 So good morning everybody, welcome to our fifth week of class. I hope these sessions, this very topic and course on counseling, Christian counseling is not just helping you understand a lot about who you are but also how to deal with people, I think certain changes in the way that we see others and we view others. Shall we start with the word of prayer? Heavenly Father, we thank you this morning for bringing each one of us here. We thank you that you've given us a beautiful day just to speak of your goodness and your glory. Thank you for things you have entrusted us to do each one something for your purpose. Lord, we pray that we will fulfill all that you want us to carry out. Lord, even as we get into another part of learning today, we pray that your Holy Spirit will reveal truths to us about ourselves, about our beliefs, about understanding others as we help them through this ministry. Lord, we pray that you will be here with us, counseling us, guiding us, convicting us at all times. I pray for those who have not been able to join us yet. Lord, I ask God that your presence be sufficient. I thank you for all the e-learning students who tune in to these messages, to these lectures. I pray for your hand of blessing over each one listening, over each one studying. Thank you, Heavenly Father, in Jesus' name. Amen. Okay, so let's have a quick recap about what we did last week. I know when I say recap, a lot of people just say, oh no, okay, is she going to call out my name? Well, I don't like calling out names, but maybe would have. You know, someone just quickly give us a recap about what you remember we learned last time. We learned about the counseling relationship and certain attitudes that we need. We spoke about three core attitudes that we need to develop as we work with people. So it's just not within counseling, but like I think Mangi was the one who said it, that it should be like a lifestyle. So what are the three? Empathy. Okay, thank you. Tenderness. Yes. Third one, I'm not sure, but was it compassion? It was unconditional positive regard. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, right. Okay, so three main attributes that we need to have as we work with people. All right. Any other thoughts of what really, did anybody use this in their interactions with others through this week? And saw a difference in the way that you felt about them or they responded to you? Anybody tried anything out? It could have been with your family also showing empathy, unconditional positive regard or genuineness. No? Nobody? Chaya. Yes. Chaya, would you like to share something? Anything that you did with someone and how that either impacted them or impacted you? Faster it impacted me more than that person, but I could see the little difference in that person also. Okay. I use this one and it was really, I got the responses. Okay. Thank you, Chaya. Thank you for sharing that. That's a nice, right? Yeah. Anybody else? Anybody else? Okay. All right. So this is actually, what do I say? I think a request or a recommendation that you keep thinking about these things and probably these attributes don't come in a day. They come as you keep practicing it and in any relationship just learning how to practice it is very, very helpful in the way that you refine yourself as a compassionate helper, as a compassionate minister. So these skills and I believe these are skills, some of these are skills that we spoke about, you know, genuineness and unconditional positive regard is not a skill. It should be an attitude. It should be a change in the way that we see people not through eyes of judgment or through eyes of prejudice or bias, but with who God made them to be. Okay. Continue doing that even as, you know, as we keep going in classes and from here on, there's going to be a lot of, you know, if we were in offline classes, there would have been half the classes all about practice and learning how to respond. And so we had a lot of, I think Abinas, Abinas, I think you were there in my last class. I think a part of it, weren't you? Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So so Abinas will tell you that, you know, we had role plays and things like that because that's what really actually, you know, puts you on a spot but but helps you maybe we'll do some of that, you know, just for learning so that we could all get better at it. Okay. So today we're going to. Yes, Christopher, you have something to say. Yes. Faster. I just wanted to, I guess, get some a little more clarity or guidance on, on this impact, empathetic, empathetic, understanding. Yes. So, you know, it sometimes it is closely related to, and you mentioned in the notes also, you know, sympathizing with someone. And trying to, you know, provide that level of, you know, giving, I mean, providing words that, you know, that, that portray that, you know, your sympathize with the person. And sometimes those, sometimes those words also are viewed by that person, particularly when it, you know, you kind of repeat these words on multiple occasions. You know, the empathy sort of words. It sometimes is viewed as you know, like yourself, you know, you're being the patient as a person. And so I just wanted to find out what is the best approach to use. Because sometimes during, you know, sometimes interacting with certain people, you know, certain people who want that level of who actually want sympathy actually. They don't, they don't really want, you know, they really don't want empathy with empathy, but they, they started getting used to that, you know, coming from, from, from a person who's, you know, the other person. So the, you know, I'm just trying to get some guidance on, you know, empathy, sympathy, sympathy, and, you know, this kind of suddenly going to the level of, or that line crossing the line into, you know, sort of being viewed as someone who's patronizing the person. Hmm. So I think one of the things that when, when we use empathy, we