 I hope you guys enjoyed lunch, had some good networking, opportunities, had some good chats. I'm glad to see the crowd back. This is kind of weird because we've already talked to her, everybody knows her but I'm going to introduce her anyways. Suzanne manages Drupal projects and provides technical guidance to the development team at Evolving Web. The Drupal shop she co-founded 10 years ago in Montreal, Canada. She's involved in all steps of the consulting process from meeting with clients and reviewing wireframes to selecting modules and doing code reviews. She also provides in-depth Drupal training, obviously, and has provided training for a wide range of clients including Georgia Tech, McGill, LaValle University, Princeton University Press, Art Gallery of Ontario, and Chicago Botanic Garden, as well as numerous government departments and agencies. She presents regularly at Drupal Con, Drupal Camps, about front-end development and user experience quite often, and, some big news, she was recently elected the newest board member at large of the Drupal Association. So, welcome Suzanne to the stage. Thanks Matt. Is the red button already been pushed? Yes. Amazing. It's good being a featured speaker, you don't have to do these little things. Okay. Well, thanks everyone for sticking around for day two of Drupal North. Is everyone having a good time so far? Okay, so today I'm going to be talking about the Drupal experience. Pat already introduced me so I can skip this slide. Just a little call-out about Evolving Web. We are a Drupal agency based in Montreal and we are hiring project managers and developers. If you're interested at all, please come and chat with me. So what I'm going to be talking about today is how people approach Drupal, how people go through a journey of starting to interact with Drupal and with the Drupal community. And the reason that I kind of started to think about this topic is because I've said that there's anxiety, concerns in the Drupal community about Drupal adoption. There's concerns about getting, you know, maybe people losing interest in the Drupal project or people using other platforms instead of Drupal. And so you might have noticed in your own practice that people are starting to use maybe WordPress for certain projects or other content management systems. Maybe you looked at Drupal.org. You look at these statistics but you might see, oh, like, people aren't starting to use Drupal 8. There's still a lot of use of Drupal 6 and 7, but maybe adoption is not as fast as we would have thought. And so that's sort of what triggered me to do this presentation. And I think it's a good kind of self-reflection for those of us in the Drupal community because all of us here at this Drupal event, you know, we are members of the Drupal community. And it's a good idea to think through how newcomers approach Drupal, how people see Drupal when they're looking at it for the first time. And maybe this can help us kind of improve the user experience for people. Some of us might wonder why is Drupal adoption a challenge? Why do organizations maybe not use Drupal? Because we, everyone loves Drupal, right? What are the problems? And so I want to think about this sort of from a design thinking perspective. Who here has heard of design thinking? Design thinking. So if you're more on the UX side, you might have heard of design thinking or if you've ever developed a product or something and you've thought about, like, what is my product going to do? You might have used some design thinking. And even if you don't know the terminology, you've probably done this before when you're developing something new, whether it's a website or something else. So design thinking is a process of coming up with solutions and kind of stepping back before you do that, before you just dive in and create. And so the first step in design thinking is empathizing. And so when we're thinking through how people experience Drupal, I think the first thing that we need to do is this empathy step and really think through, like, who is considering using Drupal? Who is coming to the Drupal community? And what are these people like? What's their background? What are they going through? And this is a step we can do before we start trying to define a better experience for people before we start trying to come up with any solutions. What do I mean by the Drupal experience? Like, what is that? So think first, like, what's the Drupal experience? So to me, the Drupal, there's so many answers to this question because there's just so many different types of people who come to Drupal, right? So the Drupal experience for someone who's a developer versus someone who's designing interfaces for Drupal or somebody who's a content editor in Drupal, or maybe it's the marketing manager who's actually selecting Drupal. These experiences are quite different. Some of us might think of the Drupal experience as being, like, going and looking up which hook to use or which class to implement or maybe trying to figure out how to create a theme for Drupal 8 and how to use Twig. Like, this might be the experience that we're thinking of if we're more technical, but there are all kinds of other people involved in the Drupal community and in Drupal projects. So if you look at all the people involved in Drupal, all the people, many of whom are represented in this room, right? You might identify with some of these roles, maybe several