 this distinct tech global connections. And we're talking about the tunnels, the tunnels of Hamas and Hezbollah with our old friend, Dr. Roopmati Kandekar, who is in New York and she is our global reporter covering anything of global consequence. Thank you very much, Roopmati, for joining us today. Hello, Ajay, thank you for having me with you. Always my pleasure. And mine. So we were talking about tunnels today, tunnels are all the rage because tunnels are at the center or at least an important factor in the Israeli decision to do a ground war in Gaza. And so I guess the first thing I'd like to know from your studies and your reporting, what are those tunnels like in Gaza? What's the engineering of them? What's the dimensions of them? What is in them? What are the considerations about going into them and attacking Hamas? Correct. Since the October 7th terrorist attack on Israel, retaliation was expected. And Israel did the right thing by not saying that they want to eliminate Palestine or anything. They said they wanted to eliminate Hamas, the terrorist organization responsible for the terrorist attack on Israel. So they're very clear about the aim. And, Ajay, we had spoken about the tunnel network. Now Gaza has been under land sea and air blockade by Israel to vacate, to remove the civilians from Gaza as ships. Now, as we know, Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas of the world. And to give you an opening idea of the tunnel network, Gaza is around 88 square miles. And 1.5 times the area of Gaza, there is a tunnel network underneath the city. So we understand that all this network is helping Hamas store the ammunition, hide themselves, and present a very formidable underground warfare to a very highly sophisticated technology that Israel has. Now, this underground warfare is presenting a problem, Jai, because literally, it is underground. It is not detected by the drones surveillance equipment of the Israelis. So Jai, we can go back to around 2000 and we start with Hezbollah. Hezbollah had made these tunnels to attack Israel in 2018. So they came in and they used these to infiltrate Israel from the Lebanon border. And when in 2018 Israel destroyed them, Hamas had already made from 2007, they were digging these things with Egypt. And it was used initially as smuggling of arms and ammunition from the Rafa border to Egypt. When Egypt destroyed them in 2010, they realized they could use this exact technology to infiltrate Israel. And they were used in the October 7th attack. And when they came in, you see, Jai, these are not dug with sophisticated machinery. They're used by simple technology. And it is a network of which is, it's a 2.5 feet, height is around six feet. And this ranges for miles and miles. If suppose you say it is around 350 miles is the network. 500 kilometers, yeah. Yeah, 500 kilometers. That is equivalent to the bigger than 100 miles, bigger square miles, bigger than the London underground. So can you imagine they are interconnected. They are highly self-contained tunnels. That means they have enough area to store their missiles, their food, they have secret rooms. They have these strategic points where they can have access to all the Gaza points. And Jai, one smart thing that they have done is that the entry points and exit points. And this is a very important point because they have made it which enter hospitals, schools, civilian buildings, which can never be targeted by any military of any nation. So they have openings to the tunnels which are in these sensitive points. They have not made it open access. All of them are in civilian areas. And this is the exact reason why Israel is pressing on that the civilians have to evacuate and they want to bomb. Whatever they knew of through intelligence, they have already bombed. And you see them bombing these buildings because they have access points to these tunnels. And Jai, North Gaza has more tunnels than the rest of the area. But the network is spread all throughout Gaza. Make no mistake about that. And it is 130 feet below the ground. And the width, like I told you, it's around 2.5 and 6 feet. They have these bikes which move inside. There are videos which show you the bike within the tunnel. And you see these missiles which are put in a line. And that was where Hamas was getting 5,000 rockets to fire into Israel. Where did they store it? They store it in these tunnels. And the tunnel network becomes very, very important because not only do they provide shelter to these militants, Jai, the main, main point is that they have a lot of ammunition. And when the Israeli army will go in, these ammunition points will serve as minefields for the Hamas territories. They can use it as the Israeli army advances along with the snipers in the buildings. They can use these tunnels as mines. So 1.5 times the size of the city underlying the city and filled with ammunition and terrorists, it's a very tough task for the Israeli army to handle. And on top of that, if you're putting human shields of hostages, if you're putting human shields of civilians, it becomes all the more difficult and especially with the social media pressure, we see that they are presenting it as a war between Israel and Palestine. It is