are, we are from the premise of the understanding that empathy is what empowers, but sympathy actually creates a sense, you know, a feeling of being victimized. And this is through the eyes of a counsellor, maybe not through the eyes of the counsellor. So there may be a person, like you said, would like that place where they, they want sympathy. Now, what does sympathy create? Sympathy creates a sense of pity, and it enhances that for the counsellor. Like, for example, you're saying, oh, you poor thing. You know, I just don't know how you're going to get out of this. You know, I wish you weren't. It's a, from a counsellor's point of view, it's a very standoffish way of relating. And it's, it's, it's something that comes across as, hey, you know, I'm better off than you in this situation, but I'm feeling really sorry for you. And, you know, I just hope things work better. Now, a person, you're right, a counsellor may be so lost in that pattern of pity and feeling victimized that they feel empowered being there. All right. But as a counsellor, you know that that doesn't bring about any growth. They have stayed stagnant in that place because of self-pity, because they sabotage themselves into feeling that this is the way things are. I, you know, poor me, and I will live with all of this. And this is how, you know, destiny is, or this is how God wants me to be. So it, they put themselves in a place of a full stop at a place of a period. And that's what as a counsellor, you see that that is a negative pattern, self-pity, sympathy, and hence, spitty. And as a counsellor, you, you, you want to turn that for them and help them and to gently show them that the place that they are in. So, so often what you would hear people says, you know, it's okay, don't give me all that feeling kind of a thing. I know I'm in this, there's nothing I can do about it. You know, so there's nothing that I can actually do about it. Right. So that's, that's, that's where that you see that they are calling for sympathy. Now you understand that when someone is looking for sympathy. We kind of infer that they seem to be very comfortable in the place that they are in. Okay, they're probably getting some things met, maybe it's attention, maybe it is focus, maybe it is people's, you know, attention towards them. But in the long run, you do see that that's not helpful for them. So you engage them in a place where you make them or you show them that perspective. That, you know, where, what kind of place that they are in there a place they are in a place of self-pity, they're in a place of victimization, but they have some ability and power to come out from there. If they would choose to allow somebody to support and help and understand them. Often they have closed themselves, they have walled themselves because they fear trusting somebody. And that's what you usually see. But slowly when they begin to trust the individual, they will, they will be open to the idea of shedding that feelings of, you know, I'm a victim or, or this is what I'm bound to be in. But are open to see something else when the counselor actually demonstrates empathy. I hope I answered your question, Christopher. I completely understand. And I mean, just something to some, I mean, a point to note is that, you know, in a typical professional counseling session, even if it is, you know, secular or Christian, I think it's, it's, it's, it works much better. But I'm, I'm talking about, you know, so for example, if it's a friend or a family member or someone who, you know, it's, it's not, it's not a very, it's not a professional one, but someone who where you have your, your built relationship and they come seeking for, you know, for counseling, but it's, they're, they're actually seeking for more that, you know, the sympathy kind of counseling. I think it's more difficult to, to manage and maybe there's a point where, you know, one can help and then, you know, it doesn't really go beyond that, you know. But I think even when you are, let's say it's a family member to help them see that the place that they are in is not really helping them that being in a place of pity or they don't see it as pity. They may see it as sympathy, but then what you're doing is you're actually feeding into something that you want them to come out of. So not really engaging in that is what I'd say, but you take your stance of empathy and they may accept it or not, but you do see that that's not going to really propel them into growth. It's going to push them back into a place of, you know, self-indulgence because they're getting something out from there of being in that place of pity. So even if it is a personal relationship, it's something that you may be able to see that they're not in a good place and helping them realize that, that this place of sympathy or seeking that sense of, you know, that image of being a poor thing or image of being a victim is not where they should be called, is not what they should be at and that you wouldn't feed into that. So, and yeah, that has to be done very sensitively and very carefully. I completely agree. When especially when you are in an emotional relationship, it's really hard to do that. However, when you have a view that it doesn't help, you may find ways to communicate that to the person. Okay. All right, we'll move forward. Okay. So today we're going to be looking at the counseling process and I'm on page 18 of the of the notes and you all could keep that open. And we could follow that. I'm also going to be sharing my presentation because I think it really helps because we're going to have a lot of examples that we are going to look at. So that will help in this. So just give me a minute. I'm just going to share my screen. Okay. I think you're able to see it. Okay. So, so we looked at what we're doing is looking at the entire counseling relationship. We're looking at the counseling process. So today we're going to start in figuring out what happens