 Headers want almost 800,000 square meters of land in Delta States. And Nigeria is fast becoming a failed state under the APC, says Benrey State Governor Samuel Ottum. Well, this is Plus Politics, I am Mary-Anna Cohn. It's good to have you join us. Well, following the move to ban open grazing of cattle in Delta State, the state chapter of the Cattle Dealers Association have demanded 750,000 square meters for livestock, breeding and markets across the state. However, the state government in a swift reaction said lands for ranching in the state are for sale and advise the dealers to buy for their business. In another development, youths who allege that four persons were killed during the attack in Nimbo community in Enugu state said at least 10 others are still missing. While six sustained various degrees of injuries, they asked the Department of State Services, the DSS, to produce those who were responsible. Well, joining us to discuss this potpour of issues is Usman Baba, he's the National Secretary of Mieti Alla, and we also have Baista Chiku joining us. We also have Anifat Jodhwil joining us via Zoom. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining us. Thank you for having me. Great. I'm going to start with you, Baista Chiku. The thing here is land. And I think you and I have had this conversation before as to who has powers to give land. And, you know, in terms of the case of the ban of open grazing by southern governors, the Mieti Alla and the Castle Breeders Association are demanding, underline the word demand. And I'm asking, is governments under any law compelled to respond or oblige to these Castle Breeders who are asking for land? Because now you're saying that they cannot openly graze. So are you going to offer them land? OK, first thank you for having me. I will start by saying that I think Mieti Alla and the likes are heating up the politics. They are doing that by some of these statements. We all know that by law, all lands within a territory of a state is held untrusted by the governor for the indigents of that state. That is the way it is in accordance with the law. If any of any group, whether Mieti Alla or any group or so, ever owns land for grazing or for any purpose, there are a few ways that one can do that. Number one, you can purchase the land. And the land that you're purchasing must be within the volume or within the number of land or quantity that the law allows you to. The land use act gather a certain number or size of land that the land use act does not allow an individual to even allow the governor to give or locate to an individual. So if any group, whether Mieti Alla or whatever, owns land, there are a few ways. One of the ways is to purchase land. Another way is to secretly talk to the governor to see whether there are a few lands or areas that the governor or the state can look at for certain businesses. It is not to come out on air and say that you need 750,000 square land in Delta State. How many land, how many square meters of land is in Delta State? If we are talking about land, vast land in Nigeria, we should be talking about the north. Nigeria is made up of, I think, 931 or so points, something, four, seven or there about square meters of land. And you're saying that you need 750,000 square meter of land in Delta State. I don't understand. Some of these rhetorics are the ones causing problems. If you want land. There are people that are building private universities everywhere. They don't come on air to tell people to say we need this quantity of land. Even the state government, when the state government wants to build a university or is looking for a land to establish an agricultural example, whatever, they don't come on air to say, to look at a particular ethnic group or a particular area and say in that area, we need you to give us 10,000 or 750 square meters of land. Some of these rhetorics, we should not allow people to make such statements. But could it also be that these Cattle Breeders Association members have been given that feeling? Let's not forget that the AGF of this country appeared on national TV and juxtaposed the fact that I tried to compare, you know, spare part dealers and these cattle breeders. Could it be that they have been given certain information or they've been made to believe that it is the place of the governments in the different states who have banned open grazing to give them access to land and allow them to do their businesses since they are not allowed to openly graze? Could there be some information gap? Yes, we have said that the statement made by the Honorable Attorney General of the Federation was really made in bad text. It was not, I still want to believe that maybe we didn't understand what he meant. But if we look at the statement made contestually, we will say that that statement was made in bad light, there's no way you can imagine the spare parts dealers coming to reverse it and telling the government that we need 750,000 square meters of land and you must provide it. And as such land must have a veterinary clinic, it must have markets, it must have this specification. Where is that done anywhere in the world? That's not how to do it. I have always said it, the way we are overheating this policy, the way we people never has a problem before that people will stand up and make all kinds of statements. If you want land, even if you want much more than that quantity of land, you can approach state government, make proposals, send proposals to state government, send some blue intelligentsia or people that have fast knowledge in that area in agriculture to meet the government and talk with the government. Government will do cost-benefit analysis and see