 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. I am Paranjoy Gohatakurtha and today we are going to discuss a most unusual development that has revealed that there appears to be a big fight going on in the country's premier investigating agency, that is the Central Bureau of Investigation also known as the CBI. Now a report which was published on the 16th of July in the Indian Express written by Sushant Singh has pointed out how the current director, the cinemost person in the Central Bureau of Investigation, Alok Verma has written to the CBC, the Central Vigilance Commission arguing that the second most senior person in the same organization that is Rakesh Astana who is the special director should not represent the director. Never before in the history of this country has the division between the senior most person and the second most senior person in the CBI out in the open as it has at present. To discuss this issue I am very happy to welcome to the studio of NewsClick Sri Shantanu Sen. Shantanu Sen was one of the first directly recruited batch, he was in the first directly recruited batch of gazetted officers who was specially recruited for the CBI. He is an ace police officer, he worked with the CBI from 1963 to 1996 when he retired as joint director of the CBI. Now I am going to tell you more about him as we go on but first let me ask you Shantanu Sen thank you so much for giving us your time, pleasure. What do you make of this very unseemly fight that has been going on between the two senior most persons in the CBI? What I have heard and what I have read is that the director CBI is in Uruguay participating in the Interpol conference. Punta de Leste. Yes and during his tenure there which lasts about 14-15 days the CBC which controls the CBI into corruption wing and otherwise administratively also has scheduled a meeting to induct few officers in the CBI and as they have to take the approval of the director according to the CBC act they call for the director to join the conference. The director not being here they says number two can come and join. I believe the policy division of the CBI spoke to the director on telephone and his instructions were that I am the director I should have a word in this matter and therefore tell the CBC to postpone the scheduled meeting. From the 12th of July to any day after the 19th of July and that's this letter which was signed on behalf of the director CBI Mr. Alok Verma was signed by the joint director policy Mr. A. K. Sharma who according to NDTV says to be close to the Bharti Janta Party president Mr. Amit Shah I'm just quoting NDTV. I know I read that too and he may or may not be close but that is a media reading. Once you are working in the CBI your closeness to a politician really doesn't matter but the media takes it up that is why you know it was thought by the founders of the CBI which came into formation in 1963 that CBI should have a order of its own. As you know police officers who work in the states are bound to get to know the politicians and they get close to politicians. Politicians meet them curry favor with them. I'm going to ask you more about this. Therefore it was thought best to have a CBI order and that would be secluded from politicians. I had hardly any political context. Okay I'm going to come to I'm going to ask you to elaborate on this point in greater detail but before that what was unusual is that the CBC the Central Vigilance Commission was informed that several officers who were being considered for induction into the CBI were themselves under examination by the CBI as either suspects or accused individuals in various criminal cases. Now this was very very unusual and what was subsequently added that Mr. Rakesh Asthana himself was under a quote unquote scanner and I'm quoting the letter as has been published in the Indian Express that in order to maintain organizational integrity it was pointed out that Mr. Asthana cannot be consulted for inducting officers into the CBI in the absence of the director. What do you have to say? It's very unusual to even consider an officer who is facing investigation. So I would like to see this letter. I'm not too sure. You see standards of induction to CBI are very high and there is a procedure of inducting. The man's name is forwarded, his background is checked and the director CBI especially asked his units in the branches to check on the officer and if he is an scanner even without an investigation or without an inquiry but in the scanner he is ruled out. Okay. So how was he considered? How are these officers being considered? Is it correct? I don't know. You will recall that it was in November of sorry October of 2017 that a petition was moved in the Supreme Court by an organization called Common Cause and in all fairness I say it's a disclaimer. I'm a member of the governing council of Common Cause. Now Common Cause its petition was it was Common Cause was represented by Prashant Bhushan the advocate. Now what was at that point of time Rakesh Asthana's appointment as special director was challenged and this was rejected by the Supreme Court said everything is in order but let me just give you a little little background. Mr Asthana has held a number of important positions in his career. You have worked with him. He was Inspector General of Police Vadodara. He was Joint Commissioner of Police. He was SP when I was a joint director of CBI working directly under me as SP Dhanbat. So you knew him very well I'm sure. Now it's interesting he held various positions. He was Joint Commissioner of Police Ahmed Abad. He was Commissioner of Police in Surat and Vadodara but importantly and this is the important point he was he was heading the SIT the special investigation team appointed by the government of Gujarat to inquire into the infamous Sabarmati Express train burning episode in Godra in 2002 February. Quite so. And it is rightly or wrongly perceived that Mr Asthana is close to Mr Modi. Now one more set of facts and if you will be I'm sort of reading out bits and pieces from that petition which was dismissed by the court that's the Supreme Court. In