of these roles. So we can use, in terms of design thinking, in terms of starting to empathize with people, we can look to create some personas. We can look to start thinking about, okay, what types of people are there in the Drupal community and what might make their experience better? So personas allow us to kind of think outside our own experience and to consider other people. And then we can kind of use those to think through the problem from other perspectives. So this is a useful tool when you're doing any kind of design thinking and I think we can start thinking about this for Drupal pretty easily. The problem with personas is they kind of lead to generalizations. So if you go back to this picture and you start to think, okay, these are the personas. If you think about actual people that you know and Drupal, maybe other people in this room, they might fall into many of these categories and even two people who are both project managers and two people who are front-end developers, they might have really different experiences too because a front-end developer might be very knowledgeable about content management systems or they might be, you know, actually brand new to the concept of using an open source system like Drupal. So any two people who fall into one of these personas might actually have a quite different way of experiencing Drupal. So what I want to focus on is not just personas but user journeys. So user journeys are beneficial because they allow us to think through not just where somebody is right now but where they're trying to go. So somebody might be coming to the Drupal community, they might be going to Drupal.org and they might be in one place now like maybe we consider them a newbie but maybe they're trying to be a developer. Maybe they're just trying to evaluate Drupal and compare it to other products. So we can use user journeys to think through what the person is trying to accomplish and what they're actually going through. And Pat mentioned that I do a lot of Drupal training. So the great thing about Drupal training is I get to meet a lot of people who are coming to the Drupal community for the first time who are experiencing Drupal for the first time. Maybe they're installing Drupal there, hitting that first page and they come from all these different backgrounds. And usually when I do a training I go around the room and ask everyone what's your background? What do you do? What are you trying to learn? And people usually have this kind of one-word answer. Like they'll say one of these labels here they'll say, yeah, I'm a developer. I'm a designer. Oh, I'm just a webmaster or something like this. But it never captures the full picture. So just because somebody has this one-word answer like, oh, I do site building it doesn't usually capture what they're trying to learn, what they're trying to do with Drupal. It's not really a full picture. And it sometimes takes a few days for somebody to express more like, oh, this is actually my background. I'm quite experienced as a developer and this is where I'm trying to go. I'm trying to learn how to do this innovative thing with Drupal. Or maybe it's a project manager, but somebody who has the potential to really learn a lot about the inside of how Drupal works. Or maybe it's somebody evaluating Drupal but they are kind of trying to get a technical background so that they can make a more informed decision. So I go and I work with a lot of these groups of people who are brand new to Drupal and I get to kind of see more of the user journey. And sometimes it's quite a small group so you really get to know how people are learning Drupal and what their goals are. So I want you to think back now to when you first encountered Drupal. So maybe close your eyes, think about the first time you heard the word Drupal or the first time that you thought, oh, I should try out this Drupal thing. So maybe it was the Drupal login page. Someone told you, oh, go edit a piece of content on the site and you were like, oh, what is this back end thing? Oh, this is called Drupal. What is Drupal? Maybe it was a Drupal camp here in Toronto. Maybe it was the install page when you go to install Drupal, someone's like, oh, you should go install a new site. So all these different, people have all these different kind of first experiences. And so maybe your user journey was one of these. These are just some common ones. So maybe you were picking a content management system. Maybe you were actually trying to do something really ambitious with Drupal. I know when I've heard a lot in the last couple days is people say, oh, yeah, I have a huge Drupal site that I'm helping run, but I don't actually know how to build a Drupal site from scratch. So that's a really common user journey as someone's thrown into the middle of a big Drupal site and they might understand a lot of the specifics of that site but not really know some basic things about Drupal. So user journeys, these are just some examples. There's lots of other ones. So I'm just going to walk through a couple user journeys that I find are quite common and I'm going to talk about some actual Drupal people that I've met to kind of help us empathize. So Carolina is actually trained as an ecologist. So she's a scientist who's really interested in data and in science communication. And she heard about Drupal because she was trying to help an organization with a site that they were working on. She