whether the benefit that will accrue to them. But you don't go on air, you make statement like you want or you need 750,000, you could have a sweat, take over the state. I don't like that statement and the fact that government is allowing people to carry on like that or to make all kinds of statements. I do not think that should be allowed in a country. It should not be allowed. You can't come from anywhere. No human being on air, where your right start ends, is where another person's right begins. I can't go to, even in my state, and I tell the governor, I need 750,000 square meters of land and that should be or that must be provided for me. People who are from that state, I can make some statements. All right, let me bring a letter in. You should all condemn and deploy such statements. Such statements has the capacity of inflaming or causing problem in the state. Even if government wants to provide land, even if government is willing to provide, let's say, 5,000 square meters, the rural person, the illiterate, the people that have no fast knowledge in agriculture or on how they market land, once they hear that governor has extended or given a portion of land or portions of land to that group, the conclusion will be 750,000 square meters of land. We don't make such statements. It should not be allowed. All right, let me go to NFA. NFA, you belong to the Civil Society's organization and Delta State has also been a point of sorts. We remember there was a, it could have been a fake, you know, ultimatum that was posted about the governor, you know, a group of people were giving him an ultimatum as to this same issue. But then, I mean, that ultimatum was discarded because, you know, they seem to be a faceless group. But this is a group of people who are cattle breeders in Delta State and they've made their demands clear. In fact, that's why I started by saying on the line the word demand. Now, could it also be that maybe we, the recipients of this information are not understanding where they're coming from? I'm going to, I'm saying this because in, I think, you know, you're in a crybone, there used to be a very famous, I think it was called a goat market. So you had all the trailers, all the, oh, NFA, I think we lost you. But I don't know if we have Mr. Baba on the line so he can speak to us. Yes. So quickly, let Mr. Usman Baba just explain to us what Mieti Alam means because, like I said, in New York, they had a goat market. So all the trailers that brought the cattle, the goats, the yams from the north, they went to that market. And it was on the express. I think it was on Ecotic Ben Erud. Could it be that they're asking for space and then maybe negotiate later for what they want to use the space for and maybe pay for it and we're misconstruing it. Mr. Usman, can you explain to us what you think the cattle rares or the cattle breeders meant by asking the Delta government for space and a market and all of the space they need to, you know, grace their cattle? Hello. Yes, we can hear you, Mr. Baba. Go ahead. Yes, thank you very much for having me. You see, this is one of the things that we have been requesting for all this while because wherever this law is going to be promulgated, we always request there has to be a public hearing where all these stakeholders will be brought to discuss on the issue. So what the Delta State government has done is quite encouraging and it's a welcome development because our members were invited at the public hearing and they have also had their own view for the committee to hear because wherever a law is promulgated, the intention behind every law is to bring harmony in a particular society. So even behind us, as bona fide Nigerians, they deserve some attention wherever they live because they have their constitutional rights to live everywhere in Nigeria, to exist with each and every community in Nigeria and to also be allowed to practice their trade long as there will not be any users to anybody. So all that we are encouraging is this kind of thing. There has to be a sort of a stakeholder meeting before the promulgation of this law. So what the Delta State government has done is a welcome development. Our members were invited, they were there. They have also presented their own issues for the consideration of the House of Assembly. So arising from that was what brought about the request for some peace of mind, at least for their members, for the members, for our members in Delta State to also be considered by the law. Open grazing is something that cannot be practiced even in the northern part of the country in the next 10, 20 years to come because of the growing population of both animals and human beings against the land that doesn't increase. So this calls for an effective planning for farmers and harvest to coexist peacefully. So but now that governments have decided, because they have realized, like you have said, that it's becoming a problem and with the fact that the herders are nomadic in nature and they have to move from place to place. The governments are saying, well, for the health of the cows, for peace between the farmers and the herders, you cannot be openly grazing anymore. You have to, if you must, then you must buy land, pay for it and have your space and do your business. But when you're asking the government to give you a particular land mass for you to do your business, are you asking for that space to pay for or are you asking the government to give it to you because of the ban that they've put, which is also going to stop you from openly grazing? Help us to understand what your demands are. This explanation was contained in the document submitted by our members in Delta State. The