April 2016 Mr Asthana was post as an additional director of the CBI and between the 3rd of December 2016 and 18th of January 2017 that's a short period of time just about a month and a half you can say he served as an acting acting director or stroke interim director of the CBI for a brief period during the period when Mr Anil Sinha had committed office on the 2nd of December and this was the first time in a decade that the CBI had not been headed by a full-time director for more than a month that is till Mr Alok Verma the present incumbent was appointed to the position. Now it's interesting that on the 30th of November 2016 two days before Mr Sinha Anil Sinha he completed his term as the CBI director the officer who was then second in command in the CBI Mr R. K. Dutta he was transferred to the Ministry of Home Affairs as special secretary internal security a post that was specially upgraded from the level of joint secretary to special secretary allegedly kicked upstairs media speculation okay let me go on few more points sir and may I just yes please yes please there is a post of special secretary security and it has been there since I was in the CBI but sir it was specially upgraded from the level of joint secretary I don't know but there is a post of that right you are Mr Kakkar has held this post very senior officers have held this post and they were there later on gone as DGs so I don't know about has been kicked upstairs no I'm I'm merely saying sir that this post was specially upgraded from the level of joint secretary to special I'm quoting from the petitions from joint secretary normally you become an additional secretary but it was upgraded to special secretary so that is that is surprise and I am not aware of all right now on 2017 on on the that is then sorry on 21st of October 2016 there was a selection committee which was constituted it was headed by the CVC Mr KV Choudhury and the two vigilance commissioners and the secretaries to the home ministry the department of personal and training to consider Mr Asthana appointment as special director of the CBI now various reports were presented to the Supreme Court and as I mentioned earlier the Supreme Court did not consider it one was that the then that the CBI director Mr Verma had objected in writing to Mr Asthana being promoted to there was a handwritten document alleging receipt of bribes this was alleged by Prashant Bhushan and Yogendra Yadav on the 7th of November this document is among many that is annexed to a first information report filed in August 30th 2017 pertaining to search and seizure rates conducted on a group called Sterling biotech part of the Sunday Saria group of companies several suspicious transactions Nigeria Dubai British Virgin Islands USA and it alleges that this FIR that Mr Asthana who was then commissioner of police surat had had acted in a manner that was favorable to the group and further allegation significantly that one of the alleged bribe givers was one Irfan Bhai who is supposed to be Irfan Siddiqui husband of Mumtaz Patel daughter of Amit Patel member of the Rajasabha belonging to the Indian National Congress said to be close to Congress President Sonia Gandhi I am merely reading out for you sir various media reports media reports so this Mr Asthana and his elevation has became a very very controversial thing so how do you put all of this in today's context Mr Asthana worked in the CBI and he was selected as SP and he's probably from Bihar therefore he was posted to Dhanbad and he's from the Gujarat no no he probably belongs to Bihar and he's got Gujarat Kader that's right if I remember he's a is born and brought up in Bihar probably so he chose to so he wanted a Bihar posting and he did a very good work in Dhanbad and you know Dhanbad is a minefield cold mafia cold mafia and he was not did not come into any disrepute that fact his work was appreciated what he did in Gujarat I'm not aware of you people may be better no I'm merely stating there is there are reports and these reports are pretty specific and naturally he has faced an inquiry and the Supreme Court has gone into the whole thing and he's having been brought into the CBI despite those adverse reports in Gujarat shows that the people who brought him in did not consider those reports seriously the common cause took it up bought it before the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court also threw it out therefore as saying there's no legal validity therefore Asthana apart from legal validity he cannot be kept down all right and his stand when he took over as director CBI he was not senior enough to occupy that position fully he was only acting director now when when Verma along Verma came into the CBI along Verma as you know is a Delhi police officer and he has never worked in the CBI in the past in any rank CBI is a vast organization runs into various states and people who do not have any experience of CBI find it normally very difficult Vijay Ram Rao was my director I know how difficult it was for him even to get to know the names of the units in the CBI so how many people are there in the CBI 4000 inspectors and branches all over India and some in some states two branches and it does it has humongous amount of cases and court and it every year investigates 1200 to 1300 cases and the most important cases of crime corruption economic fraud I passed on to this that's correct at one level we talk about the CBI being compromised being not politically neutral at the same level when you look at the ordinary person when you look at the person he looks after the CBI they have far more faith in the CBI than they have in their local police authority quite right so it's an important organization you if you didn't have the CBI you would have to invent it okay I want to go back to Mr. Rakesh Asthana you see when when the government decided to to induct him and promote him in fact that particular committee it was a appointment of the ACC the appointments committee of the cabinet and and the prime minister Narendra Modi and and the home minister Mr. Rajnath Singh were all appointees of joint direction above is by