not a war between Israel and Palestine. It is Israel versus the terrorist organization. It always has to be made clear that is Israel versus Hamas terrorist organization. And the tunnel network is their biggest defense ever. And as soon as they destroy this, we are going to have a humanitarian inclined Gaza. I'll tell you why, because the money that is diverted for humanitarian aid, Jai, that is being used for these building these tunnels around, say, how many, 1.5 billion dollars is the amount estimated to build these tunnels. This 500 kilometers, 1.5 billion and 1,000 billion, one, yeah, is the amount that comes into Gaza as humanitarian aid, 1 billion. And 1.5 billion has been used for these concrete tunnels. So you see they're not using it for humanitarian things because one tunnel can build you, it is 350 trucks of concrete is used for building these tunnels. And in that same amount, which you build a two by two kilometer by four kilometer tunnel, you can build around 86 houses, 19 medical clinics, six schools and seven mosques. Imagine all that is going to build one tunnel. So Hamas is diverting the money that comes into Gaza for humanitarian purposes to build these tunnels. And 1.5 billion is not a small amount. So they have been using all the aid and even Israel gives them concrete to build civilian houses. Even that has been diverted because Jai, pick up any video, you see that the tunnels are well-concreted. They have electricity, they have internet access, they have supplies of food, they have ammunition storage. So it's a very important weapon of war that Hamas possesses, which has to be destroyed well. How deep did you say they are? 1.5 below the ground. 1.5 under, how far down? They are like 1.5 feet below the ground. And they're 2.5 meters broad and six feet in height. So one thing interests me is you say that the access to the tunnels are under what? Hospitals and residential buildings and what have you. What is it? What is one of these access points look like? Jai, they must be opening the flaps which open from the ground. You have secret doors which come from the ground. And strategically you see they do have support of civilians, they do have support in schools, Jai. They open up in schools, they open up in mosques, they open up in hospitals. So you see these are targets, which in warfare also people hesitate to target. And Hamas has made sure that access and entry into these points is going to be at such places where they will never be denied access into this. Now, how to deal with them? Yeah, let's go to that. I just want to get one more point I have seen and I've heard that Hamas is able to fire missiles and rockets and drones which they keep in the tunnels along the side of the tunnel from those access points. And so those access points would be outside, I suppose. And then they would slip open the door to the access point. They would bring up the rocket or the missile, what have you. They would fire it and then they would bring the, the mechanism for the rocket back down into the tunnel, close the door and nobody would know where the rocket came from. Am I right? Is that what's happening? Correct, Jai. Like how we have the wiring on the top of the tunnel, on the ceiling of the tunnel, on your arm's length you'll have missiles lining that entire length and breadth of the tunnel. So that's the kind of ammunition that they hold and what you said was absolutely right. And one more point, Jai. Hamas knew that when they attack Israel with this terrorist move, they will expect a retaliation. Israel will retaliate, but they have, I feel it's like a trap that they're laying for the army to come in and they know their capability that the mind process of the network is like a suicide bomb that they will use the network for. They will have points where they have huge ammunition in small, small tunnels and they will use to blow it up. That is a very big danger that the Israeli army is facing. And for that, we have Jai, the surveillance and the civilians have to get out for a complete proper retaliation to be done by the Israeli army. Yeah, they're gonna have mines and other explosive devices in those tunnels, which they can probably trigger by either the internet, you said there was internet cable in there or by some kind of remote radio signal within the tunnel or automatically. In other words, you step on a mine or you pass a certain point in the tunnel and it blows you up. So the Israelis have a pretty big challenge on their hands because as long as those tunnels exist, Hamas is in operating mode. As long as those tunnels exist, Hamas has a place for its missiles and its ammunition, food, water, all the things that it needs for supply. As long as those tunnels exist, they have a place to hold the hostages and themselves. So, and I'm sure they have plans on which the tunnels, I saw a chart of the tunnels and they turn, as you said, is where they call it, it's the Hamas metro. They turn left, they turn right. It's like a maze, you have to know which way is going and we don't, because the Israelis don't. So they're gonna have to figure a way to deal with all the tricks and surprises that Hamas has built in. One interesting point that I heard made is that Israel has