document is there. They have presented their request to the House of Assembly for consideration. Whatever it is, the request is for them to also be giving attention to... Well, let me give you some insight into the details of the request. They're saying that they want, they recommend that to practically satisfy having an abattoir, a veterinary clinic. They want a livestock market and administrative office. They want a security post as provided by Section 2B and 2G, Section 2, in their recommendation. They're asking that there should be a market provided for them. They should provide a designated area that shall comprise of a minimum of 30,000 square meters of land. This is what they're asking. They also acknowledge that 5,000 meters mentioned in Section 8, 2A of the recommendation that they put out is only a minimum. So they want a maximum of 8,000. They say it is our modest way, or it's our modest view, that even the minimum of 5,000 square meters of land may not be the best starting point. And this is the explanation. We're quoting them. The explanation there is, this is what we want. This is what we need. This is what we need. I do not see us in the recommendation where they spoke about negotiations as to whether they will pay for it. And I want to, I'm sorry, talk about the spare-part dealers. We have, for example, in River State, there is what they call Ikoku, and it's the long spread of spare-part dealers and all of these people pay for those shops. They're responsible for keeping that area clean and making sure that there's no traffic, even though sometimes there's traffic. So if your association is asking for all of these things, is there room for consideration that they will have to pay for these spaces? Because that's a huge chunk of land. And if you must be given, then there has to be money exchanging hands between the association and the government. Don't you think so? Well, you see, on the issue of Babatua and the market, that one does not need much explanation because wherever there is a market, that market must either be owned by the local government or the state government. And all the local government has the power to collect revenue on each and every market, if it's happening even in the north of the country. Definitely. On Babatua, it's an absolute responsibility of local government or state, depending on the nature of the Babatua, whether it is a modernized, a large Babatua or a small one that can be maintained by the local government. Wherever it is, these things are intended to generate revenue for the local government and they said wherever they are established. It is happening in the north of the country. Babatua has been established for bushes to kill the animals and pay a certain amount of money for maintenance. And these are part of the local government responsibilities and part of the local government sources of revenue. So there's no much quarrel about the market and the Babatua. What is new? Is this issue of grazing areas? If an area is designated by law for grazing, it's now up to the government to decide on what to do. Let me give you an example on what you said when Pireshe was the governor there. We had a similar problem of conflict between farmers and hudders during the era of Pireshe. We went there, we need to get between the farmers and the hudders. So what took place there was a sort of understanding was entered into that the first country from both sides must be punished. If it is a farmer who kills a husband, cow without any reason, he must be made to pay for the cow he kills as he goes to the prison at the same time. And if a hudder allows his cow to stray into somebody's farm and make dispenses, he has to pay for the product that was destroyed by his cow and he will equally go to jail. And what Pireshe did then, he said, he doesn't have grazing results in Kiki, but he has game reserves. So he has allowed all the controlers to go and stay in those game reserves. So where they were deriving their cows. But whoever is staying in a particular game reserve must go and register with the local government by saying 5,000 nera to the local government. At least for the local government to identify the social family or social number of cows is staying in social place. So these types of things, they are simple arrangements that can be made between the government and our members in that state. We are not against any source of revenue. Me, I am from Europe, I'm from Europe, now that I speak to you, I'm speaking to you from Dematuran in Europe, I say right now. Europe, I have recently formulated a law for cattle tax. We are going to begin to collect tax on each and every cattle in Europe, I said. So these are things that can be done through peaceful dialogue and understanding. Because when you designate an area for grazing, it's up to the state government to say, well, others who are living in this area who want to register them, who want to know them for security purposes, who want to know the number of cows they have, who want to know the number of cows they have, because thank you for bringing. So this is an arrangement that can be made between our members and the state government. I hear you. Thank you for bringing that up because I was going to ask you. Now the commission now for information in Delta State responded because like you said, this conversation was between lawmakers in the state and the Castle Breeders Association. Now I'm going to quote the information commissioner directly. His name is Charles Santiago. He did say that the states, well, he said that new people were talking to just lawmakers, but as a state, they have made it very clear that anybody who wants to do ranching should buy land and start