in the process of counseling. What are you doing there? And next week we're going to get into the stages of counseling. What really happens during counseling and after that we get into the skills. So like we spoke about the counseling process should be a process of change. You're hoping to move the council, the council leaf from one place into into another. You're, you're, you're doing that in order to help work out a problem or a situation that they would have come come through. And we start that by first of all, like we said, by building that therapeutic relationship. And in that therapeutic relationship, one of the attitudes of the counselor is of huge importance. And that's what we looked at the last time. Now, these three attitudes we spoke about is not just something that you display in your first meeting, but this is something that you display throughout. And in fact, all of what we are learning, remember, they don't follow us may not always follow a sequence. Okay, but they, they are something that needs to be interwoven, especially things like skills and attitudes and, and the relationship and rapport is all something that is interwoven into the process of counseling. Okay, so we looked at what the role of a counselor is. We said that the counselor is a facilitator. A counselor is one who is able to understand what the situations is and what are the emotions that that are associated with the with the situation. And the counselor is also someone who begins and helps the counselor to start some form of an action. When the counselor comes to you, you help them to explore what the problem is understand what the issue is and help initiate them into taking some kind of a positive action. And it is done by the counselor equipping the counseling to help, help the other. Okay. Now, you remember, we, we started off with this, we started off with this example at the first time. Remember, I mean, this is the first thing and I said, keep those notes and we will come back to it. Okay. And I know some of you have written it down and I don't know if you have that copy of what you've written. If not, I want you to attempt this again. Okay. Now, what would you say now this should be in first person don't say, you know, this is what I will ask Susan, this is what I will do. Tell me, like I said, I am Susan, tell me what you're going to tell me. Okay. So I remember some of the things were, you know, what's wrong with your husband or why are you feeling this way or, you know, divorce is, you know, you've got to pray about about the second thoughts. There were, there were many things and all of those are, are examples of responses. So I want you to write up a response that is in first person. Okay. So quickly, if you already haven't done so and if you don't have it in your notes already. I'd like you to quickly write up. What are you going to say and if you could put it on the chat, I will read it out. And then I'd like to go to the next slide so quickly reading out so what Susan says is I don't know what's wrong with my husband he doesn't allow me enough space to just be me. He wants to pry into what I'm doing who I'm talking to I'm having quite enough. I have second thoughts about my marriage. Okay. So quickly I'd like everybody 30 people on the call 32 to quickly in first person put down what how is it that you will respond remember this is a learning. Okay. So don't worry about am I right am I wrong is this wrong. I mean, don't worry about it just put down what is it that you will tell Susan Susan sitting I'm Susan I'm sitting right in front of you and you have to give me a response so quickly put that down. Okay. That's not waste time. And maybe I'll read out some responses and then I want to go on to the next slide to to help understand that. Okay. So I need I need. Okay. One one responses what happens Susan. What makes you feel like that. Okay. I want to I want to see more more. Where have you where have you lost your trust or love. Okay. Just two out of 32. Come on. 30 30. If you if you want to unmute and speak you can go ahead. Okay. Susan, please tell me more about yourself. Okay. I'm trying to understand what you're feeling. Tell me more. Okay. Keep going. Keep going. I'm listening. Okay. Second thoughts. Okay. So what are your second thoughts. Okay. Susan, don't worry. I'm here to help you. Okay. Come on. There are so many more of you. I'm waiting. Just allow Susan. Okay. What will you tell her? What are you going to tell her? Maybe don't give me what you're going to do. What are you going to tell her? How are you going to get her to speak more? What are you going to say? Come on. At least two, three more. I'm looking for two, three more. If you want to unmute and just share, that's also fine. Please give more details about this. I'm here. Okay. Susan, I understand your concern, but let's, but let's understand the real issue. Hi, Susan. I'm so sorry that there are things going the way you hope. Things are not going the way you hope for in your marriage. There is always a way to work things out through the fact that you're here and are sharing this with me shows that you want to work this out. Let's start. Okay. Susan, thanks for sharing. Okay. Okay. All right. Okay. Good. Good. Good. Susan, it's very stifling when we are pride upon constantly. Okay. All right. Okay. So I'm, I'm going to go. I don't know if there are going to be more responses. That's, that's good. Okay. So I'd like you to rate your response. Do you think it's effect ineffective, somewhat effective or effective? So I think I've, I've read out a few. So let me ask those who have. So I think Kennedy. Anita, you started. What happened, Susan? What makes you feel like, like this? Where do you rate your response, Anita? Okay. Samuel says his is somewhat effective. Some, somewhat effective. Prabhakar, you've written marriage is honorable among all divorce is not a solution. Yes, there are problems, but it can be sorted out. Okay. So