the ACC that's correct and at that time it was pointed out that Mr. Asthana has an outstanding career and there were 40 cases apparently of a very sensitive nature very significant nature which he was handling and I mentioned only the Godra Sabarmati Express and the Sandesh Siria cases but he's also been handling the Vijay Malia cases he's also been spearheading the cases concerning Lalu Prasad I was coming to that Lalu Prasad experience is CBI so Alok Verma relied fully upon him one moment sir I'll mention four more two more cases so it's not just the Vijay Malia cases and Mr. Vijay Malia is still in London yet to come back the VVIP helicopter case Alastavistan that's right the the coal gate the coal scam case and also the cases pertaining to the Rashtra Jantadal leader former chief minister of Bihar Lalu Prasad Yadav who's currently behind bars and his father the father so Mr. Asthana was handling a number of these highly sensitive and I should say politically sensitive cases except Lalu Nanatham is political Augusta Vislan there are more people involved in the bureaucracy okay let me put it this way these were high-profile and sensitive cases very important investigation involving a lot of money so that showed that his background in the CBI his five to six years in as SP where you are the main investigating officers of all the cases under investigation it may be on paper being investigated by the inspector of the DSP but the SP is in charge he is answerable to his DIG then I investigating officer is not that is how the CBI functions okay now so he was considered competent and Alok Verma must have relied upon it all right let me go back a little bit and say that the reason given my Mr. Alok Verma is telling the the central vigilance commission that please give us sufficient time in advance before you induct officers into the CBI and he said this time is required why because the CBI should be able to conduct what is described as due diligence checks on the the on the officers which are who are proposed to be inducted now these were two letters according to the Indian Express one dated 18th of May and the others dated the 6th of July and both of them cite section 4C of the Delhi Special Police Establishment Act which requires the directors of 1936 as amended by the central vigilance commission act of 2003 kindly explain the legalities you are saying this simply means that the director has to approve it is it director has to approve director and not anybody else so that is a legal requirement not the acting director or the or the special director number one I am not very clear about these letters because the procedure of induction to CBI is initiated by the CBI itself these names which have gone to the CBC should have been forwarded by the director CBI to him it appears that there were the you know the the where the names brought from outside so again I don't have all the facts but from what I understand that once a month the central vigilance commissioner who is currently Mr. K. V. Choudhury and the director CBI Mr. Alok Varma are supposed to meet they are supposed to have regular monthly meetings so I am presuming that these were jointly decided CBI and the CBC have a relationship formally the CBI used to work under the department of personnel then after the Vinit Narayan came after the Vinit Narayan came the CBC was made given that position the CBI is subordinate to the CBC now to formally subordinate to the ministry of personnel so technically the the the boss of the CBI director is the CBC the central vigilance commissioner as far as the home minister as far as the anti-corruption is concerned okay and I don't think the CBC has a boss okay I don't think CBC is like the election commissioner so he's a constitutional authority he's no no he's not a constitutional authority in that sense because he's not created by the constitution but his position is higher than the CBI director CBI director reports to the secretary personnel okay now now here it's interesting that it's supposed to come under the DOPT the department of personnel and training for administrative or administrative reasons but NDTV recently asked on the 16th of July asked the minister of state in the prime minister's office Shri Jitendra Singh and what was the response he and I quote I quote NDTV quoting Mr. Jitendra Singh he says we are just an administrative head and deal with administrative and policy issues now can the government wash its hands off after Vinit Narayan it's such an unseemly after Vinit Narayan the government stays away from investigation and induction of offices because then questions are asked whether it is able to stay away altogether that's a big question whether it has political control that's a big question I'm not sure that is completely divested of any all political control despite the CBC I'm not too sure okay I'm going to come to that I'm going to ask you a few questions but let me ask you two straight straight questions is this all about who's going to become the next director of the central bureau of investigation after Mr. Verma Dimmitt's office in January 2019 yes he completes two yes and then the next director is Arrakish Sanna but there is also Mr. YC Modi who heads the he's no longer in the CBI he's no but he's the head of the national investigating that is a separate unit but sir technically the ACC can choose an outsider Rakesh Asthana I think is the prime contender for the post of director CBI with his background in the CBI and with his closeness to the president prime minister okay so are you can it be said that the government is favoring him it can be certainly said the government wants him with the act to see if it wanted him from the very beginning okay I mean it was even pointed out there was three senior officers of the central bureau of investigation they removed Dutta correct no it was also pointed out the number of three senior officers of the CBI were sent back to the parent parent carder in in Tripura ostensibly because the new chief minister of Tripura wanted there but many believe that there was more to it than meets the eye Rakesh Asthana is slated