been waiting two weeks now to attack those tunnels and in those two weeks, Hamas has been fortifying those tunnels and supplying those tunnels and getting ready. One commentator said, well, they must be tired down there. I'm not sure I agree with that. I think they're not tired. They're preparing. Yeah, go ahead. They are preparing, Jay. I mean, you're facing one of the most potent armies in the world and you have the guts to stand in front of them because they have plans, Jay. The terrorist attack was just part of the plan. I mean, I told you last time we discussed that the ultimate goal for them is to establish Islam and eliminate the front. So for them, Israel is the enemy and you have these people who supply, there is also that Iran supplies them spare parts for the machinery that they have and the assembly of the entire thing takes place in the tunnels. They have enough space for assembly of ammunition and warfare in those tunnels. It's not just a cramped up place. It's a fully functional city down there. So that is dangerous. That's remarkable. Remarkable how they designed it so well. And at the same time, as we were discussing before the show, the militants are motivated. They're motivated to fight. One thing that came out in the news is that to motivate them on October 7th, they were promised an apartment and $10,000 in American money, cash, to go out and kill Jews. And they were given drugs to, I guess, motivate them and make them more dangerous. Can you talk about that? Yeah, they have the chapter gone drug which is manufactured in, I think it was manufactured in Germany, I'm right. And it's a party drug. They use it to keep your energy high and they make sure that you don't feel guilty in what you're doing. Now, this point of feeling guilty was when the terrorists came in and started killing civilians and babies and all that. They didn't have to feel guilty and stop the mission. So, I mean, they have found in the pockets huge amounts of this chapter gone drug and this kept them in a frenzy in which they attacked all these civilians and they went on a rampage of this savage rampage because of, they were under the influence of drugs. So, they used drugs. I suggest to you be interested in your thoughts about it that as and when the Israelis go into those tunnels trying to root them out, they're gonna be on those drugs and they're gonna be suicidal on those drugs. It's like wearing a suicide vest. They won't care about getting killed. They'll be on the drugs. Do you imagine that would happen? Exactly, Jay. I mean, let's come down to that low level that not only the Hamas fighters are suicidal, they've even made the networks suicidal. The drone of Iran is a suicidal drone, isn't it? It goes and just bombs itself. So, they come down to basically this level. I mean, when they are ready, I'll tell you, we value life. They bring it down to no life. They don't value their life. So, what can we put at stake for them? And they're at suicide level. We don't know what to do with them. All this waiting, the points, entry points, stopping of food, water, you come out civilians is why? Because Israel values life more than Hamas. Yes. And it's ready to give up the life. Israel is ready to preserve life. It's a big difference, Jay. Big difference. It's black and white. So, let's talk about the second part of our examination of these tunnels. What do we know or what can we think about? What can we imagine the Israelis can do? I mean, whether the Israelis have made it clear they're preparing to go into these tunnels. They understand and accept the fact that they were surprised on October 7th and the plans that Hamas came up with were a surprise. Now, likewise, they feel that they have to have, and they do have surprises that they will use in going into the tunnels. But what might those be? Yeah, Jay. Unknown technology now coming up. And we don't have an iron dome for this. So this is the most sophisticated machinery versus gorilla water. Gorilla suicidal water. So kind of the balance is very, very precarious because we don't know what to expect in this kind of warfare. Now, I'll tell you, in Israel, we have a Yavalon unit, which is a specialized unit that deals with underground exactly this. There's a unit, and it is actually known as combat engineering cops, but they do, they're specialists in the underground operations. They are the largest unit and most efficient unit in dealing with these underground tunnels, but they make their own weapons, Jay. Nobody knows which weapons they use, and they destroy the tunnels with completely, but it's a unit, and we are facing a city of tunnels. So that is just taking up the delay, but we have to make the entire Israeli army the Yavalon unit right now. It has to be quick training and for this combat. Now, Jay, there is a clear definition of dealing with tunnels that you bomb the tunnels. Second would be not recommend, not accepted worldwide would be putting gas into the tunnels to bring out the rats from the tunnels. So that would be at a later stage if Israel really queues it, but they cannot escape this onslaught because they have bought it onto themselves. Imagine- On gas, on gas, I was thinking about gas. So in the old days, the dentists