it as a social engineering mind control project, which it is I mean the catholic church look at it now. I mean, it's completely discredited in most people's minds It is not an institution that's It was the church for the longest time, right? If you go back to the beginning it was always about Controlling the people if you look at constant teen when he first establishes a church in 412 He brings in the feudal system and it turns everyone into slaves. You can no longer own property It's a control mechanism in the same way that it's being used today And then you know people who are more spiritually minded say well, don't worry about that You know look for this or look for that. Well, you can but you also have to consider the other aspects of it I mean, I don't know Well, that was of course. Yeah You have to consider the other aspects of it I mean, I mean that was one of the things I was very keen to do when I first started writing the book I spoke to my co-writer and and she's She was able to she said look, why don't you contact the hospital and find out, you know All the medications we were on at the time and how that may have affected you Whether it would be in a mind-bending drug and all those different things So we went through all that and we discovered that because she's got she's Basically she was lecturing in nursing. So she knew what she was talking about. She knew her staff. She was qualified And so we she said yeah, I've been through everything and yes, there were Drugs that you were given that that could have been hallucinated, but they were given afterwards, you know, not before you had your NDE And the other thing is as well just going back to to what you're talking about And that is that there's been studies in people who have NDE's and the difference being is you know, there's a lot of them Intense real consistency to their near-death experiences, you know, like mine stayed with me And it's as clear to me now as it was then because it was real. It wasn't like a dream. I know it wasn't a dream I know it wasn't a hallucination, you know, you know, it's it's a totally different thing whereas like people are in dream states or what have you They they they they go within minutes and not only that that, you know, when they tell the same dream again It's changed. It's like, hang on a sec. I thought you said the guy with blue hair walked in And now you're saying it's you know pink and stuff, you know, it's it's a very different thing So and I don't think that most people who have had NDE's would be bothered to sort of just be talking about it like I am now as much because It's also a thing that for me as I said earlier I don't particularly want to sort of be trying to convert people saying listen to me. This is, you know, and it's it's It's more, you know, this is what happened. This is what I saw and and it's it's This we we can't assume just because we were scientists and we've got brilliant minds And we have a lot of us have that that's it. We've nailed it. We know the answers because amp equals You know x or whatever. I mean, I'm totally with you. But but here's the rub I have with that You can't do what you said do the scientism thing which I'm rail against every week But you can't also say my experience trumps everyone else's experience You can't say because I had this experience and it's so important to me I hold that dearly and that can be the only truth and in that sense That's the advantage of looking at near-death experiences across the board Like I told you there's nothing kind of more offensive to me than fundamentalist Christians who co-opt the near-death experience for their religion and want to shut everyone else out and say All the genuine near-death experiences have Jesus and have all the rest of this And if you didn't have those then your experience is somehow lesser or some To me, I I don't know how you get there So what i'm interested in doing is climbing on top of those experiences letting loose of them a little bit and seeing that Okay, you had a realer than real experience that I accept from my research Is closer to the ultimate reality than this bullshit we're talking about here But I would suggest to you that it's possible that that that experience is still an abstraction of a more Ultimate reality, you know and that in that realm you're still that's the only way I can explain it that you're still interpreting and You know creating a reality in that extended reality Do you think that has any possibility being true or do you think where you were is the ultimate reality? Yeah, it was the ultimate reality. I know that to be the case. There's nothing else. There's nothing else beyond that It's I've never I've never questioned that it where I was wasn't Was you know some kind of dream or state it was it was real But the other thing you say I think as well is is that we can do all the science in the world we can but there's you know We don't understand the soul. We don't understand You know, those scientists can turn man and actually come up with an equation as to Why we feel love, you know and what brings two souls together to collide and fall in love, you know And it's it's the same thing. I mean the soul is such a powerful thing and my take on it now is is that That Death is not the end that the soul lives on. Yes. Yes, the actual body that we're walking around in that that decays and that dies off But our souls live on and where they go to i'm not sure But I just know that that the soul lives on and that's exactly where The state that I was I feel lucky enough to have been into to have A look into that and say right. This is what happens next our souls live on and of course every account that you say that you've Interviewed with other people's bank has varied. I'm aware of that because Since my near-death experience it was one of the first things I wanted to do was to like so look around You know, I went straight on to the internet as soon as I could to find that when I got home to say right Let's have a look into this One of the best ones I saw actually was from it was a young child I think she must have been about five years old and she'd had a near-death experience and she painted it and it was unbelievable because it was It was just like a matchstick sort of version of my painting that you put a barrier There was like a her lying on the square. Well lying on the square table actually But she