to be director CBI if Mr. Modi the prime minister of India has his way okay let me also pointed out something that is appeared in the news reports in NDTV in Indian Express among others and and what has been said that you know this whole issue about the CBI officers being inducted in the CBI who had questionable integrity now one such candidate or one such person whose candidature was being pushed by Mr. Asthana was Jyoti Narayan of the Indian Police Service Uttar Pradesh carder 1996 he was being pushed for the position of joint director now it has been pointed out that he's being investigated he's par he's being investigated in the upendra rai case regarding the person the the journalist who was given the airport airport entry pass he was arrested by the arrested by the CBI then his connections yeah he got bailed from the high court and then the enforcement director arrested him so it was said that he was pushing his candidature wrong if it if the if he might have come to the mistake where it is wrong to push someone to CBI whose integrity is doubtful okay mrs. n my last question to you and this is the personal question to you you worked with the CBI from 1963 to 1996 you retired as joint director after a while you were there you handled a number of very very sensitive cases concerning the Birla group their textile businesses operation bluestar 1984 there were death of or the unnatural death of Saeed Modi the bad bad binton player in 1988 the Harshad Mehta security scandal in 1992 the alleged misuse of power by mr. V krishnamurthy the then member of the planning commission in 1993 you were a consultant to after you retired you were a consultant to national fertilizers limited where you investigated the urea scandal in may 1996 during the 13-day term of the watch by government and that scam allegedly involved the former prime minister mr. P. V. Narasimha Rao's own son Prabhakar Rao thereafter you have served as an advisor of the home department to the deli government under the left-wing governor Tejendra Khanna for two terms 97 98 in 2007 to 2013 we've seen in the Colgate case the supreme court observing that the CBI was a caged parrot do you believe as an institution the CBI and its efficacy and its credibility has been undermined more than ever before I'm not saying this government or only responsible but over the years what are your views and this is how do you react how do you put what has happened now in the last few weeks in this wider bigger context CBI is a good organization and CBI is one organization on for which the people look up look up to but then there have been many occasions when the CBI has not fought look at the emergency period we had an outstanding director then decent but then those textile inspectors were investigated when they should not have CBI has been missing about the Birla group the textile inspectors separately if you look look up your records mentioned in the Shah commission thing CBI came into a lot of an excana during for the by the Shah commission CBI later on when the new government came all the cases with CBI started against in the emergency were all closed by CBI itself so CBI has quite a few skeletons let me be very frank it is not pristine blues C but CBI has done extraordinarily good work where it is counted any organization like the CBI is prone to be misused it all depends upon the men in position if they are able to stand up then they can stand up if you are not able to stand up then you fall that is why the founders of the CBI did not want that it should be manned only by officers from various states they had decided that CBI should have its own detective carder I was one of them and that recruitment continued for 10 years but then something has happened with the government the government found these offices not easy to handle they didn't have are you suggesting shantanu babu that the government wants pliable officers and and are you suggesting that in the last four years under the present regime you know this has happened long ago okay this has not happened last four years this started happening from 1983 itself is there anything new about what has happened in the last four years where the top two individuals now this day it's an open fight now these officers those officers are no longer there now all officers in the CBI are those who have come from states that is mr. Modi has chosen officers from vijrath certainly they want in certain cases not in all cases CBI investigates 1200 cases every year a few of them which are significant or politically important the CBI likes even the Uriah scam after all where all those guilty prosecuted that was not mr. Modi's government that was the Narasimha Rao's government mr. Bhashma's government and mr. Devgoda's government what happened only the select few were prosecuted so CBI has been misused not for the first time yes the misuse was less now it is much more and the best part is you all are talking about it is that a good thing it's a good thing that that the media the the press absolutely it's absolutely a good thing this is democracy working mr. Datta's you were maneuvered out people spoke about it and they could not make Astana the director then if nobody had spoken about it Astana might have become director then he was not due all right so i know you already written a book called the insider speaks i look forward to publishing you when your new set of memoirs come out come out and and and i want to thank you mr. Sen for being so candid in explaining this most unusual situation that is currently prevailing and before i sign off would you like to have a last word and say what are the big lessons that we have to learn from this present episode i really wouldn't wouldn't be able to say what lessons we are learning lessons every day something happens you learn lessons you take instructions the thing is the cbi officer should continue to look upon the law as its chief and if they do that cbi will function well if they look upon their political masters as their chief the cbi will dip thank you so much mr shantung says the pleasure giving me your time thank you so much for coming