used to use laughing gas, and there are all kinds of gases that are not necessarily poison or lethal gases, but they disable you, make them unconscious or unable to engage with guns. So gas has got to be part of this. If they can find, if they can develop a gas that isn't necessarily in violation of whatever conventions are involved, the Geneva Convention, poison gas was outlawed after World War I, but two thoughts about that. Number one is, I think there are other gases that are not poisoned for that convention. And the other is, I think we have to realize, and somebody said this in a program I was watching today, somebody said that what Hamas is doing, the atrocities, the war crimes, these things with the tunnels is rewriting. These things are rewriting the rules of war. They were rewriting those conventions because you have to find a way to deal with them. Anyway, okay, so gas is a possibility. What else? Gas. Bombing them outright, the seeds that will happen. Two ways, you have the air missiles which will be simultaneous with the ground, will be reinforcing the ground units. And you'll have a very comprehensive attack that will take place with the Yavalom unit heading the spearheading the attack. So that's going to be kind of a very precarious situation that's going to be brought in, but it has to be a concerted effort because Jay, this is a very intelligent, rat-minded enemy that they're dealing with. And we cannot afford to forget that they do have hostages which will be presented every point. When they delayed two American hostages, they put the Israeli army on the back foot and they wanted more time. That was the way they bought time, that the hope that they will release more hostages was the thing which delayed the action even further. So they are playing mind games. And I don't think we can be all that optimistic about the safe return of the hostages because they will be, they are being put in harm's way. Let me offer another possibility to you. It's robotics. These tunnels you said are two and a half feet wide, six feet tall. There are missiles and the like along the sides. If the Israelis had a robotic that would walk down the tunnel or an explosive device that would stay in the tunnel until they triggered it, okay? Then they could get out of the tunnel again. They could trigger it or it would walk autonomously by itself into the tunnel. And when it found anything of interest, it could blow itself up. And if that happened, a number of results. Number one is it would bring the tunnel down at that place. Although I think we have to recognize the tunnels are actually made of steel. So it's not that easy to bring them down. It's not like an earthen tunnel or our old mine with wooden supports. No, this is steel. So you have to have a real serious explosion to bring it down. Number two is it might explode the ordinance. The rockets, the missiles that are lined up along the sides, the walls. Number three, if they were there, it would kill Hamas. And maybe that's the way you set this up so that it only activates when there's Hamas people there. And number four, I suppose, it would kill any hostages. And I think the Israelis could be making a decision about that, that they regrettably are victims of war, their casualties of war, and they're part of this process. It seems to me that robotics, however smart, are dangerous to everyone around, including the hostages who undoubtedly are in the tunnels. So they have to make the calculus around that. But I think they should be considering robotics. Absolutely right, absolutely right. The only, what is that, the barrier that took any action for us is that the sheer size of the chip, kilometers and kilometers and kilometers running, it's a city that we have finished before you get into Hamas, with civilian break points, speed breakers at every point. And Hamas has been doing this since 2007, Jake. So that's been a long time since they have been building these tunnels. And fortifying these tunnels, used to habituating themselves to living these kind of conditions, is what has made them very strong. You know, how long did it take to go to the Thorobora Mountains in Afghanistan? The same thing over here, they have gone underground and made an entire place down. So this kind of imbalance, asymmetrical warfare, is they have asymmetric advantage, which negates the sophistication of any technology. So Maria, you know, it strikes me that one of the strengths of these tunnels is that they're way deep in the ground. But that's one of the weaknesses of these tunnels too. And Giza is on the water. And the Israelis have boats, ships, you know, fighting vessels right out there. They could hook up some seawater and they could find some openings into the tunnels and pump the seawater into the tunnels. Seawater is corrosive. And if you don't have air, if you're pumping water and displacing the air, you can't breathe down there. I don't know if Hamas has air down there. So it seems to me that, you know, it's like a fire engine, the Israeli boats that simply pump seawater into like a fire hose of air, find the first opening and just fill it up. And since it's deep, the water would go down all through the tunnel system, at least that tunnel system, maybe