had some background in like HTML but she didn't really know much about Drupal. And the first thing that she did is she went to a Drupal camp. So I met her at Drupal Camp, New Jersey earlier this year. And she actually has a job where she can use Drupal. Like she's been assigned this role where she's working on the website. And she's able to learn a lot on her own. She's got enough of a technical background she can go and figure out some of the things about Drupal. But one of her big challenges is just figuring out how does she get the website online. So she heard about Drupal. She went to this Drupal camp. She's working on this nonprofit website. But her big blocker is more in terms of how do I get my website actually deployed. So her journey looks something like this. Like she's learning all about Drupal. She's very enthusiastic. But she hits this blocker. How do I get my website online? And for her, this could be the end of her journey, right? It could be like, oh, I tried Drupal. It seemed good. But somehow I wasn't able to deploy it because I didn't have the technical background to do that. And so this is, I think, a really common blocker for people because you can be quite a Drupal expert and maybe there's Drupal experts in the room who know all kinds of things about how to create themes and innovate on creating modules that do this and that. But actually, the DevOps part, maybe that's not something that you know how to do. And for Carolina, this as a one-person kind of Drupal operation at her nonprofit, this could prevent her from being successful with Drupal. Another user journey. So Sam is like an administrator. He's just starting to use Drupal. He studied design in school. He ended up working in a communications department at a university. So I know there's probably a bunch of university people here. And like a lot of people who use Drupal, he doesn't have a computer science background or anything. He works on a web team. And he's doing administration updates on a few Drupal sites. He's maintaining like a website for a faculty. And he's trying to put one of the Drupal 7 sites into Drupal 8. So he's trying to do this upgrade. And he's learned a lot about Drupal. I mean, I think a lot of universities are great hubs of knowledge. I know Joyce was talking about this from Miguel yesterday for Drupal because Drupal is so commonly used at universities and universities tend to have a lot of sites and different people involved in the web team. So he's able to become quite proficient at using Drupal. He did get an agency help him upgrade to Drupal 8. But now it's his responsibility to maintain the site. And so some of you might be in this situation as well. Like you have somebody help you build a new site but you're the one responsible for doing the maintenance. And so for Sam, the blocker, because he has a lot of support around him, he's able to get his site deployed, no problem. But it's the development workflow that's a challenge for Sam. So he hasn't been trained in how to actually get changes to the site into his production environment. So he knows he has a development version maybe he can work on, but he doesn't know how that can be connected to the production version. So this might, you know, it's maybe not going to block Sam from launching his site. His site's already in production, it's already up and running. But it might prevent him from having an effective development workflow. So it might be really hard for him to make changes and maybe he's going to lose some of his work. He hasn't used Git before. And so for him doing configuration management in Drupal 8 is a big challenge. Persona number three or user journey number three, we have Gina. So Gina is a developer. She has programming experience. And when she started working at her job a few years ago, it's in an IT department and the website is currently running on SharePoint. And her manager decided to use Drupal. So her manager somehow heard about Drupal and decided this is the way to go. We're going to move to open source. We're going to improve, you know, we think Drupal is going to provide an improved content management experience. And so she went ahead and researched it and installed it and is now building a site. And so Gina's a really fast learner and she has developed her experience. So for her learning Drupal seems pretty natural at first. Like she understands how it works in terms of the database and how things fit together. But she's a bit stuck on the terminology. So because she has so much experience, you know, when she hears words like nodes and modules and blocks, she's not quite sure sometimes how to do things the Drupal way. So she's trying to build up this site and sometimes she just gets lost in these details. And she's impatient too because she has some knowledge so she feels like she should be able to learn this very quickly. So she's been tasked with building the company Internet. And when she starts building the theme, she's not quite sure how to do it. So she's looking in terms of, you know, when she's building the templates and fitting everything together with blocks and layouts and regions. And she's just a little bit confused. So this is Gina's kind of pain point here. She's able to do so much with Drupal but when she's looking up, you know, how to do things when she gets stuck, she just gets lost on the terminology. Like what's the difference between a block and a view? What am I