 Okay. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening to everyone wherever you are. I hope you are all doing well. Before I introduce myself and the panel, I'd just like to let you know that we have interpretation into French and Spanish for this session. So if you'd like to listen in another language, either of those two, they're your options. Please click on the globe icon at the lower part of your zoom window and select that language. Okay. My name is Rowan Bennett and I'm a land administration advisor for Cadastra International in the Netherlands and the current chair of the International Federation of Surveys Commission 7 on Land Management and Cadastra. And I warmly welcome you to this webinar on responsible scaling of Fit for Purpose Land Administration with the sub theme of balancing tech and governance challenges. This is the first webinar in a responsible scaling series initiated by the Netherlands Enterprise Agency acronym RVO and the Land Portal Foundation as part of the Land at Scale program that runs out of the Netherlands. Land at Scale, as I said, is a Dutch land governance support program financed by the Netherlands Ministry of Foreign Affairs and managed by RVO. As many of you know, FFPLA is celebrated for its affordability, speed and flexibility focus. And this puts it in contrast to conventional forms of land administration that we've used in the past. Its origins date back well over 10 years, although it's the acronym and the catch line we have been using in the domain for the past decade. The model itself or philosophy itself really interweaves both the spatial and legal, but also institutional dimensions and a lot of work by the World Bank, a lot of work by FIG, but also the Global Land Tool Network underpins the global formulation of FFPLA. So today's focus for us in this webinar will be this juxtaposition between the rapid technological advances that we've been seeing in the domain and the geospatial domain in terms of data collection and the often slower evolution of the legal and institutional frameworks that enable those. So while we can gather data swiftly and build technical systems more cost effectively the long term considerations regarding maintenance updates and so forth remain really paramount and key issues when especially when we start to talk about scalability. So we're going to delve in the next 90 minutes or so into deeply into the intricacies of legal and institutional aspects that are essential for sustainable land governance shifts. And we're going to look at striking the right balance or participants and our speakers will talk about experiences in terms of how to strike that right balance between technology and the fundamental blocks that are key to achieving lasting and scaled impact. So we hope to shed light on integrating these strategies and to emphasize the significance of involving non-technical stakeholders outside the surveying and land administration domain in the conversation. Few logistical notes before we begin the webinar as you may have seen is being streamed live on multiple platforms. And please note that live tweeting is occurring for this event from the land portal Twitter account and the hashtag we are using is hashtag land at scale so feel free to join in the conversation there. We have created a social media kit for the event, which has been shared with you in the chat. So take a look in the chat now if you want to get access to that. And if you do have questions, we would encourage you to post them in the Q&A section and you can get that by clicking the Q&A button at the bottom of the screen. And we are going to answer those questions later on in the webinar as much as we can get to noting that we have got several hundred participants and a bit more registered for this webinar. Just finally, in the interest of transparency, I should add that today's session is being recorded and you will receive a link to the video afterwards. Also an article with the key messages will be made available later in the land portal's website. Okay, that's all the background and logistical matters out of the way. Let's get down to business and allow me to introduce our excellent speakers. So I'm joined by a really exciting panel today and they're going to be helping me and you unpack the issues that I've just mentioned up above. So in no particular order, or if there is, I certainly didn't put the order together, here are our speakers. So first we have Remy, Darirah Gigi, sorry Remy, I'm just terrible at the pronunciation, but you'll correct me I'm sure. And Remy is a VNG international country, sorry Remy. Country, I did rehearse that before we started and I just totally mucked it up for you. So forgive me. In VNGs, who he will explain what that is in international countries representative in Burundi, he's a governance expert who has been working with passion on local governance, peacebuilding and conflict transformation and gender transformation issues in the domain and that country. And he's done that so for 15 years in different contexts, including Burundi, but also South Sudan, Chad and Malawi. So welcome Remy. Our second panelist is Christelle Vandenberg and she's the regional manager for Cadastra International. And she collaborates with ministries, embassies, universities, global businesses and financial partners, including the World Bank and the European Union in her work and she manages an expert team focused in on African context and actively contributes to National Land Administration programs. And I guess the key one there in the last few years in her portfolio has been the country of Banyan. So we'll be hearing about that shortly. Our third speaker is. Yes, no welcome aboard. Our third speaker sorry I'm not even giving people a chance to say hello but I'm conscious of time but thank you and do cut on me as needed. Third speaker is the excellent Israel Tawal from who is our young professional. So we've got the young professionals covered as well. He's also chair of FIG Commission 7 point working group 7.2. And he'll explain a little bit what that is, but it is focused specifically on FFP LA. He is a geomatics lecturer at the federal politic Nick of Adi Akiti in Nigeria. He champions the use of geospatial science for sustainable development and bridges the academic practical divide in that regard with a robust background in geotechnical geospatial tech and roles in national and international surveying bodies he's deeply committed to local and global impact so Israel welcome aboard. Okay, and Al, you want to say something. Yeah, thank you so much for going to welcome aboard now great to have you here. And our final panelist is Park Virgo Arista Jaya who is general director of the land and spatial survey and mapping directorate for the ministry of Aerial Affairs and Spatial Planning and the National Land Agency in Indonesia. And he also serves on the honorary council of the Indonesian Surveys Association and is the vice chair of the working group on cadastral land management for the UN GG IM in Asia Pacific region. So there are speakers that's the background and the way we're running the webinar is typical of how we run land portal webinars where we've got a range of questions and we'll be buzzing around to our different speakers and threading through them, and then eventually leading to the more open Q&A session. So to get things rolling. I've got an opening general question really to to all the panelists, because I think it's important that we get a get a baseline view on where you will stand and how you understand the concepts so I'm going to ask all the panelists how they understand the term FFPLA, whether they feel it's a parting fad, or is it just a rebranding of something it's been before, or is there something new and a real substance here when we talk about FFPLA, what's all the buzz about. So, I'm going to first give the floor to Israel, our youngest member of the panel, Israel, tell us about FFPLA from your perspective. Thank you so much Rohan, and good afternoon to everybody from everywhere in the world. I'm excited to be in this place and I'm happy that I have this opportunity to tell you about FFPLA, which is what the FIG working group 7.2 does. I'd like to say that FFPLA is both a concept and an approach to land administration and management. And what it does is to ensure the flexibility, inclusiveness, participativeness, affordability, reliability, attainability and upgradability of land management practices. Now one is if flexible