not all, because they're different, they're separate tunnel systems, but at least that tunnel system would be, you know, made dysfunctional. What do you think about that? It's the most superb idea you have given Jay because see, flooding happens in all the metro cities everywhere, it's not, you know, it's not harmful, it's not under any convention, it's not barred by any international organization. It would just make Gaza City an island for some time. It's one of the best, best idea. I wish IDF is watching this. So, you know, they get this idea from you because it is most non-independent city. And there'll be no firepower in the water. Is it, Jay? I mean, they cannot blow it up. So that would be, I think, the most sophisticated set to the gorilla walk that you have given, technically, Jay. I'm speechless. I'm really speechless. It's like a judo, in the sense you're using the other fellow's advantage and making it your advantage. The depth of the tunnel becomes your advantage. What else we got? What else? It's so easy to do, like you said, the sea is just next to them and they have access to the seawater. No problem in that. It would be the best solution possible, I think. Robotics and all, it's a bit overwhelming for technology to take over, but this is, I think, would bring out those people. And Jay, it's a potent enemy because they know what they're doing. And they have a aim, Jay. See, Israel's goal is to eliminate Hamas, but Hamas' goal is to destroy it and that makes them megalomaniacs. And Jay, we cannot afford to deal with the megalomaniac because one is enough to destroy a city. And you have a gang of organization of megalomaniacs. We have seen that in their combat. We have seen in the way they treat the Palestine citizens themselves. We have seen how West Bank has washed its hands of Hamas because saying that they're not representative of the Palestine people. There's no unity amongst themselves also that they present themselves as the true leaders of the Palestine people and they're stopping civilians from leaving Gaza because of the full onslaught of the Israel arm. So, I mean, they are cowards also, but they're pretending to be very brave. Let's see how it works. I think it should work out in a good favor because like it or not, eliminating Hamas is a favor to the world because they are going to spread out and create chaos everywhere. Like they did in Jordan. They did in Egypt. Egypt had to blast out their tunnels in 2010. So they are not only bad with Israel. They are bad with everybody that they see. And it's the inherent nature to be terrorists. Yeah, it's their culture. They're from small children. They're trained to hate. That's what they're trained for. So let me ask you one other tunnel question here. This is a hard one. We know there are, what did you say? Hundreds of kilometers of tunnels under Gaza as there are in southern Lebanon, same thing. Probably the same kind of technology but in both cases, it came from Iran. The funding, the technology, all the techniques of building and arming the tunnels. Anyway, in Gaza, there are 150 kilometers of tunnels. Five. Excuse me. Five. 500 there. Excuse me, 500 tunnels. 500 kilometers of tunnels. So, and they're separate and distinct. They're little systems like the New York subway. You get this group of trains and that group of trains and they're not necessarily connected except in special places. So that means there are a lot of access points. And the trick for the Israelis to deal with this, whatever methodology they decide to use, whatever surprises they can cook up in order to deal with all the defensive mechanisms and the surprises that Hamas has built in the tunnels. The Israelis are going to have to find the access points as you said. And the access points, I mean, I've seen photographs of the access points. It's just big enough for one individual to get through the floor or whatever the access point is, whether it's in a building or in a field or a cemetery, whatever it is. So the access point would be what? No bigger than two feet by two feet. No bigger than that, probably smaller. And it would have a flap on it and it would be covered with something like a rug or who knows, grass or a straw or something, anything. It's hard to find, not necessarily visible. I mean, it's built not to be visible. And all it is, there's a hole in the ground because it goes straight down. These access points have a ladder and you have to climb down a vertical 90 degree ladder to get to the next level where you can actually walk in the tunnel. And that's a substantial distance and climb. So how, what kind of technology, what kind of surprises can the Israelis develop to locate the access points? It's critical for them, don't you think? Jake, time is running out because of the social media reactions and the pressure, world pressure of countries on, building on Israel to put up a ceasefire. But the retaliation has to be there. They have to deal with rat holes. So this kind of finding access points was difficult. So Israel took the decision of evacuating entire Gaza of the civilians so that they could carpet bomb it, destroy everything and then they could actually see which are the access points clearly. They cannot, it's