actually trying to do to get my site built? Final user journey. So we have Chris. So Chris is a marketing director. So he's not so much on the site building side or the developer side, but he's the one maybe selecting the content management system. And he's the one who's probably going to have to do some of the content updating. So because he's in marketing, maybe he'll want to be the one in the site editing some of the key content messages through Drupal. So he has a marketing background. He's evaluating Drupal and he went to a Drupal event. So he could be here in the room right now watching and seeing should I use Drupal for my project. And he managed to install Drupal on his laptop at the event. So this is like great. He came to the event. He's like, oh, yeah, I'm going to get my hands dirty. I'm going to start installing Drupal. So he gets it all installed and then he hits that screen. So you all know the screen, right? You go in, you install Drupal and then you have this blue banner at the top and it says welcome to your site. And he looks at it and he's like, well, this doesn't look like something that I can use to put my marketing message online. Like how do I actually get all my nice images that I've developed and all this great content? Like how do I put this all together? And he doesn't know what to do next. And so this might be the end of Chris's user journey because maybe he'll just become frustrated and not really be able to evaluate Drupal. He's comparing it to other platforms, which seem to do more out of the box. So thinking through these other user journeys, we might be able to empathize with these people. We might know people like this. We might be people like this. So this is going to help us figure out what are the pain points in people's experience with Drupal. And so you can use my examples. You can probably think of others. But this is going to help us define problems with the Drupal experience, problems with how people get into Drupal and maybe things that are preventing Drupal adoption. And the things that I want to point out in these user journeys are some highlights and some gaps. So first of all, the highlights. There are a lot of great things in people's experience of Drupal. And these are things that we should be really happy about. So I think for a lot of people, going to a Drupal con or a camp or a summit like this is really a highlight. It allows people to learn. People have these great moments when they figure things out with Drupal. I see it a lot in training. It's amazing when you figure out that Drupal is this tool that can do something that you've been trying to do for a long time. Also, the Drupal community I find is very helpful if you know where to look. So if you're in the Drupal Slack and you're going and looking for help, sometimes people have great experiences with this. Also, I find a lot of new Drupalers are actually able to help other people with their problems. So a lot of the user journeys we talked about today, these are people who have experience. They're people who are technical. And even though they're new to Drupal, they might be able to help other people with their problems. So being part of the Drupal community means that we can help other people even if we're new. So this is a huge thing that makes people feel like they're part of the community. Launching your site is often a highlight. Contributing for the first time, like if you've been to a first-time contributor code sprint, this is often a really important part of the user journey when you realize that you can actually go and make Drupal better. What are the gaps? So these are the things I pointed out for the user journey. So things like having a terminology overload, too many terms that are new, too many pieces of jargon that are specific to Drupal that just aren't familiar to you. So this can be a huge blocker and prevent people from going further with Drupal. Setting up a development environment or figuring out a workflow, often this is something where on another hosted platform, people might not have to figure out a development workflow. They might not have to set up a local environment and now with Drupal they have to do it and that might just be the end of their journey right there. Security updates, especially when they seem like big emergencies, fires that we have to put out, these are huge blockers for people. And then figuring out the Drupal way because sometimes you're looking for the way to do something in Drupal and there's 10 different answers and this can be a huge blocker. And I think the key thing to remember when we're looking at pain points in the Drupal experience and any user experience really is that when people have a gap, when people feel like there's some kind of blocker for them, something that they don't understand, this is a huge source of anxiety. So, you know, it's one thing to have problems with figuring out what development workflow is best for your website. But if you think that you're the only one with this problem and there's no clear solution and you should just give up and you're not technical enough to figure it out, that causes a lot of anxiety for people. If you think that something's hard and other people have already figured this out and you can't figure it out, sometimes that's just going to turn you off completely. So I think the real problem is not that there's pain points, it's more that the pain points cause anxiety