everyone, okay. Anita says hers was effective. Prabhakar says somewhat effective. It's always best to be neutral. No. Don't be here. Don't be there. Just be in the center. Okay. Somewhat effective. Okay. All right. Okay. Um, Susan. Okay. Someone said, uh, I think, uh, I would like to help you transcend the situation to where you would like to be. Tell me more. Okay. Shay. The confidence says it's effective. Okay. That's good. All right. Okay. Good. All right. So, um, Let's, let's look at common responses that, that we, we see. Okay. So you will have, uh, and some of this may be what, you know, very close to what you all have written. Some maybe not. Okay. But here are some common responses. What has made you feel this way? So quickly retort with a question. Okay. And find that out. Or what, why do you quarrel like that? You must be patient with him and love him. Okay. So that's more like, uh, I would, what would you see it as? Do you see it as, uh, Well, what would you see that second one? Why do you quarrel like that? You must be patient with him and love him. You must be patient with him and love him. You must be patient with him and love him. You must be patient with that response. How would you see the response? Is it, uh, Ineffective. An ineffective response. Okay. So probably because there is a lot of judgment on that response. Right. Or the third one says, tell me, were you really in love when you got married? Okay. Someone said a parental response for the second one. Okay. So tell me why you really in love when you got married. What kind of a response do you think that sounds like? This is in between. Okay. All right. Maybe you should try other ways like making his favorite dish to please him. Okay. So I think some of you will have written it as ineffective. Okay. Or you're saying that your marriage is not going well and your relationship with your husband has deteriorated. He does not seem to appreciate anything you do. You're doing the best, you know, but without success in satisfying him. So what would this be? Okay. So some of you have written this as an effective and last one you feel hurt because your husband is disappointed in you. What about the last one? What do you think of that? Effective. Effective. Okay. So what in these responses do does make you sense that something is effective or not effective. So you do see some classes of responses that help you that are just being interrogated. That is, you just want to know more. All right. And what do those responses demonstrate is that, hey, I just want to hear what is going on. All right. I'm not demonstrating that. Hey, I'm concerned about what you are going through or what all of this means to you. It does not get demonstrated. Those questions when you ask questions. Okay. Like tell me were you really in love with him or what happened or, you know, how long has this been going on? These are good. The questions are good in itself. But like I say, they have a timing and they have a place. Okay. When Susan comes to you initially what she is looking for, what do you think Susan's looking for? She's looking for a place where she can bear her heart out. And there is someone who is there willing to listen and willing to understand. So when we make certain judgments, like maybe you should try other ways, like making his favorite dish to please him, making a judgment, or you're making a recommendation, or you're probably giving some scripture and say, you know, this is what scripture is talking about. That's the focus that there is. All true. I agree it is all true, but they have a place. They have a place and a time to when some things are spoken about. What makes it effective is when you have reached or entered into the world of the counseling. So the fifth response here, if you look at it, it's a paraphrase of what the person has said. And that makes it somewhat effective because you are paraphrasing what is going on, but you have not made an inference about what they're feeling. Whereas the sixth one, it's a very short one, but there are very two important things that the counselor here has enlisted out. They have bought about the feeling and they have bought about a little bit more about the meaning of that entire problem of the husband. So you said because your husband, it seems like your husband, you feel hurt because your husband is disappointed in you. So what makes it effective is when you are able to move into a place of bringing about change. So we're going to talk about this and what we specifically going to look about is an understanding called the frame of a reference. How do you bring about a frame of reference? So when a counselor comes for help, she has to change something in herself to solve it. Now this probably can be a change of attitude, a change of the way that she looks at herself, the way that she looks at others or certain habits, or even maybe in general, some kind of a behavior. So there is no solution to a problem without a personal change in the counseling. So how does the counselor facilitate or bring about this change? Now this is called through a learning process. Okay. And this is what we are going to be looking at next week. It's the stages of counseling or the learning process and the EUA that you see on the slide is exploration, understanding and action. And we will come to this in detail next week. So don't worry about this. Okay. Just follow through what I'm saying. So this change comes about through a process of learning which consists of self-understanding. Sorry, self-exploration, E, understanding the problem and moving into action. So this understanding is what, sorry, the exploration is what leads to understanding which leads to action. You remember I gave you all an example of if you have a new phone or a new device that you do not know, what you would do is you first explore it. You click around the buttons. You click on around the screen. You figure out what all is there. You're exploring