got three different individual people with our hands out with like these stick hands going over her body Then it's square, which is like a blue square over her body, which is the clearly the blue cloth And then it looked like what was like an ice cream cone sort of like flying through the sky towards her and I thought wow And that stayed really because that blew me away because I just thought there you go It's like that she she went and her her soul Passed over onto the side, but she she came back, you know, so it's I've interviewed people David who've had multiple near-death Experiences and they've said that they've gone deeper and subsequent ones and that they're the reality that they were at Gave way to a deeper reality And then a deeper reality beyond that and they even speculate that there's almost no end to how deep Or how high because it's all moving towards the light Moving towards guide moving towards love How does that strike you? Yes, I do because as I said to you I felt like I was being prepared for something to go on to another stage And which I didn't do but I've realized now since my end either a lot of My teachings are still coming through now. It's almost like they sent me back and it's kind of okay So I'm back here now, but I didn't suddenly feel like oh man. I don't want to be back here You know I straight away. I was thinking right I want what's my purpose why they sent me back and I'm still sort of searching for those answers and so I feel like I'm still getting teachings Thankfully through through the likes of joy and through the healing but not only that I've also learned to channel with my guides to communicate with them and they've helped me do those paintings They've helped me have the confidence to actually say I'm going to write a piece of music for an orchestra And and not only that that very first piece of music that I wrote and was performed by an orchestra Sold out the concert sold out two weeks in advance Which was for the orchestra itself were unheard of they were really couldn't believe it And I mean in all fairness. It was the media build up, you know, it was good You know the local bbc tv guys came down and stuff But but I felt again that I was being held. I felt like these guides from the other side I still felt like I was attacked like it like there was a cord that was still Pulling me back up there, you know, and they were helping me and they helped all that come together and for it to be A really wonderful event and a pat out audience, you know, the atmosphere was just so beautiful in there that line. It was just like Yeah, you know, I just feel like they're there with me and they're still That I was sent back here to continue with the work here But I also get it that other people because obviously I've read about other people's nds that they do go to different dimensions And they they get all sorts of Teachings, you know, they're educated further through those The deeper sort of dimensions that they go into. So yeah, I believe that that that is it We don't you know, I we don't just hit the stage where I'm at. I went to and that's it The you know, it'll be different dimensions That's awesome, David And I think that is consistent with your story and with your life and you mentioned that pretty early on I mean, I think one of the ways that we can judge The veracity of these stories is by looking at the people And your life is a testament to your story and what you've learned not so much like a Preachy thing because you're not a preachy guy. It's more a testament to Real spiritual transformation. So this book of yours shine on it's gotten some great press You've got a great publisher who's really behind it. How's that all going for you? And where do you go after this? Are you going to write another book or I guess you're open to being led Wherever you'd be wherever you're led, huh? You've just said that. Yeah, exactly It's uh at the moment it is being led a bit like that concert I feel like they're there with me the energies really helping me and lifting me along and you know, we're getting Getting into talks to people, you know like yourself, which is great And it's like it's getting me out there and it's getting the message more global now I'm just sitting down doing these interviews And um and the energy of the book feels great in terms of you know being helped with this promotion, which is fantastic And I I'm not really thinking beyond This stage at the moment, you know, the book's coming out in june So I'm just kind of all just putting all my energies towards getting that and hoping that I can Get it to you know to stay afloat and then go out to see Happily and then I can think about what comes next, but as you said, yeah, I'll be guided You know, I know I'm actually writing a new piece of music at the moment So that's been going on for a while Which is called I wasn't expecting this and so that's coming together really nicely So I know that that will probably be the next stage because I want to keep the the music and the artwork coming. I mean, so that's it all it all carries on It's just like a continuous it's like a little industry Well, it's awesome. It's it's it's a pretty high order Industry, so that's It's been awesome getting to know you and thanks for joining me. Good. Best of luck with all this work Thank you so much. It's been great chatting with you. Alex. It's really great questions Thanks again to David Ditchfield for joining me today on skeptico I have a level three kind of question to tee up for you Is there something beyond the Christian near-death experience and if there is something beyond it Then can it really be called a Christian near-death experience? I think you understand what I'm getting at especially if you listen to a lot of these shows I've kind of found it on this topic a lot, but I'd love to hear your thoughts about it Drop me a note or come over and join others on the skeptical forum. Tell me what you think I'm delighted to see that a few of you are doing that I wish even more of you would but if you for some reason you don't or you can't Know that you're still part of this conversation Just by listening to it and giving us the opportunity connect in this magic way that is podcasting So thanks for listening. I have some I just think the really good show is coming up I hope you'll stick with me for all of that until next time. Take care and bye for now