and then people just give up on the solution altogether. So if Carolina doesn't see a way to get her site online, she might start thinking this is way harder than using WordPress.com, I should just switch to that. Security updates are too hard. This whole Drupal saying is not for me. You know, Sam might give up because he can't figure out how to get his development workflow working and it just seems too complicated for what he actually needs. And Gina, you know, maybe she's having a lot of anxiety around the fact that she doesn't see clear solutions for Drupal like she did for other platforms she's more familiar with. So that just might make her think that Drupal is just too hard a solution and too complicated for what they need. And Chris especially, since he's sort of in a decision maker role, he might not just give up on Drupal himself, but he might say, oh, Drupal's not right for our organization. You know, I tried it out, I installed it and it didn't do what I thought it would. So after we've defined some of these pain points, you know, and for us, like, maybe we have some of these pain points ourselves or maybe we see colleagues with these pain points or maybe we see people around us in this room who we've talked to today who are having some of these problems. So whichever problems seem to resonate with you the most, we can start to think about ideas about how to improve the experience and how to either fill in these gaps for people or educate people or just change the user journey or facilitate people's user journey, right? So there's lots of ways that we can fill in these gaps. So you might be thinking, oh, yeah, but I thought that there was already, I thought people were already fixing this problem. You know, there's people who do that in the Drupal community. I've heard about all these initiatives going on. So maybe you really clued into the Drupal community and you've heard about all these things. So for those of you who haven't, I'll just run through some of the stuff that's going on to improve Drupal experience that's really exciting. So out of the box initiative, who here has heard of the out of the box initiative? Oh, not that many. Who has installed Drupal really recently? Like the latest version of Drupal, yeah? So you might have noticed there is this new profile, install profile when you're installing Drupal in Mami, and it's going to provide a Drupal that actually looks like a site that has a nice scene, that has content, sample content, that has a lot more configuration and that people might be able to use to evaluate Drupal much more easily. So this is an initiative that has been in the works for a while and is kind of being wrapped up at Drupal Con Nashville. And so the idea is just to make it easier for people to see what Drupal can do to see the potential. Another initiative that's underway is the admin UI initiative, who's here heard of the admin UI initiative. So this is an initiative that has different, there's different aspects to it. One aspect is adding in some more modernized JavaScript for the admin UI. And there's also work being done to improve the user experience for content editors and just make the admin UI look a little bit more modern. There's also an initiative or at least an issue on Drupal.org to allow for core updates through the user interface. So right now you can go into your Drupal site and you can update modules and things, but you can't actually update Drupal core. So there's work in place being done on that. And the idea is to just make it easier for people who aren't actually accessing the code base all the time and aren't able to easily run updates through the command line to make those updates right through the UI. So there'll be a whole range of sites that right now aren't getting their security updates applied in a timely way that would benefit from this. There's also plans and you can read more about this. I have a link here to the Drupal.org page, I believe, that Drupal upgrades in the future will be easier. So who here has heard about this? Drupal 8 to 9. It's going to be a piece of cake, right? Yeah, nervous laughter. So the idea is that right now, upgrading from Drupal 7 to Drupal 8, basically you're rebuilding your site, you have to do all this work. If you want to, you can use the migrate module to migrate your content over, but basically it's not easy at all. It's not something that just happens like that. And when we look at other projects like WordPress that have backwards compatibility, they may be able to keep sites in WordPress from version to version because that upgrade path is much smoother. So there's plans to improve on this and to make upgrades easier. And the way that that will be done is by having, how to explain it in a very high level way, to have changes to APIs happen in a way that you would see changes in modules happen in minor versions of Drupal, and then eventually APIs that are no longer available would be degraded kind of slowly. So you wouldn't just have this one thing where all of a sudden you lose all this functionality that you used to have in Drupal 8. The idea is that it will happen over time and so modules will evolve to stay up to date. So this obviously means that there's more work on the plates of module maintainers, but the idea is that it will just make any major release in Drupal a smaller change. And then there's also a lot of other initiatives. So if you hadn't heard of these