it in order to understand it. And when you understand it, that's when you're okay. Okay. This is the way that you make a call. Right. So similarly, this is how it can be explained. You look at identifying and exploring everything that may be going on within the counseling so that they can understand what is happening. Where is it that there is a fault or where there is a deficit or where there is an issue. And then once they understand, they put their hands into working on an action. So that's what the process is called is the exploration, understanding and action. And it is your attitude, what we spoke about last time, the empathy, the positive regard and the genuineness that is displayed through the counseling that brings about this kind of a learning process. So I've just put that up in a flow chart for us to understand. So how do you bring about change? When the attitudes in the counselor, when you have empathy, when you have those three core things, you facilitate this process of exploration, of understanding and action. So what does exploration mean? You're figuring out what's going wrong. What is understanding? You're getting insights into the problem and bringing about certain goals for change. And the action is you're working on some strategies for change. Now, how does this happen? Is by entering into the frame of a reference of the counseling. So that's what we're going to look at today and maybe the second part of the class, we're going to be looking at a model also. What do you mean by the frame of reference? Now, this process of learning EUA or the stages of counseling EUA, that's exploration, understanding, action happens when you enter into the frame of reference of a counseling. So let's look at what do we mean by this frame of reference? Now, the frame of reference is very similar to what you learned about empathy. And if you see there are many things that the similar things are there. Now, what are you doing when you empathize is that you are entering into the frame of reference. That is, you're almost getting out from your skin and getting into their skins or you're taking the perspective of the counseling and that's another way of stating the ability to understand their frame of reference. So if the counselors are to feel that you have heard them loud and clear, you need to develop the ability to walk in their shoes, get inside their skin, see the world through their eyes and at the heart of this is active listening. It is a distinction. What are you doing? The frame of reference is a distinction between you and me or between your view of yourself and my view of you. And so we will look at that a little bit. I know probably I'm playing a little bit with words, but there is a distinction. Now, for example, let's take an example. The way that we think about, let's say, I'm trying to think of something as neutral as possible. Let's say a dog. How do you think of a dog and how do I think of a dog? Now, I love dogs. So I think they are the best pets around. Someone else may think cats are the best pets and they think that dogs are too noisy. So about a dog, this is my view of the dog and that is your view of the dog. And when I enter into your frame of reference, I am leaving my understanding of what a dog is to me and getting into your skin to understand what you feel about dogs and your feeling about dogs is probably negative. So the frame of reference is leaving where you are or how you understand something and entering into the space of another. So there are two kinds of frames of reference. There is the external frame of reference and there is an internal frame of reference. Now, your view of me, that is what you think of me and what I think of you is an external frame of reference. An internal frame of reference is what I think about myself and what you think about yourself. So just get that distinction. So the internal frame of reference is the view that you have of yourself, what you think about yourself and what I think about myself are inside. They are internal perspectives or internal frames of reference. Whereas what I think of you and what you think of me are external perspectives. The skill of listening to an understanding a counsellor is based on choosing to acknowledge the difference or the separateness of you and me by getting into their internal frame of reference. So if you respond to a counsellor in ways that show accurate understanding of what they are feeling you're responding from the counsellor's frame of reference. But if you choose not to show understanding of your counsellor's perspective or lack the skill to understand that you're responding from an external frame of reference. So when we look back at those examples that Susan spoke about when we are saying your husband seems like a nice guy. I wonder what's going on. It is my perspective of the situation and I have not responded from her frame of reference. I have responded from my frame of reference. So what is it that's necessary to do? Sorry, I forgot to put that. So that's the internal frame of reference. So in counselling, what is it that you're demonstrating is you're responding in the way that shows or that says I understand your view of you. I understand or I am seeing your view of you. I'm seeing your world in the way that you are seeing it. Not in the way that I am seeing you or I am seeing myself. But then I understand it in the way that you are seeing yourself. And that's what gets demonstrated through the more that you listen and how you respond. And these are responses. It depends. Whatever your responses are is what the counsellor begins to see whether you are in a place of understanding their view or not. Now I'm just going to stop here. Is there clarity in what I said or would you like me to repeat anything? Clarity or is there anything that you'd like me to repeat? Because I'm going to go a little bit more into it but to just know that there is an external perspective, external frame