means both the legal, the institutional and spatial frameworks are flexible enough to serve the needs of the population that it intends to meet. And then also inclusive to ensure that there is everybody can interact with the land insurance system to be able to access security for the attainable. And also participatory such that the population itself, the people can as well be able to interact with the system and then affordable. So cost wouldn't be a problem while somebody does not have security to his tenure. And then reliable, time bound and then upgradable. Also, I would like to quickly say concerning the question that Ron had today about if it's a passing fad or not. I would like to say the time FFPLA can not be a passing fad, not in the sight of all of the inefficient and ineffective or sustainable land insurance practices that we have all over in different parts of the world. I mean, we have challenges ranging from tenure insecurity to inequitable access to land, and then to gender deprivation and then to informal land markets environmental degradation on the utilizing of land resources barriers to economic growth and just so many of them. Now all these things with all of this, the FFPLA cannot be a passing fad because it seeks to uses all the six principles I mentioned earlier to address some of these challenges or all of these challenges. And I like to say that as long as ineffective and inefficient and unsustainable land additional practices exists, the concept and the approach of fit for purpose land that institution will always remain imperative. I mean, it's never going to be a passing fad rather it's represented significant shift in how we manage our land in how land has been administered. And it's having a special focus on practicality and cost effectiveness to ensure that security of tenure can be ensured, not just for your population but for the whole population that it's supposed to serve. I'd like to conclude on this first question Rohan that FFPLE is a substantive approach to land administration. And I say that because not just because of the nomenclature FFPLE as an academic term or a professional terms, but rather I like to say that FFPLE is actually something that you and I can interact with and then something that we need to look at professionally. And of course in reality it's working in practice. I mean, in practice we have people out there who are implemented this principle so myself personally I've done that before and then all of us, most of us in this place who have interest in land matters. Actually I've implemented FFPLE at one point or the other. So I think I'll have to stop for now because of my time. Thank you so much. Thanks very much, Israel for giving us the opening, opening lines there and I think you've given us quite a positive and comprehensively positive view on your views as a young professional and a young academic working in the land sector with regards to what FFPLE offers and how it can be implemented. I want to now jump over to Virgo who obviously works in a different country in a different context and at a different scale so to speak. I mean Indonesia's got some incredible numbers around it. Virgo what's your initial thoughts to the question I asked earlier about FFPLE and what it offers or maybe doesn't offer. Okay thank you Rohan. So good evening everyone. It's 8pm here in Indonesia so a bit dark here. Not a good lighting but thank you Rohan for the question. Then as a practitioner and a policy maker I think for Indonesian government FFP of it for proposed land administration is just a matter of choice between three options, between the speed, the price and the quality. So before then it was a very long and expensive process in land registration in Indonesia so it's not affordable for everyone and we choose at a time which is the good quality because we want to secure the title. And because of that the process is lengthy and only the rich people can afford to register their land especially to secure the title and also for getting loan from the bank. So the land registration for the last from the 1960 to 90 to the 2015 is actually driven by the people by the people. So government realized that and in the last five years since 2015 the government taking this into serious matter right. And then we think that we should attract the investment and we want to have a mass land registration. So we choose the first two options, the speed and low price first. So we try our best in the last couple of years like five, seven, six years to have the FFP using the cheap method and the speedy method. So and for the last question, is it a passing path? I don't think so because I think the option, those three options will be relevant I think in a quite long time and only probably our choices shifted. Right now the purpose is to give all people the title or to register their land. Probably in the future the purpose is to increase the accuracies but the FFP itself, the three options, the speed, the quality and the price will remain the same and will remain long lasting. Thank you. Thank you for ago and I'm really glad you've brought up this, this tripartite issue of speed, cost and quality because it has been that, you know, the triangle of the challenging triangle where we normally can only get to two points out of the three satisfied but as you sort of mentioned there with with technology development and new ways of thinking about process all of a sudden the ability to move towards, you know, achieving all three at once becomes a reality, not there yet but obviously more so than it was previously. Well, I want to bring you in there for your thoughts if we've heard from academia we've heard from the applies in government, you work with a development agency and with donors. What's your, what's your view on FFP LA with your most recent country. Thank you, Rowan. Thank you. First of all, I would like to thank land portal and the landed scale team RVO to invite me for this webinar. Well, what regards your question Rowan, I don't think that fit for purpose is a parting thought at all. I would rather say it's at the beginning of the development. Because by now it has become like a well known concept in the domain of land or land administration land governance. And this is I think really different than 10 years ago. However, and this is where I maybe come a bit more critical we must be careful that fit for purpose won't become like a general term or some kind of buzzwords I would say. Of course, everyone wants affordable 10 year security for all people in a short time, but it entails a lot, according to me and lands and lands ten security it is about. It is about data collection about registration data storage maintenance, it's about data dissemination and yeah, the reason why I said fit purpose is at the beginning of the development is that the focus of fit for purpose according to me and what I see in my work is still fit too much on the data collection site. And to make it affordable for everyone in a short time it means, according to me it's finding smart, good enough solutions for every step. And yeah, this is why I also would say do not scale up until all these steps are covered. And I think this is where we are going to talk about during this webinar about scaling up and this is, yeah, I would like to raise. Thanks Christelle. Yeah, I think it's that is absolutely right. In terms of what we are going to unpack in this webinar because it is all about scaling and, you know, while the FFP LA tools are there for the parcel level or you know numbers hundreds of parcels. When we start talking millions, it's where those those governance and institutional issues really have to be thought of early and dealt with early. So thanks for raising that and we will definitely come back to that. Remi you've been sitting there patiently. Can we get your initial insights from your experience is more in the eastern eastern part of Africa. I'm a bit unsure whether I'm hearing remi just connecting. Are you good to go remi. He may have just dropped off for a second. Okay, I remi we're just coming back to you for the first question your initial views on FFP LA. So floor is yours. Yeah. For the president decision. Oh, it is oriented so political. So sad. A global man. I'm a comprehensive. FFP LA. Me so see. He is basis. He is batis. The question of the war. Ah, He didn't come to the securization of the war. I'll travel and system down just a month. A global man. So sad. Monajou. And. Is this just a question. Passage. He know they're not. It's really a question. I see. Viable. With the perspective of the family. Because he is batis. He's an analysis. The holistic. And it's. It's. It's. But he. Direct. Community. A rap. The. You. Disaspect. The. I'm a global man. My. Question. Sir. I. You. You. A. Internet. If you have. The question. Complimentary. Honorable. Is. Yeah, we're all still together. Remi. And if you want to say a little bit more on that, then. More than welcome to. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. Can. Get you. On on. I'm. I'm. On. On yeah.加. On ones. Great. Great. Thank you very much, Remy, and thanks to all the panelists for getting us going. Have a bit of a unanimous panel on. So baseline thoughts on FPLA. Yes, does it work? Yes, but a few mentions of the concerns around scaling with regards to institutional and governance issues. And that's why we're having this webinar because we've been able to show in pilot and demonstrations absolutely for over a decade that FFPLA works. We've got great examples of countries where it works at scale, but we've still got examples of land administration projects where we do struggle to get results even sometimes when so-called FFPLA techniques are being applied. So why is there the difference? Let's now drill down into some more specific questions targeting on each of our panellists and their area of interest and specialty. Israel, I wanna come back to you. You're our designated Younger professional. And obviously working in Nigeria in both training of young land administration practitioners but also a bit in the field with your practice. Are you seeing FFPLA now mainstreamed into the courses in Nigeria and in the region? And are you seeing it practiced more in the field by perhaps not only emerging graduates but also older hands in the land administration sector? Over to you. Yeah, thank you so much, Rohan. I'll say yes, it's an emphatic, yes, that gradually the FFPLA has been mainstreamed into training and practice. And I would like to say also that the concept comes with practical implications at the grassroots level so where it empowers communities and their individuals to secure their own land rights in a cost effective and pragmatic manner. Now the importance of the concept and we continue to grasp 10 year security remains crucial in many parts of the world. More importantly, the successes that has been experienced in various countries like in Rwanda, in Ghana, in Uganda and so many other parts of the world makes it evident that FFPLA is being mainstreamed into practice. For example, in Rwanda, we are 100% coverage of land registration was recorded some years but that's a very great news. That's a good news for the whole concept itself and not just that in Uganda, in Uganda in particular, I personally volunteered in the land registration process in Padel in 2018 during a pilot and that was with the volunteer committees of yours program. And after this time, I am happy to always hear of the good news of how these practices have been upscaled gradually and going into the mainstream of what is now practicable in Uganda as a nation to secure their tenure rather. Now, not just that, even in Ghana, in Ghana, I like the idea of Ghana because like, well, the crystal mentioned it that we shouldn't consider FFPLA as a buzzword. But in Ghana, I like the idea that the name doesn't come like FFPLA, it comes like something digitalization and then, but most importantly, is that the principles of the FFPLA are being used and then it's constructing land registration and it's making tenure security. I mean, it's making people have access to better security of their own tenure. I mean, it's giving them access to a land registration system, they are able to access it better, they are able to, they are short of the process the more and that is what it is. And these things are coming into practice to stay. So I like to also say that there are challenges in transforming from pilots to skilled though, but then with increased capacity building and advocacy and then migration of fit for people's approaches into service delivery. I believe that these challenges will be overcome. So I think I should stop here for now again, Rukhan. Thank you so much. You thanks Israel for explaining how in those various countries you've mentioned, you're seeing it, the concept translated into both education and practice. Let's move back to Virgo. Virgo, you know, Indonesia sometimes very, very humble but it's not without saying that ATR, BPN and Indonesia more generally has achieved something quite remarkable over the last five years. Often, and Israel, you mentioned earlier the case of Rwanda, that's kind of been the story of FFPLA that's been cited over the last decade in terms of that really scaled implementation countrywide coverage using imagery, using grassroots surveys to collect around 10 million parcels in a number of years, which was quite unprecedented comparatively. But Indonesia's kind of gone in a magnitude greater on that, so it's not without its challenges but can you tell us how FFP, I think you already did it earlier, you did tell us how and why FFP LA was adopted but perhaps you can give us a little bit more detail about that story and what's really driven it and some of the outcomes and results you've been seeing over the last five years. Okay, thank you, Rohan. Probably I should inform you that Indonesia is not as lucky as a European country. I just come back from Netherlands and just inform that Netherlands has finished their cadastral in 1803 or 1806. Whole parcel has been surveyed and mapped. In Indonesia, we've been struggling to register the whole land parcel since 1960 since we introduced our land registration. Until 2015, as I mentioned earlier, the registered parcel were only 46 million parcels. The annual progress approximately less than one million parcels per year. So even we don't know what is the total number of the parcel in Indonesia. And we do the estimation. The estimation is around 126 million parcels in Indonesia because in Indonesia we manage our cadastral centralized. So if with the current speed less than one million probably the next 80 million, say the next 80 years we will have our complete land registration in all over Indonesia. So the change actually driven by our new government, our new president who wants to attract investment as much as possible. So we want to raise our rank in every indicator attract the investment indicator, including East of the Wing Business Indicator registering property, every indicator our president push push us to to hire our rank. And in land registration, we need they ask us to do what you call it extra ordinary method. So I think FFP is the right one for us. Put aside the good quality, put aside the good accuracy first. We more focus on the total number. So in 2015, we start with the three million and then the following year, 16, 5 million. And since 2017, we also help by the FFP. The world bank loan and then at it starting that time we call it our project with the FFP land administration. The complete name is systematic complete land registration using the participatory mapping. So we ask everyone, we ask people to help us into we put all our resources, all of our budget and some part of our budget also funded by the world bank. And the progress is with all the efforts. Right now we managed to register 107 million parcels. So 19 millions parcel to go in the next two years. Hopefully we can achieve those target in one or two years. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Pat Fogo. Yeah, it's a really, really remarkable story. And I really encourage people to look into that one, one further how it was done. I think you've mentioned a few good points there. One of the key ones there obviously it being a presidential target. And I think that's what we also saw in the case of Rwanda when it's a high level priority, you get that mobilization of the agency but also the resources to do the kind of work. And then you get the dyno buy in as well if they can see that support. I think another thing you've mentioned there, Pat Fogo which is an interesting one in both your responses is this purpose, the changing purpose. So you've really focused in on let's get the tenure security right first before we worry about other purposes that might be to do with economic development and so forth. And that can then inform the type of technologies and approaches that are being used. So thanks very much for that. Let's go back to Remy. Remy, we've heard a bit from Indonesia there. We've mentioned Rwanda. I guess that in both those cases you might say it's been quite a centralized approach, FFPLA approach if we wanna call it that, quite successful as we've heard. You're working in Burundi and whilst Burundi is obviously a close neighbor to Rwanda the governance context is quite different. So can you let us know how FFPLA is being implemented in your eyes in Burundi? It's practically the challenge of demography and the challenge of displacement. So for reasons of political choice, one of the countries can be more advanced in terms of the other. So let's go back to our relationship with the FFPLA administration. It's true that Rwanda is well-marketed in the last 10,000 years and in Burundi, we're still active on the dimension of much more legality to clarify in terms of the text of Rwanda, the legal dimension. It's much more than that in our focus but also we're focused on the financial security at the local level, the management of centralized data. It's not just about giving funding at the local level but also certain aspects of the management of centralized data around the earth. And more particularly, we're active on the dimension of funding, which is a very important aspect. It's the development of a reliable and financially viable business model. But it has to be around the legal system quite clearly. It has been developed over the last 10,000 years but there's still the Zolodom where the sun that will set on the next level is not visible. We are very low in quality. The legal framework that includes the management of centralized data through the community-based services. But also the funding is managed through several instances, especially decisions, and three ministries are involved in the financial management. There's the Ministry of Agriculture, the Ministry of Justice and the Ministry of the Ministry of the Ministry of the territory. For us, we are now active first to qualify, to finish, to do a good institutional analysis, to ensure that the centralized financial management is supported from the base at the central level, from the local level to the central level. Moreover, it's a centralized management and a management that is entrusted to the community and to the municipality, if I may say. It requires skills to enable this new service. We are also working on technical expertise, which is skills in terms of social media, and skills in terms of infrastructure, but also skills in terms of technology. So, to have a device in terms of expertise, it's capable of supporting this decentralized management. There are other aspects that some call the government in the letter, which is that the community-based financial services give services to other actors, such as microfinances and banks, such as rights, such as conflicts, which are brought to the level of justice, but it's not supported by a legal basis. There, too, and a system of operations that allows them to provide services. There are also other aspects of the gender sensitivity where we start to admit that the name of the financial certificate, if the name of the wives and the wives, it's true that the global framework allows it, but we would like to have a specific framework that can support this. There are also a lot of actors, some actors in the French government and in the society. We also focus on the types of changes and the network of changes for pre-doer aspects, but we also focus on preparing the types of feasibility for the financial information system. And as I said in the introduction, we are already preparing a change visit in terms of Loanda for various advanced states, but they are inspired so that we can make a financial information system but also a financial information system able to be accessible to ordinary citizens in order to trust their technocrats that ordinary citizens can use, but also to respond to the specific issues of the country. Overall, what we are doing and we think that we are not very far from our neighbors and that we will, on the other hand, inspire them to prepare for it quickly. Thanks very much, Remy. I think you touched on a whole range of issues there when it comes to somehow getting FFP, LA activity happening at that local level. And as you've said, historically, land and the governance of that is a local activity in Burundi, but then moving towards and recognizing the real value of the administrative system is when you can also provide some information and some benefits to that central level. And so you've touched on a whole range of aspects, particularly relating to the UNGTIM framework for effective land administration or FALA. Many of those pathways you are raising there that need to be considered. So everything from governance, institutions, legal issues, but also financial aspects, awareness, raising, education and training. So really good coverage of those. Remember, everyone, if you've got questions and they're coming up as the speakers are speaking, we're not taking questions immediately within the first series of questions that I'm asking to the panelists, but you can use the Q&A box, which is down the bottom of your screen and put a question in there. There's already some filling up there and we're definitely gonna come back and revisit those ones in the final half hour or so of this webinar. Christelle, I'm gonna jump over to you. You work with donors and in the Africa region, mainly you're often putting in for projects and tenders and so forth. How much is this term FFPLA or the concepts behind it? How much is it, how much demand is there from the donors? And at the same time, a donor project usually needs to have a beneficiary, a beneficiary country or agency. How much demand is there from the beneficiaries? And have you even seen this changing over time in your role? Yeah, well, what I see in my daily work is that it's demanded by many donors. I mean, the terms of preferences that are provided by the donors, they use this terminology all over the place. This is also why I mentioned earlier that we don't need to... Yeah, it doesn't have to become some kind of buzzwords. Like fit for purpose, land administration solves all our problems, so to say. And what I see in my daily work is that those terms of reference talk a lot about the purposes of land administration, like climate resilience, like conflict management, full and productive employment, all those kind of purposes that a sustainable land administration perfectly can contribute to. But in the end, it all starts with complete up-to-date and reliable data. And getting there, that takes a lot of time and money. This is also what you posed earlier in this webinar. So I think it requires a strong leadership from decision makers, not only from politicians, but also from the chain partners involved in creating that complete and up-to-date land data. And in my opinion, the timeframe of many tender projects and also the available budgets are often still too limited to really establish a system that provides these data. And, okay, there are some larger tenders in terms of budgets and timeframe, so the multi-annual programs. But they, well, they most of the time until like the development of large IT systems of large titling programs, but they do not always cover the whole spectrum of land administration and not the framework of land, of fit for purpose, like the legal part, the institutional part and the spatial part. And also from the beneficiaries side, hey, you asked me the question, is this the same demand there for beneficiaries? What I see also in my daily work is that there are still beneficiaries that ask for a full-fledged land administration system, if I may say like that. And then most of the times in terms of IT systems that have many functionalities and so on, but the data in itself, it's not there. So I would rather say, I would say start with small systems, also IT-wise start in a fit for purpose way, start small and then, yeah, increment over time. Yeah, I'm not sure if this has been changed all over the time, what I do see, and this is, well, I come back to that later in the case of Benin, is that when we started, yeah, the ambition of the government was to have a fully digitized disaster and so on and with great ambitions and you start working on it. And yeah, we all see how, yeah, what it takes to get there. So the, how to say the ambitions, well, do not change over time, but we see that the fit for purpose land administration is adopted more