their ranch. So the government is saying that demand for space for land has to be accompanied by money. And that's why I asked you earlier on and you're saying that it's government's responsibility, but they're saying, and I'm quoting Mr. Charles Aniagu who was the information commissioner of Delta State, he's saying, if you want to ranch in our state, you must buy the land for you to be able to ranch. And we're talking about 8,000 square meters, 8,000. It's a lot of land, but also another issue that was raised was the fact that there are people who are rogue herders within and among you in a different state, whether it's in the north or in the south. And it should not be the responsibility of Mieti Allah to fish out the people who are hiding under the guise of being herders and committing atrocities, especially going into farmland and destroying the farms of people's farms. And sometimes people get into altercations and somebody ends up dying. Should the Mieti Allah not be doing whatever it takes to make sure that they clear their name so that they're not affiliated or associated with these people who are carrying out this dastardly acts? See, as an association, Mieti Allah is a social association. Mieti Allah is never a violent association. I will never be a violent association. Mieti Allah does not condone criminality or never support criminality under what able form. Mieti Allah represents those peaceful herders who go around doing their peaceful catering business. We don't represent any criminals. We don't represent any bandit or whatsoever. This is a peaceful association. This is an association that has eminent the Sultan of Sokoto, as the German bot of philosophy from Mieti Allah, a Catholic leader association of Nigeria. So we are a peaceful association. So what you are saying now is you are telling me the statement of a commission of information of Delta State while we are tracking of a law that is about to be promulgated by the Delta State House of Assembly. The Delta State House of Assembly is the legislative arm of Delta State government while the commission of information is a bureaucracy speaking from the point of view of the executive. But the power to give you land lies within the state government. I'm sorry, Mr. Baba, the powers to give you allocated land is, I mean, the box stops at the table of the state government and the executive is in charge of that, not the lawmakers. So whether you like it or not, they're part of this conversation. You really can't rule them out, can you? So what we are supposed to do is to wait and see the outcome of the law that is going to be promulgated by the lawmakers. But the duty of it is stakeholders are supposed to be invited for family hearing and they are invited in Delta State for family hearing. Their views have been submitted to the House of Assembly for consideration. So that is all we require. And we hope the House of Assembly as the legislative arm of government will see the personalists as bona fide citizens who have rights and privilege to reside and for it to be anywhere in this country. Okay, I'm going to come back to you because you haven't answered the other question I asked, but NFA Goddardial is back. We lost him for a second due to back connection. NFA, you've heard what Mr. Usman Baba has said about the issue in Delta. He's saying that it's the duty of the legislature to come up with whatever law. But of course all the, I think about 17 governors in the South had decided that they were going to stand by the ban on open grazing. And I have spoken about what the commissioner for information in the state has said about this situation and the demands that are being made by the Cattle Rarers Association. But I did ask him a question that he did not answer as to fishing out the bad eggs. Four people have been allegedly said to be killed in Enugu, 10 are still missing. And you know, they are still tagging it as, you know, herdsmen attacking farmers in Enugu state. And I did ask a question, how do we, for example, if you were a group of Ocata riders and they say Ocata riders are killing people, should that not be not just the job of security or praises, but Ocata riders association to take it upon themselves to make sure that they fish out this bad eggs So, am I speaking out of term here, Neffa? Yeah, good evening once again. I'm sure you're learning clearly, are you? Can you hear me? And Neffa, I think that we're having a serious connection problem with you. So, I'm going to have to let you go and come back in. But let me go to Baista Chuku. Baista Chuku, can you help me? Can you speak on what I just asked them, Neffa, if you can? Yes, I think when an art is given an association, an association that has a preponderance of people that are alleged to be involved in that crime, that association has a duty to ensure that those crimes or activities that tends or that gives bad image to that association, it has a duty to organize its group in a manner and in a way that will show that that association is not the one promoting that illegal or criminal activities. There is nothing wrong. Like if you go to some states like in those states, you will see that all legally authorized or cattle rider in those states has a verse. That verse contains number. That number is already known. That number was issued to them in conjunction with your cattle riders. So, the Neete Ala also has a duty in this instance because all the things that have been happening across the states. Most times the people end up ascribing those things to them. So, Neete Ala should come out with a possible best way of identifying their members and by so doing, they would have also assist or assisted government in cobing