things like out of the box initiative, admin UI initiative, there are a whole bunch of initiatives that you can find out about on the Drupal.org website if you just want to learn all about what's going on with Drupal, what's the latest and greatest. So yes, there's work being done, but the question maybe you should ask yourself is what can I do? Because we are all part of the Drupal experience. We're part of the Drupal experience we're here at this Drupal Summit. And so for Drupal newbies, the Drupal experience is us here in this room right now. We're giving the people who are new their welcome to Drupal. And so there's things that you can do just in your day-to-day, depending on how you're involved and what your role is. So some things that I think we can do, some takeaways for us. So first of all, be honest, be upfront about the gaps in pain points in user journey. So I mentioned that if there's gaps that people have in Drupal, in their Drupal journey and pain points, this causes anxiety. But if we're all honest and we talk about, oh yeah, when I was learning this, this was really hard. Or this, I had this experience and it took me a long time to figure out how my development workflow should be or I had to make this decision about how to deploy my site and this is how it went. So if we talk about these challenges that we faced, this is really going to help newcomers because they're going to see that we are empathizing with them. And when we talk to newcomers, this includes newcomers to the Drupal community, but also I think it includes like our clients if we're working for clients or our new colleagues. We should be honest about things that are tricky with Drupal. We shouldn't be painting, you know, kind of whitewashing this over. Community participation. We're already all here at the Drupal summit, which is amazing. So Drupal community participation is important, having this vibrant community for new people. Staying involved in your local community, going to meetups and sharing what you've learned. This is all great. There's lots of people doing that here today speaking and just chatting with your neighbors, your fellow Drupalers. And then another way to be involved, if you haven't joined the Drupal Slack, there is a Slack for Drupal. So if you're already using Slack for work or for fun or other things that you're involved in, join the Drupal Slack. Just add it on to your Slack and you can stay involved that way. So even if you don't have time to go to meetups or you don't like going to events, although you're all here on Saturday, so I think you all love going to events. But if you don't feel like it, you can always just go on the Drupal Slack and that is a really valuable thing to get involved in. A couple other things. There's a UX study that I'm working on for Drupal trying to get input about the content editor experience for Drupal and we've done a survey to get some input from content editors and now we're trying to take that information and do some user testing. This is a really great way to improve the experience, especially for those people who are evaluating Drupal or people who are on the content editor side. And so if this is something that's interesting to you, you can help us out. You can get involved by conducting the user testing and there's other ways to get involved too. And if you're a content editor, you can fill out a survey and that will actually help improve the experience for other people in that role. Our initiative, another thing that's going on right now is this promote Drupal fund. There's work being done to promote Drupal more to help people like marketing directors evaluate Drupal. And so if this is interesting to you, if you are a marketing minded person or you like writing content, you can volunteer for this. In this initiative, you can volunteer your time and you can also donate to this campaign and the idea is to help consolidate efforts to promote Drupal to new markets. So these are some ways that we can start to improve the Drupal experience. But I think we also need to make sure we're doing the first steps to empathize with others to think about the problems that people have when they're using Drupal for the first time or experiencing the community for the first time. We need to think about solutions that we can come up with in our own day-to-day work. And then as a community, we can improve this together. It's kind of an iterative thing. It's something that we need to work on as we participate in Drupal at whatever level we participate. So for some of us, we're developers. For some of us, we're project managers. Some of us are designers. But some of us are more in that marketing position. We all interact with Drupal in different ways. We need to think about the other people in our community and we need to improve the experience for everyone. So I hope this gave you something to think about. And I also just want to give a shout out to all of you because I think just again, by being here at this camp and I know some of you are really involved in the community, I think we're all contributing to a better experience. Thank you very much. So I don't think this is a talk where people have a lot of questions. But I really encourage any comments or any ideas or if this made you think of something or if you know of other ways that people are improving experience. Yes? I'm just wondering if you're like a new work member at Drupal Station. Do