and more. Thanks, Kristal. So, yeah, what we're hearing there is obviously donors on board, beneficiaries demanding it, although still issues like scale of IT systems. And I think that question of the IT system, we wanna try and come back and revisit that a little bit later because essentially FFPLA, when we think about it, it's not so much about the backend storage of data and the manipulation and the development of the IT system, although it is covered in the frameworks if you have a look at the documentation around FFPLA. It's been something more focused on getting that scaled data collection in the field, but it's a really good point, you raise Kristal, if you've got all the data in the world, but no capacity or fit for purpose systems, IT systems in the background, then we see countries running into problems there where the maintenance and sustainability of those systems comes under question. Yeah, sure, jump on the top of that. Because what I meant to say is that that they asked the full-fledged IT system, but the data in it, that lacks. So that is also a problem because you can have a full-fledged system, but if there is no data in it, you can still wonder how, yeah. Do we still, is that fit for purpose? Do you then meet the purpose of land administration? Yeah, no, good question. And thanks for putting those on the table. I think we're gonna have more discussion around that. Let's go again back to Israel. I think I first heard of you, Israel, maybe only a year ago, when you came onto the scene at FIG and revealed this survey or study you'd been conducting on African countries, and you were obviously African. And so you were running a study on the continent going and doing a lot of work in terms of developing that, but also getting it filled in. You've been running that over a number of years. So FFPLA applied in African countries by Africans, and we can be honest on that. The technique, the philosophy did, was developed or created for some of the issues and challenges happening in more developing contexts, although the principles and philosophies pretty much those that we find in any surveying and education thinking and in educational programs, fundamentally. But tell us what you've been finding in that study because I know it's ongoing. What have you found? How is it being perceived? And what's the future holds? Give us your spin. Thank you so much, Rohan. Yeah, you're correct. Myself and a couple of friends in Africa did a survey in the year 2022. It was after Wisdom workshop of the Volunteer Committee of the Soviet program. And then the study did meet some significant or reviews some significant findings. One of such is that, is the fact that there are ineffective and unsustainable approaches to the land that is shown in African countries. I mean, it was obvious. Now, the survey was done such that surveyors, the public, everybody who wanted to fill the questionnaire actually responded to the survey. And it's interesting that the result is coming from the general public and even the professionals that indeed there is an acceptance of the fact that there are ineffective and unsustainable approaches to land that in the situation in many African countries. And then our world is existing systems capture the various types of rights and the population is quite weak. And this calls for a system that is more fit for the purpose of recording the rights and ensuring that the security of people's tenure. You see, I've always loved to ask a question that why should we have approaches that are not fit for purpose in the first place? Because I assume and I always imagine that we should be able to put a round peg in the round hole. So when there are problems like this, I expect that we should be able to have the appropriate solution that addresses such problems. And that is what the fit for purpose approach tends to do. Also from that survey that was conducted at that time, the responses obtained also showed that the fit for purpose approaches to land administration has positively impacted land administration in the African continents. I mean, a majority of those who responded to that survey. I would know when to maybe start reading our statistics, but then I think the topic of that survey of the paper written from Eastern FIG publication is analysis of fit for purpose land demarcation practices in Africa at the emergence of the fit for, I think I got it wrong now. I could paste it in the chat box before the end of the webinar, but I would just like to say that it's built up on the principles of fit for purpose approaches. I mean, the survey used the principles to analyze how land is being administered in various countries in Africa. And we did have responses from Nigeria, of course, where I live myself, from Ghana, from South Africa, from Uganda, from Wanda, from a lot of countries across Africa. And then it reveals some of these things. It also shows that the application of FFKLA approach in African countries varies according to different levels, different levels of technological resources and then capacity, different levels of adoption and different levels in so many spheres. Look at it from any angle. It's not on a particular definition. It's not as if there is something coming and the voters have to accept it the way it is. It's like when it gets to this country, they redefine it in their home way. And which is one thing I so much like, especially when the first principle of the fit for purpose approaches flexibility. So it means that when it comes to your country, you are being able to adapt and then adopt what works best for that society. So also I like to say that the findings suggest that there is need for more research and investments to develop effective sustainable land and national systems in Africa. And when I say investment, I'm talking of, of course, finances one, but then more importantly, it's maybe to look to identify the gaps because this whole thing is not a global practice that there is a particular solution that solves the problem. It is what every local context, we need to now look at what happens in their own environment and then design and approach that solves that problem. So I know again, I'm half-time, Rohan. So I like to stop at this point. Thank you so much. No, thanks, Israel. And I'm very impressed as a young academic, you're both plugging your own paper, which is a good paper. So please put it in the box. And so getting your own paper out there is a very good thing young academics do. And also asking for research funding in the area you're working on. So two box tick there, very good. But more, you know, and that is important, but the, yeah, importantly there, I think your surveys is rather interesting in that, you know, it's revealing a very positive appreciation of FFPLA, which you've already mentioned earlier. But it wasn't that long ago that you could sit within a room of surveyors, even at an international conference, but maybe particularly more at a local conference and have, you know, 90% opposed to some of the aspects of an FFPLA type implementation. So it shows there has been a bit of a seismic shift in thinking about FFPLA as not really a threat to the profession, but perhaps an opportunity for the profession to do more work and better work and be more responsive to society's needs. Okay, let's go back to Pak Vertigo. You know, Indonesia's now got a bit of a track record on its application of FFPLA. And it's interesting to watch from afar in Indonesia is the way, and you've mentioned it a bit already, the FFPLA approach has been changed and evolving over time. So can you give us a little bit of information of what those changes are and why the approach has been changing? Okay, so if I divide the Indonesian registration is the first 55 years, we call it sporadic registration. And since 2015 until 2022, it's the FFP, but we call it it's the mass land registration period. Since this year, we've changed it to systematic complete land registration period. So at the beginning of this project, 2015, as I said, it is not really systematic complete land registration. It's only people driven mass land registration. So before the land owner come to our office and then they pay for the survey, pay for the registration to get the title. Once the project begin, the government pay for all of those things. The government pay for the surveys, the government pay for the land registration. So it's quite successful, people coming and then we managed to have a three, five million per year until