the excesses of those criminal headers that are ravaging communities. Then again, secondly too, I heard the interaction what you're asking regarding the position of the executive in that state. I think no matter how anybody sees it, you cannot wish away the executive. The legislative arm only has a duty to make law. And that law has to be laws that will help in the smooth governing of that particular state. It's, you know, my problem with the tone of this request is that the world wants, the world requests, the world needs is attached to it. I know that over time, like if a group of people or a community visit the governor or the president, the tone of requests always will be government, please establish this kind of, establish a grazing site or a grazing reserve. Government establish a ranch so that anybody, whether the person is from belongs to Miedi Ala or belongs to another association or a new association that will come on stream, will also have right to graze in that particular land. What I'm calling about or what I don't like is this exclusivity in the whole demand and the whole want, exclusivity to the extent that give us, give us, give Miedi Ala or give data state leaders association. That's what I worry with because if the state government comes up and say we are establishing an agricultural reserve or a grazing reserve, it means that government has established or will establish that for the benefit of everybody. Not to hand over that to 8,000 square meters of land. There are some local areas in Nigeria that are not up to 8,000 square meters of land. Well, almost out of time. Then you go by 8,000 square meters of land to a particular group. Well, almost out of time. No, I don't subscribe to that. All right, well, quickly let's go back to Mr. Osman Baba in closing. I would really like for you to answer the question that I asked, how does Miedi Ala intend to fish out these criminal acts within them or people who are under the guise of castle breeders or herdsmen and perpetrating acts of violence? Like I said, Enugu, there's an outrage right now in Enugu, as to people who have been killed. Four, 10 are still missing. And they are saying these people are herders. So really you can't say that it's bad to crop or lump everybody in one category. But unfortunately, these people are disguised as your people. What do you intend to do to clay your good name? You see, madam, we are never against anything that can bring peace to any state. We are never against it at all. We are never against, if the government can allow collaborators or members to take count of those who are residing in each and every state at least for the purpose of security. You see, as I told you earlier, we don't represent criminals. We are a peaceful association. We don't condemn criminals who don't like it. What people don't know because of the negative media profiling that has been consistent for over three, five years, profiling negatively the person or it's unable to fly as a criminal. That is why the problem is, while the flannies are also victims of these crimes. For how many times have you been hearing bandits attacking a particular community cutting away with thousands of, wrestling of thousands of cows, taking away thousands of cows with them? These cows belong to personalities. Wherever cows are stolen, whether in the south or in the northern part of the country. Ninety-five percent cows in this country are owned by the flannies. They are owned by the personalities owners of the cows in this country. Today we have lost over three million cows as a result of petrification. Just imagine how many families were rendered for as a result of this criminality. So what do you intend to do to put an end to it? By kidnapping and banning it. So, but because of this negative profiling, people today associate any form of crime to the husband, whether it is done by the husband or not, and criminality doesn't discriminate. And how do you intend to clay your name? I'm coming to your question. I'm coming to your question. So we are never against, just like the Okada date, we are never against this type of thing. But you will never do this in isolation. You have to seek the consent of the settlement before you come and do such a thing. But because of this media profiling that has profiled the posturalist negatively in each and every part of the south, no governor will even give you attention to come and do this thing. And until when the whole situation is clearly understood that even the posturalists who are moving, being the illegitimate business, are also victims of criminality, are also victims of kidnappers, are also victims of petro-vaculants, are also victims of bandits. Well, our members are also victims, in fact, they are at the receiving end of all these viruses that are taking place today in the country. Well, we have to go, unfortunately, sounds like you really don't know what you can do to change the situation. Of course, we also know that there's cattle rustling and the issue of your people being victimized, but one would really wonder what you have planned to clear all of this stuff. But I want to thank you, Usman Baba. He's of the Mieti Alla Cattle Breeders Association. We also had Baista Obinachuku, who joined us live from Port Hackett. And we also had Nefa Jodriel, who is of the CSO, unfortunately. Bad Connection didn't let us hear anything he had to say. Thank you gentlemen for being part of the conversation. We appreciate it. Thank you for having us. Well, we'll take a short break. Thank you all for being part of the conversation. When we return, we will discuss the better state governor's position that Nigeria is fast becoming a failed state. Stay with us.