of reference that is outside of you that is the way that I think about you that you think about me is external. Internal perspectives is the way that I think about myself and the way that you think about yourself. In counselling the frame of reference is when the counsellor begins to understand the counsellor's view of themselves. I hope that's clear. Since I haven't had a question I suppose that's clear. So let's move on. So what are you doing is that you need to respond from a frame of reference. So when you as a counsellor responds from an internal frame of reference it is like a three-link chain as you can see over here. Example, maybe the person is saying the counsellor is saying there is no one I can relate to at home it's like being in a foreign place the client is saying that or the counsellor is saying there is no one I can talk to at home or no one I can relate to it's like being in a foreign place. Now as a counsellor if your response is I wonder what do you think is wrong with you or what's happened with you now they are okay they are midway responses but what you would want to do is to engage them in more conversation. So this client or this counsellor has only said I can't relate to anyone at home it's like being in a very different place and the counsellor's response is something like you seem lonely and you seem lost because you really have no one to connect to at home. Now you have entered into the frame of reference put yourself in that and said okay what would it feel like if I had no one to relate at home and I was in a foreign place maybe I'd feel lost or maybe I'd feel upset or maybe I'd feel happy I don't know but I'm taking the first two I'm picking two and I say okay maybe you feel lonely you feel lost because you really have no one to connect to and then your counsellor states that's right I feel really alone and isolated even in my own home I feel like I'm an island so what does this mean you have been able to enter into that frame of reference now if you've made that mistake and they're saying okay you know I'm actually happy there they will tell you no in fact I don't feel alone I feel that I've got my space I finally got a place to rest where I don't have other people so what you're doing is you're attempting to understand their frame of reference okay let's look at as against but if a counsellor were to respond from an external frame of reference okay the counsellor said the same thing there's no one I can relate to at home this feels like a foreign place if your response is you know it's your home after all they are in strangers to you isn't it right I mean you've been living there for the last 15 years why would they be strangers to you right it looks like a question as if you know it's an exploratory question but the statement that could come come back is actually I don't even feel good at work so what happens there is a deflection you have not given the counsellor enough space to stay in the matter and rarely share what's going on at home they've deflected and they say okay I don't feel like good at work also which means the counsellor has not felt understood or it's from your external frame of reference that you said you know there are so many people at home why are they strangers to you right so the point is to be able to enter into what they are going through so an internal frame of reference what does it involve you to do is to understand the counsellor on their terms which means you're choosing to listen very carefully you're giving them enough space to tell details of their stories and those details of the stories don't just come like that understand that there are many counsellors who will give you one or two statements they'll say I'm having a very tough time at home stop they wouldn't say anything okay and what do you do so you want them to engage in a conversation but there will be some who start from the beginning will not enter the end they are much easier because they've come to really bring out but there may be some who want to but they're testing the waters okay so where you allow that space to help them tell their stories you're paying attention to those messages that they're giving you're responding to the feelings associated with the problem so if you look at the last response in that it says you feel hurt because you feel your husband is disappointed at you so you've responded to some feeling that they have not even verbalized to you but you you're sitting there in that place and say what would this make this person feel what would this make me feel does it make me feel angry does it make me feel frustrated and you respond to that like I said you may be right you may be wrong that's not that's not the matter here it is that you're attempting to understand and the more that you respond with the feeling and the councillor corroborates that you know that you are in the right place with them so what is it that involves a person's frame of reference now if you look at a councillor and a councillor you will see that the way that I've just represented here is for you to just see that the councillor and the councillor are different entities and each have their own culture their own education, their experience their expectations, their beliefs their everything and that's very personal to me and that's something that only I am fully able to understand as a person and you are able to understand as a person so what involves the frame of reference is is all of this understanding their culture, their upbringing what have been their experiences in different stages of their life, what are they hoping for what is their environment right now what is their socio-cultural context what is their religious belief all of this is what involves somebody's frame of reference these are just a few that I've put up much more so when you're saying that you're going to enter into somebody's frame of reference what you are doing is you are coming to a place of entering in