eight million per years. But last year, we realized that not all people, actually not all the land owner comes forward, okay? So we changed our approach for the participatory mapping before the land owner participate. Then we realized that we need to survey all of those parcel. So for the participatory perspective, we changed not only the land owners can participate, but also the villagers, the village official, village head. They help us, they assisted us to show them the boundaries, to show them this one owned by whom and something like that. So that's since this year, we managed to survey all the parcel. There is no single hole, there is no single square centimeters left behind starting this year. Because in our previous mass land registration, we forgot to do what do you call it, to integrate between our legacy data with the new incoming data. So in our cadastre, there will be gap over left because it was done in different method, in different time, different projection, different, what do you call it, different reference, something like that. So starting this year, starting this year, we are what we call it integrated systematic complete land registration. What we're doing now, before we have a satellite imagery, satellite imagery, the first five years of the project. Now, UFA mapping has become cheaper in Indonesia. So starting this year, we use UFA mapping, UFA mapping in Indonesia, and then UFA mapping, and we don't only ask the people, we also ask the villager. So every single parcel are surveyed and mapping starting this year. If there, so I also answer the Q&A question for Fatimea about how do we deal with the legacy data with the registered parcel. So what we're doing is we're updating, updating the registered parcel also. Our budget is a quarter of the new incoming. So if I pay 100 for the incoming parcel, new incoming parcel, I pay 25% for updating the registered parcel, the save, the orientation, and also the scale, everything. So it's quite challenging because in Indonesia, certificate of title is sacred. You cannot change the area. If the area is already mentioned, 107 square meters, after the updating, it changed probably more, probably less. Yeah, it's quite challenging to tell our people, to tell our staff, and also to tell the owners that it doesn't really matter, it's just a calculation. But we also updating the, since this year, we also updating the registered parcel also. And why we doing you every map? Before, we're doing the, we have satellite imagery as a base. Now we're doing you every map with the accuracy of 0.5 meters now and resolution 15 centimeters. We put the budget on it, but also we have a collaboration with the startup, with the community. In Indonesia, there is a new startup, yeah? Like a YouTube, but it's YouTube for drone. So people who are doing drone for five hectares, seven hectares, they upload on those, the name is Mapa ID, and I collaborate with them and I get more than one million hectares of drone free, free in Indonesia. And we put our budget for the rest of the area. So since this year, the change is we using the photo map, we using our own budget, our World Bank budget, and also the community. The community result of the, not only the parcel, but also the photo map itself. So before our accuracy stated in our regulation is 0.3, but now our photo map is around 0.5 meters accuracy, but that's okay. That's the gradually improve the accuracy in Indonesia. Okay, thank you. Thanks, Pak Vogo. Yeah, a lot in your statements just there, but I think particularly the embracing of innovation and a sort of problem solving or opportunity taking mentality within the agency allows you to move pretty swiftly and pretty quickly onto opportunities like UAV, which really wasn't a viable or sort of matured option up until five or so years ago. And now you're using that at scale and not only your own in-house imagery capture, but civilian imagery capture because why? We can assess the quality and we can make use of it. So as a halfway approach, why not make use of it? So really some good lessons there in terms of having any culture of innovation within the organization. Let's go back to Pak Vogo. Sorry, I want to thank Pak Vogo and go to Remy. With Burundi, as you've already mentioned, being more decentralized, can you give us a little bit more on how the local, I mean, you talked about sort of the big picture before about needing to marry up the local and the central, but can you drill down a bit more for us in terms of how local committees are supporting the FFPLA process to give us that real, I guess, you know, that real grassroots feel as to how you're getting it done on the ground at that local level? Yes, it's true. Burundi is decentralized from the national level to the local level. There are the countries, there are the provinces, there are the municipalities, and at the lowest, there are the colonies. It's the lowest level of decentralization. And at the head of the colony, there is a colony council that has administrative functions and the population framework. There is a committee of colonel knowledge that helps us a lot, which has functions of arbitrage in terms of limits of borders, of land, of funds, the funds, the limits between the neighbors for the funds. We call them the committee of colonel knowledge. These are the CRC, these are the most active with us. We also have a council that is notable for arbitrage, of conflicts and all the mediation teams. We work a lot more with them, but also I would say that there are committee at the base, more or less informed, who don't have key roles in the foreign administration. We focus on the three. First, the colonel council, which has the capacity, which has the functions of administration, of mobilization, and management of the population, which helps us a lot in mobilization during the process, in mobilization of the population during the process, in the defense administration. We have the committee of colonel knowledge, which has great expertise and good knowledge at the level of the community, and which also helps us a lot in terms of funds, which helps us a lot. This is the most active, which is what we do in the registration and the financial security, because they are always with us to limit the borders and the limits of the land for the neighbors. The notable council, which also has mediation functions, and every time there are meetings, meetings, and every time there are meetings between private details, or private partners who have meetings with the French, this is the notable council which helps us a lot, so we put a lot more into the service and three committees, the committee of colonel knowledge, the committee, the colonel council, but also the notable council, which are a lot more, but three entities which help us a lot in the financial administration and in the financial security. There on the use of these three different, but interrelated committees to help solve those issues, or FFP application, I guess, at that local level. I'm just a bit conscious of time, so I want to still go around for one more, one more round of questions, but there is now quite a lot of open questions in the Q&A panelist, so if you're not speaking panellists and if you could, because some of the questions are quite specific and targeted at some of what you've said, so if you do, if you could just jump onto the Q&A while we go through the next round of questions and if there's any directly attributed to you that you feel comfortable to answer and just by typing, that'd be great. So that's the Q&A box down the bottom screen. Okay, Christelle, going back to you again, we talked about your role, we haven't really spoken specifically in so much detail about Ben In, it's more of a recent case of FFP LA adoption. I'm a bit cautious on how I ask the question because I don't want to say the country showed resistance, but can you sort of explain to us the approach for getting acceptance and then rolling out FFP LA in Ben In? Yes, of course, yeah, because, well, resistance to the FFP approach, I cannot really say that is the case as you mentioned, but yeah, of course, the way to get there, the way to get to meet the objectives of the Ben In's government, that is of course, well, a long path and full with hurdles and challenges, so to say. So yeah, and that of course takes a lot of time and discussion and this is the process where we are currently in. So key to speeding up the land administration process in Ben In is actually, it's to establish