not possible for them to have civilians existing over there. And access points being available to these people. So they decided with the extreme conditions of stopping food, water, electricity to Gaza, saying civilians have to mandatory come out of Gaza because they need to carry out a military operation to eliminate Hamas. It was as clear as that that they gave it because CJ, if we go combing operations and trying to find access points, it will take another 3,500 years, correct? So I can think of two technologies by which they can identify the access points. One is air pressure. So maybe it's a bomb or some kind of instrument that changes the air pressure in the neighborhood. And if in other words, the pressure on the cap of that access point would be X. But if there were negative pressure above the cap then it would open it or it would move it. And somehow the difference in pressure could be measured. That would be a great thing. If they knew where the access points were, somehow with some sophisticated way to measure the difference in the tunnel versus the outside. The other thing that comes to mind and this is really old fashioned and I'm tripping off what you said a minute ago. It's clear enough that a lot of the Palestinians in Hamas and a lot of the Palestinians in Gaza don't like the Hamas. Hamas have been treated badly. They have stolen their money, stolen their food, water, fuel and they will continue to do that. So there's a certain amount of resentment. And I think that that may be coming out now that Gaza is so destroyed and some of them may properly resent Hamas for being there and calling all of this down on their heads. So they may be good targets for intelligence. This is the old fashioned way to find access points is to find people who will show them to you. And I think that's probably the Israelis best bet to find people who are a little disenchanted with Hamas and who will just point them out, point it out for me. Just tell me where it is. Okay, then the Israelis will have a head start on dealing with that. What do you think? Yeah, you remember J.B. Spoguer, who was the son of Hamas. He got so fed up with the setup organization. He himself became part of the Israeli setup and he had a handler and he could coordinate the intelligence on both sides and help Israel find a solution. Now J, you have civilians who are now refugees and have to find a place to live. And Hamas is a terrorist organization which has, they have used these civilians to such a horrible extent that they have not kept any space for us to, Israel allowed them to function. They gave them a chance to function. They had the civilians to build, construct their houses and Hamas has risen to this level because Israel has allowed Gaza to exist and flourish. But if you're going to use it as a vantage point to get a terrorist attack into mainland Israel that becomes, it becomes target for retaliation. And these people who will be our intelligence tech will be such solid intelligence because they are the ones who are conditioned by this kind of retribution and retaliation. So they are going to be the best assets that Israel has. But I know one, J, you cannot trust some people. You just cannot trust them because they have an inherent trait of disloyalty. They do not possess that, you know, when you are loyal to something you have to continue it till a long time. These people change for benefits and that is the problem that we have. We cannot afford somebody to help and then twist and change at the last minute. They would put Israel at a more sensitive point and they would have more access. They would leak out more on the other side, I think. So double agents, you're right, that's a real risk. Better not to trust and have a little bit of hurt rather than trust and be in a soup that way. So I don't trust easily. Well, I guess the good news is that if they identify an access point, it's easy to verify, you know. They just, the point, they show what building, what plot of land where it is and the Israelis can verify that. The problem, and I think you're right, the problem is that access point itself may be booby-trapped and we could be working for both sides and suck the Israelis into a deadly situation. So the Israelis have to be very careful with intelligence. They are ready with the counter-combat. They knew that this retaliation would come. They are just waiting for the Israel army to come in. Otherwise, why would they wait? I mean, it's a very big question to ask. They are waiting in ambush and that is a big thing of Burla warfare to wait for the enemy to approach you and then show your true potential. That is the fear that we all have that that is a strategic calculation that has to be taken for the safety of Israel. Okay, we got to go. Marikandekar, our world reporter, and we hear our global connections. We'll be back with more. All these things will unfold. Thank you so much, Roopmati. One line, one line. Why isn't Gaza running out of profits? They should run out of profit. They're running out of water, electricity, food. Why they're not running out of profits? Interesting question. Let's watch. Let's watch. We'll be back together. You'll see. Thank you so much, Roopmati. Thank you so much. Aloha.