you know already maybe some work map or some time for this Promote Drupal initiative to bring the really experienced guy for marketing in DPR. And there was also some $100,000 to hire this person. And do you know what is the purpose of this initiative? Yeah, great question. So the question was about the Promote Drupal campaign and what the status is, what's being done. So there was actually a blog post put out recently that $75,000 has been raised for this campaign. And so the blog post kind of outlined the next steps, the parameters of the promotion that's going to happen. And I can send you a link to that. I don't have all the outline of what it is in my head at the moment. But yeah, it's kicking off. And part of that work is to really reach out to specific people in specific positions and certain roles. So it's... 75%? Yeah, it's kicking off now. Anything else? Yeah, Joyce? Is there a skill set that... Oh, great. Yeah, great question. So the question is about what skill set people could improve or what skill set people are missing when they're trying to learn Drupal. I think DevOps is a huge piece there that's often missing. So sometimes people will learn, even for a simple Drupal site, you can learn how to do the site building, you can learn how to do the theming. This is often within somebody's comfort zone, but often it's doing the command line, things for your site, things like installing Composer, installing Drash, getting everything like that put together, having your development environment. That's often a huge thing that's missing for somebody who's a little less technical, even though they might have the skills to build a whole site, customize the look and feel, create a simple module. So that's the thing I think I see most often. Yeah? And what is your experience when talking to newcomers like now for Drupal 8 version and about five years ago for newcomers for Drupal 7? Like what is the feedback? Is it easier now to start at Drupal 8? Oh, great question. So do people find Drupal 8 easier or harder than Drupal 7? It really depends on the person. So again, you get different journeys, different kind of personas between developers. So some developers have a background where they've learned about object-oriented programming. Maybe they know symphony. So they find Drupal 8 much more fits in with the patterns that they're used to, whereas it tends to be developers who maybe have learned other content management systems, maybe other, like maybe they were using Drupal 6. They're going to be more comfortable with Drupal 7 and they're going to find Drupal 8 a huge paradigm shift. So I find it just depends on the background of the people. And sometimes people come into a training and at first they think, oh, Drupal works this way? I don't want to use this tool. And it takes them some time to kind of get used to the Drupal way to do certain things. But that's true of Drupal 7 and Drupal 8. Yeah? In your diagram about design thinking, you start with empathy and then go on to define. I was just curious, how do you know what to empathize with if you don't define it first? Oh, yeah, good question. I think this is a kind of iterative process. So I think we look at the people around us and we empathize with them and try and figure out what. Like when I look at define here, I'm thinking of the types of problems that people are having. So trying to define the problem. So I'm taking it as a given that we're trying to improve Drupal. So I'm looking at empathizing with people who use Drupal. But obviously this is really broad. Like I took a really broad look at it here. For example, the promote Drupal campaign is really focusing on a specific experience with Drupal. So they've kind of narrowed that down and said we should empathize more with people selecting a content management system and then taking the process from there. Oh, yes, Jen. I'm curious to know if the user tests the initiative or Drupal. Oh, yeah, what is this user initiative? So the initiative that I was talking about is to help, I mean, the idea is to give some input to the work that's being done to improve the admin UI for Drupal. So rather than just saying, oh, this admin UI is better because we think it's better, we're trying to get some more data from people actually using Drupal. And so this survey that's been done is just asking people about, asking content editors about how they use Drupal. And then that is being used to develop a script for user testing that will be conducted so we'll actually watch people do these tasks in Drupal. And then the plan, which is kind of ambitious is to compare that to other platforms. So to say, okay, this is how you do these five tasks in Drupal versus Squarespace versus WordPress and then how do people do those tasks? What do they find easier? How can we use that to improve Drupal? So if you want to get involved, I will point you towards the initiative page. You can join the Slack channel on the Drupal Slack and I will specifically invite you and make sure that you can help us in time because we need... Is there a timeline? Oh, well, it's Drupal initiative. Yeah, the idea is to get feedback for the work that's being done on the admin UI, so we're trying to get something in the next month, some results, so that that can be put into the next round of designs for the new UI. Okay, thanks for all your questions. Thanks for listening and I hope you enjoy the rest of the Drupal Nord.