and I've just given you an example of what an irrelevant or an ineffective response does and I've just kind of written in a diagram for us to understand think back about Susan and if you look at what is written in red one of the things is one of the points that we picked up from there is why do you quarrel like that you must be patient with him and love him if you see this response is from the counsellor's frame of reference this is the way that if I as a counsellor the way that I'm seeing it and I have responded from my frame of reference if you see the arrow it's responding from within my own frame of reference and that becomes an irrelevant or an ineffective response okay so what are these okay I think I'll just leave that so what makes it a relevant response is when the counsellor you see that arrow entering into the world of the counsellor and responding from there so what you're doing is you are listening you're guessing the feeling and you're communicating the understanding that you've had and you're also checking that understanding so that example of you feel hurt because your husband is disappointed in you so what it's this response brings about a feeling and a reason for the feeling okay the response is not about asking a question not about making a judgment but you're saying hey this is the way that I think you're feeling and it is because of this that you're feeling this way this is what makes a relevant response because what are you doing here is you're exploring you're helping the counsellor to explore yes am I hurt or do I feel my husband is disappointed in me and so she may say yeah absolutely or exactly okay so the counsellor entering into the frame of reference of the counsellor and responding from there makes it a relevant response okay and what happens after that once the counsellor enters into the frame of reference of the counsellor this response initiates the next action so look at the example okay it says so you feel frustrated because you can't find out what it is about you that displeases your husband so this is another response okay another internal frame of response you're getting into the internal internal frame of reference of the client so here you're saying you feel frustrated because you can't find out what about you that is that displeases your husband so the counsellor says yeah yeah exactly exactly and what are you doing next you're saying okay so would you like to find out what it is about you that displeases him right so you're saying would you like to find out what it is that displeases him or you want to find out what it is about that displeases him a helpful way maybe to explore your personality in relation to him or the way that you interact with him so what are you doing you've got the counsellor to begin to explore what how he or she behaves in relation to the other person so you've entered into the frame of reference you're helping them to explore and understand and you're getting them into a place of action but they're going to think about okay maybe and so you know this conversation can go wonderfully so it says you know the last sentence is a helpful way maybe to explore all areas of your personality in relation to him what is it that you would like to explore first or are there specific areas that you feel you need to work on so they so you know the client may immediately move on to say yeah sometimes the way that I speak to him I probably get very angry you know I snap so do you see that from from where it went to where it is taken where the counsellor begins to look more about themselves in order to bring about that change in in in their in their space of action okay so quickly I'm just going to put in some more examples so if you look at external frame of responses these are some of the things that you know you know that aren't absolutely right you know he's your husband after all oh you poor thing how are you managing now that's sympathy okay that's not empathy or you let yourself get upset far too easily or you could change all this by feeling differently or I think you're doing the right thing by not letting him step on you like that so these are all coming from the from an understanding of the council counsellor but whereas when you get into an internal frame of reference these are some of the ways that you could respond you seem upset with his behavior you feel annoyed when he doesn't allow you space you feel disappointed at the way he treats you you're worried that if this goes on your marriage can be in danger okay so these are some examples to help you to help to see how you can respond from an internal frame of reference now when you work from an internal frame of reference you can see that it initiates action there so if you look at the second part of all of this it says you seem upset with his behavior and hoping to discuss this with him right so what are you doing you're pushing the counsellor to get to the next stage or you feel annoyed when he doesn't allow you space and you're looking at ways you can let him understand your need you want to talk to him about how you can understand your need so that's the next space of action or the next one you feel upset and disappointed that the way he treats you have you considered talking to him about your feelings so that's again pushing the client into making the next stage or the last one you're worried that if this goes on your marriage can be in danger help me understand what could both of you work on to save this marriage so do you see that this is come to a place where the client themselves or the counsellor themselves has felt that you've understood what their feelings are what the problem is and you're helping them move into the next stage of action or next stage of movement into working out the problem ahead okay any questions here before we stop for a break and come back any questions okay alright we'll close for a break for 10 minutes it's 10 56 we will be back at 11 6 see you soon