a lighter form so of registration, so to say. Yeah, we do it with not establishing an ownership as an absolute right, but to use other verification methods and establish a presumed ownership during the period of data collection. And in a later stage, after the period of data collection, it can be converted into a higher level of vehicle certainty. For example, yeah, the land title is prescribed in the land law. And well, in contrast to the property rights documented by a land title, this presumed ownership that we now establish, it's not absolute and it can be disputed. And yeah, well, actually we can say that it is applicable until a legal procedure decides otherwise. And this possibility for correction in the later stage provides space for a faster and cheaper and less formal approach during the phase of data collection. And this again, this aligns better with political goal of achieving a land registration system that covers the entire country in a relatively short timeframe. So the possibility to register this kind of presumed ownership, this was already regulated by law in 2013, but it was only valid during a transition period of 10 years. And yeah, as we are now 10 years later, this law is not applicable anymore since July this year. And the challenge is now to re-establish the legal regulations, so to say, to make maintenance of this presumed ownership possible again by law. So at this moment, we prepare the legal degrees and they are being composed and now for endorsement at the cabinet. And yeah, I think this is my view, if I may say like that, I think this really must be arranged before further scaling up. If we continue with data collection, then we will create a database with unreliable data. And this, well, this was absolute ego against the debate in his objectives to bring this economic prosperity and to prevent land conflicts. So yeah, actually, and I'm taking it to account the time, the limited time we have for this webinar. I think that is also my general message that I want to repeat, do not scale up and do not invest in scaling up until the maintenance is well established. And I'm talking about the maintenance of a land administration system itself, but even better the data in it. Okay. Thanks, Kristal. I think your points pretty well made and clear and I think it's a good one. Let's, I'm conscious of time too, but I want to quickly go through one last round of questions, as I said, but if I could ask the panelists to be as brief as possible so we can get through as many of the questions as possible. And I can see already some have started to be answered with it, which is excellent. So last round of questions, Israel, start with you. What do you see as the remaining barriers to the use of FFPLA in the Sub-Saharan African countries you've been looking at in your study? Thank you so much, Rohan. According to that study in 2022, hesitancy within the Slovene community, the legal profession and the general community was one of the things that was identified owing to a lack of sufficient advocacy and awareness and involvement of stakeholders. Now, the prime focus was on the serving communities because soldiers need to adapt to change and then leverage available technology. And the requests for perceived accuracies is a major challenge also for the FFPLA and the nutrition approach. So both from the service and organizations, we had the hesitancy was obvious because you prepared some documents and then it's not the regular documents they are familiar with in the country. And then even the organizations will say they don't accept that because it's not typical of a plan that is accepted in certain environments. So these are certain hesitancies that were identified. Aside this particular one, I think a few things, maybe we have some solutions that could help us reduce thought hesitancies which is to advocate more and then to elect the local context. I mean, let the approach be adapted and then adopted by the local concept context rather so that the problem can be holistically solved. That's just what I'm gonna like to end it up. Then I have a few more things here that I would love to see in the course of time. I will just outline, let's say we have capacity building, we have adequate training and possibly including the concept into the curriculum of students such that students now understand that the land attenuation approach needs to be fit for purpose even from the institution. And then lastly, I would like to emphasize on establishing legal and institutional frameworks to back up the technology enabled special environment. It's obvious that the special aspect, the special framework is well advanced but then the institutionally legal that pertains that really talks about the people and what happens in a local context is actually lagging behind and it's dragging the foot off the implementation of FFPLA approaches in sub-Saharan Africa. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks Israel. Virgo, over to you. You've already told us about the most recent innovations happening in Indonesia and UAVs and essentially crowdsourced imagery and so forth. What's on the horizon from in your view in your position for the coming years with regards to FFPLA in Indonesia? Thanks Rohan. As we know, the methodology, the techniques in surveying and mapping actually become cheaper and cheaper, become affordable and affordable. So next year as 2024, we started to put the building in our cadastral. Right now currently our cadastral is only the plot, the parcels only, the polygon. So we will be using the artificial intelligent techniques using the UAV. So probably starting this year, next year, 2024, we will put the building footprint in our FFP in our cadastral map. And don't talk about the accuracy of the footprint as long as we have the footprint of the building, it's okay, that's our policy for the next year. And then we also publish our cadastral map in our website. So you can also take a look at our website, it's here probably, here. Bumi.etr.bpn.guin.id. It's not perfect yet, in some area, there still be overlapping and gap between the new registered parcel and the legacy data, but in certain area, it's already complete and systematic. So you can see our 107 million parcel in this website, Bumi.etrbpn.guin.id. And on those website only, because starting this year, we survey all the parcel, but not all the people get the certificate of title because probably the owner was not there, the owner reluctant to have the title because if you have a title, you have to pay the tax, something like that. And if you transfer some, yeah, some people, few people, few people in Indonesia reluctant, reluctant to have the title. But our policy starting this year, we survey all the parcel. So also in this website, if they change their mind, probably next year or two years, they can come forward and make the, the polygon green, make the green, make the, meaning they approve of their parcel. So they can make approval later. So not all the parcel survey has been approved. So they can approve it later using this website. And then the starting next year also, probably our Kandastar map will be using a terrain. So it will be in a 3D. So we will be prepared for the, for the incoming, incoming years, that two-third of the people also in Indonesia will live in the city. So we will be moving also to the 3D Kandastar once all the parcel Indonesia has been registered, has been surveyed and has been mapped. And lastly, we will also shifting our, our organization. Now probably until the next five to two years, we are organization that collect the data from the people. Later on, we'll be shifting to the data manager, the data manager and information about the land spatial unit in Indonesia, not just 2D, but also 3D. So the people can give us feedback, the people can approve or disapprove. And using that, using that technology, we will do our FFP later on. Okay, thank you. Thanks, Pat, for ago. So the fund never stops in Indonesia and with ATR, BPN it seems. So great to hear those innovations. Remi, one last one for you. And I'll get you to narrow in on, what do you say is the next steps for FFP LA in Burundi? What are you hopeful about? What do you say is the positives on the horizon in that particular country? That one was for you, Remi, I think. Are you still with us? Just the, I'm a bit unsure with. Yeah, you're there. Go, go. In terms of the sector for Burundi, at the level of the French administration, we already have this political will and the work that we do with the local administration to ensure that we have the right to certify through the French sector. We also have the opportunity, the organizations that are active for the French sector. We also have the population of the communities that are very open. And we have this enthusiasm at the level of the communities that see that it is either certified or registered through the French sector. We have challenges that are linked to the lack of quality at the level of legal textiles. We have challenges that are linked in terms of institutional framework of management, but that are more or less advanced in negotiation. But we also have challenges that are linked to the conflict between the territories, the domains and the private territories. But we also have challenges that there is a lot of information for the French that are at the level of the base, at the level of the communities, but that are not easily accessible. So the French information system, having a national database, is still a challenge to overcome. And overall, that's all I can say about success and challenges at the level of the French sector. Thank you very much, Remy. Now, I do have one last question for you, Christelle, but as a good friend, I shouldn't say a good friend in the context of the panel session, I think you made your strongest point and the point you wanted to make in the last round. Is there anything you want to add on to that before I just jump to two participants that I can see online that it would be good to get a word in before we wrap up the session? No, well, if I can repeat it, of course, but I think the message was clear. I can tell you so much more and I can tell the audience so much more about the project in Benin. But, yeah, regarding the time, maybe we can certainly encourage them to take a look at the cadastra website and all the news about the Benin project and other academic papers around that. They cover some of the important points. I shared a link to an article that we recently published in the GIM International Connecting. So, yeah. No, thanks. Thanks, Christelle. So I thanks to all the panelists and we're just, you know, there's obviously we've had any four questions come in and thank you so much for the engagement of all the question answers there. And I can see our panelists have been busy providing answers and they've got through almost half of those. So please do keep going, panelists, if you can see specific ones relating to you. Some of them are very, you know, to be unpacked and we could spend a whole nother webinar on them and maybe that may form part of the Scaling, a responsible scaling series that's going on here with LAN portal. But I did, you know, we've got five minutes left and I can see we've got two panel, well, not panelists, but participants that I hope are on standby to give us their views and their different roles. First one is Simon. Peter, are you there, Simon? I don't know, I don't know if you can hear me. Yeah, I can. It's good to hear from you again. Can you give us a little bit of a quick take on your position currently and how it interacts with the FFPLA concepts and your general views on that? That'd be great. Thanks, Rohan, and thanks for this interesting discussion. So first of all, I want to emphasize that fit for purpose LAN administration is a paradigm shift from the conventional or the traditional way of doing LAN administration or LAN management to this new way of, you know, finding a first-a-way to do it and provide tenancy. And precisely because of this, it's not always a smooth transition. So there are a lot of things involved to have this shift. So from my experience in Uganda, one of the key consideration is to make sure that the government is in the lead or takes the leadership. And this is not always given. Of course, there are countries like Indonesia, the case we just had, and Nepal, where the government quickly, you know, accepts the fit for purpose LAN administration in Uganda, that was not the case. So one of the things we did was, you know, the SOC systems change model. So where you pick an area and together, of course, with government and implement the fit for purpose and show them how this will lead to quicker and better results. And so using this approach, we have been able to progressively show the government what's possible with the fit for purpose LAN administration. And with this, they have now developed a national strategy on how to implement the fit for purpose LAN administration. The remaining challenge in Uganda with fit for purpose LAN administration is resource mobilization. So the LAN sector is not a priority in the overall resource allocation of the country. So the resources that are needed to be able to scale up fit for purpose and provide tenure security within the next 10 years as their strategy says have not yet been found. So one of the things we are doing now is also look at developing a business model because as we know, LAN administration provides revenue for the government. So the government, we are trying to advocate together with our partners in the minister of LANs to the wider government making a case that fit for purpose can actually result into increase in revenue. And therefore making a case for the initial investment that is needed for the fit for purpose to be funded and implemented at national scale. The second point I wanted to make Rohan is to emphasize the importance of gender in both the conceptualization of fit for purpose LAN administration and the implementation of it. So I agree with, I think one of the speakers was emphasizing that more often we focus on the spatial framework and sometimes ignore the social dynamics the cultural context and other important governance elements as well. Also, fit for purpose LAN administration is often implemented in the context where there are certain governance challenges. I mean, the good example is corruption. So if you don't put in place safeguards, it's possible that within the scaling up of fit for purpose and its implementation you could actually scale up some of those negative aspects of LAN administration. So I think it is really important to integrate these governance issues in the design of what's fit for purpose but also involve all key stakeholders. One of the other challenge in the case of Uganda was the professionals, so the LAN servers. And it's really critical to make sure that all stakeholders are on board if fit for purpose LAN administration is to be scaled up. So one of the things we have been doing is the advocacy with the professionals because fit for purpose LAN administration what it does, it changes the role of some of the professionals. So we have been advocating and explaining what is their new role within the fit for purpose LAN administration. And I think that that is also helping a lot. So because of a lot of time I'll stop here for now and over to you. No, great, great. Thanks Simon and Peter. I think you've raised some issues that probably we didn't highlight enough but maybe they'll come up in other webinars around gender and the specific changing role of the surveyor and the professionals involved in LAN administration. Look, we are completely out of time. So big apologies to all those questions that didn't get answered. We've had excellent engagement in the session, excellent attendance. But thank you for posting all those questions. As I said, many of them we've answered but we haven't got quite through them all and haven't been able to get to them in the forum here with our speakers. But I do, as we wrap up, want to say a big thank you to our panelists, Christelle, Virgo, Remy and Israel. You've been brilliant. Thank you for sharing your insights from your own work but putting that on the global stage I guess in showing the relevance of your work in that regard. Thanks also to all our attendees and those of us questions for joining us here today. We really do appreciate your participation and the engagement. And we look forward to seeing you next time in one of our LAN portal webinars. So stay tuned, as always, to the emails and to the website. We'd also like you to take the survey. We want to know how you liked the webinar, what worked, what didn't. We're always looking to improve. So you can take that by clicking the link which I believe Neil has already posted online in the chat. And with that, I would just like to sign off. I wish you all a good morning or good afternoon or good evening and we'll see you next time. Bye for now.